9/11: What really happened on that day?

[Divine Wind]

I believed it for a very long time and I busted on anyone that dared to say otherwise until I found out that the PATRIOT Act had been written in advance and the apparatus to spy on every fucking thing we did on line and with our cell-phones was already in place. THAT is what set off my bullshit detector. My son constantly bugged me about 9/11 and insisting that the official story was bullshit. When Snowden made his revelations, I decided that maybe I should take my son up on his offer to watch "Loose Change" and if I could debunk it, he would never pester me again...so I did. I was only 30 minutes or so into the documentary before I felt the need to puke. Building 7? I heard almost nothing about it and I chalked it up to collateral damage caused by the falling of Towers 1 &2...until I took the time to watch the footage of it where it came straight down. THAT was my "come to Jesus" moment and I knew that the whole thing was a lie and a set-up from the "git-go". The Pentagon hit was even worse and totally implausible. Everyone has to find their own way when it comes to the truth and I was a long time hold out so I can't be hard on others. I have spent hundreds of hours searching the pro and cons of that day wanting to believe that our country wasn't capable of doing this to their own people. Sadly, I have learned that the shadow government does indeed exist and they operate outside of the bounds of even their corporate constitution with no oversight and no worries about the consequences. I have made this my mission to find the truth and try and make sense of how we got this place and some of the places I have been are very dark...like the MK-Ultra program, Operation Paperclip where Nazis that were complicit in genocide and inhumane experiments on the defenseless were "sheep-dipped" and brought over to this country and given jobs and high rankings in the OSS that later became the CIA and in the field of rockets.

What I have found is that nothing that I believed my country was about was true. If you ever want to look at a different perspective, watch "JFK To 9/11...Everything Is A Rich Man's Trick". You can watch it for free on youtube. It's the best documentary ever done about how things really are.

Sorry, but not a conspiracy theorist for aforementioned reasons.

The duty of our military and intelligence personnel is not only to observe what is going on but to prepare for contingencies. Only a fucking moron, which means most of the oblivious voting population thought we'd never be hit by terrorists. This despite the fact they tried to blow up the WTC in 1993.** If the President asked JCS for for a plan to invade Canada or Iceland, I guarantee you they'd pull one out of the drawer within minutes. That's their fucking job; be prepared for all contingencies.

It's not a conspiracy theory to realize we have a plan to invade Canada. It's just a book about 2 inches thick.

 

[Dale Smith]

I believed it for a very long time and I busted on anyone that dared to say otherwise until I found out that the PATRIOT Act had been written in advance and the apparatus to spy on every fucking thing we did on line and with our cell-phones was already in place. THAT is what set off my bullshit detector. My son constantly bugged me about 9/11 and insisting that the official story was bullshit. When Snowden made his revelations, I decided that maybe I should take my son up on his offer to watch "Loose Change" and if I could debunk it, he would never pester me again...so I did. I was only 30 minutes or so into the documentary before I felt the need to puke. Building 7? I heard almost nothing about it and I chalked it up to collateral damage caused by the falling of Towers 1 &2...until I took the time to watch the footage of it where it came straight down. THAT was my "come to Jesus" moment and I knew that the whole thing was a lie and a set-up from the "git-go". The Pentagon hit was even worse and totally implausible. Everyone has to find their own way when it comes to the truth and I was a long time hold out so I can't be hard on others. I have spent hundreds of hours searching the pro and cons of that day wanting to believe that our country wasn't capable of doing this to their own people. Sadly, I have learned that the shadow government does indeed exist and they operate outside of the bounds of even their corporate constitution with no oversight and no worries about the consequences. I have made this my mission to find the truth and try and make sense of how we got this place and some of the places I have been are very dark...like the MK-Ultra program, Operation Paperclip where Nazis that were complicit in genocide and inhumane experiments on the defenseless were "sheep-dipped" and brought over to this country and given jobs and high rankings in the OSS that later became the CIA and in the field of rockets.

What I have found is that nothing that I believed my country was about was true. If you ever want to look at a different perspective, watch "JFK To 9/11...Everything Is A Rich Man's Trick". You can watch it for free on youtube. It's the best documentary ever done about how things really are.

Sorry, but not a conspiracy theorist for aforementioned reasons.

The duty of our military and intelligence personnel is not only to observe what is going on but to prepare for contingencies. Only a fucking moron, which means most of the oblivious voting population thought we'd never be hit by terrorists. This despite the fact they tried to blow up the WTC in 1993.** If the President asked JCS for for a plan to invade Canada or Iceland, I guarantee you they'd pull one out of the drawer within minutes. That's their fucking job; be prepared for all contingencies.

It's not a conspiracy theory to realize we have a plan to invade Canada. It's just a book about 2 inches thick.

