5 Founding Fathers' Skepticism About Christianity Would Make Them Unelectable Today

[koshergrl]

All of this has been explained and documented.

That you and koshergirl disagree, for various reasons, means nothing factually.

WHAT has been explained and documented? Certainly not your assertion that the founding fathers were *afraid* of religion as much as they were *afraid* of an interfering and oppressive government.

Over and over and over in this thread and other threads. You have no point.

And you're a liar. You refuse to provide verification because you have no verification that the founding fathers were "afraid" of religion, as you (lyingly) stated.

Your pitiful "I'm not going to prove it because it's already been proven" is just that...pitiful, and doesn't wash.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The letter Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptists was to reassure them that the government would not intrude into their church activities.

The letter itself:

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.

He closes with prayers to the common father and creator of man.

No doubt Jefferson would take his sword to the liberals of today.

Jefferson, a conservative in many ways, would have lined up with the libs and would have smote down the evangelical right wing of Christianity today if its churches ever threatened to interfere in government.

 

[emilynghiem]

Still waiting for a source that verifies what was stated.

And so far, per usual..nada. Not a thing except prevarication, pontification, deferral and insult.

Dear KG:
The truth is, there does not need to be any contradiction in how these men or other leaders today both embrace the true meaning/message of God/Christ/the Bible
while also REJECTING the false religion and hypocrisy of imposing corrupt authority.

Whatever side someone wants to justify, they will interpret just those parts of what these men said. They were probably very fair in validating both the true parts and concepts they agreed with, while denouncing the oppressive abuses of religion including Christianity.

You can see this today in our politicians and Constitutionalists.
Like when Guiliani said he was pro-life and against abortion,
but politically he had to respect other views under the Constitution.

So you can personally be prolife while politically enforcing
Constitutional standards that don't allow prolife views to be imposed by law.

So the same arguments go on today, if a politician is
"truly prolife" or is
"prochoice"
and people disagree by citing whatever this person says that backs up their argument.
When in fact the person is PERSONALLY prolife but politically may enforce Constitutional standards that defend the prochoice position by law.

The Founding Fathers seem to have said similar things, defending what they believe to be true of God and Christ, but also defending the Constitutional principles of not imposing these things through the state.

Where I found Jefferson to be intriguing is in his statement
that almost sounds like divine right to rule to me:, where he admits that government
leaders may be called by God to make certain decisions by God's will
that do not represent public opinion; so the will of the people
is not necessarily the basis of policy. I think this technically goes against
democratic principles of free will, informed consent, and Constitutional government
by the people and acknowledges that God's will or providence still governs.

That would technically violate separation of church and state.
I found it interesting that he acknowledges this factor.

 

[koshergrl]

Ah, more lies from Starkey.

Again, please source your repeated lie that the founding fathers were afraid of religion.

 

[JakeStarkey]

WHAT has been explained and documented? Certainly not your assertion that the founding fathers were *afraid* of religion as much as they were *afraid* of an interfering and oppressive government.

Over and over and over in this thread and other threads. You have no point.

And you're a liar. You refuse to provide verification because you have no verification that the founding fathers were "afraid" of religion, as you (lyingly) stated. Your pitiful "I'm not going to prove it because it's already been proven" is just that...pitiful, and doesn't wash.

It has been proved, and given, to you over and over and over, and you simply keep putting your hands over your eyes and going "wah" real loud and that "I never got it". Not going to do it again.

The problem with some of evangelicals are the heresies that are built into it (Rapture, for instance, a 19th century British evangelical creation), and we have to put up with your nonsense through the decades.

However, it is your right to have ears and not hear and to have eyes and not see. But the right to refuse to listen with your soul as well as your mind in no way excuses from being wrong.

 

[koshergrl]

And you're a liar again. It has never been proven. Not in this thread, or in any other.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Time and time again a rational thinking individual would have concluded koshergirl is a kook on this issue, and rightfully so.

 

[Katzndogz]

The letter Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptists was to reassure them that the government would not intrude into their church activities.

The letter itself:

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.

He closes with prayers to the common father and creator of man.

No doubt Jefferson would take his sword to the liberals of today.

Jefferson, a conservative in many ways, would have lined up with the libs and would have smote down the evangelical right wing of Christianity today if its churches ever threatened to interfere in government.

In reality, the government wants to interfere with the Churches. Jefferson was reassuring the Church that there would not be interference in Church functions by the government. Not true any more is it?

This is a fracture line. This is a point on which there is no compromise. There are a lot of them. With a little practice you will be able to recognize them on your own.

 

[daveman]

I see lots of moonbat horseshit, but I don't see any corroboration.

Of course, that's because there isn't any.

Hey, dumbshit Cammie:

I see you punked out. What a little weasel you are.

Bush didn't even try to get Bin Laden................Obama nailed his ass then dumped his Al Queda remains in the sea. As we speak Osama is phucking around with his 72 virgins.

Osama bin Laden dead: Photo of Obama watching the Al Qaeda leader die on live TV | Mail Online

You dumb son of a bitch.

