A real step up, unlike EV's

[westwall]

Coming soon to a dealership near you, hydrogen powered cars! I can't wait!

At auto shows on two continents Wednesday, three automakers unveiled hydrogen fuel cell vehicles to be delivered to the general public as early as next spring.

Hyundai Motor Co. will be the first to the mass market in the U.S. It unveiled a hydrogen-powered Tucson small SUV at the Los Angeles Auto Show that will be leased to consumers. Honda also revealed plans in Los Angeles for a car due out in 2015. Earlier, at the Tokyo Motor Show, Toyota promised a mass-produced fuel cell car by 2015 in Japan and 2016 in the U.S.

Hydrogen cars are appealing because unlike electric vehicles, they have the range of a typical gasoline car and can be refueled quickly. Experts say the industry also has overcome safety and reliability concerns that have hindered distribution in the past.

But hydrogen cars still have a glaring downside — refueling stations are scarce, and costly to build.

Consumers can expect costs in line with some luxury models. In Tokyo, Toyota promised a price of $50,000 to $100,000, and as close to the lower figure as possible. That's comparable to its Lexus luxury sedans, but a range that makes the once space-age experiment with fuel cells more credible.

Hyundai said it will lease the Tucsons for $499 per month for three years with $3,000 down. And Hyundai is offering to pay the hydrogen and maintenance costs. The company will start leasing in the Los Angeles area, where most of the state's nine fueling stations are located. California lawmakers have allocated $100 million to build 100 more. Honda wouldn't reveal any pricing details.

Hydrogen cars could be headed to showroom near you - Yahoo Finance

 

[Mr. H.]

Looks to me like we're skipping a couple of steps. Like more diesel passenger cars and natural gas powered vehicles.

 

[westwall]

Looks to me like we're skipping a couple of steps. Like more diesel passenger cars and natural gas powered vehicles.

Not at all. Hydrogen vehicles will be more expensive and more difficult to use for a while. The TDI's and CNG vehicles will fill the gap quite nicely.

 

[Mr. H.]

The "gap"? You mean the 250 million vehicle "gap"?

 

[Abraham3]

That's not even an argument Mr H.

Hydrogen-fueled vehicles have been the only viable solution for some time. What I don't understand is why you (Westwall) should hold a favorable opinion towards your tax dollars being spent to support this transition.

 

[Mr. H.]

It's a statement, Mr. A.

The only viable "solution"? Solution to what?

 

[skookerasbil]

lmao.....nobody wants those gay cars......at least not Americans. They want cars.......like THIS >>>>

 

[Sunni Man]

I definitely don't want to be in a hydrogen fueled car accident. .

 

[Mr. H.]

lmao.....nobody wants those gay cars......at least not Americans. They want cars.......like THIS >>>>

Even this could run on natural gas.

 

[PMZ]

All alternatives are worth exploring. There will be more than one winner.

Nobody knows where further development in batteries or fuel cells will lead.

Most sustainable energy sources that are being pursued are for electrical generation. One reason is that electrical energy is the least expensive to distribute.

Many sustainable sources are highly variable over time.

Pricing sustainable energy so that consumers use it at the time it is available will utilize the batteries of millions of vehicles to make it useful 24/7/365.

 

[flacaltenn]

Looks to me like we're skipping a couple of steps. Like more diesel passenger cars and natural gas powered vehicles.

Fuel cells run quite nicely off of natural gas. Cleaner than a converted ICE vehicle.. Dont know if you can build a "dual-fuel" fuel cell --- but wouldn't that be neat?


This IS the fuel for transportation. And it solves many many problems with electric cars.
All the major auto makers have said the same.

Who WOULDN'T invest in a local scale hydrogen plant where the energy comes from wind and solar OFF GRID? The distribution and infrastructure won't require any govt prodding at all. The problem will be to cap the RATE at which the suppliers expand.

