Against your interests

[courseofhistory]

Some people on this forum marvel that anyone votes against their interest. Personally, I marvel that more people don't. If the true goal of your life is to put others first, and to support your country of your party, you should always be willing to vote against your interests. Not voting against your personal interests in the pursuit of a better life for everyone is the sign of a selfish person, not a healthy, well adjusted, individual.

I have a similar outlook although I don't call it voting against my interests. I feel that I might vote for Obama this time around mostly due to to the issue of women's rights and other social issues. I'm at the point due to my age that I personally don't need to worry about birth control, abortion, equal pay, etc. but I do care about those things for future generations of women.

 

[Vidi]

If I can't resolve the issue personally to the satisfaction of all involved, yes.

Then in that case, would government not be a mechanism by which the rights of the people are being protected?

...by limiting the actions of other people.

Actions that infringe upon the libertys of others.

So are you opposed to that? Government as a mechanism for the protection of the liberties of the people?

 

[Vidi]

If I can't resolve the issue personally to the satisfaction of all involved, yes.

Then in that case, would government not be a mechanism by which the rights of the people are being protected?

That is a Primary Function of Government.

I agree.

Which is why I am questioning him.

 

[Foxfyre]

I object to maximum personal liberty if "maximum personal liberty" means that my neighbor down the street who drives into the neighborhood at 3:30 in the morning every morning, with the damned base on his radio blaring. There are tons of things that people consider personal liberties that interfere with my liberty.

I confess, I object to "maximum personal liberty".

Immie

You're neighbor's actions, in this case, are not conducive to civilized society.

I wish someone else would get up at 3:30 and tell the SOB that! Me? I like all the rest roll over, yell from my comfortable bed (as if he could hear me) for him to turn that damned thing down. I highly doubt that he can actually hear anything at all, though. Lord knows the entire neighborhood can feel the vibrations through the ground and need not actually hear it.

Immie

Wow Immie, do you live in the same neighborhood with us?. We apparently have the same guy coming home from work in the wee hours of the morning. . . .ka THUMP. . . .ka THUMP. Rattles everything loose in the house. And of course the bedroom is on the front of the house and the window is open so we get it full bore.

But then again, if that's the worst thing that happens to us in our neighborhood, and these days it is, I figure it is in my interests to be grateful my neighbor has a job and not complain.

 

[saveliberty]

That guy ends up with a lot of flat tires in his driveway in our neighborhood for some unexplained reason.

 

[Immanuel]

You're neighbor's actions, in this case, are not conducive to civilized society.

I wish someone else would get up at 3:30 and tell the SOB that! Me? I like all the rest roll over, yell from my comfortable bed (as if he could hear me) for him to turn that damned thing down. I highly doubt that he can actually hear anything at all, though. Lord knows the entire neighborhood can feel the vibrations through the ground and need not actually hear it.

Immie

Wow Immie, do you live in the same neighborhood with us?. We apparently have the same guy coming home from work in the wee hours of the morning. . . .ka THUMP. . . .ka THUMP. Rattles everything loose in the house. And of course the bedroom is on the front of the house and the window is open so we get it full bore.

But then again, if that's the worst thing that happens to us in our neighborhood, and these days it is, I figure it is in my interests to be grateful my neighbor has a job and not complain.

I'm not so certain this neighbor has a job.

There are times I'd like to go out there at about 8:30 when he is sleeping it off and start pounding on pots and pans right under his damned window.

Immie

 

[Foxfyre]

In my opinion, the ONLY function of the federal government should be to secure our rights and provide the structure for the orderly and peaceful union of the various states. Everything else should be left to the state and local governments and the private sector. And yes, I would be willing to vote against my own interests to return to that concept.

 

[Avatar4321]

Some people on this forum marvel that anyone votes against their interest. Personally, I marvel that more people don't. If the true goal of your life is to put others first, and to support your country of your party, you should always be willing to vote against your interests. Not voting against your personal interests in the pursuit of a better life for everyone is the sign of a selfish person, not a healthy, well adjusted, individual.

What I marvel at is that people arrogantly assume they know whats in the best interest of complete strangers.

