A Double Standard

Mar 18, 2004
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This past week, the entire world was introduced to disturbing, appalling, and pathetic pictures of American soldiers humiliating and abusing Iraqi prisoners of war, in the Abu Ghraib prison south of Baghdad. The pictures prompted the military and the Departments of Defense and State to investigate, and these actions were condemned by every politician, including the president, on both sides of the political spectrum; as they should be. These pictures showed naked Iraqis, forced to being put in sexual positions, as well as a hooded man who was taped with wires and was forced to stand on a box. He was told if he fell off the box, he would be electrocuted.

These actions brought up a debate about what is and what isn’t acceptable in the interrogation of prisoners of war. The bottom line is these acts were the actions of six to twelve American soldiers, not the American military. They are not condoned by anyone in our country, for they do not represent American values and ideals.

But even as President Bush expressed his sympathy to the Arab world on Arab TV and gave his apology to moderate Arab leaders and Iraqi citizens, and even as the American military immediately vowed to take action against these few individuals who did this, the French newspaper Le Monde has called American troops “Iraq’s new Saddam.” Let’s get something straight: over 700 American soldiers have died to free a nation from a ruthless tyrant. American taxpayers have spent hundreds of billions of dollars, and will continue to do so, to supply Iraq with enough food, water, electricity, power, and energy, to get their country up and running after three decades of neglect. The Iraqi government gassed and slaughtered over 750,000 civilians… and no uproar happened, yet six American individuals embarrassed some prisoners of war, and we’re the world’s biggest bully? When Saddam Hussein was asked in 1998, why he would order the rape of the wives of men who opposed him, he stated, “What else do you expect, if you oppose the regime?” Yet, when six Americans get too rambunctious, our entire government looks into the situation to hold these people accountable. We did not feed Iraqi civilians into wood chippers. We did not make civilians drink molten lead. We did not put a rat on their stomach, and place a kitchen pot on top of it. That was the man we were sent there to remove. While these actions of a few individuals are cruel and un-American, there is no comparison, much the way there is no perspective throughout the world.

Just recently, Sudan won an election in the United Nation’s main human rights watchdog, even after all of the ethnic cleansing and genocide in Sudan’s Darfur region, where millions of non-Muslim Africans have been killed by the Islamic Sudanese government. Their government, not six individuals, did these actions. No uproar is heard. In fact, their actions are overlooked. Syria, a sponsor of terrorism, has a Security Council vote, and Libya, an oppressive dictatorship, is actually in charge of Human Rights within the United Nations. Saudi Arabia’s secret police recently locked the doors to a girl’s college dormitory, after it caught fire, out of fear the girls did not put on their veils before fleeing the burning building. Over 560 girls were locked in the dormitory when it burned down. No mention is made of that. Of course, bad behavior does not excuse bad behavior, but these backward countries have been legitimized, even after all the ethnic cleansing, genocide, mass murder, rape, and torture of millions of their citizens.

While European and Arab media outlets are gleefully enjoying this opportunity to demonize all of America, no mention is made that when Iran, an enemy if there ever was an enemy, suffered a devastating earthquake killing thousands, it was the United States who offered to help. No mention is made that when a train crashed in communist North Korea, a nation actively trying to acquire nuclear weapons, it was the United States who offered help.

Instead, there is a double standard. Instead, they focus in on the actions of six soldiers against ten or so prisoners. Nobody with a right mind condones what those six soldiers did to the Iraqi prisoners. But things have yet to be taken into context. In a war, irrationality can sometimes flourish, and people are bound to cross the line. These actions do not represent the majority of the brave and honorable American troops, who have been called to do unprecedented things. Americans are not just actively trying to secure and stabilize Iraq, but these 19 and 20 year old kids are being asked to pave roads, serve food, and build schools, and in one case, an American Marine was asked to coach an Iraqi high school soccer team. The undignified actions of a few should never taint the honorable and noble mission of the mass, and while we willingly continue to hold the highest standard for human rights, we are given the shortest leash. Is there a double standard? Yes. Will we complain to any large degree? No, that’s not our style.
 
What percentage of American troops were involved in this? Out of 200,000 in the Middle East, 135,000 in Iraq...

What is it, 10 guys? 20? 50? So it was .00001%, basically.

Gimme a break. There's a double standard and you know it. Everyone loves to hate the military and economic superpower.
 
He hopes. Everyone who hates capitalism and Bush is gleefully enjoying this.

