CDZ A Question For Atheists

[Derideo_Te]

I have wondered from time to time just what you base the rules of life on?
Morality started based on scripture. But an atheist does not follow scripture.
If you destroy scripture then you destroy morality.

You of course may argue life is based on laws. Fair enough but what were those laws based on? Now if someone kicked in your door and stole your stuff and raped your wife and killed your kids you would say that is wrong based on the law BUT as already stated those laws were based on scripture.

How does an atheist base any rules on anything WITHOUT that base in scripture?

It is a myth that morality is based on scripture. It is also a myth that our laws are based on scripture. There were laws (many of which are still relevant today) that existed long before Mosaic law, and certainly long before the Bible ever existed. The Code of Hammurabi is one example. Morality didn't suddenly appear when anonymous Bedouins decided to write down their traditions. People prefer to be treated with decency and respect. When people started getting together in larger and larger towns, it became necessary to have some kind of law and order so that people can get along and conduct commerce. So morality is whatever society decides works for the safety and betterment of its people. You don't need a bible for that.

But an atheist has NO law book, none. Where did the atheist standards come from? If an atheist says law of the land then it's based on scripture. Pick your book. ANY atheist with morals or values or honor got them somewhere. But NOT from an atheist.
Because they are based on no standard.

Of course Atheists have a "law book". It is called the Law of the Land here in America.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Laws really aren't "based on scripture". It's more the other way around. The laws of the community/village/tribe were long established before we invented supernatural beings to ascribe them to.

I would suggest that what you say isn't supportable.

Man has long recognized "supernatural beings", whether they be the god of water, or the God of salvation.

When primitive humans come together into a community, that requires cooperation. And that means ground rules are going to be set down first thing -- where you get to sit, what my job is, who gets to use that hut, what everybody's status is in the pecking order. That has to come first simply to survive and operate as a community. Any heavy ponderations on the nature of the universe is going to come after that.

But scripture and law are the same thing. Cooperation is only the willingness of others to live under the same scripture/law.

"Scripture" and "law" are NOT the same thing, and both are only tangentially related to morals.

Is the Tora not scripture/law for the Jews?
Is the quron not scripture/law for the islamic?
Is the Bible not scripture/law for the Christian?
Are a countries laws not scripture for it's citizens?

Look up the definition of scripture.

The Law of the Land is not based upon any scripture. In fact it stipulates in the 1st Amendment that none can be endorsed.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Ethics are the level at which we live in the populace based on law/scripture of that populace. Which means scripture HAD to come first BEFORE any ethics/morals were made standard by community scripture/law.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

 

[sealybobo]

Laws really aren't "based on scripture". It's more the other way around. The laws of the community/village/tribe were long established before we invented supernatural beings to ascribe them to.

I would suggest that what you say isn't supportable.

Man has long recognized "supernatural beings", whether they be the god of water, or the God of salvation.

When primitive humans come together into a community, that requires cooperation. And that means ground rules are going to be set down first thing -- where you get to sit, what my job is, who gets to use that hut, what everybody's status is in the pecking order. That has to come first simply to survive and operate as a community. Any heavy ponderations on the nature of the universe is going to come after that.

But scripture and law are the same thing. Cooperation is only the willingness of others to live under the same scripture/law.

"Scripture" and "law" are NOT the same thing, and both are only tangentially related to morals.

Is the Tora not scripture/law for the Jews?
Is the quron not scripture/law for the islamic?
Is the Bible not scripture/law for the Christian?
Are a countries laws not scripture for it's citizens?

What laws do christian Jewish and Muslim americans have to obey in america?

 

[sealybobo]

I see religion going away as I dont see rational thought being stifled like it had in the past when scientific theories went against the churches stories. Its a lot harder to control people when they follow the scientific process. When people stop believing just because someone says so.

If christianity were true there would be no Muslims Jews or Mormons. If Islam were real why are there christians Mormons and Jews? See where this is going? Perhaps none of them are real?

 

[sealybobo]

We see how deep the psychosis goes. We have explained ad nauseum and yet they continue to believe and they dont believe or understand the motivations why they choose to believe the irrational. They've been brainwashed with heaven and hell and they even admit they think people would do bad things without god. Perhaps if parents taught empathy and science wed do much better.

 

[orogenicman]

 

[Liminal]

Scientists Use Computer to Mathematically Prove G del God Theorem - SPIEGEL ONLINE
Proof god exists.