 

[Borillar]

You would have to convince me that the people that gave us those things are true conservatives. I'm not saying the are liberals or even progressives, but as a conservative you cannot convince me that the TSA, DHS or the Patriot Act are things that I or the conservatives I know condone.

Simply because those things are Republican shit, doesn't mean those things are supported by conservatives. The Republicans screwed over true conservatives while they were screwing over liberals as well. The people that gave us that shit are elitist power hungry statist and nothing more. They lie about their beliefs in order to gain power just as Obama and Romney are doing today.

Immie

Well, currently the Republican party is the "Conservative" one, although there are a few Blue Dog Democrats. Republicans pride themselves on being conservative and run on conservative values. Republicans voted overwhelmingly for these things, therefore Conservatives must be for them. Ergo Ipso Facto Columbo Oreo.

Where I would disagree with you, Borillar, is in the part of your statement where you say they run on conservative values. They run on what they claim are conservative values. Basically, they have redefined what it means to be conservative.

I can claim to be a progressive and as long as I claim it enough and I can control the definition of what it means to be "progressive" then I am progressive. Most Republican politicians are a far cry from what conservatism truly is. The crowd that brought us The Patriot Act and the TSA are closer to what is known as neo-con and, dread I use that so oft mis-used word... fascists.

Immie

If Republicans are not truly Conservative, then why do Conservatives vote for Republicans?

Perhaps these labels are getting so misused that they are pretty much meaningless anymore. So who then is a true "Conservative" among Republicans? Boner? McChinless? Bush? Cheney? Romney? McCain? Palin? If the Republican platform is not "Conservative", then what are the Conservative values and policies you are looking for?

 

[Vidi]

Well, currently the Republican party is the "Conservative" one, although there are a few Blue Dog Democrats. Republicans pride themselves on being conservative and run on conservative values. Republicans voted overwhelmingly for these things, therefore Conservatives must be for them. Ergo Ipso Facto Columbo Oreo.

Where I would disagree with you, Borillar, is in the part of your statement where you say they run on conservative values. They run on what they claim are conservative values. Basically, they have redefined what it means to be conservative.

I can claim to be a progressive and as long as I claim it enough and I can control the definition of what it means to be "progressive" then I am progressive. Most Republican politicians are a far cry from what conservatism truly is. The crowd that brought us The Patriot Act and the TSA are closer to what is known as neo-con and, dread I use that so oft mis-used word... fascists.

Immie

If Republicans are not truly Conservative, then why do Conservatives vote for Republicans? Perhaps these labels are getting so misused that they are pretty much meaningless anymore. So who then is a true "Conservative" among Republicans? Boner? McChinless? Bush? Cheney? Romney? McCain? Palin? If the Republican platform is not "Conservative", then what are the Conservative values and policies you are looking for?

Because people identify themselves as Conservatives and when someone is on TV or the radio screaming that "THESE ARE CONSERVATIVE VALUES!" for a decade or more, those people start to believe thats what Conservative values are. It also helps if the screamers paint the other side with scary words like "Muslim" " Socialist" and "Communist"


Theyve been bamboozled.

 

[Immanuel]

Well, currently the Republican party is the "Conservative" one, although there are a few Blue Dog Democrats. Republicans pride themselves on being conservative and run on conservative values. Republicans voted overwhelmingly for these things, therefore Conservatives must be for them. Ergo Ipso Facto Columbo Oreo.

Where I would disagree with you, Borillar, is in the part of your statement where you say they run on conservative values. They run on what they claim are conservative values. Basically, they have redefined what it means to be conservative.

I can claim to be a progressive and as long as I claim it enough and I can control the definition of what it means to be "progressive" then I am progressive. Most Republican politicians are a far cry from what conservatism truly is. The crowd that brought us The Patriot Act and the TSA are closer to what is known as neo-con and, dread I use that so oft mis-used word... fascists.

Immie

If Republicans are not truly Conservative, then why do Conservatives vote for Republicans?

Perhaps these labels are getting so misused that they are pretty much meaningless anymore. So who then is a true "Conservative" among Republicans? Boner? McChinless? Bush? Cheney? Romney? McCain? Palin? If the Republican platform is not "Conservative", then what are the Conservative values and policies you are looking for?

