A serious question about Jewish history

[editec]

I am saying that anti-semitism was well established and a part of european culture centuries before Muhammad was born or there were any muslims.

Since the OP has basically asked for the root cause of hatred towards the jews.

Then we must look at christian europe and not arabia.........

One can ONLY do that if one does not know about the problems that The Prophet himself had with the Jews of the Medina.

But your point is largely correct, I think.

Often (depending on what time and place you're talking about) Jews thrived under Moslem rule in ways they did NOT under Christendom.

Of course they were second class citizens in most time and places, but then too so were most non Moslems living under the yoke of Islam.

As were most NONChristians living under the yoke of Chistendom.

Such was the TYPICAL behavior of all Abrahamic religions when they were in charge.

 

[Intense]

I am saying that anti-semitism was well established and a part of european culture centuries before Muhammad was born or there were any muslims.

Since the OP has basically asked for the root cause of hatred towards the jews.

Then we must look at christian europe and not arabia.........

One can ONLY do that if one does not know about the problems that The Prophet himself had with the Jews of the Medina.

But your point is largely correct, I think.

Often (depending on what time and place you're talking about) Jews thrived under Moslem rule in ways they did NOT under Christendom.

Of course they were second class citizens in most time and places, but then too so were most non Moslems living under the yoke of Islam.

As were most NONChristians living under the yoke of Chistendom.

Such was the TYPICAL behavior of all Abrahamic religions when they were in charge.

I think you are confusing cultural influences and effects with doctrine. It is Man's nature, not virtues or spiritual truths that war with justice and fair play.

 

[Intense]

Polonius:
Neither a borrower nor a lender be,
For loan oft loses both itself and friend,
And borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry.
Hamlet Act 1, scene 3, 75–77

Neither a borrower nor a lender be - Shakespeare Quotes

Seriously..... is there a quicker way to risk losing a friendship?

If you really, really, want to get rid of someone, lend them money.

Why is it in our nature to have disdain for those we are indebted to?

That is the real question concerning the effects of borrowing and lending.

 

[MHunterB]

And when you're a non-Jewish ruler and the folks you owe money to are Jews - then you have your religious 'leaders' start shrieking about 'usury' and 'witchcraft'!!! Yes: money is a dead thing, ut those Jews made it grow somehow (interest): that's unnatural, its against God....we have to get rid of them NOW before (the next payment comes due!)

So the preachers agitate, and the populace riots - and the Jews come to the ruler seeking protection..... Which is granted ONLY after they agree to not collect on the ruler's debt. And then, taking a 'gift' for his 'generosity', the ruler lets them leave his demesne.....

 

[MHunterB]

Why Do People Hate The Jews?

I found this an interesting read.....perhaps others will as well.

 

[SAYIT]

ABS hit the nail on the head. And God's prophesy about Ishmael being a wild ass whose hand would be against everyone, was never more apparent than now.
The only thing that the Muslims hate more than each other is the Jew. And us.

XXXXXXX

Here is the verse:

Genesis 16:12 "He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers."

1) The prophecy only talks about Ishmael and says nothing about his children, grandchildren, or descendants.....just him.

2) It says nothing about muslims.

3) Only 25% of muslims in the world are arabs.....who are descends of Ishmael.

Yet, you take that verse in Genesis and apply it to all muslims of today......asians, africans, and other people; who have no connections to the middle east or arabs.

Very dishonest...........

You mean like a poster who "borrows" the work of others without crediting his source.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/clean...stion-about-jewish-history-3.html#post6911897

That's very dishonest.

 

[The Irish Ram]

ABS hit the nail on the head. And God's prophesy about Ishmael being a wild ass whose hand would be against everyone, was never more apparent than now.
The only thing that the Muslims hate more than each other is the Jew. And us.

XXXXXXX

Here is the verse:

Genesis 16:12 "He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers."

1) The prophecy only talks about Ishmael and says nothing about his children, grandchildren, or descendants.....just him.