Did you read that link? It actually does not prove God exists.

from your link:

"As headlines go, it's certainly an eye-catching one. "Scientists Prove Existence of God," German daily Die Welt wrote last week.
But unsurprisingly, there is a rather significant caveat to that claim. In fact, what the researchers in question say they have actually proven is a theorem put forward by renowned Austrian mathematician Kurt Gödel -- and the real news isn't about a Supreme Being, but rather what can now be achieved in scientific fields using superior technology."

"The details of the mathematics involved in Gödel's ontological proof are complicated, but in essence the Austrian was arguing that, by definition, God is that for which no greater can be conceived."

But, it does raise an interesting question ....

If you believe in mathematical infinity, but can't express it, why is it impossible to believe that there are other things, to include the definition of a higher being, that exist beyond the human comprehension?

I do not definitively say that there is nothing beyond human comprehension. But I do not believe there is any magic-man in the sky watching our every move and judging us on them.

In other words there is no god as theists claim. No god visited Abraham, Noah, Moses, Joseph Smith, Mohammad or sent Jesus. These are all snake oil salesmen cults that turned into churches.

I think a primitive people created answers to questions.

Much like now.

 

[Carla_Danger]

I have wondered from time to time just what you base the rules of life on?
Morality started based on scripture. But an atheist does not follow scripture.
If you destroy scripture then you destroy morality.

You of course may argue life is based on laws. Fair enough but what were those laws based on? Now if someone kicked in your door and stole your stuff and raped your wife and killed your kids you would say that is wrong based on the law BUT as already stated those laws were based on scripture.

How does an atheist base any rules on anything WITHOUT that base in scripture?

 

[oldfart]

I have wondered from time to time just what you base the rules of life on?
Morality started based on scripture. But an atheist does not follow scripture.
If you destroy scripture then you destroy morality.

You of course may argue life is based on laws. Fair enough but what were those laws based on? Now if someone kicked in your door and stole your stuff and raped your wife and killed your kids you would say that is wrong based on the law BUT as already stated those laws were based on scripture.

How does an atheist base any rules on anything WITHOUT that base in scripture?

Since about two-thirds of the world's population live in societies which do not and never have based their ethical and legal systems on "scripture", your premise is obviously wrong. The real question is when will you emerge from your self-imposed ignorance and stop this whiny special pleading?

 

[sealybobo]

I have wondered from time to time just what you base the rules of life on?
Morality started based on scripture. But an atheist does not follow scripture.
If you destroy scripture then you destroy morality.

You of course may argue life is based on laws. Fair enough but what were those laws based on? Now if someone kicked in your door and stole your stuff and raped your wife and killed your kids you would say that is wrong based on the law BUT as already stated those laws were based on scripture.

How does an atheist base any rules on anything WITHOUT that base in scripture?

Since about two-thirds of the world's population live in societies which do not and never have based their ethical and legal systems on "scripture", your premise is obviously wrong. The real question is when will you emerge from your self-imposed ignorance and stop this whiny special pleading?

I hope society never falls back on this.

 

[Brian Nott]

Why do morals have to be based on "scripture"?

That's the question - if your morals aren't based on 'scripture', just exactly what ARE they based on?

For me they are based first of all on my family traditions and habits which in return could be based upon the far ancestors' beliefs in scripture of course but I can only guess about it and then on my own experience and common sense.

 

[Spare_change]

Why do morals have to be based on "scripture"?

That's the question - if your morals aren't based on 'scripture', just exactly what ARE they based on?

For me they are based first of all on my family traditions and habits which in return could be based upon the far ancestors' beliefs in scripture of course but I can only guess about it and then on my own experience and common sense.

Why do morals have to be based on "scripture"?

That's the question - if your morals aren't based on 'scripture', just exactly what ARE they based on?

For me they are based first of all on my family traditions and habits which in return could be based upon the far ancestors' beliefs in scripture of course but I can only guess about it and then on my own experience and common sense.

Thank you for an honest answer --- I was beginning to despair.

 

[Spare_change]

I have wondered from time to time just what you base the rules of life on?
Morality started based on scripture. But an atheist does not follow scripture.
If you destroy scripture then you destroy morality.

You of course may argue life is based on laws. Fair enough but what were those laws based on? Now if someone kicked in your door and stole your stuff and raped your wife and killed your kids you would say that is wrong based on the law BUT as already stated those laws were based on scripture.