Who else can they vote for? The parties are not giving conservatives what they ask for. Conservatives can vote for at best, "the lesser of two evils" and generally they see that as the Republican candidate because the Republican candidate tells them what they want to hear while the Democratic candidate tells them to "fuck off and die".

As for Republicans, what have they done for conservatives in the last forty years. We've still got Abortion. We still have a failing Social Security plan. We still have a Welfare System that locks its victims into a death grip and does not let go. Now we have Obamacare, which as Democrats like to point out was largely written by Republicans and if a Republican was in the White House would be supported by Republicans. We've got the Patriot Act which is antithetical to conservative thinking, but because it was signed into a law by a Republican, well... it has to be conservative, doesn't it?

What has the Republican Party done for conservatives lately? What has either party done for the citizens of America lately? Not a whole hell of a lot.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

Where I would disagree with you, Borillar, is in the part of your statement where you say they run on conservative values. They run on what they claim are conservative values. Basically, they have redefined what it means to be conservative.

I can claim to be a progressive and as long as I claim it enough and I can control the definition of what it means to be "progressive" then I am progressive. Most Republican politicians are a far cry from what conservatism truly is. The crowd that brought us The Patriot Act and the TSA are closer to what is known as neo-con and, dread I use that so oft mis-used word... fascists.

Immie

If Republicans are not truly Conservative, then why do Conservatives vote for Republicans? Perhaps these labels are getting so misused that they are pretty much meaningless anymore. So who then is a true "Conservative" among Republicans? Boner? McChinless? Bush? Cheney? Romney? McCain? Palin? If the Republican platform is not "Conservative", then what are the Conservative values and policies you are looking for?

Because people identify themselves as Conservatives and when someone is on TV or the radio screaming that "THESE ARE CONSERVATIVE VALUES!" for a decade or more, those people start to believe thats what Conservative values are. It also helps if the screamers paint the other side with scary words like "Muslim" " Socialist" and "Communist"


Theyve been bamboozled.

Exactly!

Immie

 

[Vidi]

Where I would disagree with you, Borillar, is in the part of your statement where you say they run on conservative values. They run on what they claim are conservative values. Basically, they have redefined what it means to be conservative.

I can claim to be a progressive and as long as I claim it enough and I can control the definition of what it means to be "progressive" then I am progressive. Most Republican politicians are a far cry from what conservatism truly is. The crowd that brought us The Patriot Act and the TSA are closer to what is known as neo-con and, dread I use that so oft mis-used word... fascists.

Immie

If Republicans are not truly Conservative, then why do Conservatives vote for Republicans?

Perhaps these labels are getting so misused that they are pretty much meaningless anymore. So who then is a true "Conservative" among Republicans? Boner? McChinless? Bush? Cheney? Romney? McCain? Palin? If the Republican platform is not "Conservative", then what are the Conservative values and policies you are looking for?

Who else can they vote for? The parties are not giving conservatives what they ask for. Conservatives can vote for at best, "the lesser of two evils" and generally they see that as the Republican candidate because the Republican candidate tells them what they want to hear while the Democratic candidate tells them to "fuck off and die".

As for Republicans, what have they done for conservatives in the last forty years. We've still got Abortion. We still have a failing Social Security plan. We still have a Welfare System that locks its victims into a death grip and does not let go. Now we have Obamacare, which as Democrats like to point out was largely written by Republicans and if a Republican was in the White House would be supported by Republicans. We've got the Patriot Act which is antithetical to conservative thinking, but because it was signed into a law by a Republican, well... it has to be conservative, doesn't it?

What has the Republican Party done for conservatives lately? What has either party done for the citizens of America lately? Not a whole hell of a lot.

Immie

Lets not forget though, that the Demcrats are no better. They lay claim to a great many so called Progressive and Liberal stances and then give us the ultra right solution of the Individual Mandate.

The Left has also been bamboozled.

 

[Avatar4321]

If Republicans are not truly Conservative, then why do Conservatives vote for Republicans?

Perhaps these labels are getting so misused that they are pretty much meaningless anymore. So who then is a true "Conservative" among Republicans? Boner? McChinless? Bush? Cheney? Romney? McCain? Palin? If the Republican platform is not "Conservative", then what are the Conservative values and policies you are looking for?