The powers that be could never get away with the things that they do if people actually questioned the official narrative. They count on the undying belief of the people that they are always telling them thje truth and noting could be further from the truth. Gulf Of Tonkin incident? Never happened....but the sheeple only learned after the fact. JFK's murder? The Warren Commission had certain records that were not allowed to be seen for 50 years. If it had nothing to hide, why the secrecy? Of course most people already know that the CIA was complicit in his murder. 9/11/01 was a coordinated event by certain rogue elements of the alphabet agencies as was the OKC bombing. All it takes is some reading and some intellectual curiosity to put the pieces in place.

 

[Divine Wind]

The powers that be could never get away with the things that they do if people actually questioned the official narrative. They count on the undying belief of the people that they are always telling them thje truth and noting could be further from the truth. Gulf Of Tonkin incident? Never happened....but the sheeple only learned after the fact. JFK's murder? The Warren Commission had certain records that were not allowed to be seen for 50 years. If it had nothing to hide, why the secrecy? Of course most people already know that the CIA was complicit in his murder. 9/11/01 was a coordinated event by certain rogue elements of the alphabet agencies as was the OKC bombing. All it takes is some reading and some intellectual curiosity to put the pieces in place.

I have no problem with questioning the narrative. Isn't that what BLM is all about? Code Pink? OWS? I'm guessing you don't agree with them anymore than I do. However, you do take offense when I disagree with equally assholish questioning groups on the right.

 

[Dale Smith]

The powers that be could never get away with the things that they do if people actually questioned the official narrative. They count on the undying belief of the people that they are always telling them thje truth and noting could be further from the truth. Gulf Of Tonkin incident? Never happened....but the sheeple only learned after the fact. JFK's murder? The Warren Commission had certain records that were not allowed to be seen for 50 years. If it had nothing to hide, why the secrecy? Of course most people already know that the CIA was complicit in his murder. 9/11/01 was a coordinated event by certain rogue elements of the alphabet agencies as was the OKC bombing. All it takes is some reading and some intellectual curiosity to put the pieces in place.

I have no problem with questioning the narrative. Isn't that what BLM is all about? Code Pink? OWS? I'm guessing you don't agree with them anymore than I do. However, you do take offense when I disagree with equally assholish questioning groups on the right.

I am totally on board with blacks standing up against police brutality because police brutality PERIOD has totally gotten out of hand and they are becoming more totalitarian which is a direct reflection of the mandates of this corporate "federal" government. Where I disagree is having George Soros co-opting it in order to do the opposite of what the movement was intended to do.
Code Pink? They seemed to lose steam after the Democrats took control of the House and Senate and the illegal war waged on....doesn't seem to me that Code Pink really cared about the illegal invasion as much as they were used to give the dems the majority. If I could go back and have a "do over" knowing what I know now? I would have been a very outspoken opponent of the war because it was all bullshit based on a false flag. OWS? Their heart was in the right place as in they knew something was wrong but they didn't understand the true mechanisms that actually run this phony fiat currency system. Again, I wish I knew then what I know now because I would have made it my mission to be the spokesperson and advocate in Dallas when they were occupying the Dallas Federal Reserve Bank and I could have organized it with a mission statement of what it is that we are opposing. It was a lost opportunity and one that I seriously regret. I am not affiliated with the leftwing or the rightwing because the body in the middle controls them both. My hatred of the Fabian socialists that hijacked the dem party in 1980 draw the majority of my ire because they are doing the bidding of the very globalist elites that they claim to be so much against...or are they? The Fabian Socialist symbol is that of a wolf in sheep's clothing. The neocons that took over the repub party are just different sides of the same coin and work "hand in hand" with the left . Any fresh faced member regardless of which party he belongs to gets the "If you want to belong, you better get along and this is how things work" speech. If they don't fall in line, they are either compromised or coerced into complying and if that doesn't work, they are not allowed on any important committees. They are basically shunned and the opposing party pushes enough funds and a new candidate of their choice to fill his position. Like George Carlin said "It's a big club....and you ain't in it". I enjoy trading posts with you... which is rare for me because most that disagree with me are asswipes. You state your case very well and I respect that.

 

[Divine Wind]

....My hatred of the Fabian socialists that hijacked the dem party in 1980 draw the majority of my ire because they are doing the bidding of the very globalist elites that they claim to be so much against...or are they? The Fabian Socialist symbol is that of a wolf in sheep's clothing. The neocons that took over the repub party are just different sides of the same coin and work "hand in hand" with the left . Any fresh faced member regardless of which party he belongs to gets the "If you want to belong, you better get along and this is how things work" speech. If they don't fall in line, they are either compromised or coerced into complying and if that doesn't work, they are not allowed on any important committees. They are basically shunned and the opposing party pushes enough funds and a new candidate of their choice to fill his position. Like George Carlin said "It's a big club....and you ain't in it". I enjoy trading posts with you... which is rare for me because most that disagree with me are asswipes. You state your case very well and I respect that.

