America should change sides and support Palestine.

[P F Tinmore]

How would supporting a terrorist regime HELP the US?

Keep in mind, Hamas doesn't like us either.

Who told you they don't like us?

US Jews spending the day in Gaza.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2eLFtfeowY]Codepink built a playground at beach camp in Gaza - YouTube[/ame]

No one has to tell me that. It's common sense. We are supplying and supporting their enemy (Israel). I'm sure we are not on their Christmas list.



"We regard this as a continuation of the American policy based on oppression and the shedding of Muslim and Arab blood…We condemn the assassination and the killing of an Arab holy warrior. We ask God to offer him mercy with the true believers and the martyrs."

(Ismail Haniyeh, head of the Hamas administration in the Gaza Strip commenting on the killing of Osama Bin Laden, May 2, 2011)

Somebody must have forgotten to tell them how dangerous Hamas is.

They have been to Gaza several times.

 

[expand]

Well, there is that small matter of Israeli nuclear weapons but Obama might be just stupid enough to try it anyway.

So, are you saying Israel's US supplied nuclear weapons would be a threat to America if the US stopped support for Israel?

It was France that supplied Israel with the technological know-how required to assemble a nuclear weapon. The U.S. was completely against their nuclear ambitions.

 

[Polk]

Lets see. Support Hamas, a known terror organization that lobs missiles, mortars and rockets indiscriminately into civilian targets. SPECIFICALLY targeting schools, day care centers , civilian bus lines, shopping centers , pizza parlors and the like. They use civilian tenement buildings , school yards and hospitals to launch their attacks from. For the sole purpose of using the dead civilians they got killed as publicity fodder. A group supported by Iran. Great plan.

There is a lot of things to be critical of Hamas for, but it's highly misleading to say they're targeting anything with the "rockets" and "missiles". The things are basically glorified grenade launchers.

 

[MHunterB]

Lets see. Support Hamas, a known terror organization that lobs missiles, mortars and rockets indiscriminately into civilian targets. SPECIFICALLY targeting schools, day care centers , civilian bus lines, shopping centers , pizza parlors and the like. They use civilian tenement buildings , school yards and hospitals to launch their attacks from. For the sole purpose of using the dead civilians they got killed as publicity fodder. A group supported by Iran. Great plan.

There is a lot of things to be critical of Hamas for, but it's highly misleading to say they're targeting anything with the "rockets" and "missiles". The things are basically glorified grenade launchers.

And the use of such missiles towards anything BUT a totally military area, contitutes terrorism and crimes against humanity. Even AI has acknowledged that intentional choice by HAMAS as being illegal and unlawful and criminal.

They ARE 'targeting' something: they are 'targeting' Israel. The entire nation, every last one of its citizens (including the 20% or so who are Arab Muslims).

 

[Polk]

Lets see. Support Hamas, a known terror organization that lobs missiles, mortars and rockets indiscriminately into civilian targets. SPECIFICALLY targeting schools, day care centers , civilian bus lines, shopping centers , pizza parlors and the like. They use civilian tenement buildings , school yards and hospitals to launch their attacks from. For the sole purpose of using the dead civilians they got killed as publicity fodder. A group supported by Iran. Great plan.

There is a lot of things to be critical of Hamas for, but it's highly misleading to say they're targeting anything with the "rockets" and "missiles". The things are basically glorified grenade launchers.

And the use of such missiles towards anything BUT a totally military area, contitutes terrorism and crimes against humanity. Even AI has acknowledged that intentional choice by HAMAS as being illegal and unlawful and criminal.

They ARE 'targeting' something: they are 'targeting' Israel. The entire nation, every last one of its citizens (including the 20% or so who are Arab Muslims).

I don't disagree with any of those points, but I felt the need to comment on this idea that they're precision strikes.

 

[MHunterB]

A, I hadn't inferred that those were 'precision' strikes. Altough it's known tha tHAMAS made a specific effort to hit a school bus travelling in the Negev, which is how one boy was killed recently.