49 Dems today didn't vote on a House Resolution that praised our troops, but called these acts terrible. What's up with that? Doesn't that make sense? I thought these acts were terrible, which they are, but our troops should be praised, yet Pelosi and Rangel or however you spell their names didn't vote to praise the majority of American troops. They just wanted to blast the actions to the POWs.

These are the same people that when we show them the thousands of mass graves, they say, "Who cares? Where are the WMDs?"

All of a sudden, they are Human Rights lovers... just like Sudan, Libya, and Syria, right?
 
Originally posted by preemptingyou03
He hopes. Everyone who hates capitalism and Bush is gleefully enjoying this.

49 Dems today didn't vote on a House Resolution that praised our troops, but called these acts terrible. What's up with that? Doesn't that make sense? I thought these acts were terrible, which they are, but our troops should be praised, yet Pelosi and Rangel or however you spell their names didn't vote to praise the majority of American troops. They just wanted to blast the actions to the POWs.

These are the same people that when we show them the thousands of mass graves, they say, "Who cares? Where are the WMDs?"

All of a sudden, they are Human Rights lovers... just like Sudan, Libya, and Syria, right?

Selective Outrage. Yes Hannity said it, but it fits.
 
heres a question, how come it is when other countries dissregard the geneva convention its not a big deal, but when the US does it everynes panties are in a bunch?
a little psy-ops never hurt anyone. so they were hooded and naked, big deal.
as far as interrogations go, what ever it takes to get the job done and make sure im safe in my bed, your safe in your bed, and the US borders are safe. if someone has to get hurt in order for that to happen, then it has to happen. the end will justify the means.
 
It's like I said in the other post regarding the double standard. People in america don't understand the main difference between the cultures of the east and middleast vs the west.

Here in america, we have a guilt culture. The east and middle east is a shame culture. while it doesn't sound much different its actually a HUGE difference.
 
Originally posted by preemptingyou03
This past week, the entire world was introduced to disturbing, appalling, and pathetic pictures of American soldiers humiliating and abusing Iraqi prisoners of war, in the Abu Ghraib prison south of Baghdad. The pictures prompted the military and the Departments of Defense and State to investigate, and these actions were condemned by every politician, including the president, on both sides of the political spectrum; as they should be.

I wanted to point out to all sides in the debate over this issue, that, as a fact, the military investigation was well underway since January of this year, based upon allegation of this abuse made in November, 2003. These particular photos have only now become a matter of public domain in the process of an ongoing investigation, which had already placed in suspension a series of officers along the chain of command up the line including the commander of the prison.

There is no scoop which inspired any ass-covering nonesense.

I only mention this because of the lack of information in the media about the military investigation underway.
 
originally posted by preemptingyou03

49 Dems today didn't vote on a House Resolution that praised our troops, but called these acts terrible. What's up with that? Doesn't that make sense? I thought these acts were terrible, which they are, but our troops should be praised, yet Pelosi and Rangel or however you spell their names didn't vote to praise the majority of American troops. They just wanted to blast the actions to the POWs.

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2004/index.asp
"H.RES.627
Title: Deploring the abuse of persons in United States custody in Iraq, regardless of the circumstances of their detention, urging the Secretary of the Army to bring to swift justice any member of the Armed Forces who has violated the Uniform Code of Military Justice, expressing the deep appreciation of the Nation to the courageous and honorable members of the Armed Forces who have selflessly served, or are currently serving, in Operation Iraqi Freedom, and for other purposes.
Sponsor: Rep Hunter, Duncan [CA-52] (introduced 5/5/2004) Cosponsors: (none)
Related Bills: H.RES.628
Latest Major Action: 5/6/2004 Rules Committee Resolution H. Res. 628 Reported to House. Rule provides for consideration of H. Res. 627 with 1 hour of general debate. Motion to recommit allowed. Measure will be considered read. Bill is closed to amendments"

I share your views on the points you made in the basic post for this thread. But in regard to the resolution above, I would have to say that were I in congress, I too would have voted against it. The problem I have with the resolution is this phrase: "urging the Secretary of the Army to bring to swift justice any member of the Armed Forces who has violated the Uniform Code of Military Justice".

The effects of this resolution would be to cheapen the process of military justice with political interference. It would taint any military judicial proceding with the real or perceived element of political pressure. It would also give those who may be found guilty an automatic basis for appeal. There is no place in a true justice system for political meddling.

Picture yourself accused of a crime and congress sends a resolution to the prosecuting attorney that he should ensure "swift justice" for you. Feel that rope tightening?

