29% of Americans say religion ‘out of date’

[logical4u]

Sometimes when I teach a class in the schools I start out by telling the kids that they have a right to do whatever they want to do, I cannot physically stop them (unless it is physically dangeous to the person or others). they can sit there and not do anything, leave the room and the school, and even talk. However, I have the right to delve out the consequences for any behavior that warrants it.

God would say, you have all the freedom you want, but if you want His blessings, you have the freedom to honor Him as your Creator.

What does "honoring" this god, have to do with getting blessings? Or, more to the point, what does "honoring" that god have to do with deserving blessings? Is that god deserving of "honor" merely because it has the power to create? Why should I be in a debt-obligation that I never asked for, that came to me unbidden? What's ethical, or for that matter honorable, about a contract that is forced on me?

A being does not deserve respect, much less obedience, merely because it is powerful. And I obviously do not have "freedom," if I can only deviate from divine command on pain of unimaginably severe punishment.

An ethically evolved attitude would say that if I receive "blessings," it is on account of my own, righteous action (or, luck). It is a primitive, child-like ethics which says, "no matter what you do, please the Elder, the one who is bigger and stronger than you, so that he decides not to punish you!" A deity which dispenses reward and punishment simply on the basis of others' obsequious recognition "You're number One!" is not an honorable deity, but a mere tyrant. If I choose the right, it is something that is right, regardless of what any Creator thinks. And if I choose the right, I deserve reward, regardless of what any Creator thinks.

I get that you have a problem with 'God'. Do you have a problem with parents training their children? The parent tells the child: this is how you must behave or ..., if the parent states that punishment will be given, should the parent carry thru? Should the parent allow the child to use unacceptable behavior? Should the parent allow the child to do whatever action is chosen, regardless of the consequences? Does the child initially do things to 'please' the parent? Does punishment and thus 'fear' need to be applied to get the message across that some behavior is unacceptable? Once the child has learned the parent has the 'power' to inflict 'misery' (be it phycological, physical, seperation, etc), the child is 'taught' that pleasing the parent has 'rewards', displeasing the parent, causes 'problems'.

G*d is very much like a loving parent. The Bible is a book about peoples' 'spiritual' growth. It is a story that 'every' person must live. How it ends is entirely up to them. If they want to misbehave, there is punishment, if they want to behave, there are rewards. It is so simply and practical, that most 'intellectuals' cannot grasp it. They have sacrificed their spirituality for knowledge and proverbs says something about intellect without 'wisdom' is useless.

Evil is always attracted to wealth and power (things that can come from moral behavior as well as immoral behavior). It will always seek to pull people away from the Lord. It will use, any arguement, any force, any law, any method. People (most) take awhile to uncover deceit, evil in their midst can operate for some time before discovery. If you are not seeking 'goodness' (the Lord) to begin with, how can you identify evil? If you are not willing to identify evil, how can you say that life without the belief in God lets you choose to be 'good'? What do you have for comparison? If every behavior is 'acceptable', what authority do you have to decalre 'any' behavior as 'bad'?

 

[Father Time]

Sometimes when I teach a class in the schools I start out by telling the kids that they have a right to do whatever they want to do, I cannot physically stop them (unless it is physically dangeous to the person or others). they can sit there and not do anything, leave the room and the school, and even talk. However, I have the right to delve out the consequences for any behavior that warrants it.

God would say, you have all the freedom you want, but if you want His blessings, you have the freedom to honor Him as your Creator.

What does "honoring" this god, have to do with getting blessings? Or, more to the point, what does "honoring" that god have to do with deserving blessings? Is that god deserving of "honor" merely because it has the power to create? Why should I be in a debt-obligation that I never asked for, that came to me unbidden? What's ethical, or for that matter honorable, about a contract that is forced on me?

A being does not deserve respect, much less obedience, merely because it is powerful. And I obviously do not have "freedom," if I can only deviate from divine command on pain of unimaginably severe punishment.

An ethically evolved attitude would say that if I receive "blessings," it is on account of my own, righteous action (or, luck). It is a primitive, child-like ethics which says, "no matter what you do, please the Elder, the one who is bigger and stronger than you, so that he decides not to punish you!" A deity which dispenses reward and punishment simply on the basis of others' obsequious recognition "You're number One!" is not an honorable deity, but a mere tyrant. If I choose the right, it is something that is right, regardless of what any Creator thinks. And if I choose the right, I deserve reward, regardless of what any Creator thinks.

