A Necessity, NOT A Luxury

[Sonny Clark]

I would never ever say that. We should pay for services rendered. I'm against "FREE" everything. But, health care has gotten way too expensive for all but the very wealthy to pay all out of pocket. I would never ever say that the government should run any public program or service. We are already damaged enough by government intervention and regulations.

Health care became too expensive exactly because of government involvement. And the government solution to keep the price low is more government involvement.

So, if we are, as you say, "damaged enough by government involvement", what the real solution would be?

"What real solution would there be?". Thanks for asking. As I have said, written about, mentioned, and preached for many years now, the solution is to convince, beg if necessary, voters to STOP electing and re-electing professional politicians to serve in government. Remember, professional politicians are all about egos, greed, self-service, power, and climbing the political ladder at all cost. Once elected to office, they exert their will, and not the will of the people. Professional politicians are bought and paid for. We have a Lobbyist controlled U.S. Congress, and an oval office bought and paid for. All of them owe favors. All of them accept money and other favors for their votes on the floors of Congress. Honesty and politics mix like water and oil. The voting public could send a very strong message by writing-in a candidate instead of voting for those that the wealthy, the powerful, and the influential have placed on the ballots. Until that happens, we can all expect the same from government as we're getting now, and have gotten for many decades, through many administrations. As it stands now, the majority of the voting public suffers from "Blind Patriotism", which is a terrible affliction. I can go into more detail if you'd like.

Some people love free stuff. Some people love honesty.

Those who love free stuff will keep voting for those who are promising them free stuff.

Based on what you wrote, you prefer honesty. You want career politicians out of office. You want liars out of office too. Only group that doesn't fit in what you just described above are teapartiers. So, do you support them?

I support anyone that is pro-America. I support anyone that believes in rights, freedom, liberty, justice, and a truly representative government seated in Washington. I support all that want justice to mean justice, freedom to mean freedom, and those that believe that the government should always act in the best interest of this nation and her citizens. I am totally against an anti-America government, such we have now, and have had for many decades now. I am totally against anti-America representatives seated in Congress. I am totally against political labels that divide us. I believe that the only label we should claim is "AMERICAN". I believe that we should be Americans for America. Division has destroyed us. Division gives the Washington Brotherhood power. The enemy of anti-America politicians is a united citizenry. As long as they can keep us divided, they win, we lose. I am very much for a government that protects and serves the citizenry, and only serves the citizenry. I am for a government by the people, and for the people. I am totally against a government by the rich and powerful, for the rich and powerful. By the way, what you're calling "free stuff" is paid for by taxpayers. That includes those that pay sales tax, and any other tax. Even those receiving some form of government assistance, are paying into the system each time they make a purchase. The government collects money from taxpaying citizens, so that money belongs to taxpaying citizens. Had you rather see foreign governments get it? Had you rather it spent on the care and support of illegal immigrants? Had you rather it continue to go to rich farmers and big oil? What about continuing to supply weapons to drug lords and terrorists? What other ways would you like to see the government spend your hard earned tax dollars?

You probably know that when is say "free stuff" means it's free for those who consume it. OK, lets go back to the "necessities".

We're told we owe something to those who don't have it, whatever it is, or we're worthless. If we don't give them that, whatever it is, system is gonna take it anyways. It's a system which is breeding hatred and malice to both our peers and our "representatives". We're told we have moral obligations... and we're lied to. America became one giant credit card in hands of politicians where only about a half of us is getting the bill.

First, the government has created this situation. And secondly, the American people continue to support the government in their efforts to create a poor and dependent society. The government has taken away the opportunities to be a self-supporting people. Thirdly, the same people that are complaining, are the very ones that go to the polls on election day and cast votes to either elect, or to re-elect a professional politician. Go figure. Yes, we have a percentage not paying into the system, but that is basically through no fault of their own. No one wants to be poor, dependent, living on the streets and in shelters, eating out of trash cans, and enduring misery and pain every single day. Believe it or not, everyone would like to be multi-millionaires, living in mansions, driving Bentleys, and eating high on the hog and drinking expensive wine. But, our government has created the dependency via anti-America legislation and policies. We often blame the wrong ones, misunderstand what happened and how it happened, and expect things to change even though we continue to do the same things expecting a different result. Don't blame the poor and less fortunate, blame those that created the situation. Our political machine along with The Washington Brotherhood is the problem, yet voters continue to feed the monster.

 

[MikeK]

[...]

For broken bones, there used to be bonesetters. Now, it costs $4,000 to treat a broken arm. Even still, that's cheaper than insurance. I have no insurance. I could probably break an arm every year and save money by opting out of insurance.

[...]

What you're suggesting makes sense -- provided you never have a major medical expense.

E.g., I resented paying the monthly fee for GHI & Blue Shield coverage back in 1997. But when a stomach ache turned out to be colon cancer it ended up costing $117,000 for surgery, etc.

I got away with a $1,200 co-payment. If I didn't have the insurance I would have ended up either paying that big bill or losing my house.

