7 Dec. 1941

[editec]

Quote:
Originally Posted by editec
That's news to me. How far up the Chain of command did their warning get?

And if you had would you have found the Japanese fleet and carriers which were 275 miles North of Pearl?

Not bloody likely, you wouldn't have.

And certainly not in time to do all that much if you had either.

275 miles off the coast of Hawaii is what I read. That's according to the Japanese Imperial Navy's reports.

First of all, they'd have had to know what direction to fly in. Finding a fleet in that vast ocean when you don't know in which direction (exactly) to go isn't easy, your know?

There was no radar that would pinpoint that fleet on 12/07/41

That makes no sense brother. The Ward SANK and minisub .. and that act ALONE hould have alarmed the entire base. NO one should have been caught napping. And how would they know how far the fleet was from shore if they didn't go look? Pearl didn't just have ships, it had planes .. lots of them.

So no one should have been caught napping. Do you realize how large the conspiracy has to be to make your conclusion that the subs should have put the based on high alert would take?
Quote:
Churchill wasn't above rewriting history OR getting it wrong, either, BAC.

He often did exactly that to make himself appear less culpable for his own mistakes, ya know. He didn't for example, assume much responsibility for the disaster at Galipoli.

Any idea of the firestorm that would have caused had he not spoken with fact? He got a Nobel Prize for what he said. Irrespective of what anyone thinks of the Nobel Prize, had it been unsubstantiated accounts that pianted the American President as knowingly allowed the death and destruction of that day to occur unchallenged .. do you really believe it would have not set off a firestorm that would have discredited the Nobel Prize into oblivion?

Churchill got a Nobel for the body of his work over his lifetime. If, as you say, Winston was in on the plot, then one can certainly understand why he didn't say anything about it.

Only you say he admitted that he was in on that plot.
If you were in a conspiracy that caused the deaths of thousands, would YOU tell people about it?

None of this is really making much sense to me, BAC.

FDR and Churchill changed the entire fucking world. I'm not understanding how you give such callous drift to his words on anything to do with World War II.

What are you talking about? That I note that Churchill gave himself good press in the histories that he wrote which included himself?

Oh, believe me I can fault him for that fairly easily. The man put his pants on one leg at a time, and like anyone else who was in power for a long time, he made his share of catastriopic mistakes.

Quote:
The incompetence defence does stretch our credibility muscle, I agree.

But history is replete with such military incompetence. Every "surprise attack" in history is pretty much the result of military incompetence.

Because it is the duty to the military NOT to be surprised, and it is the DUTY of the enemy to surprise the enemy.

Sometimes the surprise works out, sometimes not.

I hate to go here .. but isn't this the same shit said about 9/11? Our multi-trillion dollar military apparatus is suddemly so incompetent than 15 cave men could overcome it with butter knives.

9/11 .. so easy a caveman could do it.

Yes, highly complex systems do fail. You doubt that?

Is there any question of why the invasion of Iraq was so easy to sell to the American public?

irrelevant

Is there any question why George Bush served two terms?

irrelevant

You can tell Americans ANY damn thing .. and we'll swallow it.

irrelevant

We are a nation of swallowers.

One nation of swallowers a spring does not make.


Quote:
I surely don't think that Churchill was in on a plot to allow the attack on Pearl Harbor, do you?
Unknown. Churchill and FDR often disagreed .. but FDR had the upper hand. Churchill didn't want to bend to FDR's demand that he give up the British Isles, or a lot of what FDR was demanding in the Lend-Lease Agreement .. but like I said, FDR had the upper hand and he knew it.

That being said, they both knew Japan was the road to war.


Quote:
And if there was a plot among hundreds of Americans starting with FDR, do you think FDR would have dragged Winston into it?

Again, unknown. Churchill was desperate .. and it doesn't take a plot known to hundreds of Americans. In a chain of command the left hand doesn't always know what the right hand is doing, nor understand or contimplate what orders they've recieved actually accomplish.

The how can you say Churchill KNEW that FDR allowed Pearl Harbor to happen?


Quote:
Why would he do that? Bring Churchill in on the plot, I mean.

That makes no sense.

Chuchill can intuit that FDR knew, I suppose, but KNOW?

