Abortion is murder

[ding]

I got that. But you are saying in this thread that since it is lawful to end the life of a baby in the womb it is ok. I am merely trying to understand if that same logic would apply to slavery. Do you just blindly agree with everything your government tells you?

The SCOTUS ruled in favor of slavery comparison is useless as you can apply that to anything. Such as ... the SCOTUS says murder is illegal, but is it? After all, they ruled in favor of slavery at one time. They say marriage is a right, but is it? After all, they ruled in favor of slavery at one time.

So where it stands as that we, as a society determine what is and is not murder, the illegal killing of another human being. And our society, at this time, decides abortion is not murder.

Personally, I'm against abortion and I'm thankful my wife did not have one when she suffered a serious complication while carrying one of our kids, when abortion was an option; who is, thank G-d, alive and healthy.

But I don't impose my beliefs on others when our society decides abortion is not murder.

No. They ruled on slavery only one time. It took the 13th Amendment to reverse it and then the 14th and 15th Amendment to force the Democrats to treat them as citizens. I'm happy for you and your wife, but the reality is that morals are not relative. Slavery was wrong then. It was always wrong and it will always be wrong. Same thing goes for abortion. Mind you I am not advocating for making abortion illegal, I am advocating that we stop pretending like it is a good thing. I am advocating that we admit that we are ending a human life, most of the time for selfish reasons and that we stop rationalizing that we aren't violating the Law of Right and Wrong. Apparently, I am asking for too much.

I couldn't help to see how you spelled God. There was a time when Jews were not seen as human beings either and we know what happened to them. I don't see any difference here.I wonder what would have happened back then if people had spoken out against it?

One othe thing to think about, if abortion is not morally wrong, then forced abortions for the good of the country or the world would also not be morally wrong. Normalization of deviance is a slippery slope.

I feel nothing but sympathy for those who can't see the difference between this...

Ending any human life for selfish reasons is wrong.

in your opinion.

this isn't about your OPINION... its about what government has the right to do....
i love when theocrats think gubmint is supposed to tell women what to do.

you can always live in iran if you want to live in a theocracy.

I am not making a religious argument. Most people are born with an innate sense of right and wrong. I am making a scientific argument that human life begins at conception. I am making a common sense argument that it is wrong to end a human life. My proof for this is that women struggle with their decision to end their baby's life because they know it is wrong. Why don't you?

 

[Faun]

The slavery thread is over yonder -->

This is the abortion thread.

I got that. But you are saying in this thread that since it is lawful to end the life of a baby in the womb it is ok. I am merely trying to understand if that same logic would apply to slavery. Do you just blindly agree with everything your government tells you?

The SCOTUS ruled in favor of slavery comparison is useless as you can apply that to anything. Such as ... the SCOTUS says murder is illegal, but is it? After all, they ruled in favor of slavery at one time. They say marriage is a right, but is it? After all, they ruled in favor of slavery at one time.

So where it stands as that we, as a society determine what is and is not murder, the illegal killing of another human being. And our society, at this time, decides abortion is not murder.

Personally, I'm against abortion and I'm thankful my wife did not have one when she suffered a serious complication while carrying one of our kids, when abortion was an option; who is, thank G-d, alive and healthy.

But I don't impose my beliefs on others when our society decides abortion is not murder.

No. They ruled on slavery only one time. It took the 13th Amendment to reverse it and then the 14th and 15th Amendment to force the Democrats to treat them as citizens. I'm happy for you and your wife, but the reality is that morals are not relative. Slavery was wrong then. It was always wrong and it will always be wrong. Same thing goes for abortion. Mind you I am not advocating for making abortion illegal, I am advocating that we stop pretending like it is a good thing. I am advocating that we admit that we are ending a human life, most of the time for selfish reasons and that we stop rationalizing that we aren't violating the Law of Right and Wrong. Apparently, I am asking for too much.

I couldn't help to see how you spelled God. There was a time when Jews were not seen as human beings either and we know what happened to them. I don't see any difference here.I wonder what would have happened back then if people had spoken out against it?