In 2003 I turned up with prostate cancer. There went another $92,000 treatment (surgery & radiation), but by then I was on Medicare.

Now I'm dealing with some kind of lumbar agony which as yet is undiagnosed. But I've already started racking up specialist bills and I'm scheduled for an MRI next week (God bless Medicare). So what you're really talking about is a big financial risk which I am very glad I didn't take.

Those monthly insurance payments hurt -- but all it takes is one big medical problem to financially ruin you if you don't have the insurance. So until the U.S. adopts universal federal health care the medical industry and the insurance companies are calling the shots.

 

[Jackinthebox]

[...]

For broken bones, there used to be bonesetters. Now, it costs $4,000 to treat a broken arm. Even still, that's cheaper than insurance. I have no insurance. I could probably break an arm every year and save money by opting out of insurance.

[...]

What you're suggesting makes sense -- provided you never have a major medical expense.

E.g., I resented paying the monthly fee for GHI & Blue Shield coverage back in 1997. But when a stomach ache turned out to be colon cancer it ended up costing $117,000 for surgery, etc.

I got away with a $1,200 co-payment. If I didn't have the insurance I would have ended up either paying that big bill or losing my house.

In 2003 I turned up with prostate cancer. There went another $92,000 treatment (surgery & radiation), but by then I was on Medicare.

Now I'm dealing with some kind of lumbar agony which as yet is undiagnosed. But I've already started racking up specialist bills and I'm scheduled for an MRI next week (God bless Medicare). So what you're really talking about is a big financial risk which I am very glad I didn't take.

Those monthly insurance payments hurt -- but all it takes is one big medical problem to financially ruin you if you don't have the insurance. So until the U.S. adopts universal federal health care the medical industry and the insurance companies are calling the shots.

Here's another thought too. Insurance may cost more in a year than what your normal out of pocket expense would be for a single incident, but most people can't simply put away that money. It winds up being spent on other necessities. So when the time comes to pay for that broken arm, you still don't have the money to do it. (A broken arms is a HELL OF A LOT more expensive than $4k too.) This is why workers usually file 0 throughout the year with their employer, so that their paychecks are hit with the max deduction, so that they are sure to get a nice tax return at the end of the year. taking that deduction throughout the year, the money just gets pissed away.

I was just hit with a $12k bill for a 12 hour visit to the ER after I was attacked by a stranger a few weeks ago. The ambulance ride was another $1600 for an ALS transport.

 

[Treeshepherd]

I can afford my care, because it's free. I had stitches when I was 17, and that was my last doctor visit.

I just ate an orange. I do yoga. I drink aloe vera to sooth my stomach after drinking too much over the holidays, and I take at least 1 month off per year from drinking.

Most importantly, I haven't taken anti-biotics for like, I don't even remember, maybe 30 years. The strongest medicine I've taken during that time is aspirin. I've let my own body do the healing, so my immune system is incredibly powerful. When germs enter my body, the germs get sick.

My strategy is a legitimate health strategy, but it takes decades to develop this level of resistance. I could probably sell my gut fauna online.

The alternative is to get put on drugs for a lifetime, because a doctor can always find a problem. "Sorry, patient, you have disease X". Now, you're labelled. Now, the placebo effect works toward the negative and you're locked into a lifetime of psycho-somatic symptoms.

Congrats on your lifetime of good health. Unfortunately, that is not the case with many people. Not everyone that gets sick is engaging in bad habits or dangerous living. Some require health care due to aging, others due to accidents, others due to exposure to some illness, and others get sick from infections and diseases. No one intentionally does something to warrant a doctor or hospital care.

I haven't had a lifetime of perfect health. I just haven't had a condition yet which I was unable to self-diagnose and rehab without the involvement of the Healthcare Industrial Complex.

Besides the fact that I've been living in my own body for 45 years (and a doctor sees a patient for a half hour, and often speaks poor English ), I have the internet. I have 5,000 years of compiled alternative remedies, including herbs.

Also, I got off to a good start with a healthy mother who breast fed me and then put me on a home cooked diet. Had I been born 15 years prior, the medical establishment would have recommended Hershey's baby formula. Had I been born 15 years later, I'd perhaps have grown up on corn syrup and GMOs.

 

[Treeshepherd]

[...]

For broken bones, there used to be bonesetters. Now, it costs $4,000 to treat a broken arm. Even still, that's cheaper than insurance. I have no insurance. I could probably break an arm every year and save money by opting out of insurance.

[...]

What you're suggesting makes sense -- provided you never have a major medical expense.

E.g., I resented paying the monthly fee for GHI & Blue Shield coverage back in 1997. But when a stomach ache turned out to be colon cancer it ended up costing $117,000 for surgery, etc.

I got away with a $1,200 co-payment. If I didn't have the insurance I would have ended up either paying that big bill or losing my house.

In 2003 I turned up with prostate cancer. There went another $92,000 treatment (surgery & radiation), but by then I was on Medicare.