I get that you have a problem with 'God'. Do you have a problem with parents training their children? The parent tells the child: this is how you must behave or ..., if the parent states that punishment will be given, should the parent carry thru? Should the parent allow the child to use unacceptable behavior? Should the parent allow the child to do whatever action is chosen, regardless of the consequences? Does the child initially do things to 'please' the parent? Does punishment and thus 'fear' need to be applied to get the message across that some behavior is unacceptable? Once the child has learned the parent has the 'power' to inflict 'misery' (be it phycological, physical, seperation, etc), the child is 'taught' that pleasing the parent has 'rewards', displeasing the parent, causes 'problems'.

Yes but at some point the child becomes old enough to have the right to make their own decisions about how they live their life and would be fully in their rights to tell their parents to 'suck it'. We call that adulthood, and if someone refuses to recognize someone's rights as an adult they are no friend.

G*d is very much like a loving parent.

Oh yeah right, 'do what I say or I'll cause you unimaginable torment for all eternity'. He's exactly as loving as a man with a gun pointed at your head barking orders.

The Bible is a book about peoples' 'spiritual' growth. It is a story that 'every' person must live. How it ends is entirely up to them. If they want to misbehave, there is punishment, if they want to behave, there are rewards. It is so simply and practical, that most 'intellectuals' cannot grasp it.

Name one.
It's not hard to grasp punishment and reward.

Evil is always attracted to wealth and power (things that can come from moral behavior as well as immoral behavior). It will always seek to pull people away from the Lord. It will use, any arguement, any force, any law, any method. People (most) take awhile to uncover deceit, evil in their midst can operate for some time before discovery. If you are not seeking 'goodness' (the Lord) to begin with, how can you identify evil?

God is not the only thing that is good, in fact I wouldn't even put him as a great role model.

If you are not willing to identify evil, how can you say that life without the belief in God lets you choose to be 'good'?

God gives you no choice, he's the man holding a gun to your head.

 

[logical4u]

What does "honoring" this god, have to do with getting blessings? Or, more to the point, what does "honoring" that god have to do with deserving blessings? Is that god deserving of "honor" merely because it has the power to create? Why should I be in a debt-obligation that I never asked for, that came to me unbidden? What's ethical, or for that matter honorable, about a contract that is forced on me?

A being does not deserve respect, much less obedience, merely because it is powerful. And I obviously do not have "freedom," if I can only deviate from divine command on pain of unimaginably severe punishment.

An ethically evolved attitude would say that if I receive "blessings," it is on account of my own, righteous action (or, luck). It is a primitive, child-like ethics which says, "no matter what you do, please the Elder, the one who is bigger and stronger than you, so that he decides not to punish you!" A deity which dispenses reward and punishment simply on the basis of others' obsequious recognition "You're number One!" is not an honorable deity, but a mere tyrant. If I choose the right, it is something that is right, regardless of what any Creator thinks. And if I choose the right, I deserve reward, regardless of what any Creator thinks.

I get that you have a problem with 'God'. Do you have a problem with parents training their children? The parent tells the child: this is how you must behave or ..., if the parent states that punishment will be given, should the parent carry thru? Should the parent allow the child to use unacceptable behavior? Should the parent allow the child to do whatever action is chosen, regardless of the consequences? Does the child initially do things to 'please' the parent? Does punishment and thus 'fear' need to be applied to get the message across that some behavior is unacceptable? Once the child has learned the parent has the 'power' to inflict 'misery' (be it phycological, physical, seperation, etc), the child is 'taught' that pleasing the parent has 'rewards', displeasing the parent, causes 'problems'.

Yes but at some point the child becomes old enough to have the right to make their own decisions about how they live their life and would be fully in their rights to tell their parents to 'suck it'. We call that adulthood, and if someone refuses to recognize someone's rights as an adult they are no friend.



Oh yeah right, 'do what I say or I'll cause you unimaginable torment for all eternity'. He's exactly as loving as a man with a gun pointed at your head barking orders.



Name one.
It's not hard to grasp punishment and reward.

Evil is always attracted to wealth and power (things that can come from moral behavior as well as immoral behavior). It will always seek to pull people away from the Lord. It will use, any arguement, any force, any law, any method. People (most) take awhile to uncover deceit, evil in their midst can operate for some time before discovery. If you are not seeking 'goodness' (the Lord) to begin with, how can you identify evil?

God is not the only thing that is good, in fact I wouldn't even put him as a great role model.

If you are not willing to identify evil, how can you say that life without the belief in God lets you choose to be 'good'?

God gives you no choice, he's the man holding a gun to your head.