One othe thing to think about, if abortion is not morally wrong, then forced abortions for the good of the country or the world would also not be morally wrong. Normalization of deviance is a slippery slope.

I feel nothing but sympathy for those who can't see the difference between this...

... and this ...

Ending any human life for selfish reasons is wrong.

We decide that as a society. And as a society, we've decided there are exceptions.

In regards to this thread -- legal abortions are not murder.

 

[ding]

I got that. But you are saying in this thread that since it is lawful to end the life of a baby in the womb it is ok. I am merely trying to understand if that same logic would apply to slavery. Do you just blindly agree with everything your government tells you?

The SCOTUS ruled in favor of slavery comparison is useless as you can apply that to anything. Such as ... the SCOTUS says murder is illegal, but is it? After all, they ruled in favor of slavery at one time. They say marriage is a right, but is it? After all, they ruled in favor of slavery at one time.

So where it stands as that we, as a society determine what is and is not murder, the illegal killing of another human being. And our society, at this time, decides abortion is not murder.

Personally, I'm against abortion and I'm thankful my wife did not have one when she suffered a serious complication while carrying one of our kids, when abortion was an option; who is, thank G-d, alive and healthy.

But I don't impose my beliefs on others when our society decides abortion is not murder.

No. They ruled on slavery only one time. It took the 13th Amendment to reverse it and then the 14th and 15th Amendment to force the Democrats to treat them as citizens. I'm happy for you and your wife, but the reality is that morals are not relative. Slavery was wrong then. It was always wrong and it will always be wrong. Same thing goes for abortion. Mind you I am not advocating for making abortion illegal, I am advocating that we stop pretending like it is a good thing. I am advocating that we admit that we are ending a human life, most of the time for selfish reasons and that we stop rationalizing that we aren't violating the Law of Right and Wrong. Apparently, I am asking for too much.

I couldn't help to see how you spelled God. There was a time when Jews were not seen as human beings either and we know what happened to them. I don't see any difference here.I wonder what would have happened back then if people had spoken out against it?

One othe thing to think about, if abortion is not morally wrong, then forced abortions for the good of the country or the world would also not be morally wrong. Normalization of deviance is a slippery slope.

I feel nothing but sympathy for those who can't see the difference between this...

... and this ...

Ending any human life for selfish reasons is wrong.

We decide that as a society. And as a society, we've decided there are exceptions.

In regards to this thread -- legal abortions are not murder.

So if society decided that forced abortions should be legal for the good of the people, you would be ok with that?

 

[Faun]

Agreed, but it's a lie he keeps pushing. I've agreed with him several times about this point then asked him to prove a zygote is a human being. He dodges the answer (just like he dodges questions about his dislike of the US military) then goes back to falsely accusing those who disagree with him for not being "scientific" and not believing human life begins at conception. Like PC, I think he's a bit of a whackadoodle....which would explain why he couldn't get in the military even if he tried.

I did prove that science has determined that a zygote is a human being. You refused to accept the evidence.

It's still not murder.

And blacks were not property to be disposed of at the will of its owner even though the law said that too was legal, right?

So? Laws change. There was a time abortion was illegal.

Sure. laws change. Right and wrong doesn't.

Goes without saying -- you're not the judge of right and wrong for the rest of society.

 

[Faun]

.

Now, why is it that you don't believe human life begins at conception?

the point people are trying to make with you is that all life begins at conception, or is there a difference with you ...

.

Agreed, but it's a lie he keeps pushing. I've agreed with him several times about this point then asked him to prove a zygote is a human being. He dodges the answer (just like he dodges questions about his dislike of the US military) then goes back to falsely accusing those who disagree with him for not being "scientific" and not believing human life begins at conception. Like PC, I think he's a bit of a whackadoodle....which would explain why he couldn't get in the military even if he tried.

I did prove that science has determined that a zygote is a human being. You refused to accept the evidence.

It's still not murder.

Not according to the laws today. That still does not make it the right thing to do.

It's not right for you. It's also not right for me. We don't speak for others.

 

[ding]

I did prove that science has determined that a zygote is a human being. You refused to accept the evidence.

It's still not murder.

