Accomplishments of Liberalism

[manifold]

Yes, they wanted a government strong enough to survive. With the development of the Constitution that was achieved.

Our government is strong enough now, thanks. The Federalist papers aren't the green light for eternal and nonsensical government growth, to the point where individuals lose their autonomy.

Besides which, there were those who opposed the concept. Patrick Henry, for one. Was he a liberal?

The most vocal opponent of Federalism was Thomas Jefferson, the poster boy for Liberalism.

 

[ReillyT]

The Dictionary should be sufficient, but here is an excerpt from Federalist Paper 23.

Every view we may take of the subject, as candid inquirers after truth, will serve to convince us, that it is both unwise and dangerous to deny the federal government an unconfined authority, as to all those objects which are intrusted to its management. It will indeed deserve the most vigilant and careful attention of the people, to see that it be modeled in such a manner as to admit of its being safely vested with the requisite powers. If any plan which has been, or may be, offered to our consideration, should not, upon a dispassionate inspection, be found to answer this description, it ought to be rejected. A government, the constitution of which renders it unfit to be trusted with all the powers which a free people OUGHT TO DELEGATE TO ANY GOVERNMENT, would be an unsafe and improper depositary of the NATIONAL INTERESTS. Wherever THESE can with propriety be confided, the coincident powers may safely accompany them. This is the true result of all just reasoning upon the subject. And the adversaries of the plan promulgated by the convention ought to have confined themselves to showing, that the internal structure of the proposed government was such as to render it unworthy of the confidence of the people. They ought not to have wandered into inflammatory declamations and unmeaning cavils about the extent of the powers. The POWERS are not too extensive for the OBJECTS of federal administration, or, in other words, for the management of our NATIONAL INTERESTS; nor can any satisfactory argument be framed to show that they are chargeable with such an excess. If it be true, as has been insinuated by some of the writers on the other side, that the difficulty arises from the nature of the thing, and that the extent of the country will not permit us to form a government in which such ample powers can safely be reposed, it would prove that we ought to contract our views, and resort to the expedient of separate confederacies, which will move within more practicable spheres. For the absurdity must continually stare us in the face of confiding to a government the direction of the most essential national interests, without daring to trust it to the authorities which are indispensible to their proper and efficient management. Let us not attempt to reconcile contradictions, but firmly embrace a rational alternative.

http://www.foundingfathers.info/federalistpapers/fed23.htm

The capitalization is Alexander Hamilton. By the way, who is Alexander Hamilton? He is the FF that wanted to adopt a monarchy.

Based on his interpretation of history, Hamilton concluded the ideal form of government had represented all the interest groups, but maintained a hereditary monarch to decide policy. In his opinion, this was impractical in the United States but, nevertheless, the country should mimic this form of government as closely as possible. He proposed, therefore, to have a President and elected Senators for life, with possibility of removal for corruption or abuse. He also discussed abolition of autonomous state governments.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Hamilton

This time I am responsible for the bold type.

 

[AllieBaba]

The most vocal opponent of Federalism was Thomas Jefferson, the poster boy for Liberalism.

And a slave owner! Whatdya know!

 

[M14 Shooter]

Yes, they wanted a government strong enough to survive.

That's right -- "strong" as compared to the government under the Articles.

Again, something that even the dimmest among us should have picked up.
Again, this goes a long way to explain why manifold doesn't get it.

 

[AllieBaba]

You'd think they'd also pick up that Jefferson was considered a liberal...compared to monarchists.

 

[manifold]

...or does anyone else think it's a hoot watching dumb and dumber here blow ignorant, fallacious sunshine up each other's assholes? Oh shit, some other retard agrees with me, I must be right!

 

[ReillyT]

That's right -- "strong" as compared to the government under the Articles.

Again, something that even the dimmest among us should have picked up.
Again, this goes a long way to explain why manifold doesn't get it.

Many of the creators of the Constitution certainly sought to create a government stronger than the Articles of Confederation. Some of them wanted a central government that was very strong. Others, not so much.

 

[ReillyT]

...or does anyone else think it's a hoot watching dumb and dumber here blow ignorant, fallacious sunshine up each other's assholes? Oh shit, some other retard agrees with me, I must be right!

You should peruse one of the gun threads. That is fascinating.

 

[M14 Shooter]

The Dictionary should be sufficient, but here is an excerpt from Federalist Paper 23.

Yes.

Every view we may take of the subject, as candid inquirers after truth, will serve to convince us, that it is both unwise and dangerous to deny the federal government an unconfined authority, as to all those objects which are intrusted to its management.

The relevance of this then hinges not on his position that the Federal government have 'unconfined authority' but rather the question of what 'objects' are to be entrusted to the management of the federal government.

 

[ReillyT]

Yes.


The relevance of this then hinges not on his position that the Federal government have 'unconfined authority' but rather the question of what 'objects' are to be entrusted to the management of the federal government.

After what you have seen, do we really need to debate whether Hamilton favored a system with a strong national government and weak state governments?

I am willing to do more research to prove this, but not for nothing. How about we put some money on it?

 

[M14 Shooter]

After what you have seen, do we really need to debate whether Hamilton favored a system with a strong national government and weak state governments?

I'm more than willing to admit that there was variance among the FFs as to how strong they thought the Federal governent should be, as compared to the states.

 

[ReillyT]

I'm more than willing to admit that there was variance among the FFs as to how strong they thought the Federal governent should be, as compared to the states.

Cool. We're set.

 

[Ravi]

Can't have it both ways. When I stated that today's liberals are a whole different animal from the "liberal" founding fathers, the libs here wouldn't have it. We were founded by libs, by golly! When I pointed out that in today's political climate, if we plopped the founding fathers down amongst us, they'd be far right conservatives, libs sneered.

So now, faced with hard evidence of Democratic policies which erode at civil rights, you want to claim that those Dems and today's dems are different?

Funny.

How about some examples?

 

[Ravi]

I only need to show that the basic tenets of liberalism and socialism are more or less the same.

And yet you cannot even do that.

 

[AllieBaba]

...or does anyone else think it's a hoot watching dumb and dumber here blow ignorant, fallacious sunshine up each other's assholes? Oh shit, some other retard agrees with me, I must be right!

Yet next to you, we look like Rhodes scholars. Remember, with liberalism it's all about relativism.

 

[midcan5]

I dont need to do that in order for my equation to be true.
I only need to show that the basic tenets of liberalism and socialism are more or less the same.

Have you shown that? I missed it.

 

[manifold]

Have you shown that? I missed it.

Like the politicians he idolizes, he thinks that if he repeats the same lie over and over again, it becomes truth.

 

[M14 Shooter]

And yet you cannot even do that.

Absolutely, I can.

 

[T-Bor]

I think a republican was the first one to screw a monkey and introduce aids to the world.

 

[Ravi]

Absolutely, I can.

Then do it.