Now I'm dealing with some kind of lumbar agony which as yet is undiagnosed. But I've already started racking up specialist bills and I'm scheduled for an MRI next week (God bless Medicare). So what you're really talking about is a big financial risk which I am very glad I didn't take.

Those monthly insurance payments hurt -- but all it takes is one big medical problem to financially ruin you if you don't have the insurance. So until the U.S. adopts universal federal health care the medical industry and the insurance companies are calling the shots.

Here's another thought too. Insurance may cost more in a year than what your normal out of pocket expense would be for a single incident, but most people can't simply put away that money. It winds up being spent on other necessities. So when the time comes to pay for that broken arm, you still don't have the money to do it. (A broken arms is a HELL OF A LOT more expensive than $4k too.) This is why workers usually file 0 throughout the year with their employer, so that their paychecks are hit with the max deduction, so that they are sure to get a nice tax return at the end of the year. taking that deduction throughout the year, the money just gets pissed away.

I was just hit with a $12k bill for a 12 hour visit to the ER after I was attacked by a stranger a few weeks ago. The ambulance ride was another $1600 for an ALS transport.

Cost of a regular broken arm is $2500 and up. Cost of a Broken Arm - Consumer Information
It's more expensive if you need surgery to repair some kind of nerve damage or something. Or, if the doctor has a balloon payment due on his vacation home and therefore determines that you need extra care.

How much $ have I saved from not buying insurance since I was 24? That would be 21 years x 12 months of payments. Let's say I had a $300 policy. That would be $75,600.00.
And, that's with a high deductible, I'm assuming. I don't really now what kind of deal I could get. I've never looked into it.

 

[Conservative65]

Capitalism at it's best...

What capitalism? The government sets almost ALL the rules of engagement in healthcare. There is almost zero competition in the medical device because of the government, the insurance mandated by the government to providers and the list goes on and on.

But do not let the facts get in the way of a good old socialist yammering of the "workings of capitalism" where there is none.

What those who support Obamacare don't get is that there

What's wrong with this option?:

My heart is failing which means it's time for me to die. Why has it become imperative that I be kept alive at all costs? Is it fair for me to burden my family with giant medical costs just so I can add a few more years of life which would likely be a low quality of life?

If that were the decision, we'd be more rational about it. But it's not. The decision is whether or not to it's fair to burden some faceless, socialized, health-care cost sharing scheme. Faced with that kind of decision, there's every incentive to go for broke.

Again, I have to ask you to check the sanity of such a statement. If we all need help, who's doing the "helping"?

There's a lot of sanity in the statement. It's factual and a truism. The help is coming from taxpayers, charities, trust funds, family members, and from debt forgiveness. Examples: Medicare, Medicaid, trust funds such as St. Jude's Children Hospital, and in some cases, debt forgiveness which turns into tax write-offs. Just common sense and simple logic.

No, there's not. If the average person can't afford basic health care, there's something seriously wrong. Something socializing costs isn't going to solve.

FYI - The average person can NOT afford basic health care. I just had an MRI that cost over $4,000. My prescriptions would cost a lot of money each month without insurance covering 95% of the cost. Can you imagine what the expense it would be for a family of four just to have an annual check-up? Do you realize what lab work cost? Do you know what an average doctor visit cost? The average person is doing well just to pay mortgage ( rent ), food, transportation, utilities, clothing, and insurance on their home and auto. Most people do not have a nest egg to draw from. People aren't making the money they use to make. The cost of living has gone up. Employers are paying less benefits for employees. A lot of college kids have enormous student loan debt. Seniors have lost equity in their homes, and some have lost part of their pensions due to mismanagement of the funds by unions and cities. We are not a wealthy citizenry. We are not a self-supporting people, nor a self-supporting nation. Proper health care is an enormous cost. At some point, almost everyone needs some form of assistance. Again, common sense and simple logic.

that's BS. There is thing called, making payments. You can do that with your health care the same as buying a car. Many people still do it and don't want you SPEAKING for them or sticking your nose in their business

Yes, some people can make payments, and do. And, some people can't make payments, and don't. Just curious here, what do you think a monthly payment would be for an operation and hospital stay that cost $750,000? Have any idea ??

I'll use my insurance as an example. It would cost me $750 out of pocket max. My insurance is called health reimbursement. My deductible is $3000 of which my employer pays $2250 after I pay the first $750. My total out of pocket is $6000/year. After the $3000 deductible is met, my coverage is 80/20 which my employer covers that 20% if it's inpatient. That means once the $6000 is met, I no longer pay a dime. Since $2250 of the deductible and all $3000 of the next $3000 to get to the max out of pocket of $6000 is covered, I pay no more than $750 out of pocket personally.

I recently had knee replacement surgery. The total of all bills for pre surgery PT, surgery, anesthesia, surgeon fee, hospital fees, post surgery PT, etc. was about $85000. I paid $750. Once all the bills came in and my employer wrote me the reimbursement for $5250, I paid the $6000 in bills.

