American Culture - Great? Or Gone to Crap?

[Foxfyre]

Do you like the current American culture?

Some of us were discussing how society seems to have changed.

People used to dress up to go on the train or a commercial flight or to go to church. Now folks show up at these places looking like refugees from a reprobate convention.

People used to mostly carry their trash in their vehicles or on their persons and properly dispose of it. Now they seem to think nothing of throwing it out wherever if they are fairly secure that they won't be seen littering. What caused the change?

People used to exhibit certain social courtesies such as tipping hats, men stood up when a lady entered a room, a gentleman always offered the lady a seat when all were full, and everybody offered the older person a seat. Now people, especially children, rush to take the empty seats and there seems to be no manners involved anymore.

People used to discipline themselves in what language they used around women, around children, around older people, or in various settings. And as a people we generally agreed on what was suitable fare for family or prime time and what was off limits. Not so much any more.

People used to be considerate of others in public settings and loud talking and rude behaviors were considered inappropriate. Now it is often hard to have a normal conversation in a restaurant due to all the racket; people are talking loudly on their cell phones as if nobody else was around; kids cruise through neighborhoods with their woofers thumping, etc.

And yet we have become hypersensitive and offended by certain words or expressions or attitudes and soundly condemn people for speech or conduct that previous generations wouldn't have reacted to at all.

If this thread generates any interest, I'm sure others will think of more examples.

Why has it changed? Or has it changed?

Good thing? Bad thing?

 

[Oddball]

Less that is great, more that is crap.

Casual has devolved into crude.

 

[Foxfyre]

The crudity certainly does seem to be a sign of our times as reflected in language, movies, television, music, and reading material, etc.

But casual is more than that. People who are dressed up behave differently, more civilly maybe, than those dressed down. That seems to apply at all ages at least for children who are old enough to have developed self consciousness on up. Makes a good argument for dress codes huh?

At the same time I sometimes appreciate being able to not have to get all dressed up to go to church and am glad that we can welcome all regardless of appearance. But I sometimes wonder if we haven't lost something in the process too.

 

[Oddball]

Well, I've noticed that people who dress to the occasion get treated vastly differently.

For example, when I've had traffic tickets, I show up on the court date (when possible) rather than just eating the fine and points...The very few people like myself who bother to put on a pair of casual pants and a shirt with buttons on it, get treated markedly different than those who just shuffle in wearing grubby jeans, a tee shirt with some advertising on it and flip-flops....The staggering thing to me is that the Judge has to tell these plug-stupid people to remove their ball caps in the courtroom....The Judge and court clerks look at me as someone who can bother themself to appear clean and dressed for the occasion, and I definitely get treated better....So, it looks like we do get points for plain old school common courtesy and due respect in certain venues.

 

[High_Gravity]

I think it depends where you live, in the South people still hold the doors open for women, say yes sir, yes ma'am, etc. Don't really see it anywhere else though.

 

[Foxfyre]

I think it depends where you live, in the South people still hold the doors open for women, say yes sir, yes ma'am, etc. Don't really see it anywhere else though.

There is probably somethng to that too. I for instance am in a culture where it just isn't done that much. I still appreciate those, men and women, who show the courtesy of holding a door open, especially when you have your hands full. And I really appreciate a younger person offering me a seat though it is so uncommon any more that I feel guilty taking it.

Then again, it is a sign of the times when our more militant feminist types get their noses out of joint if a gentleman goes out of his way to open a door for them, etc. They resent being acknowledged as women but then get their noses even more out of joint if others use gender specific politically incorrect language around them.

 

[Oddball]

I think it depends where you live, in the South people still hold the doors open for women, say yes sir, yes ma'am, etc. Don't really see it anywhere else though.

That happens out in the rural intermountan west a lot more so than in the urban areas as well.

 

[Montrovant]

There are good and bad aspects.

I find less formality a good thing, but it does often get taken too far. There's casual, then there's grubby.

I'm not a big fan of chivalry, unless women actually WANT to be less than equal. I consider it a hypocrisy that people ignore. I hold open doors for men and women both.

Also on the subject of differences between men and women, I think formal clothing is another instance that bothers me and makes me feel more sympathetic to current trends. Why is it that women are allowed a huge range of choices in formal, 'dressed-up' clothing, but men only get a suit and tie? If I had more options for appropriate dress, I might feel more inclined to accept it.

I also wonder if, in the past you are speaking of in your OP, if the older generations of that time didn't feel the same way. If they thought that society had gone away from the important social conventions of THEIR youths.

On the other hand, I look at kids who wear their pants around their knees and just shake my head. Ignoring the fashion part of it, it's so damned impractical! PC has gone wild in a lot of instances. It's almost as though people are trying to be the polite adults of the past but have forgotten how to go about it.

I consider our current culture a very mixed bag.

 

[High_Gravity]

I think it depends where you live, in the South people still hold the doors open for women, say yes sir, yes ma'am, etc. Don't really see it anywhere else though.

There is probably somethng to that too. I for instance am in a culture where it just isn't done that much. I still appreciate those, men and women, who show the courtesy of holding a door open, especially when you have your hands full. And I really appreciate a younger person offering me a seat though it is so uncommon any more that I feel guilty taking it.