It IS quite true that crowded civilian venues were chosen for "suicide" bomb attacks. The attack on the Dietzengoff (?sp) Center was timed so that hundreds of young Israeli children would be in there (it's a shopping center) during Purim - the holiday when Jewish kids do a 'trick-or-treat' thing.

So we can see that, although the nature of such weapons is 'indiscriminate' - there certainly has been time and effort put in by HAMAS and PFLP and others to try to kill Israeli civilians, particularly children. Certainly nobody hijacks a full school bus if they are trying to AVOID killing children.

 

[RoccoR]

Polk, RetiredGySgt, et al,

This is very dependent on which rocket system is being used. Lately, some of the rockets were of the Iranian type Fajr-5 [range of about 75 km].

Short News Article: [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPWWzOS82rA]Iran : Supplying FAJR-5 Missiles to Hamas Terrorist in their secret war with Israel (Nov 19, 2012) - YouTube[/ame] Well worth the minute and a half it takes to watch.

This is a little more sophisticated than just a grenade launchers.

Lets see. Support Hamas, a known terror organization that lobs missiles, mortars and rockets indiscriminately into civilian targets. SPECIFICALLY targeting schools, day care centers , civilian bus lines, shopping centers , pizza parlors and the like. They use civilian tenement buildings , school yards and hospitals to launch their attacks from. For the sole purpose of using the dead civilians they got killed as publicity fodder. A group supported by Iran. Great plan.

There is a lot of things to be critical of Hamas for, but it's highly misleading to say they're targeting anything with the "rockets" and "missiles". The things are basically glorified grenade launchers.

(COMMENT)

It is a 333mm Rocket, a bit bigger than the 122mm fire I experienced in Vietnam and Baghdad. And the 122mm is scary enough to most people. But like the 122mm, it is not much more than a MRL banket or indiscriminate indirect barrage fire weapon with little targeting capacity beyond a large target box. It is scary if it lands anywhere near you.

In an asymmetrical format, the use of such a weapon is to impart fear, not casualties, although if fired into a densely populated area it can do both.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RandallFlagg]

Polk, RetiredGySgt, et al,

This is very dependent on which rocket system is being used. Lately, some of the rockets were of the Iranian type Fajr-5 [range of about 75 km].

Short News Article: Iran : Supplying FAJR-5 Missiles to Hamas Terrorist in their secret war with Israel (Nov 19, 2012) - YouTube Well worth the minute and a half it takes to watch.

This is a little more sophisticated than just a grenade launchers.

Lets see. Support Hamas, a known terror organization that lobs missiles, mortars and rockets indiscriminately into civilian targets. SPECIFICALLY targeting schools, day care centers , civilian bus lines, shopping centers , pizza parlors and the like. They use civilian tenement buildings , school yards and hospitals to launch their attacks from. For the sole purpose of using the dead civilians they got killed as publicity fodder. A group supported by Iran. Great plan.

There is a lot of things to be critical of Hamas for, but it's highly misleading to say they're targeting anything with the "rockets" and "missiles". The things are basically glorified grenade launchers.

(COMMENT)

It is a 333mm Rocket, a bit bigger than the 122mm fire I experienced in Vietnam and Baghdad. And the 122mm is scary enough to most people. But like the 122mm, it is not much more than a MRL banket or indiscriminate indirect barrage fire weapon with little targeting capacity beyond a large target box. It is scary if it lands anywhere near you.

In an asymmetrical format, the use of such a weapon is to impart fear, not casualties, although if fired into a densely populated area it can do both.

Most Respectfully,
R

Thank you! I don't really understand the math of artillery (I was a mere infantryman), but I have been fired on with RPGs. These rockets, while not terribly accurate are a great deal more powerful than RPGs.

And, I might add, the logic is still flawed. What if Mexico or Canada began lobbing rockets at us? Would our allies claim that "it's nothing to get upset over! These things aren't really accurate and they do little damage?"

My support of Israel will never wane. My Bible and my faith command me to support Israel. I know, and realize, that that is a proposition that many of you on this forum simply cannot fathom. That's fine. I will live with the consequences of my faith and some of you will live with the consequences of yours.