 

[Conservative65]

I can afford my care, because it's free. I had stitches when I was 17, and that was my last doctor visit.

I just ate an orange. I do yoga. I drink aloe vera to sooth my stomach after drinking too much over the holidays, and I take at least 1 month off per year from drinking.

Most importantly, I haven't taken anti-biotics for like, I don't even remember, maybe 30 years. The strongest medicine I've taken during that time is aspirin. I've let my own body do the healing, so my immune system is incredibly powerful. When germs enter my body, the germs get sick.

My strategy is a legitimate health strategy, but it takes decades to develop this level of resistance. I could probably sell my gut fauna online.

The alternative is to get put on drugs for a lifetime, because a doctor can always find a problem. "Sorry, patient, you have disease X". Now, you're labelled. Now, the placebo effect works toward the negative and you're locked into a lifetime of psycho-somatic symptoms.

Congrats on your lifetime of good health. Unfortunately, that is not the case with many people. Not everyone that gets sick is engaging in bad habits or dangerous living. Some require health care due to aging, others due to accidents, others due to exposure to some illness, and others get sick from infections and diseases. No one intentionally does something to warrant a doctor or hospital care.

"No one intentionally does something to warrant a doctor or hospital care."

Incorrect. I am a volunteer Firefighter/EMT. Not too long ago we ran a failed suicide attempt. I can promise you the person went to the hospital and can guarantee he intentionally did to himself what warranted that hospital care.

 

[Sonny Clark]

Capitalism at it's best...

What capitalism? The government sets almost ALL the rules of engagement in healthcare. There is almost zero competition in the medical device because of the government, the insurance mandated by the government to providers and the list goes on and on.

But do not let the facts get in the way of a good old socialist yammering of the "workings of capitalism" where there is none.

What those who support Obamacare don't get is that there

What's wrong with this option?:

My heart is failing which means it's time for me to die. Why has it become imperative that I be kept alive at all costs? Is it fair for me to burden my family with giant medical costs just so I can add a few more years of life which would likely be a low quality of life?

If that were the decision, we'd be more rational about it. But it's not. The decision is whether or not to it's fair to burden some faceless, socialized, health-care cost sharing scheme. Faced with that kind of decision, there's every incentive to go for broke.

There's a lot of sanity in the statement. It's factual and a truism. The help is coming from taxpayers, charities, trust funds, family members, and from debt forgiveness. Examples: Medicare, Medicaid, trust funds such as St. Jude's Children Hospital, and in some cases, debt forgiveness which turns into tax write-offs. Just common sense and simple logic.

No, there's not. If the average person can't afford basic health care, there's something seriously wrong. Something socializing costs isn't going to solve.

FYI - The average person can NOT afford basic health care. I just had an MRI that cost over $4,000. My prescriptions would cost a lot of money each month without insurance covering 95% of the cost. Can you imagine what the expense it would be for a family of four just to have an annual check-up? Do you realize what lab work cost? Do you know what an average doctor visit cost? The average person is doing well just to pay mortgage ( rent ), food, transportation, utilities, clothing, and insurance on their home and auto. Most people do not have a nest egg to draw from. People aren't making the money they use to make. The cost of living has gone up. Employers are paying less benefits for employees. A lot of college kids have enormous student loan debt. Seniors have lost equity in their homes, and some have lost part of their pensions due to mismanagement of the funds by unions and cities. We are not a wealthy citizenry. We are not a self-supporting people, nor a self-supporting nation. Proper health care is an enormous cost. At some point, almost everyone needs some form of assistance. Again, common sense and simple logic.

that's BS. There is thing called, making payments. You can do that with your health care the same as buying a car. Many people still do it and don't want you SPEAKING for them or sticking your nose in their business

Yes, some people can make payments, and do. And, some people can't make payments, and don't. Just curious here, what do you think a monthly payment would be for an operation and hospital stay that cost $750,000? Have any idea ??

I'll use my insurance as an example. It would cost me $750 out of pocket max. My insurance is called health reimbursement. My deductible is $3000 of which my employer pays $2250 after I pay the first $750. My total out of pocket is $6000/year. After the $3000 deductible is met, my coverage is 80/20 which my employer covers that 20% if it's inpatient. That means once the $6000 is met, I no longer pay a dime. Since $2250 of the deductible and all $3000 of the next $3000 to get to the max out of pocket of $6000 is covered, I pay no more than $750 out of pocket personally.

I recently had knee replacement surgery. The total of all bills for pre surgery PT, surgery, anesthesia, surgeon fee, hospital fees, post surgery PT, etc. was about $85000. I paid $750. Once all the bills came in and my employer wrote me the reimbursement for $5250, I paid the $6000 in bills.

That's because you had insurance. I wasn't talking about people that have some type of coverage. I was talking about people with zero coverage.

 

[Conservative65]

What capitalism? The government sets almost ALL the rules of engagement in healthcare. There is almost zero competition in the medical device because of the government, the insurance mandated by the government to providers and the list goes on and on.

