Americans May Not Be 'Sold' On National Health Care

[Swamp Fox]

The countries who are having the greatest success at solving these problems are the ones with universal healthcare. They are keeping the costs down by keeping everyone as healthy as possible. Preventative care is a big cost saving. They end up with a healthy populace and a cost saving. Why in the hell would we ignore these facts just because some of you like to browbeat the federal government?

So, why dfon't you move to one of those countries and take all of your friends who want national healthcare with you?

Oh, I forgot, all of those people with no healthcare are the ones sneaking into the United States for a better way of life and don't want to go home.

 

[Truthmatters]

Thanks for the history lecture, Professor. I am aware of the Founding Fathers and their ideas for federal government. I am also aware that the Founding Fathers considered the federal government as the engine for dealing with the foreign powers and providing for national defense. I wasn't aware of any of the Founding Fathers thinking that a national health care system should be in the purview of the federal government.



America was founded on the principles of personal responsibility. I am responsible for me and mine, you are responsible for you and yours. To take money from me to support you goes against all of the principles this country was founded on. No one is denied medical treatment in this country, whether they are insured or not. If you desire to have national healthcare, why don't you move to one of those countries whose program is so successful and quit trying to rob me of my hard earned money.

And having seen the federal government in action up close and personal, you do not want them to be in charge of anything you value.

They left us a system in which we could deside what we needed as the times changed.


Maybe you misunderstand what universal means. There are many ways of doing it which is why se study all the systems which are working and then develop our own. If everyone is getting health are then no one is getting screwed. This about the fact that you will no longer be paying for the increased costs of healthcare due the the last resort emergency care costs increases.


You have seen first hand the imperfections of government abuse. Do you think there is no abuse in the system as it is?

Be real, no system is without flaws. The government is subject to the same abuses any system is. Go to a private hospital and talk to the people who have seen its abuses. Patient dumping , people who will die because their insurance is calling a perfectly proven method experimental by their insurance Co.

 

[nibor]

OK Then.

We have estamblished that medicare was a program created because the open market was failing to serve the aged polulace who lived on a fixed income and could not afford medical care at a ration of 7 in 8.

This meant we had a vast population of elderly who had NO health care at all.
Now this may be fine for some third world country but having elderly people dying and sick all over everyones town kinda got to people so America sought a solution.

We now have a situation where insurance companies dont want to insure the sick and only want to insure the healthy. If you are concerned about only profit and dont give a rats ass about people getting any needed care then they are doing the smart thing. You only insure the people who are not going to need a Dr. That way you get payed and dont have to pay out. Big profits. In the meantime people who cant get their healthcare any way else are crowding emergency care fascilities and bringing up the cost of healthcare.

So it kinda works out that the only people who are getting care are those who dont need any or those who have a shit load of money. It will continue to get worse as our population ages.

The countries who are having the greatest success at solving these problems are the ones with universal healthcare. They are keeping the costs down by keeping everyone as healthy as possible. Preventative care is a big cost saving. They end up with a healthy populace and a cost saving. Why in the hell would we ignore these facts just because some of you like to browbeat the federal government?

Brow beat the federal gubment...................heavens no, brow beat the creators of red and blue people...................oh surely not.............brow beat blackhole creators and divisionists for personal gain..........hell no.

After all they only care about you and your families welfare.............at your expense and the unity levels of our nation while usurping power for your own good!!!!!!!

 

[Truthmatters]

So, why dfon't you move to one of those countries and take all of your friends who want national healthcare with you?

Oh, I forgot, all of those people with no healthcare are the ones sneaking into the United States for a better way of life and don't want to go home.

Why would I move? I will just stay here and help this country be again the greatest country with the greatest healthcare like it once was.

Those people you speak of are not the only ones without healthcare.

So this kinda shows you really dont want to discuss the real issues and how we can improve this country you just want to say we cant improve.


When the facts are discussed in an open and intelligent way you have nothing but insults and taunts left. This is why the American people will realize the reality once the real issues come to light and that we will end up with universal healthcare.

 

[Foxfyre]

Of course you're missing a portion of the population OUTSIDE corporate headquarters who can't AFFORD 900.00 A FUCKING MONTH FOR REAL HEALTHCARE.......................WHO DO NOT CHOOSE NOT TO HAVE IT...........

For far less than $900 you can buy decent private healthcare coverage almost anywhere by accepting a good sized deductible (which most people can afford), co-insurance after a ceiling is reached, and perhaps catastrophic coverage on down the line should that be necessary for a really serious illness.