Then again, it is a sign of the times when our more militant feminist types get their noses out of joint if a gentleman goes out of his way to open a door for them, etc. They resent being acknowledged as women but then get their noses even more out of joint if others use gender specific politically incorrect language around them.

Another thing that effects this is bad parenting imo, more people are poor parents than before and don't teach their kids to be respectful so you see more rude people as a result, and I've seen this across all the color lines too btw.

 

[Oddball]

There are good and bad aspects.

I find less formality a good thing, but it does often get taken too far. There's casual, then there's grubby.

I'm not a big fan of chivalry, unless women actually WANT to be less than equal. I consider it a hypocrisy that people ignore. I hold open doors for men and women both.

Also on the subject of differences between men and women, I think formal clothing is another instance that bothers me and makes me feel more sympathetic to current trends. Why is it that women are allowed a huge range of choices in formal, 'dressed-up' clothing, but men only get a suit and tie? If I had more options for appropriate dress, I might feel more inclined to accept it.

I hear ya there.....Even so, I've also found that if you show up in a business-like situation (i.e. meeting with a homeowner selling a FSBO) in a suit and tie, you get treated far more seriously than if you look like you're more ready to play a round of golf.

I also wonder if, in the past you are speaking of in your OP, if the older generations of that time didn't feel the same way. If they thought that society had gone away from the important social conventions of THEIR youths.

I can only imagine what classy people like Orson Wells or Cary Grant might have to say about the schlubby appearance of people like Michel Moore Brad Pitt...Same goes for the Rat Pack or Wayne Newton versus just about any other stage entertainers of today.

 

[hoosier88]

Yah, US popular culture has a lot to answer for. But it was always a mass-based critter, & so reflected popular opinion. There's still a high culture in the US - the opera & symphonies still perform. & there's PBS & History Channel & public libraries & colleges & universities, that tend to operate in the middlebrow part of the spectrum.

& then there's Here comes Honey Boo Boo, Tots & Tiaras, the reality shows. There's something for everyone, which is one of the advantages of an overheated commercial media.

The problem I see is that as ratings drive TV, radio, movies, newspapers - the quality shows & books are going under. It's just a commercial fact of life - if producing quality costs just as much as producing a salable product, the salable product will grow to fill as much of the market as it can.

 

[Foxfyre]

Well now that is interesting. I don't know for sure what age range Oddball falls into but figure he is older than Montro or HG but is quite a bit younger than me. But Montro and HG are both in what I consider the 'younger generation' though both are obviously mature enough to have thought about this stuff. Both out of the teenage period for sure.

But the interesting thing is that we definitely have a multi-generational representation here in this small group and yet seem to get where each other are coming from on this topic.

However, one difference is in perspective of formal dress. Montro sees it as discriminatory that men aren't allowed as much variety as women. While I have always envied men who know exactly how to dress and what to wear and can wear the same tux or suit to every occasion they attend in a year's time and nobody would even think about it other than the guys look properly attired. And if two guys look like carbon copies of each other, nobody even notices, much less cares. But if a woman wears the same dress too often, it is considered unseemly--is that the only dress she has?????--and she is much more likely to be judged on her appearance than the guy is. And it is much more difficult to choose what to wear. And to be wearing the same dress as another woman at almost any occasion is a faux pas.

 

[peach174]

I have noticed in the last 20 years or so, that many don't have pride in their jobs any longer.
Most want to do as little as they can possibly get away with.
I would say that a lot has gone down the tubes, especially in the larger cities.
Too many everywhere just don't care about anything at all anymore.

 

[Oddball]

Yah, US popular culture has a lot to answer for. But it was always a mass-based critter, & so reflected popular opinion. There's still a high culture in the US - the opera & symphonies still perform. & there's PBS & History Channel & public libraries & colleges & universities, that tend to operate in the middlebrow part of the spectrum.

& then there's Here comes Honey Boo Boo, Tots & Tiaras, the reality shows. There's something for everyone, which is one of the advantages of an overheated commercial media.

The problem I see is that as ratings drive TV, radio, movies, newspapers - the quality shows & books are going under. It's just a commercial fact of life - if producing quality costs just as much as producing a salable product, the salable product will grow to fill as much of the market as it can.

But even as recently as 20 years ago, the middlebrow part of the population bothered to at least put on some clean duds, maybe even including a shirt with a collar, when going to a halfway decent restaurant or club.

Nowadays, you're lucky if you can get people to wash every day.

 

[Foxfyre]

Yah, US popular culture has a lot to answer for. But it was always a mass-based critter, & so reflected popular opinion. There's still a high culture in the US - the opera & symphonies still perform. & there's PBS & History Channel & public libraries & colleges & universities, that tend to operate in the middlebrow part of the spectrum.

& then there's Here comes Honey Boo Boo, Tots & Tiaras, the reality shows. There's something for everyone, which is one of the advantages of an overheated commercial media.