But do not let the facts get in the way of a good old socialist yammering of the "workings of capitalism" where there is none.

Government fucked the system up, therefore we need more government!

Litigation fucked up the system. Perhaps we need more litigation.

It was GREED that caused the profession to explode with price gouging and corruption.

Really? So, why just the medical profession? Most people have no idea how to grow their own food, most cannot legally build their own house.

Aren't these professions also ripe for greed?

Methinks you are barking up the wrong tree.

Mark

You are correct. It's not only the health care industry, but most all others. GREED influences corporate America, which is aided and abetted by Washington politics. Many industries are corrupt, including the U.S. government.

I thought businesses went into business to make profit. If a business makes a profit, although you might think it's too much, how is that greed?

 

[Conservative65]

Capitalism at it's best...

What capitalism? The government sets almost ALL the rules of engagement in healthcare. There is almost zero competition in the medical device because of the government, the insurance mandated by the government to providers and the list goes on and on.

But do not let the facts get in the way of a good old socialist yammering of the "workings of capitalism" where there is none.

What those who support Obamacare don't get is that there

If that were the decision, we'd be more rational about it. But it's not. The decision is whether or not to it's fair to burden some faceless, socialized, health-care cost sharing scheme. Faced with that kind of decision, there's every incentive to go for broke.
No, there's not. If the average person can't afford basic health care, there's something seriously wrong. Something socializing costs isn't going to solve.

FYI - The average person can NOT afford basic health care. I just had an MRI that cost over $4,000. My prescriptions would cost a lot of money each month without insurance covering 95% of the cost. Can you imagine what the expense it would be for a family of four just to have an annual check-up? Do you realize what lab work cost? Do you know what an average doctor visit cost? The average person is doing well just to pay mortgage ( rent ), food, transportation, utilities, clothing, and insurance on their home and auto. Most people do not have a nest egg to draw from. People aren't making the money they use to make. The cost of living has gone up. Employers are paying less benefits for employees. A lot of college kids have enormous student loan debt. Seniors have lost equity in their homes, and some have lost part of their pensions due to mismanagement of the funds by unions and cities. We are not a wealthy citizenry. We are not a self-supporting people, nor a self-supporting nation. Proper health care is an enormous cost. At some point, almost everyone needs some form of assistance. Again, common sense and simple logic.

that's BS. There is thing called, making payments. You can do that with your health care the same as buying a car. Many people still do it and don't want you SPEAKING for them or sticking your nose in their business

Yes, some people can make payments, and do. And, some people can't make payments, and don't. Just curious here, what do you think a monthly payment would be for an operation and hospital stay that cost $750,000? Have any idea ??

I'll use my insurance as an example. It would cost me $750 out of pocket max. My insurance is called health reimbursement. My deductible is $3000 of which my employer pays $2250 after I pay the first $750. My total out of pocket is $6000/year. After the $3000 deductible is met, my coverage is 80/20 which my employer covers that 20% if it's inpatient. That means once the $6000 is met, I no longer pay a dime. Since $2250 of the deductible and all $3000 of the next $3000 to get to the max out of pocket of $6000 is covered, I pay no more than $750 out of pocket personally.

I recently had knee replacement surgery. The total of all bills for pre surgery PT, surgery, anesthesia, surgeon fee, hospital fees, post surgery PT, etc. was about $85000. I paid $750. Once all the bills came in and my employer wrote me the reimbursement for $5250, I paid the $6000 in bills.

That's because you had insurance. I wasn't talking about people that have some type of coverage. I was talking about people with zero coverage.

When they can go to the hospital or doctor and the rest of us pay more, why would they have coverage? I'm old enough to remember when there was something called Major Medical. It covered major medical events like the surgery I had, broken arms, and other major things for which people couldn't pay out of pocket. Basic doctor's visits were paid out of pocket. It worked well as far as I know.

 

[Conservative65]

"Some people" aren't the problem. The problem isn't social safety nets. The problem is that we're trying to fit everyone into those safety nets, which defeats the purpose. The only way we can help out the people who fall through the cracks is if most of us are paying our own way.

Most of us aren't paying our own way because of depressed wage standards. You could be well above the poverty line and minim wage pay, and still not be able to afford medical care. I was attacked a few weeks ago on the street. $12,000 bill for about 12 hours in the ER and an ambulance ride. That is about what a min wage worker makes in an entire year.

With all the opportunities people have today, how does anyone still only have skills to make minimum wage?

 

[Conservative65]

Proper health care is a right, a humane and civil society necessity. And, I wasn't saying that food and highways are like health care. I was saying that no single individual can pay for their own highways, and no single individual can pay for their own health care, with maybe a few exceptions. What do we do with those that can't pay their own way when it comes to proper health care? Do we allow them to just die on the street like animals?

Yeah because millions of people die in the streets.

If you want to be taken seriously cut out the hyperbole.

If you want to be taken seriously, then please explain the alternative that we have to shared health care cost. How can we do it better, without insurance and government assistance programs? How can we fix it so that everyone pays their way?