No way.

I would imagine that Churchill knew as much about FDR's intentions and thoughts on the war than Eleanor or any American politician.

Bottom line brother .. there is no way to discredit nor discount Churchill on the events of WWII.

But you just did. On one post you used Churchill as you evidence to prove that FDR allowed Pearl to happen, now you're saying you cannot know.

Make up your mind, BAC. He either knew or he didn't.
Take a moment and think about that.

###########

BAC, it's too hard to have these highly complex issues discussed in this format because keeping track of quotes and responses is very messy.

Can we stick to ONE issue at a time?

 

[BlackAsCoal]

The one unable to accept reality is you. Every thing is a big fat conspiracy. Your brain is wired wrong. You may present a cooler head then say Eots but it is just as twisted.

I'm betting you are not a psychologist.

Do you have anything else other than your completely unqualified psychological evaluations.

I've read of your own mental problems, and while I'm not going to denigrate you for having them, you should seriously consider growing up and giving up trying to force your issues on others.

I've done very well for myself with this "wired brain."

 

[BlackAsCoal]

Quote:
Originally Posted by editec
That's news to me. How far up the Chain of command did their warning get?

And if you had would you have found the Japanese fleet and carriers which were 275 miles North of Pearl?

Not bloody likely, you wouldn't have.

And certainly not in time to do all that much if you had either.

275 miles off the coast of Hawaii is what I read. That's according to the Japanese Imperial Navy's reports.

First of all, they'd have had to know what direction to fly in. Finding a fleet in that vast ocean when you don't know in which direction (exactly) to go isn't easy, your know?

There was no radar that would pinpoint that fleet on 12/07/41



So no one should have been caught napping. Do you realize how large the conspiracy has to be to make your conclusion that the subs should have put the based on high alert would take?
Quote:
Churchill wasn't above rewriting history OR getting it wrong, either, BAC.

He often did exactly that to make himself appear less culpable for his own mistakes, ya know. He didn't for example, assume much responsibility for the disaster at Galipoli.


Churchill got a Nobel for the body of his work over his lifetime. If, as you say, Winston was in on the plot, then one can certainly understand why he didn't say anything about it.

Only you say he admitted that he was in on that plot.
If you were in a conspiracy that caused the deaths of thousands, would YOU tell people about it?

None of this is really making much sense to me, BAC.



What are you talking about? That I note that Churchill gave himself good press in the histories that he wrote which included himself?

Oh, believe me I can fault him for that fairly easily. The man put his pants on one leg at a time, and like anyone else who was in power for a long time, he made his share of catastriopic mistakes.

Quote:
The incompetence defence does stretch our credibility muscle, I agree.

But history is replete with such military incompetence. Every "surprise attack" in history is pretty much the result of military incompetence.

Because it is the duty to the military NOT to be surprised, and it is the DUTY of the enemy to surprise the enemy.

Sometimes the surprise works out, sometimes not.


Yes, highly complex systems do fail. You doubt that?



irrelevant



irrelevant



irrelevant



One nation of swallowers a spring does not make.


Quote:
I surely don't think that Churchill was in on a plot to allow the attack on Pearl Harbor, do you?
Unknown. Churchill and FDR often disagreed .. but FDR had the upper hand. Churchill didn't want to bend to FDR's demand that he give up the British Isles, or a lot of what FDR was demanding in the Lend-Lease Agreement .. but like I said, FDR had the upper hand and he knew it.

That being said, they both knew Japan was the road to war.


Quote:
And if there was a plot among hundreds of Americans starting with FDR, do you think FDR would have dragged Winston into it?


The how can you say Churchill KNEW that FDR allowed Pearl Harbor to happen?


Quote:
Why would he do that? Bring Churchill in on the plot, I mean.

That makes no sense.

Chuchill can intuit that FDR knew, I suppose, but KNOW?

No way.


But you just did. On one post you used Churchill as you evidence to prove that FDR allowed Pearl to happen, now you're saying you cannot know.

Make up your mind, BAC. He either knew or he didn't.
Take a moment and think about that.

###########

BAC, it's too hard to have these highly complex issues discussed in this format because keeping track of quotes and responses is very messy.

Can we stick to ONE issue at a time?