You might have to fork over $50 at the doctor's office to get your sore throat looked at and $20 for the prescribed antibiotic at the pharmacy, but this is something we should all be willing to do anyway. We don't even blink having to pay for routine repairs and maintenance on our automobiles; we should be willing to pay for that on our bodies as well.

In fact if everybody approached health insurance as they look at car insurance, and went back to paying for those doctors visits and routine prescriptions as we once did before the government got involved, we would see healthcare costs and the cost of reasonable healthcare insurance drastically come down. If the government takes it over and gives the illusion of healthcare being freek, however, I think we will see the system almost immediately severely overloaded and stressed as you see in most countries with socialized medicine. And that will inevitably reduce the quality of care for everybody.

 

[Truthmatters]

wrong!


Go actually look at the healthcare in other countries.

They have a much better system than we have.

Drop your preconseptions and actually go look.

 

[Truthmatters]

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

lets start with the facts people.

BTW I was wrong we are 37th.

here you go.

 

[Gunny]

You know Gunny on this I absolutely can't agree with you.................your conservative top knot is too tight..................YOU CAN'T EQUATE THE SCENARIO OR WHAT..................where the fuck do people come off railing people with no health insurance and automaticly equate that with lazy people looking for a hand out...................

If you cannot understand the simple, logical point to my post, there isn't much I can do for you.

I did not ONCE rail against people who do not have healthcare insurance.

Oh, and where the fuck I come off is ... I'll think and say whatever the fuck I want.

Perhaps YOU should do a little reading of more than one post in one thread before running thy suck about that which you apparently know nothing?

 

[Gunny]

How very sad.

We have the most expensive health care in the world and are about 20th for care now I think.

Many other western countries have proven that universal healthcare is far cheaper and provides better care.

I find it really sad the Americans just seem to think that other countries are just better than us at delivering universal healthcare and that if we tried to do it we would fuck it all up.

I personally think we could do it even better than other countries because we could study their systems and combine the best elements and make the best system in the world.

We could save money and have a healthier populace or we can just keep the same system and get shittier health care than the rest of the modern world and spend more than every on esle.

Try again. Universal health care is only cheap for those who don't have to pay for it, and the care is mediocre at best.

That you think the consumer is going to save money is a joke. The only ones that will be saving any money are those that are currently uninsured. The rest of us will have to foot the bill for them and STILL pay for the healthcare we want tht isn't provided down at the Free Clinic.

 

[nibor]

For far less than $900 you can buy decent private healthcare coverage almost anywhere by accepting a good sized deductible (which most people can afford), co-insurance after a ceiling is reached, and perhaps catastrophic coverage on down the line should that be necessary for a really serious illness.

You might have to fork over $50 at the doctor's office to get your sore throat looked at and $20 for the prescribed antibiotic at the pharmacy, but this is something we should all be willing to do anyway. We don't even blink having to pay for routine repairs and maintenance on our automobiles; we should be willing to pay for that on our bodies as well.

In fact if everybody approached health insurance as they look at car insurance, and went back to paying for those doctors visits and routine prescriptions as we once did before the government got involved, we would see healthcare costs and the cost of reasonable healthcare insurance drastically come down. If the government takes it over and gives the illusion of healthcare being freek, however, I think we will see the system almost immediately severely overloaded and stressed as you see in most countries with socialized medicine. And that will inevitably reduce the quality of care for everybody.

Foxy the insurance industry IS a major part of the problem, so insurance, co-coverage and and bit players add to the complexity and paper mountain, not detract from it..........you do realize that the concept of insurance was created by organized crime...................

I pay ALL my medical expenses out of pocket...................which is becoming unbearable.................I do not seek emergancy treatment ever unless I'm on the floor and transported by emergancy personel, which I've been.

The medical industry has created the brainwashed notion of every mother taking their kids to the emergancy room for a freakin sore throat, because they keep everyone in fear for their health, which in a very big way also creates a problem that they actually can't handle, over crowding at everyone's expense...............

 

[Gunny]

Ok zip this guys pod he's done.....................I see no viable representation WHEN IT MATTERS................all I see is thousand dollar per plate lap dancing turn coat waffle artists that may swallow now and then while getting NOTHING DONE..............let alone reform ANYTHING................

Really? What is it that YOU have offered in this thread besides criticism of those who won't follow blindly down the socialist path?

Do you even know anything about universal health care besides the fact you obviously think taxpayers should foot your bill? Or do you just talk shit about those that actually earn their ways through life who for good reason don't want to pay for you to underachieve but get propped up at the achiever level?

 

[Gunny]

Foxy the insurance industry IS a major part of the problem, so insurance, co-coverage and and bit players add to the complexity and paper mountain, not detract from it..........you do realize that the concept of insurance was created by organized crime...................