Get out of the way.

Meaning what exactly? Please explain. Thanks.

Meaning: stop trying to control how other people take care of their health. Meaning: stop using government to tell people what kind of health care they're allowed to seek. Stop trying to tell people how they can pay for their health care.

People aren't, generally, stupid. We can take care of ourselves without resorting to coercive state mandates.

Last year my daughters went to get their flu shots. There was a sign in the office that stated if someone didn't have insurance, the shot costs $10. I guess that covered the cost of the vaccine. Don't know, just speculating. My daughters are covered under my insurance and, while there wasn't a copay for such services, when I got the bill for what my insurance didn't cover, it costs me more than $10. I called and asked why I couldn't have just paid the $10. I was told it was because I had insurance. I have a feeling the charge my insurance paid and what I paid beyond what they covered made up for what the doctors didn't charge those without insurance.

 

[Sonny Clark]

Government fucked the system up, therefore we need more government!

Litigation fucked up the system. Perhaps we need more litigation.

It was GREED that caused the profession to explode with price gouging and corruption.

Really? So, why just the medical profession? Most people have no idea how to grow their own food, most cannot legally build their own house.

Aren't these professions also ripe for greed?

Methinks you are barking up the wrong tree.

Mark

You are correct. It's not only the health care industry, but most all others. GREED influences corporate America, which is aided and abetted by Washington politics. Many industries are corrupt, including the U.S. government.

I thought businesses went into business to make profit. If a business makes a profit, although you might think it's too much, how is that greed?

There is a difference between a profit and extremely greedy gains. Lets say that it cost an oil company $10.00 a barrel to extract the oil. Lets say that refining and transportation cost another $20.00 a barrel. Let say that the oil company needs at least $20.00 per barrel profit in order to satisfy stock holders. That's $50.00 per barrel net to meet operating needs and show a profit. And, now lets say that commodity speculators push that price to $110.00 per barrel. Profit or Greed? Lets say that a hospital buys aspirins for $3.00 per bottle of a 100 tablets. And, lets say that they charge patients $5.00 for a single aspirin. Profit or Greed? Lets say an auto mechanic buys spark plugs for $1.50 each. And, lets say that after he installs them in a customers car, he charges $10.00 per plug. Profit or Greed? That's just for the spark plug, not the labor. There are many examples of price gouging. I remember when gas stations were fined for price gouging. It happens each and every day. That's why CEO's make $40,000,000 per year plus stock options.

 

[Conservative65]

Litigation fucked up the system. Perhaps we need more litigation.

It was GREED that caused the profession to explode with price gouging and corruption.

Really? So, why just the medical profession? Most people have no idea how to grow their own food, most cannot legally build their own house.

Aren't these professions also ripe for greed?

Methinks you are barking up the wrong tree.

Mark

You are correct. It's not only the health care industry, but most all others. GREED influences corporate America, which is aided and abetted by Washington politics. Many industries are corrupt, including the U.S. government.

I thought businesses went into business to make profit. If a business makes a profit, although you might think it's too much, how is that greed?

There is a difference between a profit and extremely greedy gains. Lets say that it cost an oil company $10.00 a barrel to extract the oil. Lets say that refining and transportation cost another $20.00 a barrel. Let say that the oil company needs at least $20.00 per barrel profit in order to satisfy stock holders. That's $50.00 per barrel net to meet operating needs and show a profit. And, now lets say that commodity speculators push that price to $110.00 per barrel. Profit or Greed? Lets say that a hospital buys aspirins for $3.00 per bottle of a 100 tablets. And, lets say that they charge patients $5.00 for a single aspirin. Profit or Greed? Lets say an auto mechanic buys spark plugs for $1.50 each. And, lets say that after he installs them in a customers car, he charges $10.00 per plug. Profit or Greed? That's just for the spark plug, not the labor. There are many examples of price gouging. I remember when gas stations were fined for price gouging. It happens each and every day. That's why CEO's make $40,000,000 per year plus stock options.

There is a difference only to those who think it's their place to define how much the other guy should make.

Don't drive a vehicle that uses gas. Buy your own spark plugs and replace them yourself. It's not price gouging if there are options not requiring the use of those things.

A CEO makes what he/she makes because those running the company decide to do that. I could say what you make is too much and that unless you're willing to make less so someone else can make more, you're greedy. See how that works?

 

[Sonny Clark]

It was GREED that caused the profession to explode with price gouging and corruption.

Really? So, why just the medical profession? Most people have no idea how to grow their own food, most cannot legally build their own house.

Aren't these professions also ripe for greed?

Methinks you are barking up the wrong tree.

Mark

You are correct. It's not only the health care industry, but most all others. GREED influences corporate America, which is aided and abetted by Washington politics. Many industries are corrupt, including the U.S. government.

I thought businesses went into business to make profit. If a business makes a profit, although you might think it's too much, how is that greed?

