A Positive Look at Islam

[THE LIGHT]

You never asked a question, dumbfuck. Why don't you go read some more internet articles about the "evils of Islam" and continue to feign expertise on the subject?

It was a rhetorical question in a sense

Actually, it wasn't a question at all because there was no question.

because I don't expect you to answer with anything other than bashing and dodging as you have so eloquently exhibited in your last two posts.

Anybody who enters a discussion under the assumption that I'm lying to them and then proceeds to complain when I don't take their posts seriously will be rightfully labeled a dumbfuck. Don't like it? Then quit being a dumbfuck.

Oh, and Mr. Fitnah, do you need me to dispatch the waaahmbulance? Was neg repping me cathartic enough that you won't trouble us with your whining anymore?

Seamless execution...

Muslims carry out their kalam just as they do their Jihad war. One is done with words, the other with a sword.

If you don't agree with them in kalam they call you a dumbfuck, if you don't agree with dominant Islam they behead you.

Well done.

 

[Hister]

kalam is just pissed because he just took a dump and not being allowed toilet paper in islam is slowly frying his marbles.
Hey kalam, what do you guys use for deodorant? Very Old Spice? Anything at all?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Al-Ghazali, a Sufi orthodox Muslim, and follower of the Shafi’i school of Islamic jurisprudence, wrote this about jihad war and the treatment of the vanquished non-Muslim dhimmi peoples, in the Wadjiz: [4]

[O]ne must go on jihad (i.e., warlike razzias or raids) at least once a year…one may use a catapult against them [non-Muslims] when they are in a fortress, even if among them are women and children. One may set fire to them and/or drown them…If a person of the Ahl al-Kitab [People of The Book – primarily Jews and Christians] is enslaved, his marriage is [automatically] revoked…One may cut down their trees…One must destroy their useless books. Jihadists may take as booty whatever they decide…they may steal as much food as they need…

[T]he dhimmi is obliged not to mention Allah or His Apostle…Jews, Christians, and Majians must pay the jizya [poll tax on non-Muslims]…on offering up the jizya, the dhimmi must hang his head while the official takes hold of his beard and hits [thedhimmi] on the protruberant bone beneath his ear [i.e., the mandible]… They are not permitted to ostentatiously display their wine or church bells…their houses may not be higher than the Muslim’s, no matter how low that is. The dhimmi may not ride an elegant horse or mule; he may ride a donkey only if the saddle [-work] is of wood. He may not walk on the good part of the road. They [the dhimmis] have to wear [an identifying] patch [on their clothing], even women, and even in the [public] baths…[dhimmis] must hold their tongue….

Legal war (jihad) is an obligatory social duty (fard-kifaya); when one group of Moslems guarantees that it is being carried out in a satisfactory manner, the others are exempted.
The jihad becomes a strictly binding personal duty (fard-‘ain) for all Moslems who are enlisted or whose country has been [invaded] by the enemy. I

t is obligatory only for free men who have reached puberty, are endowed with reason and capable of fighting. Jihad is the best of the works of supererogation.

Abu Huraira relates that “The Prophet, when asked what was the best of all works, replied: Belief in God [and in His Prophet].– And then? someone asked him. – War for God’s cause, then a pious pilgrimage.” Abu Sa’id reports also that the Prophet, when asked who was the best of all men, replied, “He who fights for God’s cause, personally and with his goods.”… It is permitted to surprise the infidels under cover of night, to bombard them with mangonels [an engine that hurls missiles] and to attack them without declaring battle (du‘a’). The Prophet attacked the Banu Mustaliq unexpectedly, while their animals were still at the watering-place; he killed the men who had fought against him and carried off the children into captivity.

It is forbidden to kill children, madmen, women, priests, impotent old men, the infirm, the blind, the weak-minded, unless they have taken part in the combat.
The chief of State decides on the fate of the men who are taken as prisoners; he can have them put to death, reduce them to slavery, free them in return for a ransom or grant them their freedom as a gift. He must choose the solution most in keeping with the common good of the Moslems.