If they want to praise the troops, then praise the troops. If you want to pass a resolution critical of the acts committed on those prisoners, that's fine too. But don't mix the two. And leave the UCMJ alone. It has worked just fine for many decades without "help" from congress.
 
Originally posted by spillmind
did i not say i BET? :mad: who the hell wishes that this kind of thing happens to anybody?

you putting words in my mouth is REALLY GETTING OLD!

Well i BET that there isnt anymore. I BET that this was an isolated incident involving 7 to 12 people and in no reflects the outstounding amount of good that the other 200,000 soldiers have done.
 
Preemptingyou-

Great work.

It is sad that the double standard is not only being exploited by terrorists, Al Jazeera, & arab governments, but also by American liberals.
 
Originally posted by preemptingyou03
This past week, the entire world was introduced to disturbing, appalling, and pathetic pictures of American soldiers humiliating and abusing Iraqi prisoners of war, in the Abu Ghraib prison south of Baghdad. The pictures prompted the military and the Departments of Defense and State to investigate, and these actions were condemned by every politician, including the president, on both sides of the political spectrum; as they should be. These pictures showed naked Iraqis, forced to being put in sexual positions, as well as a hooded man who was taped with wires and was forced to stand on a box. He was told if he fell off the box, he would be electrocuted.

These actions brought up a debate about what is and what isn’t acceptable in the interrogation of prisoners of war. The bottom line is these acts were the actions of six to twelve American soldiers, not the American military. They are not condoned by anyone in our country, for they do not represent American values and ideals.

But even as President Bush expressed his sympathy to the Arab world on Arab TV and gave his apology to moderate Arab leaders and Iraqi citizens, and even as the American military immediately vowed to take action against these few individuals who did this, the French newspaper Le Monde has called American troops “Iraq’s new Saddam.” Let’s get something straight: over 700 American soldiers have died to free a nation from a ruthless tyrant. American taxpayers have spent hundreds of billions of dollars, and will continue to do so, to supply Iraq with enough food, water, electricity, power, and energy, to get their country up and running after three decades of neglect. The Iraqi government gassed and slaughtered over 750,000 civilians… and no uproar happened, yet six American individuals embarrassed some prisoners of war, and we’re the world’s biggest bully? When Saddam Hussein was asked in 1998, why he would order the rape of the wives of men who opposed him, he stated, “What else do you expect, if you oppose the regime?” Yet, when six Americans get too rambunctious, our entire government looks into the situation to hold these people accountable. We did not feed Iraqi civilians into wood chippers. We did not make civilians drink molten lead. We did not put a rat on their stomach, and place a kitchen pot on top of it. That was the man we were sent there to remove. While these actions of a few individuals are cruel and un-American, there is no comparison, much the way there is no perspective throughout the world.

Just recently, Sudan won an election in the United Nation’s main human rights watchdog, even after all of the ethnic cleansing and genocide in Sudan’s Darfur region, where millions of non-Muslim Africans have been killed by the Islamic Sudanese government. Their government, not six individuals, did these actions. No uproar is heard. In fact, their actions are overlooked. Syria, a sponsor of terrorism, has a Security Council vote, and Libya, an oppressive dictatorship, is actually in charge of Human Rights within the United Nations. Saudi Arabia’s secret police recently locked the doors to a girl’s college dormitory, after it caught fire, out of fear the girls did not put on their veils before fleeing the burning building. Over 560 girls were locked in the dormitory when it burned down. No mention is made of that. Of course, bad behavior does not excuse bad behavior, but these backward countries have been legitimized, even after all the ethnic cleansing, genocide, mass murder, rape, and torture of millions of their citizens.

While European and Arab media outlets are gleefully enjoying this opportunity to demonize all of America, no mention is made that when Iran, an enemy if there ever was an enemy, suffered a devastating earthquake killing thousands, it was the United States who offered to help. No mention is made that when a train crashed in communist North Korea, a nation actively trying to acquire nuclear weapons, it was the United States who offered help.