There is a difference between a profit and extremely greedy gains. Lets say that it cost an oil company $10.00 a barrel to extract the oil. Lets say that refining and transportation cost another $20.00 a barrel. Let say that the oil company needs at least $20.00 per barrel profit in order to satisfy stock holders. That's $50.00 per barrel net to meet operating needs and show a profit. And, now lets say that commodity speculators push that price to $110.00 per barrel. Profit or Greed? Lets say that a hospital buys aspirins for $3.00 per bottle of a 100 tablets. And, lets say that they charge patients $5.00 for a single aspirin. Profit or Greed? Lets say an auto mechanic buys spark plugs for $1.50 each. And, lets say that after he installs them in a customers car, he charges $10.00 per plug. Profit or Greed? That's just for the spark plug, not the labor. There are many examples of price gouging. I remember when gas stations were fined for price gouging. It happens each and every day. That's why CEO's make $40,000,000 per year plus stock options.

There is a difference only to those who think it's their place to define how much the other guy should make.

Don't drive a vehicle that uses gas. Buy your own spark plugs and replace them yourself. It's not price gouging if there are options not requiring the use of those things.

A CEO makes what he/she makes because those running the company decide to do that. I could say what you make is too much and that unless you're willing to make less so someone else can make more, you're greedy. See how that works?

I understand your point.

 

[Treeshepherd]

Yeah because millions of people die in the streets.

If you want to be taken seriously cut out the hyperbole.

If you want to be taken seriously, then please explain the alternative that we have to shared health care cost. How can we do it better, without insurance and government assistance programs? How can we fix it so that everyone pays their way?

Get out of the way.

Meaning what exactly? Please explain. Thanks.

Meaning: stop trying to control how other people take care of their health. Meaning: stop using government to tell people what kind of health care they're allowed to seek. Stop trying to tell people how they can pay for their health care.

People aren't, generally, stupid. We can take care of ourselves without resorting to coercive state mandates.

Last year my daughters went to get their flu shots. There was a sign in the office that stated if someone didn't have insurance, the shot costs $10. I guess that covered the cost of the vaccine. Don't know, just speculating. My daughters are covered under my insurance and, while there wasn't a copay for such services, when I got the bill for what my insurance didn't cover, it costs me more than $10. I called and asked why I couldn't have just paid the $10. I was told it was because I had insurance. I have a feeling the charge my insurance paid and what I paid beyond what they covered made up for what the doctors didn't charge those without insurance.

Unless a kid is immune compromised, he/she doesn't need a flu shot, especially since its effectiveness is dubious. It's total overkill how many shots kids get today (and profit driven).
What's in a flu shot? Probably nothing helpful. What else? Formaldehyde, egg protein, Octylphenol ethoxylate, gelatin derived from pigs, and Thimerosal.

Flu vaccine effectiveness is almost always measured simply by the presence of antibodies, and not actual epidemiological verifiable results. In fact, the vaccine can backfire if the subject is exposed to a strong flu strain not covered by the jab. In that case, you're much better off by having natural antibodies which are not 'specialized' or 'engineered' to fight specific flu strains.
Medical Xpress Vaccination may make flu worse if exposed to a second strain

 

[Treeshepherd]

The concern of doctors is to make things as simple as possible, and not give people 'dangerous' information which might confuse people or discourage them from following the program.
I saw a program on PBS where the doctors were concerned about informing patients about side effects. Their rationale; the power of the mind is so influential over health that any suggestion of a side effects can indeed cause that effect to materialize. The placebo effect is incredibly powerful, to both the positive and the negative.

If you understand the power of the mind over health, you realize that maybe an inert shot of saline solution might have a powerful effect in preventing flu. If flu vaccines are effective, it's most likely due to a placebo effect.

 

[dblack]

When they can go to the hospital or doctor and the rest of us pay more, why would they have coverage? I'm old enough to remember when there was something called Major Medical. It covered major medical events like the surgery I had, broken arms, and other major things for which people couldn't pay out of pocket. Basic doctor's visits were paid out of pocket. It worked well as far as I know.

Exactly. This is the only way insurance makes any sense - as a way to cover catastrophes that most of us won't have to face. For expenses we can reasonably expect, it makes far more sense to pay for them out of pocket, or via a payment plan. Using insurance to finance regular expenses is a sucker's game. Used in that way it's essentially a high priced credit card. But it's even worse than that because, once insurance becomes the principal means of funding in a given market, it perverts incentives and inflates prices.

This won't change by regulating insurance via government, or even by providing insurance with government ala "single payer". It will still be a dumb way to finance regular health care expenses.

 

[Ame®icano]

Capitalism at it's best...

What capitalism? The government sets almost ALL the rules of engagement in healthcare. There is almost zero competition in the medical device because of the government, the insurance mandated by the government to providers and the list goes on and on.

But do not let the facts get in the way of a good old socialist yammering of the "workings of capitalism" where there is none.