The jizya can be demanded only from the Peoples of the Book (Ahl-al-Kitab) and from Zoroastrians (Magus), who pledge to pay it and submit to the laws of the community. The Peoples of the Book are understood to mean the Jews and those who follow the religion of the Torah, as well as the Christians and those who follow the religion of the Gospel. When People of the Book or Zoroastrians ask to pay the jizya and to submit to the laws of the community, one must grant their request, and it is forbidden to fight them.

The jizya is collected at the beginning of each year. It is set at 48 dirhems for a rich man, at 24 dirhems for a man of moderate means, and at 12 dirhems for a man of lowly estate. It cannot be demanded from children who have not reached the age of puberty, from women, helpless old men, the sick, the blind, or slaves, nor from poor people who are unable to pay it. An infidel subject to the jizya who converts to Islam is free of this obligation. When an infidel dies, his heirs are responsible for the jizya

As recorder in Kitab al-Wagiz fi fiqh madhab al-imam al-Safi'i.

Hi, you have received -22 reputation points from Coloradomtnman.
Reputation was given for this post.

Comment:
Does hate-mongering make you feel good about yourself?

You neg me for offering a fuller view of the available facts on the topic and call me a hatemonger ?
I think you have it backwards Sir.

I shall pos you just because he negged you.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

There is at least one thread or post I read here each day that affirms my belief that USMB is full of idiots. Today, this thread served that function.

Thanks for trying, Skydancer.

Why don't you add something positive and uplifting about Islam?




Is it because you know the truth?

 

[Kalam]

There is at least one thread or post I read here each day that affirms my belief that USMB is full of idiots. Today, this thread served that function.

Thanks for trying, Skydancer.

Why don't you add something positive and uplifting about Islam?




Is it because you know the truth?

I don't want to spoil the fun that you apes seem to be having. Carry on.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

There is at least one thread or post I read here each day that affirms my belief that USMB is full of idiots. Today, this thread served that function.

Thanks for trying, Skydancer.

Why don't you add something positive and uplifting about Islam?




Is it because you know the truth?

I don't want to spoil the fun that you apes seem to be having. Carry on.

Thank you for making my point.

 

[Kalam]

Why don't you add something positive and uplifting about Islam?




Is it because you know the truth?

I don't want to spoil the fun that you apes seem to be having. Carry on.

Thank you for making my point.

No problem. You never seem able to make a point on your own.

 

[Ringel05]

There is at least one thread or post I read here each day that affirms my belief that USMB is full of idiots. Today, this thread served that function.

Some things bear repeating. It always makes me laugh when I see a kafir pretend he's an "Islamic scholar."

The problem is the perfect, ideal view of Islam you have and project is like the perfect, ideal view of every theism or human system for that matter, a flight of fancy, a pipe dream that doesn't, nor ever will exist in the real world. Behind the walls of churches, mosques, temples, monasteries, buildings, court yards, homes, etc it can occasionally be made to work but out in the real world where politics, economics and power come into play, individuals, groups and governments make it what it is, not desired ideal theory.

 

[Kalam]

There is at least one thread or post I read here each day that affirms my belief that USMB is full of idiots. Today, this thread served that function.

Some things bear repeating. It always makes me laugh when I see a kafir pretend he's an "Islamic scholar."

The problem is the perfect, ideal view of Islam you have and project is like the perfect, ideal view of every theism or human system for that matter, a flight of fancy, a pipe dream that doesn't, nor ever will exist in the real world. Behind the walls of churches, mosques, temples, monasteries, buildings, court yards, homes, etc it can occasionally be made to work but out in the real world where politics, economics and power come into play, individuals, groups and governments make it what it is, not desired ideal theory.

But it did.

Rashidun Caliphate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Some things bear repeating. It always makes me laugh when I see a kafir pretend he's an "Islamic scholar."