I pay ALL my medical expenses out of pocket...................which is becoming unbearable.................I do not seek emergancy treatment ever unless I'm on the floor and transported by emergancy personel, which I've been.

The medical industry has created the brainwashed notion of every mother taking their kids to the emergancy room for a freakin sore throat, because they keep everyone in fear for their health, which in a very big way also creates a problem that they actually can't handle, over crowding at everyone's expense...............

The insurance goes up every time some uninsured person is given health care anyway. The insured have to foot the bill. The uninsured have, in fact, created their own undoing.

 

[nibor]

Really? What is it that YOU have offered in this thread besides criticism of those who won't follow blindly down the socialist path?

Do you even know anything about universal health care besides the fact you obviously think taxpayers should foot your bill? Or do you just talk shit about those that actually earn their ways through life who for good reason don't want to pay for you to underachieve but get propped up at the achiever level?

NO ONE FOOTS MY BILL or pays for me Gunny AND YOU HAVE NO CLUE OF MY LIFE'S ACHIEVEMENT..............so lambaste like you have a paper asshole!


I don't trust the people pushing the issue...............and why should I......... ?

 

[Foxfyre]

Foxy the insurance industry IS a major part of the problem, so insurance, co-coverage and and bit players add to the complexity and paper mountain, not detract from it..........you do realize that the concept of insurance was created by organized crime...................

I pay ALL my medical expenses out of pocket...................which is becoming unbearable.................I do not seek emergancy treatment ever unless I'm on the floor and transported by emergancy personel, which I've been.

The medical industry has created the brainwashed notion of every mother taking their kids to the emergancy room for a freakin sore throat, because they keep everyone in fear for their health, which in a very big way also creates a problem that they actually can't handle, over crowding at everyone's expense...............

Oh for heavens sake, please educate yourself before spouting this kind of nonsense. The medical industry is in business to make a profit or at least cover expenses just like every other industry in a free market system. It responds to the law of supply and demand as does every other industry in a free market system. Private insurance is screwed up mostly by government involvement/interference, liberal court orders, and reluctance of politicians to effect necessary tort reform in our litigious society.

As for organized crime inventing insurance, if that is true they must have had organized crime back in Hammurabi's day because the earliest references to concepts of insurance date back to the Babylonian empire more than 2000 years BC and we have had various forms of insurance ever since.

 

[nibor]

Really? What is it that YOU have offered in this thread besides criticism of those who won't follow blindly down the socialist path?

Do you even know anything about universal health care besides the fact you obviously think taxpayers should foot your bill? Or do you just talk shit about those that actually earn their ways through life who for good reason don't want to pay for you to underachieve but get propped up at the achiever level?

Now your top knot is cutting off your reason...................let me tell you sonny, I've been physically disabled for sixteen years, which is why i can't afford health insurance because of my pre-existing condition.

I was a fairly accomplished musician, a steel worker until the industry was stolen, a truck driver and heavy equipment operator until my disability, I COLLECT NO SSI, EVEN THOUGH I PAID INTO THE FUCKING SYSTEM FOR OVER TWENTY YEARS BUT AM DISALLOWED FROM IT WHEN I NEED IT THE MOST.........................

I became a fucking farmer and opened a fucking sporting goods store ON MY FUCKING LAND SINCE MY DISABILITY to help support my family so stick your fucking self righteousness up your ass too.................

 

[Gunny]

NO ONE FOOTS MY BILL or pays for me Gunny AND YOU HAVE NO CLUE OF MY LIFE'S ACHIEVEMENT..............so lambaste like you have a paper asshole!


I don't trust the people pushing the issue...............and why should I......... ?

Don't like people making assumptive accusations? Don't dish 'em out.

You don't trust which people pushing the issue? The ones trying to shove universal healthcare down the taxpayers' throats?

Or the taxpayers objecting to having to foot the bill for everyone?

 

[nibor]

Oh for heavens sake, please educate yourself before spouting this kind of nonsense. The medical industry is in business to make a profit or at least cover expenses just like every other industry in a free market system. It responds to the law of supply and demand as does every other industry in a free market system. Private insurance is screwed up mostly by government involvement/interference, liberal court orders, and reluctance of politicians to effect necessary tort reform in our litigious society.

As for organized crime inventing insurance, if that is true they must have had organized crime back in Hammurabi's day because the earliest references to concepts of insurance date back to the Babylonian empire more than 2000 years BC and we have had various forms of insurance ever since.