 

[RoccoR]

expand, Indofred, Lumpy 1, et al,

Israel holds a nuclear weapons ambiguous status. It's history is very mixed.

Well, there is that small matter of Israeli nuclear weapons but Obama might be just stupid enough to try it anyway.

So, are you saying Israel's US supplied nuclear weapons would be a threat to America if the US stopped support for Israel?

It was France that supplied Israel with the technological know-how required to assemble a nuclear weapon. The U.S. was completely against their nuclear ambitions.

(COMMENT)

You almost have it right.

It was the Israelis that showed the French how to do it. The Israelis had the brain power and the French had the money and resources. They collaborated. I wrote extensively in another thread on this subject. But the French and the Israelis did their initial weapons testing together in the Algerian Desert. And it was the French that helped bring the Israeli reactors on line (initially).

The US actually did not want the Israelis to have the weapon, but instead, wanted to maintain a balance of power in the region. But the Israelis successfully came up with some weapons grade material (read about the Apollo Affair) and the US was very concerned that if the Israelis did deploy their first weapons, a US fingerprint would be all over it.

Most Respectfully,
R

References:

1. http://www.nps.edu/Academics/centers/CCC/conferences/recent/ProlifPathways/Israeli Nukes.pdf
2. http://berkeleyjournalofsocialsciences.com/March4.pdf
3. http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/israel/documents/reveal/01-01.htm
4. http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/israel/documents/reveal/02-01.htm
5. http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/israel/documents/reveal/03-01.htm
6. http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/israel/documents/reveal/04-01.htm
7. http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/israel/documents/reveal/06-01.htm
8. http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/israel/documents/reveal/07-01.htm
9. http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/israel/documents/reveal/08-01.htm
10. http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/israel/documents/reveal/09-01.htm
11. http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/israel/documents/reveal/10-01.htm
12. http://docs.nrdc.org/nuclear/files/nuc_10149601a_174.pdf

Note: These are all multiple page documents that require manual paging.​

• Marcoule Nuclear Site Marcoule site - AREVA
• Atoms for Peace Program Atoms for Peace - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
• Israeli Research Reactor at Soreq About Us
• Apollo Affair Zalman Shapiro - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
• Nuclear Weapons test in Algeria (Sahara Desert) Israel's Nuclear Weapons
• EL-102 Reactor in Dimona Nuclear weapons and Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
• Israeli Nuclear Weapons and Research Program Israeli Nuclear Threats and Blackmail

 

[eots]

Polk, RetiredGySgt, et al,

This is very dependent on which rocket system is being used. Lately, some of the rockets were of the Iranian type Fajr-5 [range of about 75 km].

Short News Article: Iran : Supplying FAJR-5 Missiles to Hamas Terrorist in their secret war with Israel (Nov 19, 2012) - YouTube Well worth the minute and a half it takes to watch.

This is a little more sophisticated than just a grenade launchers.

There is a lot of things to be critical of Hamas for, but it's highly misleading to say they're targeting anything with the "rockets" and "missiles". The things are basically glorified grenade launchers.

(COMMENT)

It is a 333mm Rocket, a bit bigger than the 122mm fire I experienced in Vietnam and Baghdad. And the 122mm is scary enough to most people. But like the 122mm, it is not much more than a MRL banket or indiscriminate indirect barrage fire weapon with little targeting capacity beyond a large target box. It is scary if it lands anywhere near you.

In an asymmetrical format, the use of such a weapon is to impart fear, not casualties, although if fired into a densely populated area it can do both.

Most Respectfully,
R

Thank you! I don't really understand the math of artillery (I was a mere infantryman), but I have been fired on with RPGs. These rockets, while not terribly accurate are a great deal more powerful than RPGs.

And, I might add, the logic is still flawed. What if Mexico or Canada began lobbing rockets at us? Would our allies claim that "it's nothing to get upset over! These things aren't really accurate and they do little damage?"

My support of Israel will never wane. My Bible and my faith command me to support Israel. I know, and realize, that that is a proposition that many of you on this forum simply cannot fathom. That's fine. I will live with the consequences of my faith and some of you will live with the consequences of yours.

what would you do if a Canadian or a Mexican came to your door and told you at gun point the house you live in and the land your family has lived on for hundreds of years was now theirs because..your god said so..?