My head is getting dizzy.

Let me conclude by saying that after reading what Miles had to say, you still maintain FDR did not know and the attack was a surprise .. I can't help you brother.

The evidence is everywhere, but you cannot force others to believe what they will not. Those who refuse to believe would still do so even if FDR said he knew himself.

My point in all of this was to present what I believe based on the evidence, not to make anyone believe what they won't.

 

[BaronVonBigmeat]

Consider the conservatives’ account of Roosevelt’s advance warning of the Japanese attack in late 1941. When George Morgenstern wrote Pearl Harbor: The Story of a Secret War, only right-wing Devin-Adair would publish it (1947). The book was ridiculed by academic historians as being a pack of unsubstantiated opinions written by a mere journalist – and a Chicago Tribune journalist at that. When the premier liberal historian, Charles A. Beard, said much the same thing the next year in President Roosevelt and the Coming of the War (Yale University Press), he was dismissed by his colleagues as senile, and he permanently lost his reputation. When the premier American diplomatic historian, Charles C. Tansill, said it again in 1952 in his Back Door to War (Regnery), he, too, was shoved down the liberals’ memory hole.

To say that there is no evidence, that only paranoid conspiracy theorists on fringe websites support Day of Deceit's premise, that this is on par with 9/11 conspiracy theories, is being rather dishonest.

 

[MisterBeale]

IN REMEMBRANCE

 

[Claudette]

A date that will live in infamy.

 

[Marion Morrison]

Yep, it's Pearl Harbor day.

 

[Pilot1]

I will be going to my gun club to honor them and shoot my 1911's, and WWII USGI M1 Carbine.

The memory of this is fading as the WWII generation dies. "Pearl Harbor Day" is leaving our vernacular.

 

[Claudette]

Yup. Loads of WWII vets are already gone

Hell my Mom, Dad, Aunts and Uncles were all WWII vets and are gone.

Most young kids today don't even know what Pearl Harbor was or what happened there.

 

[there4eyeM]

Please let us know what you find...

Beyond the fact that we knew the Japaneses were about to attack Pearl Harbor and we let it happen so we could enter the war, I'd like to know what drives such insanity.

There was plenty of insanity to go around. The Japanese had delusions of grandeur, to say the least, if not an outright suicidal tendency to attack the U.S. Given their proclivities, war was inevitable.
That Pearl Harbor was a target can only be regarded as a logical certainty. Strategic thinking of the epoch, however, was not original enough to come up with a better plan than to keep a fleet at that point of the Pacific.
At the same time, craziness was in full rage all over the globe, and had been for a long time. It is difficult to imagine how the Americans could have escaped it.

 

[Claudette]

Please let us know what you find...

Beyond the fact that we knew the Japaneses were about to attack Pearl Harbor and we let it happen so we could enter the war, I'd like to know what drives such insanity.

There was plenty of insanity to go around. The Japanese had delusions of grandeur, to say the least, if not an outright suicidal tendency to attack the U.S. Given their proclivities, war was inevitable.
That Pearl Harbor was a target can only be regarded as a logical certainty. Strategic thinking of the epoch, however, was not original enough to come up with a better plan than to keep a fleet at that point of the Pacific.
At the same time, craziness was in full rage all over the globe, and had been for a long time. It is difficult to imagine how the Americans could have escaped it.

Yup and what did that Japanese Admiral say.

"We have awakened a sleeping giant."

Boy was he right.

 

[there4eyeM]

Please let us know what you find...

Beyond the fact that we knew the Japaneses were about to attack Pearl Harbor and we let it happen so we could enter the war, I'd like to know what drives such insanity.

There was plenty of insanity to go around. The Japanese had delusions of grandeur, to say the least, if not an outright suicidal tendency to attack the U.S. Given their proclivities, war was inevitable.
That Pearl Harbor was a target can only be regarded as a logical certainty. Strategic thinking of the epoch, however, was not original enough to come up with a better plan than to keep a fleet at that point of the Pacific.
At the same time, craziness was in full rage all over the globe, and had been for a long time. It is difficult to imagine how the Americans could have escaped it.

Yup and what did that Japanese Admiral say.

"We have awakened a sleeping giant."

