A good, Fact-finding Article on the VP Debate

Discussion in 'Politics' started by -Cp, Oct 6, 2004.

  1. -Cp
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    -Cp Senior Member

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    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,134580,00.html

    WASHINGTON — Democrat John Edwards (search) and Vice President Dick Cheney (search) stretched the findings of U.S. intelligence to their own ends Tuesday night in tangling over Saddam Hussein's alleged ties to Al Qaeda.

    Edwards said the connection between Saddam and the terrorist network was minimal or nonexistent; Cheney asserted Saddam's Iraq "had an established relationship with Al Qaeda."

    Both statements mask what intelligence sources have said. The contacts were limited and sketchy, mostly Iraqi intelligence agents and Al Qaeda operatives, and did not amount to state sponsorship of Al Qaeda (search) or any link to the Sept. 11 attacks, U.S. intelligence officials have said.

    But the recent Senate Intelligence Committee report on flawed Iraqi intelligence did conclude that the CIA reasonably assessed there probably were several contacts between Iraq and Al Qaeda throughout the 1990s, although they did not add up to a formal relationship.

    The exchange was typical of a night in which each accused the other of mangling facts and traded accusations at a faster pace than in the presidential debate last week.

    "More attacks, more problematic facts," said Kathleen Hall Jamieson, director of the Annenberg Public Policy Center at the University of Pennsylvania, comparing this debate with the last. She said Edwards and Cheney had more of a chance to challenge each other on distorted claims than President Bush and Democrat John Kerry did, but "still a lot of factual inaccuracies were left standing."

    In perhaps the most awkward blooper of the evening, Cheney told Edwards to his face that they had never met before the debate, despite evidence they had.

    Edwards' campaign later provided a transcript of a February 2001 prayer breakfast at which Cheney began his remarks by acknowledging the North Carolina senator. The campaign said the two also met when Edwards accompanied the other North Carolina senator, Elizabeth Dole, to her swearing-in ceremony.

    Cheney was trying to make the point that Edwards was an absentee senator. "The first time I ever met you was when you walked on the stage tonight."

    At one point, Edwards attacked Cheney for the administration's decision to give billions of dollars in new contracts to the vice president's former company, Halliburton. But congressional auditors recently reviewed those contracts and concluded U.S. officials met legal guidelines in awarding the business without competition — in part because Halliburton was the only company capable of doing some of the work.

    He also asserted, "They sent 40,000 American troops into Iraq without the body armor they needed," a comment that might suggest they had no body armor at all, when in fact they did.

    Gen. Peter Pace, vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs, said 40,000 troops did not have the brand new, improved armor but, "every soldier and Marine on the ground over had body armor."

    Cheney accused Kerry of voting for taxes 98 times. That's down from the 350 times wrongly claimed by Republicans, but it's still a stretch. Those 98 votes include times when Kerry voted for lower taxes — but not as low as Republicans wanted. And times when many procedural votes were cast on a single tax increase or package.

    Touching on one of the Democratic ticket's favorite themes, Edwards declared the Bush administration is "for outsourcing jobs," taking out of context comments from Labor Secretary Elaine Chao (search) and a report by a council of economists who advise the president. Bush and Cheney have not said they support the practice of U.S companies sending jobs from the United States to cheaper labor in other countries.

    The Council of Economic Advisers said job outsourcing is part of a healthy dynamic in which free trade in return benefits Americans. And Chao said last month that the concerns about job losses ignore that foreign-owned companies are creating many jobs in the United States at the same time.

    Chao said employers have eliminated about 300,000 jobs in the United States in favor of cheaper labor elsewhere, but about 9 million Americans currently work for U.S. subsidiaries of foreign-owned companies.

    Also in the debate:

    —Edwards said that while U.S. troops were fighting in Iraq, the Bush administration "lobbied the Congress to cut their combat pay. This is the height of hypocrisy."

    It's also arguable. When the government faced prospects that increased allowances for the troops would expire as stipulated by Congress, the Pentagon said it would make up any shortfall through incentive pay or similar means.

    —Cheney took Kerry out of context in quoting him as saying that he favored a global test before he would deploy U.S. troops to pre-empt an attack on the United States.

    Kerry said in his debate that he would not cede to anyone the right to move pre-emptively against a threat but that he would do so in a way that proved to Americans and the world that he had taken the action for a legitimate reason.
     