The problem is the perfect, ideal view of Islam you have and project is like the perfect, ideal view of every theism or human system for that matter, a flight of fancy, a pipe dream that doesn't, nor ever will exist in the real world. Behind the walls of churches, mosques, temples, monasteries, buildings, court yards, homes, etc it can occasionally be made to work but out in the real world where politics, economics and power come into play, individuals, groups and governments make it what it is, not desired ideal theory.

But it did.

Rashidun Caliphate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pipe dream , delusion, call it what you will .

 

[Ringel05]

Some things bear repeating. It always makes me laugh when I see a kafir pretend he's an "Islamic scholar."

The problem is the perfect, ideal view of Islam you have and project is like the perfect, ideal view of every theism or human system for that matter, a flight of fancy, a pipe dream that doesn't, nor ever will exist in the real world. Behind the walls of churches, mosques, temples, monasteries, buildings, court yards, homes, etc it can occasionally be made to work but out in the real world where politics, economics and power come into play, individuals, groups and governments make it what it is, not desired ideal theory.

But it did.

Rashidun Caliphate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It sorta worked for a very short period of time (relatively speaking) and when their economies started falling so did their tolerance of other religions within their boarders. Other religions that were considered second class citizens in the first place. It was also created by war and conquest, (not a new concept) had it's internal power plays, revolutions etc. so no, it didn't.

 

[Kalam]

The problem is the perfect, ideal view of Islam you have and project is like the perfect, ideal view of every theism or human system for that matter, a flight of fancy, a pipe dream that doesn't, nor ever will exist in the real world. Behind the walls of churches, mosques, temples, monasteries, buildings, court yards, homes, etc it can occasionally be made to work but out in the real world where politics, economics and power come into play, individuals, groups and governments make it what it is, not desired ideal theory.

But it did.

Rashidun Caliphate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It sorta worked for a very short period of time (relatively speaking) and when their economies started falling so did their tolerance of other religions within their boarders. Other religions that were considered second class citizens in the first place. It was also created by war and conquest, (not a new concept) had it's internal power plays, revolutions etc. so no, it didn't.

You're ignoring the fact that the deviance began far before the Muslim world reached its economic height, so no, I don't think that the failure can be attributed to economic issues. Tolerance also didn't necessarily decrease under the deviant dynasties; recall that the so-called "Golden Age" of Spanish Jewry occurred under the Umayyads. You're implying that the failure of a government to last into perpetuity precludes any possibility of future success. I'm sure that you don't need me to tell you why this is illogical.

 

[logical4u]

Didn't Muhammad have sex with girls we consider to be children?

All the time! He raped women and made them perform as sex slaves, too. If he did not like them, he cut their heads off.

If that's true then how can anything that comes from him be of God?

Good question, Sky, any answers on that?

 

[Kalam]

All the time! He raped women and made them perform as sex slaves, too. If he did not like them, he cut their heads off.

If that's true then how can anything that comes from him be of God?

Good question, Sky, any answers on that?

You actually believe anything that Newbarf says?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Some things bear repeating. It always makes me laugh when I see a kafir pretend he's an "Islamic scholar."

The problem is the perfect, ideal view of Islam you have and project is like the perfect, ideal view of every theism or human system for that matter, a flight of fancy, a pipe dream that doesn't, nor ever will exist in the real world. Behind the walls of churches, mosques, temples, monasteries, buildings, court yards, homes, etc it can occasionally be made to work but out in the real world where politics, economics and power come into play, individuals, groups and governments make it what it is, not desired ideal theory.

But it did.

Rashidun Caliphate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Uthman refused to initiate any military action to avoid civil war between Muslims, and preferred negotiations.[citation needed] His polite attitude towards rebels emboldened them and they broke into Uthman's house and killed him while he was reading the Qur'an.