Boy was he right.

That Admiral, Yamamoto, also told his military peers that if their war lasted more than six months against the U.S., it would already be lost.

 

[blastoff]

Yes, the greatest generation’s numbers are dwindling fast as we head to 2019.

If you want to have a really moving experience check out if any Honor Flights for WW II vets are being flown from anywhere near you and be on hand that night when they return. Been to two at Midway in Chicago in support of two friends and their dads who’d made the trip that day. Too much detail to describe but IMO if you attend one you’ll want to do another for sure.

 

[Godboy]

I will be taking my son to a birthday party at the house he will be living at in January.

My uncle was at Pearl Harbor. He says they knew it was gonna happen. They had them open the hatches on all the ships the night before so that the ships would sink easily and be easier to recover and use in the war. They never did that before or since, at least according to him.

Thankfully my uncle survived and is still around today, with his 5th wife (he divorced one and buried 3) and in his 90's.

Your uncle is a conspiracy theorist. That never happened.

 

[Godboy]

Are you suggesting that's why we let it happen?

I don't think so. We were already pretty much out of the great depression by Pearl Habor, having sold arms to the allies until they ran out of money. I think the reason they let it happen is that Americans just couldn't support a foreign war and the powers that be wanted to keep making money on the arms they'd been selling.

Thats such an absurd theory. The president, who isnt going to be the one raking in all that arms money, is not going to sacrifice the lives of Americans just so some friends of his can make some extra money.

Arms dealer: "Hey, could you let a bunch of soldiers die so we can make some quick cash?"

President: "Yeah, i could probably do that."

 

[there4eyeM]

Looked at from even an amateur's military viewpoint, Pearl Harbor was the only worthy target of the immense, aircraft carrier-rich Imperial Japanese Fleet. A sudden, ferocious attack was something to be prepared for. It is said that such a scenario as actually happened was war gamed in the late thirties, the brainchild of an American Naval officer.
Nevertheless, it would not be possible for such an installation to be on full alert 24/7, or constantly at sea to avoid catastrophe (as the U.S. carriers were). Besides, American planners assumed as well as the Japanese did that U.S. productivity would bury Japan rapidly. What was there really to fear? No invasion of strategic consequence was feasible. Let the "Japs" start things.
What else could have been done? Many things, but totally avoiding conflict with Japan was probably impossible, given the situation.

 

[Bush92]

what do you have planned for this sunday? church, football...family...just doing nothing....yard work or shoveling snow..take a minute for many this will be the annivesary of the most hellish day anyone living thru it could remember.

We should have dropped 10 atomic bombs on Japan. Remember Pearl Harbor and the Bataan Death March.

 

[gipper]

what do you have planned for this sunday? church, football...family...just doing nothing....yard work or shoveling snow..take a minute for many this will be the annivesary of the most hellish day anyone living thru it could remember.

We should have dropped 10 atomic bombs on Japan. Remember Pearl Harbor and the Bataan Death March.

Good God you’re crazy.

Murder vast numbers of innocent civilians in retaliation for your enemy’s attack on military installations and treatment of military prisoners. Makes sense to the blood thirsty Neocons and Neolibs.

 

[Bush92]

what do you have planned for this sunday? church, football...family...just doing nothing....yard work or shoveling snow..take a minute for many this will be the annivesary of the most hellish day anyone living thru it could remember.

We should have dropped 10 atomic bombs on Japan. Remember Pearl Harbor and the Bataan Death March.

Good God you’re crazy.

Murder vast numbers of innocent civilians in retaliation for your enemy’s attack on military installations and treatment of military prisoners. Makes sense to the blood thirsty Neocons and Neolibs.

We should have.

 

[Bush92]

what do you have planned for this sunday? church, football...family...just doing nothing....yard work or shoveling snow..take a minute for many this will be the annivesary of the most hellish day anyone living thru it could remember.

We should have dropped 10 atomic bombs on Japan. Remember Pearl Harbor and the Bataan Death March.

Good God you’re crazy.

Murder vast numbers of innocent civilians in retaliation for your enemy’s attack on military installations and treatment of military prisoners. Makes sense to the blood thirsty Neocons and Neolibs.

There are no innocent civilians in modern warfare.