 

[PMZ]

Looks to me like we're skipping a couple of steps. Like more diesel passenger cars and natural gas powered vehicles.

Fuel cells run quite nicely off of natural gas. Cleaner than a converted ICE vehicle.. Dont know if you can build a "dual-fuel" fuel cell --- but wouldn't that be neat?


This IS the fuel for transportation. And it solves many many problems with electric cars.
All the major auto makers have said the same.

Who WOULDN'T invest in a local scale hydrogen plant where the energy comes from wind and solar OFF GRID? The distribution and infrastructure won't require any govt prodding at all. The problem will be to cap the RATE at which the suppliers expand.

As battery and fuel cell development progress we will become better informed about the potential of each, in passenger miles per dollar including the cost consequences of AGW.

 

[Nosmo King]

It's a statement, Mr. A.

The only viable "solution"? Solution to what?

Any fossil fueled car, be it diesel or CNG is operating on a fuel that has a limited availability. Hydrogen is the most plentiful element on the planet. It also offers the bonus of being non-polluting.

Surely if the automobile was invented today, no one would put an internal combustion gasoline powered engine in it.

 

[flacaltenn]

European Union Hydrogen Highway

You can vent a hydrogen tank faster than an airbag deploys.. Not a real problem.

 

[Mr. H.]

It's a statement, Mr. A.

The only viable "solution"? Solution to what?

Any fossil fueled car, be it diesel or CNG is operating on a fuel that has a limited availability. Hydrogen is the most plentiful element on the planet. It also offers the bonus of being non-polluting.

Surely if the automobile was invented today, no one would put an internal combustion gasoline powered engine in it.

Over 120,000 gas stations in the U.S., dispensing 360 million gallons per day. You call that "limited availability".

Hydrogen-fueled cars not the best way to cut pollution, greenhouse gases and oil dependency, says expert.

 

[Mr. H.]

And DON'T CALL ME SURLEY!

 

[flacaltenn]

It's a statement, Mr. A.

The only viable "solution"? Solution to what?

Any fossil fueled car, be it diesel or CNG is operating on a fuel that has a limited availability. Hydrogen is the most plentiful element on the planet. It also offers the bonus of being non-polluting.

Surely if the automobile was invented today, no one would put an internal combustion gasoline powered engine in it.

Over 120,000 gas stations in the U.S., dispensing 360 million gallons per day. You call that "limited availability".

Hydrogen-fueled cars not the best way to cut pollution, greenhouse gases and oil dependency, says expert.

Sorry Mr. H.. That's from 10 years ago and there is not a single SOLID reason given there as to why Hydrogen produced with OFF GRID renewable is a bad transport fuel..

Hyundai to introduce world's first production fuel-cell electric vehicle - San Jose Mercury News

September 25, 2012 8:29 PM GMTUpdated: 09/25/2012 01:29:31 PM PDT


Hyundai, which has lagged its rivals in battery-powered electric cars, aims to leapfrog that technology and roll out what it calls the world's first production fuel-cell electric vehicles at this week's Paris auto show.

The South Korean automaker is betting that fuel-cell electric vehicles will be a more realistic future auto technology than pure battery electric cars such as Nissan Motor's Leaf.

Those models have struggled to win over drivers as the batteries are expensive, take hours to recharge and can only drive short distances. Toyota this week scaled back plans for its all-electric eQ minicar, saying it misread the market.

"We aim to reduce prices of fuel-cell vehicles to match battery cars by 2020-25," Lim Tae-won, the director in charge of fuel-cell research at Hyundai and its affiliate Kia Motors , told Reuters ahead of the Paris auto show.

He said fuel-cell cars would overcome the "range anxiety" -- or fear of running out of power far from a charging point -- of battery-electric cars if the refuelling issue was resolved.

A 2008 McKinsey study of 11 global carmakers predicted as many as 1 million fuel-cell electric cars on Europe's roads by the end of the decade, but industry experts caution demand will depend on customer acceptance of the technology, government aid and, crucially, the availability of hydrogen filling stations.