 

[eots]

and where in your book does it say you are to support the secular state of Israel without question ??

 

[flacaltenn]

I would no more expect Israel to sit at the table with Hamas than I would expect the US, even under Obama, to sit at the table with Al-Queda.

I wouldn't be all that surprised if there was an Al-Queda weenie sucking tour by Obama...

Perhaps you can explain how that is anything to do with the question laid out in the OP.
I'm serious, America's enemies are almost all down to American intervention, in the middle east, all of them down to intervention in Israel.

If the US stopped funding Israel, all those enemies would disappear, almost overnight.

The only thing keeping the Arabs from destroying EACH OTHER is the conflict with Israel and the Great Satan. You act as tho peace and stability would bloom in that region if we withdrew support from Israel and let the Arabs drive them out. Far from it -- they have little respect for EACH OTHER.

To understand the stalemate over Palestine -- you only need to read the King of Jordan describe in his OWN WORDS --- why he threw the Palestinians and the West Bank under the bus. After all -- the West Bank WAS part of Jordan when it was taken.

Within a couple years of the loss of the West Bank -- Palestinians were commandeering army vehicles and driving into Amman and otherwise wrecking havoc with the Kings' peaceful and prosperous Kingdom. He cut them loose -- renounced any claim to the West Bank -- and washed his hands of the entire affair. At a HUGE loss of good agricultural and developed land.

THAT is why I can't accept your proposal in the OP Because even the King of Jordan found this Arab faction to be unreasonable and disruptive.

Seems like INSTABILITY is inherent in the culture and we will never understand how different the value system is between us and the radical Arab populace. They don't VALUE education, stability, and infrastructure or commerce the same way. And they are willing to be bombed backed into the Stone Age on principles..

 

[flacaltenn]

Not since 1922.

Yeah, I'm looking at it, but I don't see a country called Palestine. I see a lot of compromise offered, but blown off and war declared instead.

Over 100 countries at the UN just recognized Palestine as an already existing state.

Not true.. They were given "observer status". An option that COULD be given to any STATELESS recognized faction.

 

[eots]

i wouldn't be all that surprised if there was an al-queda weenie sucking tour by obama...

perhaps you can explain how that is anything to do with the question laid out in the op.
I'm serious, america's enemies are almost all down to american intervention, in the middle east, all of them down to intervention in israel.

If the us stopped funding israel, all those enemies would disappear, almost overnight.

the only thing keeping the arabs from destroying each other is the conflict with israel and the great satan. You act as tho peace and stability would bloom in that region if we withdrew support from israel and let the arabs drive them out. Far from it -- they have little respect for each other.

To understand the stalemate over palestine -- you only need to read the king of jordan describe in his own words --- why he threw the palestinians and the west bank under the bus. After all -- the west bank was part of jordan when it was taken.

Within a couple years of the loss of the west bank -- palestinians were commandeering army vehicles and driving into amman and otherwise wrecking havoc with the kings' peaceful and prosperous kingdom. He cut them loose -- renounced any claim to the west bank -- and washed his hands of the entire affair. At a huge loss of good agricultural and developed land.

that is why i can't accept your proposal in the op because even the king of jordan found this arab faction to be unreasonable and disruptive.

Seems like instability is inherent in the culture and we will never understand how different the value system is between us and the radical arab populace. They don't value education, stability, and infrastructure or commerce the same way. And they are willing to be bombed backed into the stone age on principles..

wow ...what a load of bullshit

 

[RoccoR]

RandallFlagg, et al,

Let there be no mistake about what I am saying.

Thank you! I don't really understand the math of artillery (I was a mere infantryman), but I have been fired on with RPGs. These rockets, while not terribly accurate are a great deal more powerful than RPGs.

And, I might add, the logic is still flawed. What if Mexico or Canada began lobbing rockets at us? Would our allies claim that "it's nothing to get upset over! These things aren't really accurate and they do little damage?"