Who else can they vote for? The parties are not giving conservatives what they ask for. Conservatives can vote for at best, "the lesser of two evils" and generally they see that as the Republican candidate because the Republican candidate tells them what they want to hear while the Democratic candidate tells them to "fuck off and die".

As for Republicans, what have they done for conservatives in the last forty years. We've still got Abortion. We still have a failing Social Security plan. We still have a Welfare System that locks its victims into a death grip and does not let go. Now we have Obamacare, which as Democrats like to point out was largely written by Republicans and if a Republican was in the White House would be supported by Republicans. We've got the Patriot Act which is antithetical to conservative thinking, but because it was signed into a law by a Republican, well... it has to be conservative, doesn't it?

What has the Republican Party done for conservatives lately? What has either party done for the citizens of America lately? Not a whole hell of a lot.

Immie

Lets not forget though, that the Demcrats are no better. They lay claim to a great many so called Progressive and Liberal stances and then give us the ultra right solution of the Individual Mandate.

The Left has also been bamboozled.

How exactly is giving people more government an ultra right solution to anything?

the left is just upset because we cant get to totalitarianism fast enough.

 

[Immanuel]

If Republicans are not truly Conservative, then why do Conservatives vote for Republicans?

Perhaps these labels are getting so misused that they are pretty much meaningless anymore. So who then is a true "Conservative" among Republicans? Boner? McChinless? Bush? Cheney? Romney? McCain? Palin? If the Republican platform is not "Conservative", then what are the Conservative values and policies you are looking for?

Who else can they vote for? The parties are not giving conservatives what they ask for. Conservatives can vote for at best, "the lesser of two evils" and generally they see that as the Republican candidate because the Republican candidate tells them what they want to hear while the Democratic candidate tells them to "fuck off and die".

As for Republicans, what have they done for conservatives in the last forty years. We've still got Abortion. We still have a failing Social Security plan. We still have a Welfare System that locks its victims into a death grip and does not let go. Now we have Obamacare, which as Democrats like to point out was largely written by Republicans and if a Republican was in the White House would be supported by Republicans. We've got the Patriot Act which is antithetical to conservative thinking, but because it was signed into a law by a Republican, well... it has to be conservative, doesn't it?

What has the Republican Party done for conservatives lately? What has either party done for the citizens of America lately? Not a whole hell of a lot.

Immie

Lets not forget though, that the Demcrats are no better. They lay claim to a great many so called Progressive and Liberal stances and then give us the ultra right solution of the Individual Mandate.

The Left has also been bamboozled.

Both parties work towards one goal... their own power. Whatever it takes to enrich the "ruling class" and we have ceded control of this nation. Quite frankly, I don't think there is a doggone thing, "we the people" can do to take our nation back.

Immie

 

[Borillar]

Where I would disagree with you, Borillar, is in the part of your statement where you say they run on conservative values. They run on what they claim are conservative values. Basically, they have redefined what it means to be conservative.

I can claim to be a progressive and as long as I claim it enough and I can control the definition of what it means to be "progressive" then I am progressive. Most Republican politicians are a far cry from what conservatism truly is. The crowd that brought us The Patriot Act and the TSA are closer to what is known as neo-con and, dread I use that so oft mis-used word... fascists.

Immie

If Republicans are not truly Conservative, then why do Conservatives vote for Republicans?

Perhaps these labels are getting so misused that they are pretty much meaningless anymore. So who then is a true "Conservative" among Republicans? Boner? McChinless? Bush? Cheney? Romney? McCain? Palin? If the Republican platform is not "Conservative", then what are the Conservative values and policies you are looking for?

Who else can they vote for? The parties are not giving conservatives what they ask for. Conservatives can vote for at best, "the lesser of two evils" and generally they see that as the Republican candidate because the Republican candidate tells them what they want to hear while the Democratic candidate tells them to "fuck off and die".