German industrial gases producer Linde is investing tens of millions of euros with Daimler to build 20 hydrogen filling stations by 2015. For now, Germany has only seven.

The aim is to bring down the cost to that of a natural gas filling station, around 300,000 euros, or $387,500, from around 1 million euros today, said Ulrich Buenger, a coordinator at the European Hydrogen Road Tour 2012, which is funded by industry and the European Commission.

Hyundai's production-ready fuel-cell electric vehicle can run as far as 588 kms (365 miles) on a full charge, similar to traditional gasoline vehicles, Lim said, while Nissan's Leaf can drive only up to 73 miles per charge.

Toyota slashed its plans for the eQ to sales of just 100 in Japan and the United States from previous forecasts of several thousand, saying battery technology could not live up to consumer demands. ]"The current capabilities of electric vehicles do not meet society's needs, whether it's the distance cars can run, or the costs, or how long it takes to charge," said Takeshi Uchiyamada, Toyota's vice chairman, adding that fuel-cell vehicles looked to have more potential."


The biggest problem is how automakers bring down costs and how much infrastructure will be in place," he said.

Toyota plans to launch sedan-type fuel-cell electric vehicles from around 2015, and predicts sales in the tens of thousands by the 2020s. Nissan is working on a fuel-cell vehicle with Daimler for 2016 and will also unveil a concept fuel-cell sport utility vehicle, the TeRRA, in Paris.

In a KPMG global survey of 200 auto executives, one in five expected fuel-cell electric cars to attract more consumer demand than pure battery electric cars in 2025. Sixteen percent went with battery cars. Hybrids, including plug-ins, provide the best mid-term solution, the survey, published in January, showed.

 

[PMZ]

Any fossil fueled car, be it diesel or CNG is operating on a fuel that has a limited availability. Hydrogen is the most plentiful element on the planet. It also offers the bonus of being non-polluting.

Surely if the automobile was invented today, no one would put an internal combustion gasoline powered engine in it.

Over 120,000 gas stations in the U.S., dispensing 360 million gallons per day. You call that "limited availability".

Hydrogen-fueled cars not the best way to cut pollution, greenhouse gases and oil dependency, says expert.

Sorry Mr. H.. That's from 10 years ago and there is not a single SOLID reason given there as to why Hydrogen produced with OFF GRID renewable is a bad transport fuel..

Hyundai to introduce world's first production fuel-cell electric vehicle - San Jose Mercury News

September 25, 2012 8:29 PM GMTUpdated: 09/25/2012 01:29:31 PM PDT


Hyundai, which has lagged its rivals in battery-powered electric cars, aims to leapfrog that technology and roll out what it calls the world's first production fuel-cell electric vehicles at this week's Paris auto show.

The South Korean automaker is betting that fuel-cell electric vehicles will be a more realistic future auto technology than pure battery electric cars such as Nissan Motor's Leaf.

Those models have struggled to win over drivers as the batteries are expensive, take hours to recharge and can only drive short distances. Toyota this week scaled back plans for its all-electric eQ minicar, saying it misread the market.

"We aim to reduce prices of fuel-cell vehicles to match battery cars by 2020-25," Lim Tae-won, the director in charge of fuel-cell research at Hyundai and its affiliate Kia Motors , told Reuters ahead of the Paris auto show.

He said fuel-cell cars would overcome the "range anxiety" -- or fear of running out of power far from a charging point -- of battery-electric cars if the refuelling issue was resolved.

A 2008 McKinsey study of 11 global carmakers predicted as many as 1 million fuel-cell electric cars on Europe's roads by the end of the decade, but industry experts caution demand will depend on customer acceptance of the technology, government aid and, crucially, the availability of hydrogen filling stations.

German industrial gases producer Linde is investing tens of millions of euros with Daimler to build 20 hydrogen filling stations by 2015. For now, Germany has only seven.