I never knew there was a name for it until you mentioned it, but that is correct; today's Democratic Party is Fabian Socialist organization.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

Hey idiot,why dont you try a world without Zionists you stupid fuck since those towers would still be there if not for THEM.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

Seriously, ANYONE that believes the official horseshit story of 9/11/01 have to be THE dumbest motherfuckers on this planet. It's people like those that buy this load of horseshit that enables them to continue. I am fucking EMBARRASSED to even admit that I was born in America when I am in world wide chat rooms because it's a source of shame. Seriously, you stupid fuckwads that worship at the feet of the biggest terrorist organization on the planet that is USA.INC disgust me in ways that I never thought possible. I don't HAVE to give every fucking minute detail showing the lies and fraud because I have two eyes and some common sense. Those of you that attack posters here that have their eyes open and thinking you are taking up for your beloved "gubermint" which is nothing but a private "for profit" entity are in for the rudest awakening of your life. What I wouldn't give to see the look on your stupid faces when the realization that you were played for an idiot slaps you upside the head.

yeah these shills they cant stand toe to toe in a debate as you found out when you first came here so when they know they cant refute the facts,they engage in name calling EVERYTIME and then go and whine about it when you call the names back acting like they are innocent victems just like their handlers instruct them to do.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

someone farted in here.^

that means i got you on ignore troll.

It's you and you're a pathetic, spineless liar. A sad mental case wearing aluminum foil on your head to ward off "the voices". Sad.

Do you REALLY believe the official story of 9/11/01? You always struck me as being intelligent.

Obviously you were wrong about him.I took him to school earlier that it was a joint CIA/MOSSAD operation and guess what? He knew he could not counter any of the videos i posted and just like they always do when they know they are cornered,all he could do was stoop to childish name calling.

I gave him the benefit of the doubt that he was not like these stupid fuck trolls like rightwinger and others but he is no different than them.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

It's you and you're a pathetic, spineless liar. A sad mental case wearing aluminum foil on your head to ward off "the voices". Sad.

Do you REALLY believe the official story of 9/11/01? You always struck me as being intelligent.

Tell us what REALLY happened and don't forget the part about the Jews

The Jews had nothing to do with it and I have never stated that it was. 9/11 was done for a litany of reasons most of which had to do with money and to stop insider trading investigations by the SEC plus the laundering of ten year securities set to expire that were obtained by illegal means and would not have passed the sniff test of SEC contractors like Cantor Fitzgerald.

Yes because AlQaida hated ten year securities

Al qaeda was a CIA term and Osama bin Laden aka "Tim Osman" was a CIA asset and was until the day he died on December 13th, 2001 of Marfan's Syndrome. We was visited by an array of intelligence agencies including the CIA at a military hospital in Dubai in July of 2001.

Notice how agent rightwinger when he cant counter pesky facts all he can do is post funnys?

 

[LA RAM FAN]

someone farted in here.^

that means i got you on ignore troll.

It's you and you're a pathetic, spineless liar. A sad mental case wearing aluminum foil on your head to ward off "the voices". Sad.

Do you REALLY believe the official story of 9/11/01? You always struck me as being intelligent.

Tell us what REALLY happened and don't forget the part about the Jews

The Jews had nothing to do with it and I have never stated that it was. 9/11 was done for a litany of reasons most of which had to do with money and to stop insider trading investigations by the SEC plus the laundering of ten year securities set to expire that were obtained by illegal means and would not have passed the sniff test of SEC contractors like Cantor Fitzgerald.

the juduism jewish people had nothing to do 9/11,THAT is correct,they are true jewish folks and good people who want to reform their corrupt government they have in Israel.The ZIONIST jewish though had a HUGE hand in 9/11.

I documented earlier in two videos how it was a joint CIA/MOSSAD OPERATION and what did this troll do? he refused to watch them and engaged in childish name calling in defeat knowing he was licked.because they THINK it wasnt an inside job,they deem themselves to automatically be right refusing to look at the evidence.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

I believed it for a very long time and I busted on anyone that dared to say otherwise until I found out that the PATRIOT Act had been written in advance and the apparatus to spy on every fucking thing we did on line and with our cell-phones was already in place. THAT is what set off my bullshit detector. My son constantly bugged me about 9/11 and insisting that the official story was bullshit. When Snowden made his revelations, I decided that maybe I should take my son up on his offer to watch "Loose Change" and if I could debunk it, he would never pester me again...so I did. I was only 30 minutes or so into the documentary before I felt the need to puke. Building 7? I heard almost nothing about it and I chalked it up to collateral damage caused by the falling of Towers 1 &2...until I took the time to watch the footage of it where it came straight down. THAT was my "come to Jesus" moment and I knew that the whole thing was a lie and a set-up from the "git-go". The Pentagon hit was even worse and totally implausible. Everyone has to find their own way when it comes to the truth and I was a long time hold out so I can't be hard on others. I have spent hundreds of hours searching the pro and cons of that day wanting to believe that our country wasn't capable of doing this to their own people. Sadly, I have learned that the shadow government does indeed exist and they operate outside of the bounds of even their corporate constitution with no oversight and no worries about the consequences. I have made this my mission to find the truth and try and make sense of how we got this place and some of the places I have been are very dark...like the MK-Ultra program, Operation Paperclip where Nazis that were complicit in genocide and inhumane experiments on the defenseless were "sheep-dipped" and brought over to this country and given jobs and high rankings in the OSS that later became the CIA and in the field of rockets.