Yep, perfect example of a perfect system. If this is your perfect example of the peace of Islam you can understand why I, and others, express skepticism.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Some highlights of of Cordoba and Andalusia

Toledo Massacre

1,200 Jews were massacred by a Christian and Moslem mob attack on the Jewish section of Toledo, Spain, on this date in 1355.( Jewish calender)

850-859 - Perfectus, a Christian priest in Muslim-ruled Córdoba, is beheaded after he refuses to retract numerous insults he made about Muhammad. Numerous other priests, monks, and laity would follow as Christians became caught up in a zest for martyrdom.
Forty-eight Christians men and women are decapitated for refusing to convert or blaspheming Muhammad. They will be known as the Martyrs of Córdoba.

818 - The revolt in Córdoba against the Muslims is punished by three days of massacres and pillage, with 300 notables crucified and 20,000 families expelled.
819 - The Franks suppress revolt in Pamplona.
The Myth of the Golden Age of Tolerance in Medieval Muslim Spain - New English Review

Global Politician - The Twin Myths of Eurabia

The Legacy of Jihad [Andrew G. Bostom] - The Islamization of Europe

http://www.mmisi.org/ir/41_02/fernandez-morera.pdf

 

[Kalam]

The problem is the perfect, ideal view of Islam you have and project is like the perfect, ideal view of every theism or human system for that matter, a flight of fancy, a pipe dream that doesn't, nor ever will exist in the real world. Behind the walls of churches, mosques, temples, monasteries, buildings, court yards, homes, etc it can occasionally be made to work but out in the real world where politics, economics and power come into play, individuals, groups and governments make it what it is, not desired ideal theory.

But it did.

Rashidun Caliphate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Uthman refused to initiate any military action to avoid civil war between Muslims, and preferred negotiations.[citation needed] His polite attitude towards rebels emboldened them and they broke into Uthman's house and killed him while he was reading the Qur'an.

Yep, perfect example of a perfect system. If this is your perfect example of the peace of Islam you can understand why I, and others, express skepticism.

Problems only began when some of Uthman's (RA) provincial governors failed to suppress insurrections. The specifics of political administration in Shari'ah aren't set in stone and can be adapted to fit any situation. Again, pointing to administrative shortcomings during Uthamn's period of leadership and arguing that the system will always fail wherever it's implemented makes no sense. If you're so convinced that the Caliphate is doomed to failure, prove it by getting out of our way and giving us a chance to implement it again.

 

[Ringel05]

But it did.

Rashidun Caliphate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It sorta worked for a very short period of time (relatively speaking) and when their economies started falling so did their tolerance of other religions within their boarders. Other religions that were considered second class citizens in the first place. It was also created by war and conquest, (not a new concept) had it's internal power plays, revolutions etc. so no, it didn't.

You're ignoring the fact that the deviance began far before the Muslim world reached its economic height, so no, I don't think that the failure can be attributed to economic issues. Tolerance also didn't necessarily decrease under the deviant dynasties; recall that the so-called "Golden Age" of Spanish Jewry occurred under the Umayyads. You're implying that the failure of a government to last into perpetuity precludes any possibility of future success. I'm sure that you don't need me to tell you why this is illogical.

Interesting. Remember I was initially addressing perfect systems and my reason is simple. Whenever (in the past) we have had a discussion concerning Islam, it's followers and the rest of the world you tend to quote the Koran as to how it should be while ignoring the reality and real image of how it is today. You have provided an example that you see as near perfect as one can get, I am aware of the flaws that were in this same system, flaws which you seem to want to ignore, downplay or dismiss. I agree that it was indeed the most tolerant Islamic system in history but it was by modern standards of tolerance (ideal American standards) far short of the mark. And yes, history shows a great discrepancy between the golden age view and reality. While the golden age prosperity continued some (not all) princedoms were quite tolerant, even allowing non-Muslims to work in offices and professions normally denied them by law but when the dynasty began imploding and suffering economic hardships all this changed, enforcement of the discriminatory laws became zealously pursued.
Still even during the golden age discrimination was legally mandated.
Doesn't strike me as a very perfect system for those of us who are not nor never would follow Islam.

 

[Ringel05]

But it did.