And blacks were not property to be disposed of at the will of its owner even though the law said that too was legal, right?

So? Laws change. There was a time abortion was illegal.

Sure. laws change. Right and wrong doesn't.

Goes without saying -- you're not the judge of right and wrong for the rest of society.

I couldn't tell from your answer if you believe that it would be right to have forced abortions if our society decided that forced abortions should be legal for the good of the people. A simple yes or no would suffice. Well... would you? Don't be afraid to answer. After all this is the logical conclusion of your belief that we decide things as a society.

 

[Faun]

The SCOTUS ruled in favor of slavery comparison is useless as you can apply that to anything. Such as ... the SCOTUS says murder is illegal, but is it? After all, they ruled in favor of slavery at one time. They say marriage is a right, but is it? After all, they ruled in favor of slavery at one time.

So where it stands as that we, as a society determine what is and is not murder, the illegal killing of another human being. And our society, at this time, decides abortion is not murder.

Personally, I'm against abortion and I'm thankful my wife did not have one when she suffered a serious complication while carrying one of our kids, when abortion was an option; who is, thank G-d, alive and healthy.

But I don't impose my beliefs on others when our society decides abortion is not murder.

No. They ruled on slavery only one time. It took the 13th Amendment to reverse it and then the 14th and 15th Amendment to force the Democrats to treat them as citizens. I'm happy for you and your wife, but the reality is that morals are not relative. Slavery was wrong then. It was always wrong and it will always be wrong. Same thing goes for abortion. Mind you I am not advocating for making abortion illegal, I am advocating that we stop pretending like it is a good thing. I am advocating that we admit that we are ending a human life, most of the time for selfish reasons and that we stop rationalizing that we aren't violating the Law of Right and Wrong. Apparently, I am asking for too much.

I couldn't help to see how you spelled God. There was a time when Jews were not seen as human beings either and we know what happened to them. I don't see any difference here.I wonder what would have happened back then if people had spoken out against it?

One othe thing to think about, if abortion is not morally wrong, then forced abortions for the good of the country or the world would also not be morally wrong. Normalization of deviance is a slippery slope.

I feel nothing but sympathy for those who can't see the difference between this...

... and this ...

Ending any human life for selfish reasons is wrong.

We decide that as a society. And as a society, we've decided there are exceptions.

In regards to this thread -- legal abortions are not murder.

So if society decided that forced abortions should be legal for the good of the people, you would be ok with that?

No, I personally would not be ok with that. But we are a self-governing society and we are a nation of laws; and not everyone is going to be "ok" with every law.

 

[ding]

.
the point people are trying to make with you is that all life begins at conception, or is there a difference with you ...

.

Agreed, but it's a lie he keeps pushing. I've agreed with him several times about this point then asked him to prove a zygote is a human being. He dodges the answer (just like he dodges questions about his dislike of the US military) then goes back to falsely accusing those who disagree with him for not being "scientific" and not believing human life begins at conception. Like PC, I think he's a bit of a whackadoodle....which would explain why he couldn't get in the military even if he tried.

I did prove that science has determined that a zygote is a human being. You refused to accept the evidence.

It's still not murder.

Not according to the laws today. That still does not make it the right thing to do.

It's not right for you. It's also not right for me. We don't speak for others.

I see you edited your response from, "Goes without saying -- you're not the judge of right and wrong for the rest of society." to "It's not right for you. It's also not right for me. We don't speak for others"

I'm not asking you to speak for others. I am asking you to speak for yourself. You have said that you don't believe it is murder to abort a living human being in the womb because it is not unlawful. I am asking you if you would feel the same way if society decided that it was not unlawful to have forced abortions? Well... would you?

 

[ding]

No. They ruled on slavery only one time. It took the 13th Amendment to reverse it and then the 14th and 15th Amendment to force the Democrats to treat them as citizens. I'm happy for you and your wife, but the reality is that morals are not relative. Slavery was wrong then. It was always wrong and it will always be wrong. Same thing goes for abortion. Mind you I am not advocating for making abortion illegal, I am advocating that we stop pretending like it is a good thing. I am advocating that we admit that we are ending a human life, most of the time for selfish reasons and that we stop rationalizing that we aren't violating the Law of Right and Wrong. Apparently, I am asking for too much.