THERE WAS NO ACTUAL INSURANCE.....................just a common goal to keep people healthy.......get real!!!!!!

 

[Gunny]

Now your top knot is cutting off your reason...................let me tell you sonny, I've been physically disabled for sixteen years, which is why i can't afford health insurance because of my pre-existing condition. .

For your edification: my head is shaved. No topknot. You'll have to try a different one.

Now before flapping off at the gums again, go to users online and click on my ID. Then click on find all posts by GunnyL. Then read my response to rayboyusmc on this very topic in a different thread. It was from this morning so it won't be hard to find, and it might clear up the misconception you appear to be having.

Or ..

In short, feel free to assume on my behalf that unless I specifically state otherwise, I differentiate between those who need and those who abuse the system. In a conversation that addresses this issue in general, I speak in general, and it is to the abusers I address my comments.

So consider it a foregone conclusion that I have never stated, never thought, and never will think that those who truly need should not be provided for. That, IMO, is social irresponsibility.

Hope that clarifies my stance for ya.

I was a fairly accomplished musician, a steel worker until the industry was stolen, a truck driver and heavy equipment operator until my disability, I COLLECT NO SSI, EVEN THOUGH i PAID INTO THE FUCKING SYSTEM FOR OVER TWENTY YEARS BUT AM DISALLOWED FROM IT WHEN I NEED IT THE MOST.........................

I became a fucking farmer and opened a fucking sporting goods store ON MY FUCKING LAND SINCE MY DISABILITY to help support my family so stick your fucking self righteousness up your ass to................

Far from being self-righteous, it is my opinion that the system is broken, and it is THAT which needs fixing, not more money tossed at it.

FYI, my wife recently had her spine fused. When where she worked found out the operation was coming, the let her go for some other reason.

I've paid into the system for as long or longer than you -- 32 years to be exact -- and guess what? She can't get unemployment because you can't get unemployment if you are physically unable to work. She can't get social security because it isn't a permanent disability.

The basic problem here is we are honest taxpayers pumping our money into the system and when we finally need the system we were honest about it instead of lying like others do so we aren't getting squat out of it.

So guess who's savings are going up in smoke as we speak? Perhaps you should consider sticking YOUR self-righteousness where the sun doesn't shine?

 

[nibor]

For your edification: my head is shaved. No topknot. You'll have to try a different one.

Now before flapping off at the gums again, go to users online and click on my ID. Then click on find all posts by GunnyL. Then read my response to rayboyusmc on this very topic in a different thread. It was from this morning so it won't be hard to find, and it might clear up the misconception you appear to be having.

Or ..

In short, feel free to assume on my behalf that unless I specifically state otherwise, I differentiate between those who need and those who abuse the system. In a conversation that addresses this issue in general, I speak in general, and it is to the abusers I address my comments.

So consider it a foregone conclusion that I have never stated, never thought, and never will think that those who truly need should not be provided for. That, IMO, is social irresponsibility.

Hope that clarifies my stance for ya.



Far from being self-righteous, it is my opinion that the system is broken, and it is THAT which needs fixing, not more money tossed at it.

FYI, my wife recently had her spine fused. When where she worked found out the operation was coming, the let her go for some other reason.

I've paid into the system for as long or longer than you -- 32 years to be exact -- and guess what? She can't get unemployment because you can't get unemployment if you are physically unable to work. She can't get social security because it isn't a permanent disability.

The basic problem here is we are honest taxpayers pumping our money into the system and when we finally need the system we were honest about it instead of lying like others do so we aren't getting squat out of it.

So guess who's savings are going up in smoke as we speak? Perhaps you should consider sticking YOUR self-righteousness where the sun doesn't shine?

UNEMPLOYMENT................I don't need no stinking unemployment...........I am permanently disabled, my fucking intestines, ALL of them, are on the outside of my body cavity under my skin from a colostomy 16 years ago, I have no recourse and I can't get fixed unless other technologies are developed for inoperable hernias...............DON'T GET SICK........................!

 

[Gunny]

UNEMPLOYMENT................I don't need no stinking unemployment...........I am permanently disabled, my fucking intestines, ALL of them, are on the outside of my body cavity under my skin from a colostomy 16 years ago...............DON'T GET SICK........................!

I'm a retired Marine. Getting sick is not my problem, even though I now pay for what I was supposed to get free for life. Nothing like erosion of benefits.

I wasn't saying YOU needed unemployment. My point was that I can understand how you think a system that you pay into is supposed to be there for you and it turns out it's only there for those who know how to abuse it correctly.

On a personal note ... how come you can't social security disability if you're permanently disabled? I don't understand that ....