The aim is to bring down the cost to that of a natural gas filling station, around 300,000 euros, or $387,500, from around 1 million euros today, said Ulrich Buenger, a coordinator at the European Hydrogen Road Tour 2012, which is funded by industry and the European Commission.

Hyundai's production-ready fuel-cell electric vehicle can run as far as 588 kms (365 miles) on a full charge, similar to traditional gasoline vehicles, Lim said, while Nissan's Leaf can drive only up to 73 miles per charge.

Toyota slashed its plans for the eQ to sales of just 100 in Japan and the United States from previous forecasts of several thousand, saying battery technology could not live up to consumer demands. [B]"The current capabilities of electric vehicles do not meet society's needs, whether it's the distance cars can run, or the costs, or how long it takes to charge," said Takeshi Uchiyamada, Toyota's vice chairman, adding that fuel-cell vehicles looked to have more potential.[/B]"


The biggest problem is how automakers bring down costs and how much infrastructure will be in place," he said.

Toyota plans to launch sedan-type fuel-cell electric vehicles from around 2015, and predicts sales in the tens of thousands by the 2020s. Nissan is working on a fuel-cell vehicle with Daimler for 2016 and will also unveil a concept fuel-cell sport utility vehicle, the TeRRA, in Paris.

In a KPMG global survey of 200 auto executives, one in five expected fuel-cell electric cars to attract more consumer demand than pure battery electric cars in 2025. Sixteen percent went with battery cars. Hybrids, including plug-ins, provide the best mid-term solution, the survey, published in January, showed.

What is gained by turning electricity into hydrogen, given the inherent distribution and safety issues, rather than using the electrify directly?

 

[mamooth]

What is gained by turning electricity into hydrogen, given the inherent distribution and safety issues, rather than using the electrify directly?

None for grid energy, which is why flac specified off-grid. If you've got power available that would otherwise go to waste, then making hydrogen can be a winning solution. Or non-peak grid could qualify, but non-peak grid could just as easily be used to charge electric cars.

However, not everyone with a few solar cells can make hydrogen successfully. It's not the generation that's the issue, it's the compression. High pressure compressors are not cheap, so you'd need to be working on a pretty big scale to make it worthwhile.

 

[flacaltenn]

What is gained by turning electricity into hydrogen, given the inherent distribution and safety issues, rather than using the electrify directly?

None for grid energy, which is why flac specified off-grid. If you've got power available that would otherwise go to waste, then making hydrogen can be a winning solution. Or non-peak grid could qualify, but non-peak grid could just as easily be used to charge electric cars.

However, not everyone with a few solar cells can make hydrogen successfully. It's not the generation that's the issue, it's the compression. High pressure compressors are not cheap, so you'd need to be working on a pretty big scale to make it worthwhile.

Actually went thru this with Ye OleRocks awhile back. The production can be easily scaled. Even the compression part. There are a couple kits you can buy for under $500 for small scale use. A huge boon for 3rd world. The $500 kit is enough to keep your car fueled.

Estimates for a hydrogen "gas station" are now below the $150K range.

The concept of using renewables to make FUELS off-grid is a much better application for wind and solar because the FUEL IS the storage mechanism for lapses in power generation. Under those rules, it doesn't matter if the wind don't blow for an hour if your AVERAGE production of fuel is acceptable. The compression, storage and distribution part would have to be from ON GRID sources.

I'd sink money into a hydrogen fuel network that has a source of free raw materials and power.

OTH -- Envelope estimates say that a switch of just personal vehicles to the Grid would require a 33% increase in generation and a complete redesign of the grid.. Reaching to EVERY PODUNK corner of the country. That's something that not gonna happen without HUGE delays and MUCH tax money.. AND --- the powers that be will assure that a "smart grid" is a terrible deal for consumers in terms of their bills and lifestyles. Give them that latitude, and your refrigerator temp and thermostat will be remotely controlled and you will be up late at night doing laundry..