You made this claim:

"The G.H.W. Bush family made the arrangements."

Back it up. Don't keep repeating stupid moonbat inanities as if they prove something.

All they prove is you're a moron.

 

[JakeStarkey]

In reality, Jefferson did not want the government in the churches or the churches in government.

You need to read Jefferson much more carefully, katz, particularly his letter of June 5, 1824 to Major Cartwright and the role of Christianity in American law. Try The Writings of Thomas Jefferson.

 

[Katzndogz]

The photo of obama watching tv is a phony. It was a staged photo op.

 

[Katzndogz]

In reality, Jefferson did not want the government in the churches or the churches in government.

You need to read Jefferson much more carefully, katz, particularly his letter of June 5, 1824 to Major Cartwright and the role of Christianity in American law. Try The Writings of Thomas Jefferson.

I've read quite a bit about Thomas Jefferson, who saw himself as a Christian no matter how liberals want to pervert him today.

What they built so carefully is gone. The tragedy is that their words and writings have been used to erase it.

 

[daveman]

Thomas Jefferson -
"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.
"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

Franklin -
"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshiped.

That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;

But I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed; especially as I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure."
--Benjamin Franklin wrote this in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790.

Madison -
"Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ."
--America's Providential History, p. 93.

Adams -
"The hope of a Christian is inseparable from his faith. Whoever believes in the divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must hope that the religion of Jesus shall prevail throughout the earth. Never since the foundation of the world have the prospects of mankind been more encouraging to that hope than they appear to be at the present time. And may the associated distribution of the Bible proceed and prosper till the Lord shall have made 'bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God' (Isaiah 52:10)."
--Life of John Quincy Adams, p. 248.

Massive bullshit. The forebears believed in a god of nature. That's why they spelled it out in the declaration of independence. DUUUHHH

You don't get to directly contradict their words without massive ridicule being heaped upon you.

Fucking dumbass.

 

[koshergrl]

In reality, Jefferson did not want the government in the churches or the churches in government.

You need to read Jefferson much more carefully, katz, particularly his letter of June 5, 1824 to Major Cartwright and the role of Christianity in American law. Try The Writings of Thomas Jefferson.

You need to quote it. It's not our job to pore through the tomes, particularly given your own reluctance to specifically point out the evidence.

By tradition, you're a liar. If you don't have the proof at hand, just say so.

 

[JakeStarkey]

In reality, Jefferson did not want the government in the churches or the churches in government.

You need to read Jefferson much more carefully, katz, particularly his letter of June 5, 1824 to Major Cartwright and the role of Christianity in American law. Try The Writings of Thomas Jefferson.

I've read quite a bit about Thomas Jefferson, who saw himself as a Christian no matter how liberals want to pervert him today. What they built so carefully is gone. The tragedy is that their words and writings have been used to erase it.

Nope, TJ was not a Christian, and no amount of evangelical far right revision is going to change that.

Read the letter, Katz. Read what Jefferson has to say, not those who want to "interpret" him into what he was not.

 

[koshergrl]

Yes, he was a Christian, you nitwit.

If you have a point, make it.

 

[JakeStarkey]

In reality, Jefferson did not want the government in the churches or the churches in government.

You need to read Jefferson much more carefully, katz, particularly his letter of June 5, 1824 to Major Cartwright and the role of Christianity in American law. Try The Writings of Thomas Jefferson.

You need to quote it. It's not our job to pore through the tomes, particularly given your own reluctance to specifically point out the evidence. By tradition, you're a liar. If you don't have the proof at hand, just say so.

You are projecting your fate as a liar before the foundations of the world, koshergirl. You can parrot and ferret all you want, and it means nothing.

You can find the letter online, and that's the end of it. Jefferson was no more a Christian than koshergirl.

 

[koshergrl]

So now you have two lies you have yet to prove....

#1, that the founding fathers were "afraid" of religion, and
#2, that Jefferson wasn't a Christian.

I won't hold my breath. This is just more lies and posturing from the lying, posturing left, who have nothing else.

 

[koshergrl]

"Mitch Horowitz, editor of the new edition, said: "Ethically, Jefferson was a Christian, but – as he put it – 'a real Christian,' who believed in the moral philosophy of Christ rather than the religion later created around Christ, which Jefferson felt would have appalled the man himself."
Thomas Jefferson's revolutionary take on the Bible reissued | World news | The Guardian

 

[koshergrl]

"Although Jefferson's specific denominational and congregational ties were limited in his adulthood and his ever-evolving theological beliefs were distinctively his own, he was without a doubt a Protestant. One should keep in mind that despite his later self-stated non-affiliation with any specific denomination, he was raised as an Episcopalian, attended Episcopalian services many times as an adult and as President, and he expressed a clear affinity for Unitarianism. However these denominations may be classified now, uring Jefferson's lifetime, the Episcopal Church and the Unitarian Church were both considered to be Protestant denominations."
The religion of Thomas Jefferson, third U.S. President

The kook Deist-proporters are just that...kooks.