7 Dec. 1941

[BlackAsCoal]

That's news to me. How far up the Chain of command did their warning get?

And if you had would you have found the Japanese fleet and carriers which were 275 miles North of Pearl?

Not bloody likely, you wouldn't have.

And certainly not in time to do all that much if you had either.

275 miles off the coast of Hawaii is what I read. That's according to the Japanese Imperial Navy's reports.

First of all, they'd have had to know what direction to fly in. Finding a fleet in that vast ocean when you don't know in which direction (exactly) to go isn't easy, your know?

There was no radar that would pinpoint that fleet on 12/07/41

That makes no sense brother. The Ward SANK and minisub .. and that act ALONE hould have alarmed the entire base. NO one should have been caught napping. And how would they know how far the fleet was from shore if they didn't go look? Pearl didn't just have ships, it had planes .. lots of them.

Churchill wasn't above rewriting history OR getting it wrong, either, BAC.

He often did exactly that to make himself appear less culpable for his own mistakes, ya know. He didn't for example, assume much responsibility for the disaster at Galipoli.

Any idea of the firestorm that would have caused had he not spoken with fact? He got a Nobel Prize for what he said. Irrespective of what anyone thinks of the Nobel Prize, had it been unsubstantiated accounts that pianted the American President as knowingly allowed the death and destruction of that day to occur unchallenged .. do you really believe it would have not set off a firestorm that would have discredited the Nobel Prize into oblivion?

FDR and Churchill changed the entire fucking world. I'm not understanding how you give such callous drift to his words on anything to do with World War II.

The incompetence defence does stretch our credibility muscle, I agree.

But history is replete with such military incompetence. Every "surprise attack" in history is pretty much the result of military incompetence.

Because it is the duty to the military NOT to be surprised, and it is the DUTY of the enemy to surprise the enemy.

Sometimes the surprise works out, sometimes not.

I hate to go here .. but isn't this the same shit said about 9/11? Our multi-trillion dollar military apparatus is suddemly so incompetent than 15 cave men could overcome it with butter knives.

9/11 .. so easy a caveman could do it.

Is there any question of why the invasion of Iraq was so easy to sell to the American public?

Is there any question why George Bush served two terms?

You can tell Americans ANY damn thing .. and we'll swallow it.

We are a nation of swallowers.

I surely don't think that Churchill was in on a plot to allow the attack on Pearl Harbor, do you?

Unknown. Churchill and FDR often disagreed .. but FDR had the upper hand. Churchill didn't want to bend to FDR's demand that he give up the British Isles, or a lot of what FDR was demanding in the Lend-Lease Agreement .. but like I said, FDR had the upper hand and he knew it.

That being said, they both knew Japan was the road to war.

And if there was a plot among hundreds of Americans starting with FDR, do you think FDR would have dragged Winston into it?

Again, unknown. Churchill was desperate .. and it doesn't take a plot known to hundreds of Americans. In a chain of command the left hand doesn't always know what the right hand is doing, nor understand or contimplate what orders they've recieved actually accomplish.

Why would he do that? Bring Churchill in on the plot, I mean.

That makes no sense.

Chuchill can intuit that FDR knew, I suppose, but KNOW?

No way.

I would imagine that Churchill knew as much about FDR's intentions and thoughts on the war than Eleanor or any American politician.

Bottom line brother .. there is no way to discredit nor discount Churchill on the events of WWII.

Take a moment and think about that.

 

[del]

Bottom line brother .. there is no way to discredit nor discount Churchill on the events of WWII.

Take a moment and think about that.

nor is there any way to confirm it.

take a moment and think about that.

 

[BlackAsCoal]

nor is there any way to confirm it.

take a moment and think about that.

No way to confirm what? .. Churchill's words?

Wouldn't that be a really dumb thing to even suggest?

Or are you arguing Churchill's credibility?

Wouldn't that be equally dumb?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Editec we are dealing with a conspiracy whack job. He may be as smart as hell but he has decided what happened and no amount of fact truth or evidence is going to change his thoughts. Hell he does not even need evidence, just heresay is good enough.

Gunny already pointed out to him that until 2002 we did not even know we had sunk a mini sub. The details support that from the dispatches and reports from the picket ships. There is no reason to believe that because a SUB was breaking into Pearl that the entire Japanese Carrier Fleet was just off shore.

The Japanese did not even have dedicated oilers for their Navy. They had to send along commercial ships to refuel the fleet.

He actually believes that Japan also was going to surrender in 1945 with no Atomic bombs. I have posted the FACTS on that lie more than once here. Hell even after two Nukes the Army tried to prevent the Emperor from surrendering. They staged a coup.

He lives in a fantasy land.

 

[del]

No way to confirm what? .. Churchill's words?

Wouldn't that be a really dumb thing to even suggest?

Or are you arguing Churchill's credibility?

Wouldn't that be equally dumb?

the latter, and no dumber than your assertions further up the thread.

who was around to offer a different version of events than churchill?

fdr was dead, and no one would believe stalin anyway.

or should i just swoon because it's churchill and acquiesce?

 

[TR_GOP]

He actually believes that Japan also was going to surrender in 1945 with no Atomic bombs. I have posted the FACTS on that lie more than once here. Hell even after two Nukes the Army tried to prevent the Emperor from surrendering. They staged a coup.

He lives in a fantasy land.

The first drop should have been over water but fairly close to land, for two reasons. First, in case a failure caused the igniter charge to fail. I know unlikely, but the possibility existed. Two, a nuke in Toyko Bay followed by a 24 hour deadline would have exerted tremendous upon the government.