What I have found is that nothing that I believed my country was about was true. If you ever want to look at a different perspective, watch "JFK To 9/11...Everything Is A Rich Man's Trick". You can watch it for free on youtube. It's the best documentary ever done about how things really are.

Sorry, but not a conspiracy theorist for aforementioned reasons.

The duty of our military and intelligence personnel is not only to observe what is going on but to prepare for contingencies. Only a fucking moron, which means most of the oblivious voting population thought we'd never be hit by terrorists. This despite the fact they tried to blow up the WTC in 1993.** If the President asked JCS for for a plan to invade Canada or Iceland, I guarantee you they'd pull one out of the drawer within minutes. That's their fucking job; be prepared for all contingencies.

It's not a conspiracy theory to realize we have a plan to invade Canada. It's just a book about 2 inches thick.

The powers that be could never get away with the things that they do if people actually questioned the official narrative. They count on the undying belief of the people that they are always telling them thje truth and noting could be further from the truth. Gulf Of Tonkin incident? Never happened....but the sheeple only learned after the fact. JFK's murder? The Warren Commission had certain records that were not allowed to be seen for 50 years. If it had nothing to hide, why the secrecy? Of course most people already know that the CIA was complicit in his murder. 9/11/01 was a coordinated event by certain rogue elements of the alphabet agencies as was the OKC bombing. All it takes is some reading and some intellectual curiosity to put the pieces in place.

you took the troll to school and gave him a MAJOR ass beating same as i did when I showed those two video that it was a joint CIA/MOSSAD operation that he refused to watch.

 

[Faun]

By that same token, imagine a world without Bush ever being president.

 

[Divine Wind]

you took the troll to school and gave him a MAJOR ass beating same as i did when I showed those two video that it was a joint CIA/MOSSAD operation that he refused to watch.

Your violent fantasies are amusing. Sad, but amusing. Although I've seen members of forums die of disease, be killed by accident and even arrested (for murder), I've yet to see one commit suicide. There's always a first time, amirite?

 

[LA RAM FAN]

someone farted in here.^

 

[rightwinger]

Do you REALLY believe the official story of 9/11/01? You always struck me as being intelligent.

Tell us what REALLY happened and don't forget the part about the Jews

The Jews had nothing to do with it and I have never stated that it was. 9/11 was done for a litany of reasons most of which had to do with money and to stop insider trading investigations by the SEC plus the laundering of ten year securities set to expire that were obtained by illegal means and would not have passed the sniff test of SEC contractors like Cantor Fitzgerald.

Yes because AlQaida hated ten year securities

Al qaeda was a CIA term and Osama bin Laden aka "Tim Osman" was a CIA asset and was until the day he died on December 13th, 2001 of Marfan's Syndrome. We was visited by an array of intelligence agencies including the CIA at a military hospital in Dubai in July of 2001.

Notice how agent rightwinger when he cant counter pesky facts all he can do is post funnys?

Irony, thy name is 9/11

 

[LA RAM FAN]

Now you are obfuscating....just like all truthers

It was viewed by millions that people started jumping minutes before the towers were controlled demoed. How could they have known the controlled demo would take place if they weren't tipped off?

You haven't yet established that they weren't simply jumping out because they were being burned alive inside -.-

Burned alive?

How could the moment they were being burned alive occur at the same time Bush was control demoing the building?

Sigh -.- Come on rightwinger, let's stop with this skit of a discussion and get to a real one. Do you believe the official story wholeheartedly?

Of course not...it was what I like to call an "inside job"

Sigh, never mind, carry on with your skit, I'll just opt out of it.

so does that mean you have FINALLY wised up at least about USMB's resident troll rightwinger that he is the biggest troll of them all here the fact he is incapable of EVER saying-you were right,I was wrong. He would commit hari kari FIRST before he would ever admit that he was proven wrong on ANYTHING and I have proof of that.

Two years ago he was saying the rams would never come back to LA,well even YOU I am sure is aware that they are back in LA right? well guess what? he is STILL going around trolling saying they are playing in st louis this year.I am not kidding,im serious.


I can show you proof if you want? see that just proves what i was asking you earlier that if people like candyass STILL to this day think oswald killed JFK,WHY do you think they will listen to you on 9/11? yet you STILL were foolish enough to keep feeding the trolls saying that you would still talk to candy even though he believes oswald shot JFK. which of course makes no sense to do.

they are ALL like rightwinger,why would you waste your time on someone like rightwinger and these others when they are the same as rightwinger,cant admit when they are proven wrong and are going around STILL saying the rams are not playing in LA this year? if THAT is not being a troll,then what is?

these other defenders of the official version of 9/11 are no different than rightwinger yet you STILL waste your time on them.