2) It says nothing about muslims.

3) Only 25% of muslims in the world are arabs.....who are descends of Ishmael.

Yet, you take that verse in Genesis and apply it to all muslims of today......asians, africans, and other people; who have no connections to the middle east or arabs.

Very dishonest...........

Honest. It's generational.
God, the same God Hagar called out to, said that Abraham would be the father of many nations.
1. Israel
2.
3.
4.............

 

[Sunni Man]

ABS hit the nail on the head. And God's prophesy about Ishmael being a wild ass whose hand would be against everyone, was never more apparent than now.
The only thing that the Muslims hate more than each other is the Jew. And us.

XXXXXXX

Here is the verse:

Genesis 16:12 "He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers."

1) The prophecy only talks about Ishmael and says nothing about his children, grandchildren, or descendants.....just him.

2) It says nothing about muslims

3) Only 25% of muslims in the world are arabs.....who are descendents of Ishmael.

Yet, you take that verse in Genesis and apply it to all muslims of today......asians, africans, and other people; who have no connections to the middle east or arabs.

Very dishonest...........

Honest. It's generational.

Then please provide the verses which shows Ishmael's descendents would inherit his behavior?

And that it is generational? .........

 

[SAYIT]

I am saying that anti-semitism was well established and a part of european culture centuries before Muhammad was born or there were any muslims.

Since the OP has basically asked for the root cause of hatred towards the jews.

Then we must look at christian europe and not arabia.........

But what is the root cause of Arab/Muslim hatred towards Jews and how does it differ from the European/Christian version?

 

[Indofred]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm looking for a real answer to a serious question.

Jewish Persecution | Timeline of Judaism | History of AntiSemitism

The second event in the link is:

224 C.E. Italy Forced Conversion

I can find nothing, not a sausage,bugger all.
The forced conversion wasn't to Christianity as the Romans of the time were using Christians as lion food and street lighting so I looked for forced conversion to paganism in as many search strings as I could think of.
Still nothing.

Can anyone help with this one?

 

[editec]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm looking for a real answer to a serious question.

Jewish Persecution | Timeline of Judaism | History of AntiSemitism

The second event in the link is:

224 C.E. Italy Forced Conversion

I can find nothing, not a sausage,bugger all.
The forced conversion wasn't to Christianity as the Romans of the time were using Christians as lion food and street lighting so I looked for forced conversion to paganism in as many search strings as I could think of.
Still nothing.

Can anyone help with this one?

Well WESTERN Rome was falling apart in the third century CE, and Christendom had taken hold somewhat, so it might be possible that in some areas some of the landed gentry that still had some authority locally MIGHT have forced coversions of EVERYBODY to Christendom.

And IF that happened, it was probably as much an issue of TAXATION as theology.

Because for the Romans, religion was the method by which taxes were collected.

So one can definitely imagine that people might have been forced to pay taxes to some Christian chuches as an act of fealty to whomever was in charge of that area.

 

[SAYIT]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SERIOUS ANSWERS ONLY as this is in CLEAN DEBATE for exactly that reason.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm looking for a real answer to a serious question.

Jewish Persecution | Timeline of Judaism | History of AntiSemitism

The second event in the link is:

224 C.E. Italy Forced Conversion

I can find nothing, not a sausage,bugger all.
The forced conversion wasn't to Christianity as the Romans of the time were using Christians as lion food and street lighting so I looked for forced conversion to paganism in as many search strings as I could think of.
Still nothing.

Can anyone help with this one?

Well WESTERN Rome was falling apart in the third century CE, and Christendom had taken hold somewhat, so it might be possible that in some areas some of the landed gentry that still had some authority locally MIGHT have forced coversions of EVERYBODY to Christendom.

And IF that happened, it was probably as much an issue of TAXATION as theology.

Because for the Romans, religion was the method by which taxes were collected.

So one can definitely imagine that people might have been forced to pay taxes to some Christian chuches as an act of fealty to whomever was in charge of that area.