  2. tim_duncan2000
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    tim_duncan2000 Active Member

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    What if the US considered the reasons to be legitimate, but "the world" didn't (I put the world in quotes because the world is whoever people decide that it is)? What would he do then?
     
  3. nycflasher
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    nycflasher Active Member

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    What if the reasons the Administration called legitimate were, in fact, not?
    Oh, and the U.S. is not a "he".
     
  4. hylandrdet
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    hylandrdet Member

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    "In perhaps the most awkward blooper of the evening, Cheney told Edwards to his face that they had never met before the debate, despite evidence they had.

    Edwards' campaign later provided a transcript of a February 2001 prayer breakfast at which Cheney began his remarks by acknowledging the North Carolina senator. The campaign said the two also met when Edwards accompanied the other North Carolina senator, Elizabeth Dole, to her swearing-in ceremony."

    To add on to that, Cheney had met with Sen. John Edwards on the set of NBC's "Meet the Press". NBC aired today a video from that very show in which Cheney declared Iraq as "The geographic center" of the terrorist network. Excuse me, but didn't Cheney last night said that he had NEVER suggested that Iraq had ties to terrorist networks? In one quick swoop, Meet The Press had exposed Cheney as a liar on both the meetings with Edwards and Iraq's connection to terrorism.

    "At one point, Edwards attacked Cheney for the administration's decision to give billions of dollars in new contracts to the vice president's former company, Halliburton. But congressional auditors recently reviewed those contracts and concluded U.S. officials met legal guidelines in awarding the business without competition — in part because Halliburton was the only company capable of doing some of the work."

    That is true. If there was any flaw in Edwards' performance it was here. I don't blame him though; Cheney has a way of being very intimidating. He should had left that one out.

    My personal evaluation of both candidates

    Dick Cheney

    Biggest move- His attack on Edwards concerning the hundreds of Iraqis who'd died in the defense of a new Iraq. People do have a tendency to forget about the little guy.

    Worst move- Forgetting what he had said and done in the past. The Meet the Press debacle as well as his votes against MLK day and Mandela's release bit him dead square in the behind.

    Overall grade- C
    In a situation in which Cheney could go in no other direction but down, his experience and calm demeanor salvaged his end of the debate.

    Sen. John Edwards

    Biggest move- He is a great lawyer and he'd performed like one. Notice that he always had time to respond to the last question before he'll answer the current question.

    This man is an excellent lawyer; he'd kept his answers to the current question down to 10 seconds, thus giving him 20 seconds to get the last word on the previous question. Lawyers live and die off getting the last word; his performance had "law school 101" written all over it.

    Worst move- Edwards failed to explain why Kerry voted the way he did on the War in Iraq. I understand Kerry's position.

    Kerry voted for the war under a promise from president Bush that the president would seek UN support. Bush betrayed Kerry by going to war without UN support. Kerry voted against the 87 billion dollar package for the troops in hopes that Bush would consider UN support first. Explain this position to the people properly and they will understand Kerry's concerns as well as his plans.

    Final grade- B
    While Cheney was debating to win, Edwards was debating NOT to lose. Edwards successfully passed the ball back to Kerry; it's now up to Kerry to slam it home.

    "WMD stands for Weapons of Mass Deception. The world would be a better place to live if we can rid ALL nations of such WMDs" -hylandrdet
    :bye1:
     
  5. MissileMan
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    MissileMan Senior Member

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    :poop:

    Kerry is like the Wizard of Oz! "Pay no attention to the man behind the record!"
     
  6. nycflasher
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    nycflasher Active Member

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    Except that the Wizard of Oz is a fictional character and John Kerry will soon be your next President.
     
  7. hylandrdet
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    hylandrdet Member

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    "Pay no attention to the man behind the record!"

    I am missleman, that's why I plan to vote for Kerry!! :nine:
     
  8. tim_duncan2000
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    tim_duncan2000 Active Member

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    I was referring to Kerry in that last sentence, not the US.

    Bush did seek UN support, but they wouldn't support it. I fail to see how he betrayed Kerry because he at least tried. Apparently, they were to busy being on the take with the oil-for-fraud program.

    As far as the vote against the 87 billion dollar package for the troops goes, he did that because, at the time, Dean was ahead and his anti-war stance connected with people.
     

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