 

[phoenyx]

You haven't yet established that they weren't simply jumping out because they were being burned alive inside -.-

Burned alive?

How could the moment they were being burned alive occur at the same time Bush was control demoing the building?

Sigh -.- Come on rightwinger, let's stop with this skit of a discussion and get to a real one. Do you believe the official story wholeheartedly?

Of course not...it was what I like to call an "inside job"

Sigh, never mind, carry on with your skit, I'll just opt out of it.

so does that mean you have FINALLY wised up at least about USMB's resident troll rightwinger that he is the biggest troll of them all here the fact he is incapable of EVER saying-you were right,I was wrong. He would commit hari kari FIRST before he would ever admit that he was proven wrong on ANYTHING and I have proof of that.

Two years ago he was saying the rams would never come back to LA,well even YOU I am sure is aware that they are back in LA right? well guess what? he is STILL going around trolling saying they are playing in st louis this year.I am not kidding,im serious.


I can show you proof if you want? see that just proves what i was asking you earlier that if people like candyass STILL to this day think oswald killed JFK,WHY do you think they will listen to you on 9/11? yet you STILL were foolish enough to keep feeding the trolls saying that you would still talk to candy even though he believes oswald shot JFK. which of course makes no sense to do.

they are ALL like rightwinger,why would you waste your time on someone like rightwinger and these others when they are the same as rightwinger,cant admit when they are proven wrong and are going around STILL saying the rams are not playing in LA this year? if THAT is not being a troll,then what is?

these other defenders of the official version of 9/11 are no different than rightwinger yet you STILL waste your time on them.

I've found it's more interesting to discuss other things for the time being.

 

[phoenyx]

There have been threads in this forum that address the general issue of what happened on 9/11. That being said, I have found that a lot of them are not neutral in their title- their titles imply that they are either for or against an official narrative. I started a thread with the same title as this one in another forum and after over 1000 posts, I think it's been fairly successful. Not sure if it'll work out here, but I thought I'd give it a go. I'll start by responding to someone who asked me to outline my view of what happened on 9/11 and who was behind it...

I've heard many theories as to what happened at the World Trade Center. As to the general outline of what happened on 9/11, I think I'll start with the general outline of both the official narrative of events, as well as the generally accepted outline of what those who disagree with it is, as outlined in a documentary film called Zeitgeist...

***
19 hijackers, directed by Osama Bin Laden, took over 4 commercial jets
with box cutters and, while evading the Air Defense System (NORAD), hit
75% of their targets. In turn, World Trade Towers 1, 2 & 7 collapsed due
to structural failure through fire in a "pancake" fashion, while the
plane that hit the Pentagon vaporized upon impact, as did the plane
that crashed in Shanksville. The 911 Commission found that there were
no warnings for this act of terrorism, while multiple government
failures prevented adequate defense.
***

I would like to ask anyone who sides with the official narrative if they essentially agree with this narrative.

As to what I believe, this is exemplified by the concluding statement of Zeitgeist in its 9/11 section:
***
Criminal Elements within the US government staged a "false flag" rerror
attack on its own citizens, in order to manipulate public perception
into supporting its agenda.

They have been doing these for years.

9/11 was an Inside Job.
***

For anyone considering responding to this thread for the first time, I ask that you consider briefly pointing out what you think happened on 9/11; it can be as simple as stating that you believe in one of the 2 summaries outlined above, or it can be more detailed. At that point, I will endeavour to comment on your entry, and explain why I agree or disagree with your point of view.

ADIZ were designed to track planes coming into the US from outside the US. Not to track commercial airliners within the US.

For those in the audience who don't know what ADIZ means:
**The Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ) is an area surrounding much of North America – namely airspace surrounding the United States andCanada – in which the ready identification, location, and control of civil aircraft over land or water is required in the interest of national security.[1] This ADIZ is jointly administered by the civilian air traffic control authorities and the militaries of both nations, under the auspices of the North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD). The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) handles the requests of international aircraft and Transport Canada handles Canadian requests. Any aircraft flying in these zones without authorization may be identified as a threat and treated as an enemy aircraft, potentially leading to interception by fighter aircraft.

An aircraft entering an ADIZ is required to radio its planned course, destination, and any additional details about its trip through the ADIZ to a higher authority, typically an air traffic controller. The aircraft must also be equipped with a radar transponder.**

Source: Air Defense Identification Zone (North America) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For domestic air travel transponders are used. NORAD didn't know about the hijacking of any of the planes until someone at a civilian air traffic control tower called and told them.

Which in the case of 2 of the planes was after the planes had already impacted. Making your 'evading ADIZ' claims disingenuous at best. And startlingly misinformed at worst.