I'm pretty certain at least some of the expulsions were not fueled by hate but rather used anti-Semitism for justification.

 

[Sunni Man]

I'm pretty certain at least some of the expulsions were not fueled by hate but rather used anti-Semitism for justification.

True, anti-semitism does not equal hate.

It's really more of a dislike of the jews and not wanting to associate with them.........

 

[editec]

The second event in the link is:

224 C.E. Italy Forced Conversion

I can find nothing, not a sausage,bugger all.
The forced conversion wasn't to Christianity as the Romans of the time were using Christians as lion food and street lighting so I looked for forced conversion to paganism in as many search strings as I could think of.
Still nothing.

Can anyone help with this one?

Well WESTERN Rome was falling apart in the third century CE, and Christendom had taken hold somewhat, so it might be possible that in some areas some of the landed gentry that still had some authority locally MIGHT have forced coversions of EVERYBODY to Christendom.

And IF that happened, it was probably as much an issue of TAXATION as theology.

Because for the Romans, religion was the method by which taxes were collected.

So one can definitely imagine that people might have been forced to pay taxes to some Christian chuches as an act of fealty to whomever was in charge of that area.

I'm pretty certain at least some of the expulsions were not fueled by hate but rather used anti-Semitism for justification.

Oh I wouldn't doubt that, either.

The question in this case is not why it happened but IF it happened.

 

[ima]

Well WESTERN Rome was falling apart in the third century CE, and Christendom had taken hold somewhat, so it might be possible that in some areas some of the landed gentry that still had some authority locally MIGHT have forced coversions of EVERYBODY to Christendom.

And IF that happened, it was probably as much an issue of TAXATION as theology.

Because for the Romans, religion was the method by which taxes were collected.

So one can definitely imagine that people might have been forced to pay taxes to some Christian chuches as an act of fealty to whomever was in charge of that area.

I'm pretty certain at least some of the expulsions were not fueled by hate but rather used anti-Semitism for justification.

Oh I wouldn't doubt that, either.

The question in this case is not why it happened but IF it happened.

Probably fueled by plain old greed. Kick them out and take their stuff. Like I said, persecution of minorities isn't limited to Jews. Plus, I already gave you links to why you muslims HAVE to hate Jews.

 

[Annika55]

I've been a little too busy with work related stuff to do as much research as I want on this tread but I've bookmarked it for a time when I have.
I intend to find out as much as I can about the general social situation and that regarding Jews in the areas where massacres and so on took place.
That way, I hope to see if there were any common factors before each incidence.
As for Zionism/Israel, that may well be at least a partial cause to today's hate but it doesn't do much to explain the problems of old.

Working when I get time but I may be starting to lecture on new social studies course so I have to bone up on the course work before decide whether to take the seat or not.

I think these articles by two religious scholars provide an excellent and thorough analysis of the history of persecution of Jewish people.

Christian Persecution of Jews Over the Centuries

 

[Annika55]