What those who support Obamacare don't get is that there

If that were the decision, we'd be more rational about it. But it's not. The decision is whether or not to it's fair to burden some faceless, socialized, health-care cost sharing scheme. Faced with that kind of decision, there's every incentive to go for broke.
No, there's not. If the average person can't afford basic health care, there's something seriously wrong. Something socializing costs isn't going to solve.

FYI - The average person can NOT afford basic health care. I just had an MRI that cost over $4,000. My prescriptions would cost a lot of money each month without insurance covering 95% of the cost. Can you imagine what the expense it would be for a family of four just to have an annual check-up? Do you realize what lab work cost? Do you know what an average doctor visit cost? The average person is doing well just to pay mortgage ( rent ), food, transportation, utilities, clothing, and insurance on their home and auto. Most people do not have a nest egg to draw from. People aren't making the money they use to make. The cost of living has gone up. Employers are paying less benefits for employees. A lot of college kids have enormous student loan debt. Seniors have lost equity in their homes, and some have lost part of their pensions due to mismanagement of the funds by unions and cities. We are not a wealthy citizenry. We are not a self-supporting people, nor a self-supporting nation. Proper health care is an enormous cost. At some point, almost everyone needs some form of assistance. Again, common sense and simple logic.

that's BS. There is thing called, making payments. You can do that with your health care the same as buying a car. Many people still do it and don't want you SPEAKING for them or sticking your nose in their business

Yes, some people can make payments, and do. And, some people can't make payments, and don't. Just curious here, what do you think a monthly payment would be for an operation and hospital stay that cost $750,000? Have any idea ??

I'll use my insurance as an example. It would cost me $750 out of pocket max. My insurance is called health reimbursement. My deductible is $3000 of which my employer pays $2250 after I pay the first $750. My total out of pocket is $6000/year. After the $3000 deductible is met, my coverage is 80/20 which my employer covers that 20% if it's inpatient. That means once the $6000 is met, I no longer pay a dime. Since $2250 of the deductible and all $3000 of the next $3000 to get to the max out of pocket of $6000 is covered, I pay no more than $750 out of pocket personally.

I recently had knee replacement surgery. The total of all bills for pre surgery PT, surgery, anesthesia, surgeon fee, hospital fees, post surgery PT, etc. was about $85000. I paid $750. Once all the bills came in and my employer wrote me the reimbursement for $5250, I paid the $6000 in bills.

That's because you had insurance. I wasn't talking about people that have some type of coverage. I was talking about people with zero coverage.

Without getting in "why they have no coverage", I am asking why am I, or should I be responsible for them?

 

[JoeMoma]

What's wrong with this option?:

My heart is failing which means it's time for me to die. Why has it become imperative that I be kept alive at all costs? Is it fair for me to burden my family with giant medical costs just so I can add a few more years of life which would likely be a low quality of life?

If that were the decision, we'd be more rational about it. But it's not. The decision is whether or not to it's fair to burden some faceless, socialized, health-care cost sharing scheme. Faced with that kind of decision, there's every incentive to go for broke.

I understand what you're saying here. But, still, the problem is one of rising cost, and individuals need some form of assistance in order to get the necessary treatment they need when it comes to proper health care. Regardless of whether we have choices or not, regardless of whether those choices include government requirements, and regardless of insurance or lack of insurance, we still need help paying for proper health care. It's not a choice of paying or allowing others to subsidize it, we all need some form of help paying for health care.

Again, I have to ask you to check the sanity of such a statement. If we all need help, who's doing the "helping"?

There's a lot of sanity in the statement. It's factual and a truism. The help is coming from taxpayers, charities, trust funds, family members, and from debt forgiveness. Examples: Medicare, Medicaid, trust funds such as St. Jude's Children Hospital, and in some cases, debt forgiveness which turns into tax write-offs. Just common sense and simple logic.

No, there's not. If the average person can't afford basic health care, there's something seriously wrong. Something socializing costs isn't going to solve.

FYI - The average person can NOT afford basic health care. I just had an MRI that cost over $4,000. My prescriptions would cost a lot of money each month without insurance covering 95% of the cost. Can you imagine what the expense it would be for a family of four just to have an annual check-up? Do you realize what lab work cost? Do you know what an average doctor visit cost? The average person is doing well just to pay mortgage ( rent ), food, transportation, utilities, clothing, and insurance on their home and auto. Most people do not have a nest egg to draw from. People aren't making the money they use to make. The cost of living has gone up. Employers are paying less benefits for employees. A lot of college kids have enormous student loan debt. Seniors have lost equity in their homes, and some have lost part of their pensions due to mismanagement of the funds by unions and cities. We are not a wealthy citizenry. We are not a self-supporting people, nor a self-supporting nation. Proper health care is an enormous cost. At some point, almost everyone needs some form of assistance. Again, common sense and simple logic.

that's BS. There is thing called, making payments. You can do that with your health care the same as buying a car. Many people still do it and don't want you SPEAKING for them or sticking your nose in their business

Making payments is essentially what we are doing when we pay for insurance, only we are making the payments on the front end when the cost of medical care is not known so there can be no haggling.