I think you're overlooking something here. Namely the war games that were going on during 9/11:
**
WAR GAMES ON SEPTEMBER 11TH
On the very morning of 9/11/01, five war games and terror drills were being conducted by several U.S. defense agencies, including one "live fly" exercise using REAL planes. Then-Acting Head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Air Force General Richard B. Myers, admitted to 4 of the war games in congressional testimony -- see transcript here or video here (6 minutes and 12 seconds into the video).
Norad had run drills for several years of planes being used as weapons against the World Trade Center and other U.S. high-profile buildings, and "numerous types of civilian and military aircraft were used as mock hijacked aircraft". In other words, drills using REAL AIRCRAFT simulating terrorist attacks crashing jets into buildings, including the twin towers, were run. See also official military website showing 2000 military drill, using miniatures, involving a plane crashing into the Pentagon.
Indeed, a former Los Angeles police department investigator, whose newsletter is read by 45 members of congress, both the house and senate intelligence committees, and professors at more than 40 universities around the world, claims that he obtained an on-the-record confirmation from NORAD that ON 9/11, NORAD and the Joint Chiefs of Staff were conducting a joint, live-fly, hijack exercise which involved government-operated aircraft POSING AS HIJACKED AIRLINERS.
On September 11th, the government also happened to be running a simulation of a plane crashing into a building.
In addition, a December 9, 2001 Toronto Star article (pay-per-view; reprinted here), stated that "Operation Northern Vigilance is called off. Any simulated information, what's known as an 'inject,' is purged from the screens". This indicates that there were false radar blips inserted onto air traffic controllers' screens as part of the war game exercises.
Moreover, there are indications that some of the major war games previously scheduled for October 2001 were MOVED UP to September 11th by persons unknown.
Interestingly, Vice President Cheney was apparently in charge of ALL of the war games and coordinated the government's "response" to the attacks. See this Department of State announcement; this CNN article; and this previously-cited essay.
And while the government has consistently stated that it did not know where the aircraft were before they struck, this short video clip of the Secretary of Transportation's testimony before the 9/11 Commission shows that Cheney monitored flight 77 for many miles as it approached the Pentagon. How could one of the most heavily-defended buildings in the world have been successfully attacked, when the Vice President of the United States, in charge of counter-terrorism on 9/11, watched it approach from many miles away?
Moreover, a former air traffic controller, who knows the flight corridor which the two planes which hit the Twin Towers flew "like the back of my hand" and who handled two actual hijackings says that that planes can be tracked on radar even when their transponders are turned off, and that Donald Rumsfeld and the Pentagon tracked three of the four flights from the point of their hijacking to hitting their targets (also, listen to this interview).
Additionally, this diagram shows that the hijacked planes flew over numerous military bases on 9/11 before crashing. See also this essay regarding the stand down of the military; and see this war game proposal created before 9/11 revolving around Bin Laden and including "live-fly exercises" involving real planes, later confirmed by this official Department of Defense website.
Which scenario is more likely from a strictly logistical perspective:
(1) An outsider sitting in a cave defeating the air defense system of the sole military superpower; or
(2) Someone like Cheney -- who on 9/11 apparently had full control over all defense, war game and counter-terrorism powers -- rigging and gaming the system?
Remember that for the attacks to have succeeded, it was necessary that actions be taken in the middle of the war games and the actual attacks which would thwart the normal military response. For example, Cheney watched flight 77 approach the Pentagon from many miles out, but instructed the military to do nothing (as shown in the testimony of the Secretary of Transportation, linked above). Could Bin Laden have done that?
Fighter jets were also sent far off-course over the Atlantic Ocean in the middle of the attacks (testimony of Senator Mark Dayton), so as to neutralize their ability to intercept the hijacked airliners. Could Osama Bin Laden and his sent-from-the-cave band of followers have exercised this degree of control over the military? Obviously not.
And air traffic controllers claim they were still tracking what they thought were hijacked planes long after all 4 of the real planes had crashed. This implies that false radar blips remained on their screens after all 4 planes went down, long after the military claims they purged the phantom war-game-related radar signals. Could Bin Laden have interfered with the full purging of false radar blips inserted as part of the war games? In other words, could Bin Laden have overridden the purging process so that some false blips remained and confused air traffic controllers? The answer is clear.
Therefore, it is statistically much more likely that Cheney and/or other high-level U.S. government and military officials pulled the 9/11 trigger than that Bin Laden did it. At the very least, they took affirmative steps to guarantee that the hijackers' attacks succeeded.
As discussed previously, a former air force colonel and director of the Star Wars program stated "If our government had merely done nothing, and allowed normal procedures to happen on that morning of 9/11, the twin towers would still be standing, and thousands of dead Americans would still be alive. [T]hat is treason" **

Source: 911 Proof

And for those who want to know how ADIZ work in this country, its illustrated simply by this photo:

ADIZ are pointed outward, surrounding the US. They were not used for tracking civilian aircraft within the US until AFTER the 911.