As for Republicans, what have they done for conservatives in the last forty years. We've still got Abortion. We still have a failing Social Security plan. We still have a Welfare System that locks its victims into a death grip and does not let go. Now we have Obamacare, which as Democrats like to point out was largely written by Republicans and if a Republican was in the White House would be supported by Republicans. We've got the Patriot Act which is antithetical to conservative thinking, but because it was signed into a law by a Republican, well... it has to be conservative, doesn't it?

What has the Republican Party done for conservatives lately? What has either party done for the citizens of America lately? Not a whole hell of a lot.

Immie

OK, I guess you've got me. I won't use "Conservative" and "Republican" interchangeably anymore. I honestly thought they were pretty much the same thing. The Republican party has for a long time struck me as being very authoritarian and in the pocket of corporations. I thought Conservatives were big on out toughing everyone on crime, building up the military at the expense of everything else, giving lush tax breaks to the rich, wanting to do away with the social safety net, codifying religious dogma into law, and stomping on individual liberties except gun ownership. So it is just Republicans who want these things? It is Republicans and not Conservatives who want the TSA, DHS, and Patriot Act?

What is it that Conservatives want? Someone stated that Conservatives are >40% of the population. How can the Republican party not listen to that big a constituency? Why not form a "Conservative" party?

 

[George Costanza]

Some people on this forum marvel that anyone votes against their interest. Personally, I marvel that more people don't. If the true goal of your life is to put others first, and to support your country of your party, you should always be willing to vote against your interests. Not voting against your personal interests in the pursuit of a better life for everyone is the sign of a selfish person, not a healthy, well adjusted, individual.

Couldn't agree more.

I can give you an excellent example of people voting against their own interests. Take working class Republicans who vote Republican because of the "family values" espoused by their party, totally overlooking what the Republican party does (or would like to do) to the working class.

In one sense, I suppose, it could be argued that IF these working class Republican voters had thought the whole thing through and decided that "family values" were more important to them than job and financial security, then they would not be voting against their own interests - they would just be making an informed choice.

Sad to say, however, all too many of such voters are not making anything even approaching an informed choice. All they think about are their cherished "family values" without even considering or being aware of what the Republican Party would like to do to the working class, unions and anything else that they deem detrimental to Big Business.

Here is an example from today's news: "The primary reason that the GOP dubbed healthcare reform "Obamacare" was to play on the prejudices of their base. By calling it Obamacare it distracts their base from the recognition that healthcare reform is a policy that would not only benefit, but protect their families. But instead of recognizing that glaring fact, all they’re thinking about is their hatred of Barack Obama, and as a result, act against their own interests."

The Wattree Chronicle: How Do Politicians Get People to vote Against Their Own Interests

 

[Immanuel]

If Republicans are not truly Conservative, then why do Conservatives vote for Republicans?

Perhaps these labels are getting so misused that they are pretty much meaningless anymore. So who then is a true "Conservative" among Republicans? Boner? McChinless? Bush? Cheney? Romney? McCain? Palin? If the Republican platform is not "Conservative", then what are the Conservative values and policies you are looking for?

Who else can they vote for? The parties are not giving conservatives what they ask for. Conservatives can vote for at best, "the lesser of two evils" and generally they see that as the Republican candidate because the Republican candidate tells them what they want to hear while the Democratic candidate tells them to "fuck off and die".

As for Republicans, what have they done for conservatives in the last forty years. We've still got Abortion. We still have a failing Social Security plan. We still have a Welfare System that locks its victims into a death grip and does not let go. Now we have Obamacare, which as Democrats like to point out was largely written by Republicans and if a Republican was in the White House would be supported by Republicans. We've got the Patriot Act which is antithetical to conservative thinking, but because it was signed into a law by a Republican, well... it has to be conservative, doesn't it?

What has the Republican Party done for conservatives lately? What has either party done for the citizens of America lately? Not a whole hell of a lot.

Immie

OK, I guess you've got me. I won't use "Conservative" and "Republican" interchangeably anymore. I honestly thought they were pretty much the same thing. The Republican party has for a long time struck me as being very authoritarian and in the pocket of corporations. I thought Conservatives were big on out toughing everyone on crime, building up the military at the expense of everything else, giving lush tax breaks to the rich, wanting to do away with the social safety net, codifying religious dogma into law, and stomping on individual liberties except gun ownership. So it is just Republicans who want these things? It is Republicans and not Conservatives who want the TSA, DHS, and Patriot Act?