I couldn't help to see how you spelled God. There was a time when Jews were not seen as human beings either and we know what happened to them. I don't see any difference here.I wonder what would have happened back then if people had spoken out against it?

One othe thing to think about, if abortion is not morally wrong, then forced abortions for the good of the country or the world would also not be morally wrong. Normalization of deviance is a slippery slope.

I feel nothing but sympathy for those who can't see the difference between this...

... and this ...

Ending any human life for selfish reasons is wrong.

We decide that as a society. And as a society, we've decided there are exceptions.

In regards to this thread -- legal abortions are not murder.

So if society decided that forced abortions should be legal for the good of the people, you would be ok with that?

No, I personally would not be ok with that. But we are a self-governing society and we are a nation of laws; and not everyone is going to be "ok" with every law.

I see that you edited your position again. Now you are stating that you would not be personally ok with forced abortions if society deemed that it was lawful and in the best interest of society. Is that your final answer? Ok, so would you recognize that as murder then?

 

[Faun]

Agreed, but it's a lie he keeps pushing. I've agreed with him several times about this point then asked him to prove a zygote is a human being. He dodges the answer (just like he dodges questions about his dislike of the US military) then goes back to falsely accusing those who disagree with him for not being "scientific" and not believing human life begins at conception. Like PC, I think he's a bit of a whackadoodle....which would explain why he couldn't get in the military even if he tried.

I did prove that science has determined that a zygote is a human being. You refused to accept the evidence.

It's still not murder.

Not according to the laws today. That still does not make it the right thing to do.

It's not right for you. It's also not right for me. We don't speak for others.

I see you edited your response from, "Goes without saying -- you're not the judge of right and wrong for the rest of society." to "It's not right for you. It's also not right for me. We don't speak for others"

I'm not asking you to speak for others. I am asking you to speak for yourself. You have said that you don't believe it is murder to abort a living human being in the womb because it is not unlawful. I am asking you if you would feel the same way if society decided that it was not unlawful to have forced abortions? Well... would you?

That's not an edit. Both statements are true. You're not the judge of right and wrong for society AND you're entitled to judge for yourself what you believe is right and wrong AND you don't speak for others.

As far as forced abortions, under what circumstances would they be forced and who would impose such forced abortions?

 

[ding]

I did prove that science has determined that a zygote is a human being. You refused to accept the evidence.

It's still not murder.

Not according to the laws today. That still does not make it the right thing to do.

It's not right for you. It's also not right for me. We don't speak for others.

I see you edited your response from, "Goes without saying -- you're not the judge of right and wrong for the rest of society." to "It's not right for you. It's also not right for me. We don't speak for others"

I'm not asking you to speak for others. I am asking you to speak for yourself. You have said that you don't believe it is murder to abort a living human being in the womb because it is not unlawful. I am asking you if you would feel the same way if society decided that it was not unlawful to have forced abortions? Well... would you?

That's not an edit. Both statements are true. You're not the judge of right and wrong for society AND you're entitled to judge for yourself what you believe is right and wrong AND you don't speak for others.

As far as forced abortions, under what circumstances would they be forced and who would impose such forced abortions?

1. Too many people on the planet causing increased global warming emissions
2. The people elected representatives who passed this law just like they do now. SCOTUS ruled that it was lawful to do so.

Yes, I don't speak for others, but I do live in a shared society with shared consequences. I am not the judge of anyone but myself. I have free will in my choices. I can choose to comply with laws or not to comply with laws. I understand that I am accountable for my actions and that my actions do have consequences. I believe that people should follow the dictate of their consciences despite the letter of the law or the consequences to themselves.

 

[Faun]

It's still not murder.

Not according to the laws today. That still does not make it the right thing to do.

It's not right for you. It's also not right for me. We don't speak for others.