The first ADIZ was established by the United States on December 27, 1950, shortly after President Truman had proclaimed a national emergency during the Korean War. [4] Following the September 11 attacks in 2001, when civilian commercial aircraft were utilized for mass destruction, ADIZ became prominent as a tool by which to monitor and control foreign aircraft entering a given national airspace.

Air Defense Identification Zone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Instead, the monitoring of US airspace on 911 was delegated to the Air Route Traffic Control Centers. Which is a civilian network that wasn't directly connected to NORAD or the ADIZ on 911.

All of which phoenyx knows. But *really* hopes you don't. He wants you to believe that ADIZ and ARTCC are the same thing, despite knowing full well that they weren't.

Reminds me of some lines from V for Vendetta:
"A man as smart as you
has probably considered this.
A man as smart as you
probably has a plan."

Fact of the matter is, I didn't even know what ADIZ stood for until I googled it . But go on, make me out to be some villain that knows it all, it's entertaining if nothing else . I also see that you didn't address the points I made in the post you're responding to at all, namely the war games going on on 9/11.

And his 'evading the ADIZ' claims were a load of steaming horseshit.

Actually, I wrote:
"19 hijackers, directed by Osama Bin Laden, took over 4 commercial jets
with box cutters and, while evading the Air Defense System (NORAD), hit
75% of their targets."

No mention of ADIZ; like I said, I didn't even know what that meant, until you brought it up. Furthermore, the quote above wasn't actually my own words, they were part of the summary given in a documentary film named Zeitgeist. Based on what I know now, I definitely think that the ARTCC/ATC should have been mentioned. For those in the audience who haven't heard of the ARTCC before (like me, before I googled it), ARTCC stands for Air Route Traffic Control Center. NASA goes into more detail:
**
Center or Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC)
The first Air Traffic Control Center originated at Newark Airport, Newark, New Jersey, as a privately operatedventure formed by cooperative airline companies in October 1935. On July 8, 1936 the Department of Commerce's Civil Aeronautical Administration assumed operation of the air traffic responsibilities.

ARTCCs, usually referred to as "Centers," are established primarily to provide Air Traffic Service to aircraft operating on IFR flight plans within the controlled airspace, and principally during the en route phase of flight. There are 21 Air Route Traffic Control Centers (ARTCC)in the United States. Any aircraft operating under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) within the confines of an ARTCC's airspace is controlled by air traffic controllers at the Center. This includes all sorts of different types of aircraft: privately owned single engine aircraft, commuter airlines, military jets and commercial airlines.

The Federal Aviation Administration has made a long-term investment of tax dollars by providing the finest air traffic control service in the world. The largest component of the national airspace system is the Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC). Each ARTCC covers thousands of square miles encompassing all or part of several states. ARTCCs are built to ensure safe and expeditious air travel. All Centers operate 7 days a week, 24 hours a day and employ a combination of several hundred Air Traffic Control Specialists, Electronic Technicians, Computer System Specialists, Environmental Support Specialists, and administrative staff.**

Source: Air Traffic Management | Nasa

Speaking of the ARTCC, they were dealing with known hijackings. Up until July 31, 1997, commanders in the field could have done anything, even shoot down planes, without the need to get approval from the Secretary of Defense (Donald Rumsfeld at the time of 9/11). This order was modified slightly in June 2001, so that commanders in the field could now intercept, but they still couldn't shoot down a plane without Rumsfeld's permission. There was more blocking the U.S.'s air defense on 9/11, however:
**If it is true that the standing orders would have required approval by the Secretary of Defense for intercepts on 9/11/01, then, in theory, a defacto stand-down could have been implemented by the secretary simply failing to act during the crisis. However, it is doubtful that insiders planning the attack would have relied on the orders alone to assure that there was no effective military response to the attack. It was likely one of a number of "fixes" that included multiple war games planned on the day of the attack. Thus, even if commanders violated standing orders and ordered intercepts of the commandeered jetliners, they would face depleted interceptor resources and corrupted flight data.**

Source: 9-11 Review: The 'Stand-Down Order'

Its the ADIZ that NORAD monitors, which as you knew, surround the US like a donut. We know you know this as the very source you drew your quotes from included diagrams of ADIZ....which you intentionally and rather conspicuously omitted.

I omitted it because I didn't want to quote the entire page. Looking back, I also see that you'd actually posted it in a previous post as well.

This is the territory that NORAD monitors directly. A place none of the planes on 911 went and you *know* they never went.

As mentioned previously, I hadn't even heard of ADIZ before you brought it up. Regardless of whether NORAD was directly monitoring the allegedly hijacked planes, though, the issue of the War Games happening on 9/11 is extremely pertinent.

Speaking of the ARTCC, they were dealing with known hijackings. Up until July 31, 1997, commanders in the field could have done anything, even shoot down planes, without the need to get approval from the Secretary of Defense (Donald Rumsfeld at the time of 9/11).