Instead, there is a double standard. Instead, they focus in on the actions of six soldiers against ten or so prisoners. Nobody with a right mind condones what those six soldiers did to the Iraqi prisoners. But things have yet to be taken into context. In a war, irrationality can sometimes flourish, and people are bound to cross the line. These actions do not represent the majority of the brave and honorable American troops, who have been called to do unprecedented things. Americans are not just actively trying to secure and stabilize Iraq, but these 19 and 20 year old kids are being asked to pave roads, serve food, and build schools, and in one case, an American Marine was asked to coach an Iraqi high school soccer team. The undignified actions of a few should never taint the honorable and noble mission of the mass, and while we willingly continue to hold the highest standard for human rights, we are given the shortest leash. Is there a double standard? Yes. Will we complain to any large degree? No, that’s not our style.

agreed. i mean im just starting to dig deeper into politics becuase im an anarchist and i wanna get a lot more of my fuckin facts strait before i raise any eye brows. [a lot of you are gonna harp on me for that arent you? well bite me....]
and its hard to tell where to begin becuase its so hard to say what to trust. no, not everyone is out to make a anme for themselves. i know theres gotta be some trusty sorces out there and stuff. but its just so hard to fuckin tell you know? and it doesnt matter if your and anarchist, democrat, liberal, reactionary, concervist, or the fuckin pope! bias in the news or glory hounds that run the stories dont usualy discriminate from reader to reader. who the fuck do you listen to?
 
Originally posted by Merlin1047
originally posted by preemptingyou03
<snipped>

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2004/index.asp
"H.RES.627
<snipped>

Picture yourself accused of a crime and congress sends a resolution to the prosecuting attorney that he should ensure "swift justice" for you. Feel that rope tightening?

If they want to praise the troops, then praise the troops. If you want to pass a resolution critical of the acts committed on those prisoners, that's fine too. But don't mix the two. And leave the UCMJ alone. It has worked just fine for many decades without "help" from congress.

Glad to see I am not the only one who thought of this. Imagine a JAG who decided the evidence was obtained illegally? The case goes out the window and the world explodes.
 
Well I've always said, as long as we're better than Saddam Hussein and a bunch of terrorist thugs, we must be doing alright. And as long as we're more humane than Osama Bin Laden and as long as the President isn't getting head in the Oval Office - everything is just hunky dory. As long as those three conditions are met, I don't even care if the world explodes.


Isn't it weird there isn't an Iraq topic heading on this messsage board?


I'm sure those incidences were limited to 7 people. Most systematic torture is just the act of half a dozen low ranking officers.


Why is anyone even surprised? Why are Republicans even disgusted? I mean, you set up a system, a gulag basically, stretching from Cuba to Iraq to Afghanistan and god knows where else, were people go into prison and are classified as having no rights whatsever under military or civilian law, and then you're surprised when their non-recognized rights are violated? WTF did you expect ?!? They don't even have copies of the Geneva Convention at any of these concentration camps, Shrub doesn't recognize their rights, and you're surprised when they are tortured ?!?


I mean, what did you really expect to happen when you classified over 10,000 people as not deserving of rights !?!?


"Gimme a break. There's a double standard and you know it"

You're failing to tell the difference between a "double" standard and a "higher" standard. We hold ourselves to a higher standard than them because, at least I'd like to think, we are better than them.

You're also failing to realize that we can do more to correct our misdeeds than our enemy's. We can whine and complain all day about how mean the terrorists are - and guess what? They're still going to be ruthless savages. But when we see our own government doing wrong, our complaints can actually be heard and acted upon because our own government actually cares what we think of it.


Members of the United States military are guilty of war crimes, and all you guys can think to talk about is how bad Saddam Hussein is? WE KNOW Saddam Hussein's bad, WE'VE KNOWN it for a LONG TIME. MOVE ON.
 
Originally posted by SpidermanTuba
Well I've always said, as long as we're better than Saddam Hussein and a bunch of terrorist thugs, we must be doing alright. And as long as we're more humane than Osama Bin Laden and as long as the President isn't getting head in the Oval Office - everything is just hunky dory. As long as those three conditions are met, I don't even care if the world explodes.


Isn't it weird there isn't an Iraq topic heading on this messsage board?


I'm sure those incidences were limited to 7 people. Most systematic torture is just the act of half a dozen low ranking officers.


Why is anyone even surprised? Why are Republicans even disgusted? I mean, you set up a system, a gulag basically, stretching from Cuba to Iraq to Afghanistan and god knows where else, were people go into prison and are classified as having no rights whatsever under military or civilian law, and then you're surprised when their non-recognized rights are violated? WTF did you expect ?!? They don't even have copies of the Geneva Convention at any of these concentration camps, Shrub doesn't recognize their rights, and you're surprised when they are tortured ?!?


I mean, what did you really expect to happen when you classified over 10,000 people as not deserving of rights !?!?