The problem I see is that as ratings drive TV, radio, movies, newspapers - the quality shows & books are going under. It's just a commercial fact of life - if producing quality costs just as much as producing a salable product, the salable product will grow to fill as much of the market as it can.

It is true that the theater, the opera, fine dining, attending an art show, etc. was the epitome of elegance in American culture and what was depicted in our movies as American life in the mid 20th Century. Even though they were pretty much activities available to the rich and not those of us of the lower working classes. But we loved the movies with that stuff in them and imagined that someday. . . .

Now the more affluent go to pro basketball and football games, attend Nascar events, or spend a day at Disneyworld or some such. I suppose they always did but that is seen as achieving the American dream moreso than museums and art shows and the opera. George Stevens took most of a year to do the final edit on "Giant" to make it something of enduring quality with the goal of making it an American classic who would enjoy it for generations. Back then movies weren't judged by how much the box office receipts were on the opening weekend but were judged by the cinematography, acting, screenplay, sound track, etc.

I wonder if any movie makers look beyond the $$$ anymore?

Neither good nor bad I suppose, though I hate to see the best that we once had to offer is now struggling as the culture changes.

 

[westwall]

Gone to crap I'm afraid. It's amazing how closely we are following in ancient Rome's footsteps. I just hope we get a benevolent tyrant.

 

[Oddball]

I have noticed in the last 20 years or so, that many don't have pride in their jobs any longer.
Most want to do as little as they can possibly get away with.
I would say that a lot has gone down the tubes, especially in the larger cities.
Too many everywhere just don't care about anything at all anymore.

Maybe with employees...But if you're a contractor or sub and want to keep working, you had better perform and deliver a quality product.

 

[Foxfyre]

Gone to crap I'm afraid. It's amazing how closely we are following in ancient Rome's footsteps. I just hope we get a benevolent tyrant.

And there is also that aspect. If Broadway and/or the Met turn off the lights, if the museums essentially close down due to lack of interest and/or contributions, if the fine dining restaurants finally give it up and convert to more fast food, etc. etc. etc. won't we all lose something special in our culture?

Puppy mills are destroying breed after breed by cranking out quantity instead of quality, and the music, television, and movie producers seem to be doing the same with short term $$$ as the only goal and almost no pride in product.

And who up there mentioned parents who don't parent? A morality that emphasizes 'if it feels good do it' instead of social taboos and social expectations of decorum and propriety? People who no longer accept personal responsibility for anything and blame anything, everything, and everybody else for whatever inadequacies or deprivation they feel that they have? A government that is increasingly self serving each year that passes.

And it is easy to become jaded and complacent in our doomsday sense that it is all over and the whole thing is collapsing around us.

But a long, long time ago, Mr. Foxfyre and his twin sister asked his mother why she named them what she did. And her answer was that she really didn't expect there to be a world by the time they grew up and their names wouldn't matter.

I remember my mother, when I was a child, saying how much harsher and angry the world was than it was when she was a child.

And I remember the line from the movie "Starman" when the alien visitor commented that what makes Earth people so beautiful is that they are at their best when things are worst. Those enduring the Great depression, those enduring the deprivations of WWII, those enduring the race riots and unrest of the 60's and 70's, those living through the hell of major fires and earthquakes and hurricanes--it must look pretty hopeless at such times. Yet people still pick themselves up and carry on and persevere.

So maybe this is just a phase that our grandchildren will look back on as the 'good old days?'

 

[hoosier88]

Well now that is interesting. I don't know for sure what age range Oddball falls into but figure he is older than Montro or HG but is quite a bit younger than me. But Montro and HG are both in what I consider the 'younger generation' though both are obviously mature enough to have thought about this stuff. Both out of the teenage period for sure.

But the interesting thing is that we definitely have a multi-generational representation here in this small group and yet seem to get where each other are coming from on this topic.

However, one difference is in perspective of formal dress. Montro sees it as discriminatory that men aren't allowed as much variety as women. While I have always envied men who know exactly how to dress and what to wear and can wear the same tux or suit to every occasion they attend in a year's time and nobody would even think about it other than the guys look properly attired. And if two guys look like carbon copies of each other, nobody even notices, much less cares. But if a woman wears the same dress too often, it is considered unseemly--is that the only dress she has?????--and she is much more likely to be judged on her appearance than the guy is. And it is much more difficult to choose what to wear. And to be wearing the same dress as another woman at almost any occasion is a faux pas.

(My bold)

(Grins) Yah, Uncle Miltie & Bugs Bunny & Benny Hill always said that wearing the same dress was a deadly sin ...

 

[Foxfyre]

I have noticed in the last 20 years or so, that many don't have pride in their jobs any longer.
Most want to do as little as they can possibly get away with.
I would say that a lot has gone down the tubes, especially in the larger cities.
Too many everywhere just don't care about anything at all anymore.

Maybe with employees...But if you're a contractor or sub and want to keep working, you had better perform and deliver a quality product.

Fortunately amongst surly counter people and civil servants that make you feel like they really don't want you there, we do see a few true masters who demonstrate great pride in workmanship and who we keep on our rolodex and mourn when they retire or pass on. Unfortunately they do seem to be a vanishing breed.