What is it that Conservatives want? Someone stated that Conservatives are >40% of the population. How can the Republican party not listen to that big a constituency? Why not form a "Conservative" party?

I'm trying to get to bed (and obviously not that successful) so this answer is likely to be short and not all that in depth.

What do conservatives want? Let me ask you, can you define what every "liberal" wants?

I think conservatives basically want liberty and the freedom to live their lives in peace with their neighbors. We've been defined (in the same way as Republicans define liberals) as not caring about the poor, sick and hungry. I think that is bullshit. I think conservatives care as much as liberals do, but, I do believe one difference between conservatives and liberals is that conservatives believe that they serve the poor more by lifting them up and putting the poor back on their feet rather than providing a hand out for life.

I honestly do not think liberals and conservatives want vastly different things. Liberals want to help the poor, so do conservatives. The difference is in the understanding as to which is more helpful. By the way, I don't see Republican politicians as caring all that much for the poor but then the same goes for Democrats. The Democrats use the poor for votes, but really what have the Democrats done for the poor in the last forty years? I think if you think about it, you can come up with a list similar to mine in the earlier post of the truly lack of accomplishments for the poor of the Democratic Party.

I, as a conservative, do not want to interfere in the lives of my fellow citizens. I hate abortion and if I could find some way to reduce the number of abortions every year, I would do so even if it included that terrible word... compromise. I look at it like this, is the goal here to win the debate or to save lives? I'll choose the saving lives and you can have the damned debate. I want to mend social security because as an accountant and a person with a degree (although only a BS) in Finance, I believe we the people can do a hell of a lot better than the government is doing for us. Note: I said mend, not end. The idea behind Social Security is sound, but letting the politicians get all of our hard earned taxes if we should die shortly before arriving or even shortly after arriving at "retirement age" is BS in my humble opinion.

I don't want to end Welfare. I want to help people down on their luck to find a way to better days. I just don't want those people being stuck in the rut for the rest of their natural lives.

I despise "Obamacare". Why? Because I believe it gives to much control of our economy to the hated politicians. The concept of helping the poor is commendable. Believing that a politician cares about the poor is foolish.

Did I say this was going to be a short response? Yeah, I did didn't I?

Well, I don't think the desires of the common everyday conservative are all that different from the common everyday liberal. You, as a liberal, are not my enemy. My enemy is the system in Washington that works to enpower those who have it all at the expense of those of us who have enough to survive or those who are struggling just to survive.

Can you honestly say that I am your enemy based on the above?

Immie

 

[Vidi]

Who else can they vote for? The parties are not giving conservatives what they ask for. Conservatives can vote for at best, "the lesser of two evils" and generally they see that as the Republican candidate because the Republican candidate tells them what they want to hear while the Democratic candidate tells them to "fuck off and die".

As for Republicans, what have they done for conservatives in the last forty years. We've still got Abortion. We still have a failing Social Security plan. We still have a Welfare System that locks its victims into a death grip and does not let go. Now we have Obamacare, which as Democrats like to point out was largely written by Republicans and if a Republican was in the White House would be supported by Republicans. We've got the Patriot Act which is antithetical to conservative thinking, but because it was signed into a law by a Republican, well... it has to be conservative, doesn't it?

What has the Republican Party done for conservatives lately? What has either party done for the citizens of America lately? Not a whole hell of a lot.

Immie

OK, I guess you've got me. I won't use "Conservative" and "Republican" interchangeably anymore. I honestly thought they were pretty much the same thing. The Republican party has for a long time struck me as being very authoritarian and in the pocket of corporations. I thought Conservatives were big on out toughing everyone on crime, building up the military at the expense of everything else, giving lush tax breaks to the rich, wanting to do away with the social safety net, codifying religious dogma into law, and stomping on individual liberties except gun ownership. So it is just Republicans who want these things? It is Republicans and not Conservatives who want the TSA, DHS, and Patriot Act?

What is it that Conservatives want? Someone stated that Conservatives are >40% of the population. How can the Republican party not listen to that big a constituency? Why not form a "Conservative" party?