"Gimme a break. There's a double standard and you know it"

You're failing to tell the difference between a "double" standard and a "higher" standard. We hold ourselves to a higher standard than them because, at least I'd like to think, we are better than them.

You're also failing to realize that we can do more to correct our misdeeds than our enemy's. We can whine and complain all day about how mean the terrorists are - and guess what? They're still going to be ruthless savages. But when we see our own government doing wrong, our complaints can actually be heard and acted upon because our own government actually cares what we think of it.


Members of the United States military are guilty of war crimes, and all you guys can think to talk about is how bad Saddam Hussein is? WE KNOW Saddam Hussein's bad, WE'VE KNOWN it for a LONG TIME. MOVE ON.

Actually this is under investigation and has been since January. Just in case you conviently forgot that part. Also we do hold ourselves to a higher standard and hold our people accountable for their actions. That is why these people will not go unpunished.

The double standard in question is not of America in general. Its the one that our Liberal MEdia and liberals in general falsely hold because they want to try and pin anything they can on our President.

Compare.

Non-stop round the clock coverage of this incident on all the major news networks for 7+ days. Public outrage. Liberal Senators calling for the head of Donald Rumsfield.

vs

2 days if that on the civilian casualties where the bodies were drug through the streets by an insurgent mob. Civilian Hostages taken and executed from other countries by insurgents and terrorists. No public cry for anyones head. No outrage by liberal senators at the actions of the insurgents.

That is the double standard. When someone says they care about human life and yet doesnt give a shit when people are actually killed compared to when some criminals are humiliated.
 
Unfortunately it appears the occurances may be much more widespread. There are already two cases of homicide committed against prisoners, and the possibility exists that up to 20 prisoners may have been murdered. That's pretty serious. Those statistics came straight out of Donald Rumsfeld's mouth today at the hearing.

Don't try to minimize this. The damage it has caused our country and especially the great majority of our troops who are honest, decent and would never do this sort of thing is immeasurable. We cannot compare ourselves to terrorists. To say, oh well, whatever happened is okay because the terrorists did it too is both wrong and un-American.

acludem
 
Actually this is under investigation and has been since January. Just in case you conviently forgot that part.

Actually, I was well aware of this investigation since January. But at that time, all you warmongers claimed it was just the silly liberal media conspiring to defame our Fearless War President.


Its the one that our Liberal MEdia and liberals in general falsely hold because they want to try and pin anything they can on our President.

That's right, we shouldn't hold Shrub accountable for his actions, he's infallible and to critisize the President is unAmerican and unDemocratic.


2 days if that on the civilian casualties where the bodies were drug through the streets by an insurgent mob.


Well gee, I'm sorry you felt coverage of that story wasn't in depth enough. Perhaps you'd prefer it get reprinted everyday in its entirety for a month, even though we have absolutely no new information related to it? Meanwhile, as the investigation in to US war crimes progresses and new information comes out everyday, we'll just ignore that.

Besides, I thought all you wanted to hear was good news from Iraq. News about Iraqi mobs dragging the bodies of US contractors through the streets isn't exactly good news, is it? Don't you think it'd be better not to even talk about it, you know, for the troop morale and public support thing?

No public cry for anyones head. No outrage by liberal senators at the actions of the insurgents.

You are aware that we are in Iraq, fighting these insurgents, aren't you?


You just don't get it. We are supposed to be outraged when our troops commit atrocities because we aren't like that. WE ALREADY KNOW terrorists are bad, and you expect everyone to act surprised when they start brutally killing people?
 
Originally posted by acludem
Unfortunately it appears the occurances may be much more widespread. There are already two cases of homicide committed against prisoners, and the possibility exists that up to 20 prisoners may have been murdered. That's pretty serious. Those statistics came straight out of Donald Rumsfeld's mouth today at the hearing.

Don't try to minimize this. The damage it has caused our country and especially the great majority of our troops who are honest, decent and would never do this sort of thing is immeasurable. We cannot compare ourselves to terrorists. To say, oh well, whatever happened is okay because the terrorists did it too is both wrong and un-American.

acludem

Again, i never said that it was acceptable. I merely said that it was hypocritical of liberals to be up in arms of this but laid back when our people get killed. It is absolutely horrible what this does to our troops that are over there trying to rebuild iraq. But none of there stories are heard. None of the schools that are built, or the hospitals, or the resetablishing life for these people by the Thousands of other soldiers over there are heard. The crimes of a few are causing the whole to be seen as evil.
 

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