I see you edited your response from, "Goes without saying -- you're not the judge of right and wrong for the rest of society." to "It's not right for you. It's also not right for me. We don't speak for others"

I'm not asking you to speak for others. I am asking you to speak for yourself. You have said that you don't believe it is murder to abort a living human being in the womb because it is not unlawful. I am asking you if you would feel the same way if society decided that it was not unlawful to have forced abortions? Well... would you?

That's not an edit. Both statements are true. You're not the judge of right and wrong for society AND you're entitled to judge for yourself what you believe is right and wrong AND you don't speak for others.

As far as forced abortions, under what circumstances would they be forced and who would impose such forced abortions?

1. Too many people on the planet causing increased global warming emissions
2. The people elected representatives who passed this law just like they do now. SCOTUS ruled that it was lawful to do so.

Yes, I don't speak for others, but I do live in a shared society with shared consequences. I am not the judge of anyone but myself. I have free will in my choices. I can choose to comply with laws or not to comply with laws. I understand that I am accountable for my actions and that my actions do have consequences. I believe that people should follow the dictate of their consciences despite the letter of the law or the consequences to themselves.

That would be wrong.

 

[ding]

Not according to the laws today. That still does not make it the right thing to do.

It's not right for you. It's also not right for me. We don't speak for others.

I see you edited your response from, "Goes without saying -- you're not the judge of right and wrong for the rest of society." to "It's not right for you. It's also not right for me. We don't speak for others"

I'm not asking you to speak for others. I am asking you to speak for yourself. You have said that you don't believe it is murder to abort a living human being in the womb because it is not unlawful. I am asking you if you would feel the same way if society decided that it was not unlawful to have forced abortions? Well... would you?

That's not an edit. Both statements are true. You're not the judge of right and wrong for society AND you're entitled to judge for yourself what you believe is right and wrong AND you don't speak for others.

As far as forced abortions, under what circumstances would they be forced and who would impose such forced abortions?

1. Too many people on the planet causing increased global warming emissions
2. The people elected representatives who passed this law just like they do now. SCOTUS ruled that it was lawful to do so.

Yes, I don't speak for others, but I do live in a shared society with shared consequences. I am not the judge of anyone but myself. I have free will in my choices. I can choose to comply with laws or not to comply with laws. I understand that I am accountable for my actions and that my actions do have consequences. I believe that people should follow the dictate of their consciences despite the letter of the law or the consequences to themselves.

That would be wrong.

Wrong, but legal, right?

 

[Faun]

It's not right for you. It's also not right for me. We don't speak for others.

I see you edited your response from, "Goes without saying -- you're not the judge of right and wrong for the rest of society." to "It's not right for you. It's also not right for me. We don't speak for others"

I'm not asking you to speak for others. I am asking you to speak for yourself. You have said that you don't believe it is murder to abort a living human being in the womb because it is not unlawful. I am asking you if you would feel the same way if society decided that it was not unlawful to have forced abortions? Well... would you?

That's not an edit. Both statements are true. You're not the judge of right and wrong for society AND you're entitled to judge for yourself what you believe is right and wrong AND you don't speak for others.

As far as forced abortions, under what circumstances would they be forced and who would impose such forced abortions?

1. Too many people on the planet causing increased global warming emissions
2. The people elected representatives who passed this law just like they do now. SCOTUS ruled that it was lawful to do so.

Yes, I don't speak for others, but I do live in a shared society with shared consequences. I am not the judge of anyone but myself. I have free will in my choices. I can choose to comply with laws or not to comply with laws. I understand that I am accountable for my actions and that my actions do have consequences. I believe that people should follow the dictate of their consciences despite the letter of the law or the consequences to themselves.

That would be wrong.

Wrong, but legal, right?

Yes, wrong but legal but not Constitutional, so it would not stand.

 

[BreezeWood]

.

Now, why is it that you don't believe human life begins at conception?

the point people are trying to make with you is that all life begins at conception, or is there a difference with you ...

.

Yes. All life does begin at conception because it does meet the definition of a living thing.

.
ding: Yes. All life does begin at conception because it does meet the definition of a living thing.


that's not what you were asked ....

the point people are trying to make with you is that all life begins at conception, or is there a difference with you ...

are humans living things ....

.