How does an atheist base any rules on anything WITHOUT that base in scripture?

Since about two-thirds of the world's population live in societies which do not and never have based their ethical and legal systems on "scripture", your premise is obviously wrong. The real question is when will you emerge from your self-imposed ignorance and stop this whiny special pleading?

I would think you are being too literal .... clearly, throughout the thread, those that referenced 'scripture' were talking about a codified set of rules/laws ... whereas those who object to it, are speaking specifically of the Christian 'scriptures'.

I suggest that Muslims have 'scriptures', Jews have 'scriptures', Buddhists have 'scriptures' ... a set of rules by which they all try to live. Only atheists have the arrogance to believe that they are inherently smarter the rest of the world, and therefore, can make up the rules as they go along.

Therefore, I think your "two thirds of the world" claim is inherently false ...

 

[sealybobo]

Why do morals have to be based on "scripture"?

That's the question - if your morals aren't based on 'scripture', just exactly what ARE they based on?

For me they are based first of all on my family traditions and habits which in return could be based upon the far ancestors' beliefs in scripture of course but I can only guess about it and then on my own experience and common sense.

I remember my aunt and grandmother told me the conservative version of christianity. I was maybe 12? I was very young but still I knew their stories didn't make sense. So why did I still continue to call myself a christian for 20 years? Cherry picking. Cognitive dissonance. Wanting to believe. Afraid of hell? I didn't believe religions but had a personal relationship with god. Then I realized that was wishful thinking and after I got over the guilt of denying god exists it was liberating to know the truth when it hasnt even dawned on most people. If you study the history of religion its all a joke. So then why is god real? Throw out everything you think you know about god and start from scratch. Does it make any sense? Based on what?

 

[sealybobo]

Science says question the stories of the ancients. Question everything. Doesnt make sense, throw it out.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Science says question the stories of the ancients. Question everything. Doesnt make sense, throw it out.

If religion made sense it wouldn't be religion.

 

[sealybobo]

Science says question the stories of the ancients. Question everything. Doesnt make sense, throw it out.

If religion made sense it wouldn't be religion.

Maybe if there was a church that believed in a creator/god but didn't say the god visited them but instead they believe because they feel blessed for being born and to give thanks to it they want to do good things in its name that would make sense.

The other day a theist explained to me the Jews and Muslims were started because god promised some guy his first son would be the leader but then he banged 2 women and each had sons. The slave had the Muslim and his wife's baby was the king of the jews.

Is it any wonder religion is bad? And is it any wonder christianity became popular when those were the only two other options? Every religion is founded in a lie. A lie that god visited. And they wonder why we call bullshit on the entire concept.

 

[Wuwei]

This guy makes a lot of sense.
Reza Aslan:

“Part of the problem is that there is this misconception that people derive their values from their scriptures. The truth is it is more often the case that people insert their values into their scriptures.... In this country, not 200 years ago, both slave owners and abolitionists not only used the same Bible to justify their viewpoints, they used the same verses to do so. That’s the thing about scripture, its power comes from its malleability. You can read it in any way you want to.”

“If you are a violent misogynist, you will find plenty in the Koran or in the Bible to justify your viewpoint. If you’re a peaceful feminist, you will find just as much in those scriptures to justify your viewpoint.”

“... you are bringing yourself, your views, your politics, your social ideas into the text. How you read scripture has everything to do with who you are. God did not make you a bigot, you’re just a bigot.”​

 

[dblack]

This guy makes a lot of sense.
Reza Aslan:

“Part of the problem is that there is this misconception that people derive their values from their scriptures. The truth is it is more often the case that people insert their values into their scriptures.... In this country, not 200 years ago, both slave owners and abolitionists not only used the same Bible to justify their viewpoints, they used the same verses to do so. That’s the thing about scripture, its power comes from its malleability. You can read it in any way you want to.”

“If you are a violent misogynist, you will find plenty in the Koran or in the Bible to justify your viewpoint. If you’re a peaceful feminist, you will find just as much in those scriptures to justify your viewpoint.”

“... you are bringing yourself, your views, your politics, your social ideas into the text. How you read scripture has everything to do with who you are. God did not make you a bigot, you’re just a bigot.”​

Exactly. I have good friends who are Christians and have no doubt that their moral convictions would remain intact if they lost their faith.