Rashidun Caliphate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Uthman refused to initiate any military action to avoid civil war between Muslims, and preferred negotiations.[citation needed] His polite attitude towards rebels emboldened them and they broke into Uthman's house and killed him while he was reading the Qur'an.

Yep, perfect example of a perfect system. If this is your perfect example of the peace of Islam you can understand why I, and others, express skepticism.

Problems only began when some of Uthman's (RA) provincial governors failed to suppress insurrections. The specifics of political administration in Shari'ah aren't set in stone and can be adapted to fit any situation. Again, pointing to administrative shortcomings during Uthamn's period of leadership and arguing that the system will always fail wherever it's implemented makes no sense. If you're so convinced that the Caliphate is doomed to failure, prove it by getting out of our way and giving us a chance to implement it again.

And what will you do with those people in these areas that have no desire to get out of your way?

 

[logical4u]

Some things bear repeating. It always makes me laugh when I see a kafir pretend he's an "Islamic scholar."

The problem is the perfect, ideal view of Islam you have and project is like the perfect, ideal view of every theism or human system for that matter, a flight of fancy, a pipe dream that doesn't, nor ever will exist in the real world. Behind the walls of churches, mosques, temples, monasteries, buildings, court yards, homes, etc it can occasionally be made to work but out in the real world where politics, economics and power come into play, individuals, groups and governments make it what it is, not desired ideal theory.

But it did.

Rashidun Caliphate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes, it worked off of the conquered's resources. The below is from the site you gave. It looks like the military was working full time killing and collecting others' wealth. It doesn't look like this system of governence can stand on its own, it must take/steal from others to survive.


Abu Bakr desired Umar to be his successor and he persuaded the most powerful of the followers of Muhammad to go along. Umar was gifted both militarily and politically.
Umar continued the war of conquests begun by Abu Bakr. He pressed into the Sassanid Persian Empire itself, but he also headed north into Syria and Byzantine territory and west into Egypt. These were some of the richest regions in the world guarded by powerful states, but a lengthy war between the Byzantines and Sassanids had left both states militarily exhausted. Islamic forces easily prevailed in war against the two states. By 640, Islamic military campaigns had brought all of Mesopotamia, Syria and Palestine under the control of Rashidun Caliphate. Egypt was conquered by 642 and the entire Persian Empire by 643.

Umar, however, was one of the great political geniuses of history. While the empire was expanding at a mind-numbing rate beneath his leadership, he also began to build the foundations for a political structure that would hold it together. Umar did not require that non-Muslim populations convert to Islam nor did he try to centralize government, as the Persians had done. Instead, he allowed subject populations to retain their religion, language, customs, and government relatively untouched. The only intrusion would be a governor (amir) and a financial officer called an amil.

(I believe we would call that a "tax collector")

Umar's most far-reaching innovations were in the area of building a financial structure to the empire. He understood that the most important aspect of the empire was a stable financial structure for the government. To this end, he built an efficient system of taxation and brought the military directly under the financial control of the state. He also founded the Diwan, a unique Islamic institution. The diwan consisted of individuals that were important to the Islamic faith and the Islamic world, such as the companions of Muhammad. Their contribution to the faith was so great that they were given pensions on which to live, (supported by others' resources) which freed them up to pursue religious and ethical studies, and thus provide spiritual leadership to the rest of the Islamic world.

Umar established many Islamic traditions, including the process of collating the Quran. Among his most lasting traditions was the establishment of the Muslim calendar. Like the Arabian calendar, it remained a lunar calendar, but Umar set the beginning of the calendar to the year in which Muhammad emigrated to Medina. This, as far as Umar was concerned, was the turning point in Islamic history.

Umar was mortally wounded in an assassination attempt by the Persian slave Abu Lulu Fieroz, (a disgruntled employee?) during morning prayers in 644. Before he died, Umar appointed a committee of six men to decide on the next caliph—they were charged to choose one of their own number.


Looks like this "perfect system" was busy conquering neighbors and collecting war booty. It appears islam cannot survive without "conquering" (spending other peoples' resources).