My support of Israel will never wane. My Bible and my faith command me to support Israel. I know, and realize, that that is a proposition that many of you on this forum simply cannot fathom. That's fine. I will live with the consequences of my faith and some of you will live with the consequences of yours.

(COMMENT)

There is essentially NO comparison to a tradition enemy RPG-7 [or B-40 (Vietnam era)] series weapon. The Fajr-5 (usually fired in a volley of 4) has anywhere between a 90kg and 175kg HE warhead. An RPG will have less than a 5kg warhead.

No, you are absolutely correct, these are very dangerous. BUT, what we're talking about is the ability to accurately hit a target at the optimum range. You are more likely to hit a target with an RPG-7 (50% chance at 200m) than you are with a Fajr-5 (15%- chance at 70km).

While an RPG-7 can takeout one or two rooms in a building, a Fajr-5 can totally demolish a multi-story building (average house) with some collateral damage all around.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[MHunterB]

"what would you do if a Canadian or a Mexican came to your door and told you at gun point the house you live in and the land your family has lived on for hundreds of years was now theirs because..your god said so..?"

Thar's entirely inaccurate and inadequare as an analogy for past history. For one thing, many of the 'houses' were not owned by those families - and were legally purchased from their owners. And that 'analogy' is also flawed because it ignores a whole slew of third parties and their actions.

 

[flacaltenn]

perhaps you can explain how that is anything to do with the question laid out in the op.
I'm serious, america's enemies are almost all down to american intervention, in the middle east, all of them down to intervention in israel.

If the us stopped funding israel, all those enemies would disappear, almost overnight.

the only thing keeping the arabs from destroying each other is the conflict with israel and the great satan. You act as tho peace and stability would bloom in that region if we withdrew support from israel and let the arabs drive them out. Far from it -- they have little respect for each other.

To understand the stalemate over palestine -- you only need to read the king of jordan describe in his own words --- why he threw the palestinians and the west bank under the bus. After all -- the west bank was part of jordan when it was taken.

Within a couple years of the loss of the west bank -- palestinians were commandeering army vehicles and driving into amman and otherwise wrecking havoc with the kings' peaceful and prosperous kingdom. He cut them loose -- renounced any claim to the west bank -- and washed his hands of the entire affair. At a huge loss of good agricultural and developed land.

that is why i can't accept your proposal in the op because even the king of jordan found this arab faction to be unreasonable and disruptive.

Seems like instability is inherent in the culture and we will never understand how different the value system is between us and the radical arab populace. They don't value education, stability, and infrastructure or commerce the same way. And they are willing to be bombed backed into the stone age on principles..

wow ...what a load of bullshit

Really? What part? That the West Bank belonged to Jordan -- not the Palestinians? Or that King of Jordan essentially washed his hands of the Palestinians after he tired of them disrupting his Kingdom?

Or is it the observation that a Middle East WITHOUT Israel would be anything but peaceful and stable? How many Arabs killed in Iran-Iraq war? The invasion of Kuwait? And that's just the MOST recent history.

 

[flacaltenn]

From the website of the King of Jordan EOTS -----
\

Jordan - History - Disengagement from the West Bank


Consequently, in December 1948, a group of Palestinian leaders and notables from the West Bank convened a historic conference in Jericho, where they called for King Abdullah to take immediate steps to unite the two banks of the Jordan into a single state under his leadership.

On April 11, 1950, elections were held for a new Jordanian parliament in which the Palestinian Arabs of the West Bank were equally represented. Thirteen days later, Parliament unanimously approved a motion to unite the two banks of the Jordan River, constitutionally expanding the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan in order to safeguard what was left of the Arab territory of Palestine from further Zionist expansion.

The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan now included nearly one and a half million people, more than half a million of whom were refugees evicted from Jewish-occupied Palestine. All automatically became citizens of Jordan, a right that had first been offered in December 1949 to all Palestinians who wished to claim it. Although the Arab League opposed this plan, and no other Arab government followed Jordan’s lead, the Hashemite Kingdom offered the possibility of normal life for many people who would have otherwise remained stateless refugees.