I'm trying to get to bed (and obviously not that successful) so this answer is likely to be short and not all that in depth.

What do conservatives want? Let me ask you, can you define what every "liberal" wants?

I think conservatives basically want liberty and the freedom to live their lives in peace with their neighbors. We've been defined (in the same way as Republicans define liberals) as not caring about the poor, sick and hungry. I think that is bullshit. I think conservatives care as much as liberals do, but, I do believe one difference between conservatives and liberals is that conservatives believe that they serve the poor more by lifting them up and putting the poor back on their feet rather than providing a hand out for life.

I honestly do not think liberals and conservatives want vastly different things. Liberals want to help the poor, so do conservatives. The difference is in the understanding as to which is more helpful. By the way, I don't see Republican politicians as caring all that much for the poor but then the same goes for Democrats. The Democrats use the poor for votes, but really what have the Democrats done for the poor in the last forty years? I think if you think about it, you can come up with a list similar to mine in the earlier post of the truly lack of accomplishments for the poor of the Democratic Party.

I, as a conservative, do not want to interfere in the lives of my fellow citizens. I hate abortion and if I could find some way to reduce the number of abortions every year, I would do so even if it included that terrible word... compromise. I look at it like this, is the goal here to win the debate or to save lives? I'll choose the saving lives and you can have the damned debate. I want to mend social security because as an accountant and a person with a degree (although only a BS) in Finance, I believe we the people can do a hell of a lot better than the government is doing for us. Note: I said mend, not end. The idea behind Social Security is sound, but letting the politicians get all of our hard earned taxes if we should die shortly before arriving or even shortly after arriving at "retirement age" is BS in my humble opinion.

I don't want to end Welfare. I want to help people down on their luck to find a way to better days. I just don't want those people being stuck in the rut for the rest of their natural lives.

I despise "Obamacare". Why? Because I believe it gives to much control of our economy to the hated politicians. The concept of helping the poor is commendable. Believing that a politician cares about the poor is foolish.

Did I say this was going to be a short response? Yeah, I did didn't I?

Well, I don't think the desires of the common everyday conservative are all that different from the common everyday liberal. You, as a liberal, are not my enemy. My enemy is the system in Washington that works to enpower those who have it all at the expense of those of us who have enough to survive or those who are struggling just to survive.

Can you honestly say that I am your enemy based on the above?

Immie

See, now I take issue with your definition of liberal intent.

I dont see the liberal/progressive way of dealing with the poor as simply giving them a free ride. In fact, I think youd be hard pressed to find anyone who identifies as a liberal or progressive that would agree with the concept of a "free ride".

As to your last question...to be honest...yeah kinda.

Not because of your stated values, because I completely agree with those, but because of your characterization of your opponents. In my opinion, it is a mischaracterization.

As long as we continuie to mischaracterize our opponents, are we not perpetuating the very thing youre railing against?

 

[Avatar4321]

Where I would disagree with you, Borillar, is in the part of your statement where you say they run on conservative values. They run on what they claim are conservative values. Basically, they have redefined what it means to be conservative.

I can claim to be a progressive and as long as I claim it enough and I can control the definition of what it means to be "progressive" then I am progressive. Most Republican politicians are a far cry from what conservatism truly is. The crowd that brought us The Patriot Act and the TSA are closer to what is known as neo-con and, dread I use that so oft mis-used word... fascists.

Immie

If Republicans are not truly Conservative, then why do Conservatives vote for Republicans? Perhaps these labels are getting so misused that they are pretty much meaningless anymore. So who then is a true "Conservative" among Republicans? Boner? McChinless? Bush? Cheney? Romney? McCain? Palin? If the Republican platform is not "Conservative", then what are the Conservative values and policies you are looking for?

Because people identify themselves as Conservatives and when someone is on TV or the radio screaming that "THESE ARE CONSERVATIVE VALUES!" for a decade or more, those people start to believe thats what Conservative values are. It also helps if the screamers paint the other side with scary words like "Muslim" " Socialist" and "Communist"


Theyve been bamboozled.

What Conservtive values do you think has been "screamed" on the radio?