You're claiming that until 1997, that ARTCC 'commanders' could have ordered planes be shot down b the US military?

Prove it.

I doubt I can "prove it" to you if you're not willing to do atleast a bit of legwork yourself, but I will provide you with my source material:
**
The shocking failure of the air defense system to protect New York City and the capital would seem to require either an incredible series of failures or an order to stop intercepts -- a stand-down order. Yet apparently there have been no cases of military officials disciplined for gross negligence surrounding 9/11/01, nor have there been publicized reports of commanders admitting to having received stand-down orders.

If the stand-down order were disguised as a procedural change, and enacted well in advance, it might be hidden in plain sight.

CJCSI 3610.01, dated July 31, 1997, required that all requests for assistance in hijackings be approved by the Secretary of Defense. An update to that order, CJCSI 3610.01, dated June 1, 2001, had an exception for emergencies that would seem to give commanders in the field autonomy in ordering intercepts. However, that exception did not cover requests for "potentially lethal assistance", the kind required to respond to the attack:

(DODD 2025.15, Feb. 18, 1997) 4.4 The Secretary of Defense retains approval authority for support to civil authorities involving: use of Commander in Chief (CINC)-assigned forces (personnel units, and equipment) when required under paragraph 4.5, below; DoD support that will result in a planned event with the potential for confrontation with specifically identified individuals and/or groups or will result in the use of lethal force. 1
Hence, this order may have been the long-sought stand-down order.

If it is true that the standing orders would have required approval by the Secretary of Defense for intercepts on 9/11/01, then, in theory, a defacto stand-down could have been implemented by the secretary simply failing to act during the crisis. However, it is doubtful that insiders planning the attack would have relied on the orders alone to assure that there was no effective military response to the attack. It was likely one of a number of "fixes" that included multiple war games planned on the day of the attack. Thus, even if commanders violated standing orders and ordered intercepts of the commandeered jetliners, they would face depleted interceptor resources and corrupted flight data.**

Source: 9-11 Review: The 'Stand-Down Order'

Your word is already pretty much garbage. Especially since you *just* changed your time line. As just last page, you insisted that it was 2001, not 1997.

I commend you that you realized this. You are right, I -did- change my timeline, and if you knew me, you'd know I don't do that often. People who research 9/11 can and do make mistakes. I originally found a source that believed that the 2001 order was what changed things sufficiently to make the 'stand down' order. Only later did I find the above source, which made it clear that it was actually the 1997 order that did the change that mattered.

 

[phoenyx]

You may be right on that one; the whole truth concerning 9/11 is quite a lot of information. But I certainly believe that many (including myself) can learn a lot more then we currently know of the event.

So you don't find Howard Hunt's confession to be credible, I take it? As to your notion that Saddam Hussein definitely had WMDs, I know that this has been claimed, but I haven't seen any real evidence to back it up.

No, Hunt is grandstanding.

How are you so sure? It seems his primary purpose was to tell his children, not to tell the media. It was his children who told the media.

If you haven't seen any evidence that Saddam had WMDs then you haven't been looking. Saddam Hussein killed hundreds of thousands of Kurds with his WMDs, that is an easily proven fact. But this is off the point.

Yeah, it's off the point, but we could always make a new thread if it really got going. I'm not saying that Saddam Hussein didn't have chemical weapons at the time of the first gulf war. What I'd like to see is evidence that they still had it before Bush Jr. invaded.

Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

True. Ofcourse, that logic can be used to argue for the existence of invisible unicorns and elves on Mars. You're free to do it, but don't expect me to go along for the ride .

He had WMDs, he used them, there's no reason to believe that he used them all and what did we give him? 30-40 days advance notice before we attacked?

The strongest evidence that he had no chemical weapons left is in the fact that none were ever found after Bush Jr.'s invasion. Like you said, absence of proof and even absence of evidence is not proof of its lack, but that doesn't mean I'm going to believe in invisible unicorns just because no one has proven they don't exist.

Piss poor analogy. In order for your comparison to work, unicorns would have to be a fact. The WMDs were a fact.

Saddam has some chemical weapons supplied to him by the U.S. back during the Iran Iraq war. There's no evidence he had anything left after the first Gulf war, much less by 2003.

 

[phoenyx]

Do you have any evidence to back up your claim?

I am a conspiracy theorist, I do not need evidence

There are 2 types of conspiracy theorists. Those who don't care about the evidence (many official conspiracy theorists belong in this category) and those who do. You are clearly in the former category. Good luck with that.

You asked us to provide our theories of what REALLY happened and I did.

Come on rightwinger, do you honestly believe anyone believes you actually believe these "theories" you've put out? Furthermore, a good theory has to be backed up by evidence. Otherwise, it's just quackery.

I've seen rightwinger posting for some time and can tell he's serious as shit.

The kind of seriousness you flush down the toilet, yeah.