When the final UN cease-fire was imposed on June 11, Israel stood in possession of a wide swath of Arab land, including the Egyptian Sinai, Syria’s Golan Heights, and, most significantly, what remained of Arab Palestine—the West Bank, including Arab East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip.

Of the states participating in the conflict, Jordan paid by far the heaviest price. As a result of the war, more than 300,000 Palestinian Arabs became refugees and fled to Jordan. For many of them, this was the second uprooting in less than two decades, having been driven from their original homes in 1948. Jordan’s economy was also devastated. About 70% of Jordan’s agricultural land was located in the West Bank, which produced 60 to 65% of its fruits and vegetables. Half of the Kingdom’s industrial establishments were located in the West Bank, while the loss of Jerusalem and other religious sites devastated the tourism industry. Altogether, areas now occupied by Israel had accounted for approximately 38% of Jordan’s gross national product.

The partnership with the Palestinians desired by King Hussein fell apart in September, 1970. The pervasive and chaotic presence of armed Palestinian fedayeen groups who expected immunity from Jordan’s laws was leading to a state of virtual anarchy throughout the Kingdom. Moderate Palestinian leaders were unable to reign in extremist elements, who ambushed the king’s motorcade twice and perpetrated a series of spectacular hijackings. Forced to respond decisively in order to preserve his country from anarchy, King Hussein ordered the army into action.
The situation prompted different reactions throughout the Arab world. While most leaders privately expressed sympathy with the position of King Hussein, many took a public stance in favor of the fedayeen in order to embellish their credentials as “Arab nationalists.” The conflict reached a crisis point in September when some 200 Syrian tanks, camouflaged rather unconvincingly as Palestinian Liberation Army tanks, crossed into Jordan. The Syrians were bereft of air cover, however, and Jordanian aircraft forced a Syrian retreat within three days. In a brief yet intense campaign ending in July 1971, the Jordanian army put an end to the chaotic actions of these Palestinians guerrillas in Amman.

On July 28, 1988, King Hussein announced the cessation of a $1.3 billion development program for the West Bank, explaining that the measure was designed to allow the PLO more responsibility for the area. Two days later, he formally dissolved Parliament, ending West Bank representation in the legislature. Finally, on July 31 King Hussein announced the severance of all administrative and legal ties with the occupied West Bank. Accordingly, electoral districts were redrawn to represent East Bank constituencies only. This disengagement decision marks the turning point that launched the current democratic process, and began a new stage in Jordan’s relationship with West Bank Palestinians.

 

[eots]

the only thing keeping the arabs from destroying each other is the conflict with israel and the great satan. You act as tho peace and stability would bloom in that region if we withdrew support from israel and let the arabs drive them out. Far from it -- they have little respect for each other.

To understand the stalemate over palestine -- you only need to read the king of jordan describe in his own words --- why he threw the palestinians and the west bank under the bus. After all -- the west bank was part of jordan when it was taken.

Within a couple years of the loss of the west bank -- palestinians were commandeering army vehicles and driving into amman and otherwise wrecking havoc with the kings' peaceful and prosperous kingdom. He cut them loose -- renounced any claim to the west bank -- and washed his hands of the entire affair. At a huge loss of good agricultural and developed land.

that is why i can't accept your proposal in the op because even the king of jordan found this arab faction to be unreasonable and disruptive.

Seems like instability is inherent in the culture and we will never understand how different the value system is between us and the radical arab populace. They don't value education, stability, and infrastructure or commerce the same way. And they are willing to be bombed backed into the stone age on principles..

wow ...what a load of bullshit

Really? What part? That the West Bank belonged to Jordan -- not the Palestinians? Or that King of Jordan essentially washed his hands of the Palestinians after he tired of them disrupting his Kingdom?

Or is it the observation that a Middle East WITHOUT Israel would be anything but peaceful and stable? How many Arabs killed in Iran-Iraq war? The invasion of Kuwait? And that's just the MOST recent history.

All of it is bullshit and spin but especially this..

Seems like instability is inherent in the culture and we will never understand how different the value system is between us and the radical arab populace. They don't value education, stability, and infrastructure or commerce the same way

 

[eots]

who has Iran ever invaded ?