But in the heat of war and the methods Japan waged it Truman, the War Department, and America wanted revenge The greatest responsibility for Hiroshima and Nagasaki rest with the Emperor.

Something to chew on; any society that submits to authority without question, who possesses a world view that looks down upon the people and cultures of other lands, and that views itself as invincible and above judgement, a country like that places itself at great risk.

 

[dilloduck]

The first drop should have been over water but fairly close to land, for two reasons. First, in case a failure caused the igniter charge to fail. I know unlikely, but the possibility existed. Two, a nuke in Toyko Bay followed by a 24 hour deadline would have exerted tremendous upon the government.

But in the heat of war and the methods Japan waged it Truman, the War Department, and America wanted revenge The greatest responsibility for Hiroshima and Nagasaki rest with the Emperor.

Something to chew on; any society that submits to authority without question, who possesses a world view that looks down upon the people and cultures of other lands, and that views itself as invincible and above judgement, a country like that places itself at great risk.

Americans can question authority all they want -and do. We just aren't going to get answers that include the whole truth.

 

[DiveCon]

The first drop should have been over water but fairly close to land, for two reasons. First, in case a failure caused the igniter charge to fail. I know unlikely, but the possibility existed. Two, a nuke in Toyko Bay followed by a 24 hour deadline would have exerted tremendous upon the government.

But in the heat of war and the methods Japan waged it Truman, the War Department, and America wanted revenge The greatest responsibility for Hiroshima and Nagasaki rest with the Emperor.

Something to chew on; any society that submits to authority without question, who possesses a world view that looks down upon the people and cultures of other lands, and that views itself as invincible and above judgement, a country like that places itself at great risk.

a nuke in Tokyo bay would have killed a lot more people and that would have included the emporor and most of the government
there wouldnt have been anyone with wide spread authority to surrender

 

[BlackAsCoal]

the latter, and no dumber than your assertions further up the thread.

who was around to offer a different version of events than churchill?

fdr was dead, and no one would believe stalin anyway.

or should i just swoon because it's churchill and acquiesce?

Frankly, I'm surprised you even know who Churchill was.

And I most definately don't expect you to figure it out.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Frankly, I'm surprised you even know who Churchill was.

And I most definately don't expect you to figure it out.

Seek professional help.

 

[BlackAsCoal]

Seek professional help.

Kiss my ass Mr. "I need to be told what to do"

 

[GHook93]

What I did was nurse a hangover from a rowdy wedding from the night before. Watch the Bears romp the jags with my son. The said a few god bless America, the best country to ever be formed. I told my son to cherish the fact that he is an America and never take it for granted!

 

[del]

Frankly, I'm surprised you even know who Churchill was.

And I most definately don't expect you to figure it out.

good deflection.
not particularly accurate nor creative, but it served your purpose.
have a nice day, if the man will allow you to.

 

[Old Rocks]

The first drop should have been over water but fairly close to land, for two reasons. First, in case a failure caused the igniter charge to fail. I know unlikely, but the possibility existed. Two, a nuke in Toyko Bay followed by a 24 hour deadline would have exerted tremendous upon the government.

But in the heat of war and the methods Japan waged it Truman, the War Department, and America wanted revenge The greatest responsibility for Hiroshima and Nagasaki rest with the Emperor.

Something to chew on; any society that submits to authority without question, who possesses a world view that looks down upon the people and cultures of other lands, and that views itself as invincible and above judgement, a country like that places itself at great risk.

Now where would we look to see any country like that in the last eight years?

 

[BaronVonBigmeat]

If anyone wants to read a good summary of Day of Deceit:

Chronicles: A Magazine of American Culture | Your Home for Traditional Conservatism » Misallocated Infamy

also

Naval History Magazine: Advance Warning? The Red Cross Connection, by Daryl S. Borguist

 

[BlackAsCoal]

good deflection.
not particularly accurate nor creative, but it served your purpose.
have a nice day, if the man will allow you to.

I am the man.

 

[Gunny]

I am the man.

You still beating this dead horse conspiracy theory?

 

[BlackAsCoal]

If anyone wants to read a good summary of Day of Deceit:

Chronicles: A Magazine of American Culture | Your Home for Traditional Conservatism » Misallocated Infamy

also

Naval History Magazine: Advance Warning? The Red Cross Connection, by Daryl S. Borguist

The article about the Red Cross was interesting .. not enough solid verification to use as evidence, but interesting still.

I guess it's time to discredit the Red Cross.

I believe that if Jesus said it he'd have to be discredited too.

However, the other article verifies much of what has been said, and posted here and in my other thread that was moved to the trash dump. It verifies what Churchill, Stimson, and Miles have said .. as supports what I've posted.

 

[BlackAsCoal]

You still beating this dead horse conspiracy theory?

You can call irrefutable facts, events, names, dates, and statements from the historical record a conspiracy theory if it makes you comfortable. That's cool.

And you have the power to toss anything that makes you uncomfortable here in the trash. That's cool too.

But you don't have the power to alter history that makes you uncomfortable my brother .. and that's all the truth I need on this issue.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

You can call irrefutable facts, events, names, dates, and statements from the historical record a conspiracy theory if it makes you comfortable. That's cool.

And you have the power to toss anything that makes you uncomfortable here in the trash. That's cool too.

But you don't have the power to alter history that makes you uncomfortable my brother .. and that's all the truth I need on this issue.

The one unable to accept reality is you. Every thing is a big fat conspiracy. Your brain is wired wrong. You may present a cooler head then say Eots but it is just as twisted.