109 Locations whence Jews have been Expelled since AD250


YEAR . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .PLACE

250 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Carthage
415 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Alexandria
554 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Diocèse of Clermont (France)
561 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Diocèse of Uzès (France)
612 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visigoth Spain
642 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visigoth Empire
855 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Italy
876 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Sens
1012 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
1182 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
1182 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Germany
1276 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Upper Bavaria
1290 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - England
1306 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
1322 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France (again)
1348 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Switzerland
1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hielbronn (Germany)
1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Saxony
1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
1360 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
1370 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Belgium
1380 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Slovakia
1388 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Strasbourg
1394 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Germany
1394 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
1420 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lyons
1421 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Austria
1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Fribourg
1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Zurich
1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Cologne
1432 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Savoy
1438 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
1439 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Augsburg
1442 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
1444 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
1446 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria
1453 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
1453 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Breslau
1454 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurzburg
1462 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
1483 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
1484 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Warsaw
1485 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vincenza (Italy)
1492 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Spain
1492 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Italy
1495 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lithuania
1496 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
1496 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Portugal
1498 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Nuremberg
1498 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Navarre
1510 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenberg
1510 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prussia
1514 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Strasbourg
1515 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Genoa
1519 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Regensburg
1533 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
1541 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
1542 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague & Bohemia
1550 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Genoa
1551 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria
1555 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Pesaro
1557 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague
1559 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Austria
1561 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague
1567 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurzburg
1569 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Papal States
1571 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenburg
1582 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
1582 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
1593 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenburg, Austria
1597 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Cremona, Pavia & Lodi
1614 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Frankfort
1615 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Worms
1619 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Kiev
1648 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Ukraine
1648 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Poland
1649 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hamburg
1654 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Little Russia (Beylorus)
1656 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lithuania
1669 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Oran (North Africa)
1669 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vienna
1670 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vienna
1712 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Sandomir
1727 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russia
1738 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurtemburg
1740 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Little Russia (Beylorus)
1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague, Bohemia
1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Slovakia
1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Livonia
1745 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Moravia
1753 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Kovad (Lithuania)
1761 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bordeaux
1772 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Deported to the Pale of
Settlement (Poland/Russia)
1775 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Warsaw
1789 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Alsace
1804 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Villages in Russia
1808 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Villages & Countrysides (Russia)
1815 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lbeck & Bremen
1815 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Franconia, Swabia & Bavaria
1820 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bremen
1843 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russian Border Austria & Prussia
1862 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Areas in the U.S. under General Grant's Jurisdiction[1]
1866 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Galatz, Romania
1880s - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russia
1891 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Moscow
1919 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria (foreign born Jews)
1938-45 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Nazi Controlled Areas
1948 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Arab Countries

I believe your mind is closed to any other explanations for Jewish persecution, but two religious scholars offer a thorough explanation for Jew hate at this website.
Christian Persecution of Jews Over the Centuries

 

[Annika55]

I agree that historically Jews were suspicious of outsiders (which may have been part of a survival mechanism), but I do not think Jews refuse to assimilate when they feel secure. I think it is important to point out that over HALF of Jews today are married to NON-JEWS and only a small minority of Jews practice the religion, belong to a synagogue, or attend a synagogue regularly. With these facts, I do not accept that Jewish culture teaches Jews to be arrogant or elitist. Most religions and ethnic groups do try to convey positive images about the group to younger members. Black History month is a way to develop PRIDE in being Black. Many Christian religious groups take pride in their own church while believing very negative things about other Christian groups. Many Muslims are very proud of their religion and culture
while believing other religions are not "true" religions and there has been
persecution of minority religious groups in Muslim lands. In other words, most religious and ethnic groups are really just as arrogant and haughty in their religious and ethnic beliefs. I've seen posters here remark on the bravery of Irish soldiers, on the artistic talent of Italians, and on the wisdom and accomplishments of the Greeks. For some reason, Jews seem to be singled out
for rather typical human behavior.

 

[MHunterB]

I'm pretty certain at least some of the expulsions were not fueled by hate but rather used anti-Semitism for justification.

True, anti-semitism does not equal hate.

It's really more of a dislike of the jews and not wanting to associate with them.........

I disagree: there are people who have never actually MET a Jew and 'dislike' Jews - or blacks, or Hispanics or whoever - so it's obviously based on hearsay and innuendo as opposed to fact and experience.

I suppose there are 'degrees' of bigotry and prejudice - but even a little 'dislike' without an immediate and factual basis is too much for my taste.

 

[iolo]

In addition to the traditional hatred of minorities and the traditional use of this by the extreme right, in Europe at least Jewish people have been forced to 'succeed' if they want to feel safe, and the more successful the better known (hungry East-End Jews are quite out of fashion). As a result, the inadequate and insecure tend to fear these powerful beings and want them expelled or destroyed. Aw a muddle!