 

[MaryL]

Life begins at conception? what about the living cells that make the spermatozoa or the egg? That begs the question about "conception" , WHAT makes one second before different from one second after? Weren't the sperm and egg equally alive before conception, too?

 

[Divine Wind]

It's all a very large crock of shit fabricated by smart, devious men in order to con folks out of 10% of their worth. What a bunch of dumbasses!

How sad that you believe the vast majority of human beings are both dumber and inferior to you. What is your IQ and material value? Is it in the 1%?

 

[Divine Wind]

.

Now, why is it that you don't believe human life begins at conception?

the point people are trying to make with you is that all life begins at conception, or is there a difference with you ...

.

Agreed, but it's a lie he keeps pushing. I've agreed with him several times about this point then asked him to prove a zygote is a human being. He dodges the answer (just like he dodges questions about his dislike of the US military) then goes back to falsely accusing those who disagree with him for not being "scientific" and not believing human life begins at conception. Like PC, I think he's a bit of a whackadoodle....which would explain why he couldn't get in the military even if he tried.

I did prove that science has determined that a zygote is a human being. You refused to accept the evidence.

"After fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being...[this] is no longer a matter of taste or opinion, it is not a metaphysical contention, it is plain experimental evidence...." - Dr Jerome LeJeune, Professor of Genetics at the University of Descartes, Paris, discoverer of the chromosome pattern of Down's Syndrome, and Nobel Prize Winner

"An individual human life begins at conception when a sperm cell from the father fuses with an egg cell from the mother, to form a new cell, the zygote, the first embryonic stage. The zygote grows and divides into two daughter cells, each of which grows and divides into two grand-daughter cells, and this cell growth/division process continues on, over and over again. The zygote is the start of a biological continuum that automatically grows and develops, passing gradually and sequentially through the stages we call foetus, baby, child, adult, old person and ending eventually in death. The full genetic instructions to guide the development of the continuum, in interaction with its environment, are present in the zygote. Every stage along the continuum is biologically human and each point along the continuum has the full human properties appropriate to that point." Dr. William Reville, University College Cork, Ireland

“….it is scientifically correct to say that human life begins at conception.” Dr. Micheline Matthews-Roth, Harvard Medical School: Quoted by Public Affairs Council

“Human life begins when the ovum is fertilized and the new combined cell mass begins to divide.” Dr. Jasper Williams, Former President of the National Medical Association (p 74)

Obviously you don't understand science as well as you think you do.

So when will you be honest enough to tell me why you hate the military?

 

[ding]

I see you edited your response from, "Goes without saying -- you're not the judge of right and wrong for the rest of society." to "It's not right for you. It's also not right for me. We don't speak for others"

I'm not asking you to speak for others. I am asking you to speak for yourself. You have said that you don't believe it is murder to abort a living human being in the womb because it is not unlawful. I am asking you if you would feel the same way if society decided that it was not unlawful to have forced abortions? Well... would you?

That's not an edit. Both statements are true. You're not the judge of right and wrong for society AND you're entitled to judge for yourself what you believe is right and wrong AND you don't speak for others.

As far as forced abortions, under what circumstances would they be forced and who would impose such forced abortions?

1. Too many people on the planet causing increased global warming emissions
2. The people elected representatives who passed this law just like they do now. SCOTUS ruled that it was lawful to do so.

Yes, I don't speak for others, but I do live in a shared society with shared consequences. I am not the judge of anyone but myself. I have free will in my choices. I can choose to comply with laws or not to comply with laws. I understand that I am accountable for my actions and that my actions do have consequences. I believe that people should follow the dictate of their consciences despite the letter of the law or the consequences to themselves.

That would be wrong.

Wrong, but legal, right?

Yes, wrong but legal but not Constitutional, so it would not stand.

They could always write a Constitutional Amendment, right? Then it would be legal and Constitutional, right?

 

[ding]

Life begins at conception? what about the living cells that make the spermatozoa or the egg? That begs the question about "conception" , WHAT makes one second before different from one second after? Weren't the sperm and egg equally alive before conception, too?

DNA says they are not a NEW human being.