Where are the people walking around with 'guns' to their heads?
If your analogy were 'true' wouldn't every person be walking 'the straight line'? Wouldn't every country consider the citizens and govern, appropriately?
Beause you are told there is a choice you claim ther is not one: therefore you refuse to give the Lord the respect. If you believe the whole 'gun' thing, doesn't that mean, that you believe you are condemning yourself to punishment?
It is true, we grow up, why would we disrespect the parent once we were mature? Why would we go out of our way to declare a parent 'not important in our lives'?
What about the belief in the Lord threatens you so completely, that you disparage anyone that has found a happy way of life believing that the Lord exists and Yeshua saved them?
If someone tries to tell you about the Lord, do you politely say, I know all I need to, can we drop it, or do you choose to go off, like someone tried to cut off your arm? Millions of Christians lead quiet, productive lives. Why do people that do not believe 'show' them a better way?

 

[sboyle24]

I don't care for religion. Don't let it influence my government please. Thanks.

 

[Polaris]

In the 'Iron curtain" nations, there have been people imprisoned for being Christian. Their stories of being tortured and beaten, the guards doing it telling them that "they" (the guards) were the prisoners 'god' now. If the leader of a nation has no fear of a 'higher power', wouldn't that allow them to justify any behavior 'in the name of goodness'?

Again, you're still so close, but still you don't get it. Again, religion is politics. And history demonstrates that the belief that deity is on your side in a conflict, gives you license to commit unlimited violence. "Kill them All - God will know his own."

As far as 'practical examples': look at people where most in a community share a faith and worship together. Compare it to a community where agnostics and atheists live. Which community would you want to raise a family in, which community would you go to 'get immoral'?

You've got to be kidding. Look at secular Europe - there's a whole sub-continent of people who are better educated, with less social pathology than exists amongst Americans. Then, look to the growing communities of Muslim immigrants, that you can also find there - good traditionalist believers, to be sure, but many amongst them have contempt for European democracy and civil rights. And tell me again that believers are more moral than non-believers.

I get that you have a problem with 'God'. Do you have a problem with parents training their children?

I have a problem with a belief system which promotes the infantilization of all of us, especially the adults.

The parent tells the child: this is how you must behave or ..., if the parent states that punishment will be given, should the parent carry thru?

If the punishment is unjust, should the parent mete it out anyway, to demonstrate his/her power?

G*d is very much like a loving parent.

A "loving parent" that commands human sacrfice?? - see the story of Abraham and Issac.
Actually read what the story says, not how your Sunday-school apologetics told you how to interpret it.

The Bible is a book about peoples' 'spiritual' growth.

Oh, really? I haven't read one story in the Bible that shows how a person changed and became better in the end. Maybe, yes, how they obeyed better - but not where their character actually shows growth. Not one.

It is so simply and practical, that most 'intellectuals' cannot grasp it. They have sacrificed their spirituality for knowledge and proverbs says something about intellect without 'wisdom' is useless.

Look: when it comes to faith vs. reason, Kierkegaard was right - it is an either-or. Either you think for yourself, or you check your brain at the door and believe. That's certainly the message of Job.

I agree that intellect without wisdom is a shallow thing. But to assume, as Proverbs does, that those who don't share your supernatural beliefs, are therefore lacking wisdom, is the height of spiritual hubris.

Religion is very much like a community: it is a place for people that believe alike to come together and improve themselves and thru the grace of G*d, their families and their towns.

Yes, that's right, as I said religion is an essentially political phenomenon.

Evil is always attracted to wealth and power (things that can come from moral behavior as well as immoral behavior). It will always seek to pull people away from the Lord.

Power corrupts. Without exception. Why do you assume that people should want to be drawn toward this "lord"? If God is absolute Power, then Evil should be maximally attracted to God, then.

It will use, any arguement, any force, any law, any method. People (most) take awhile to uncover deceit, evil in their midst can operate for some time before discovery. If you are not seeking 'goodness' (the Lord) to begin with, how can you identify evil?

I have to figure it out for myself - but, I do not make this effort, all by myself. I have the experience of my entire community of fellows, to help me. Often, there will be debate about what is good and what is evil - sometimes, we will find it necessary to fight about it. But that's as good as it gets. We don't have answers dropped on our heads from out of the sky. The people who claim that answers have come this way, merely want to obviate debate and frighten others into doing what they say. And that's what religion is all about.

We have to wrestle out the knowledge of good and evil for ourselves. And you know what? Just assume for a minute that there are no gods, nothing out there; then you have to reflect and realize that all the spectacular spiritual insight and wisdom found in the sacred texts of history, was all written by us - by human beings. No gods required. Having found out moral truths for ourselves, why make up some imaginary king that we have to obey?

 

[Avatar4321]

I don't care for religion. Don't let it influence my government please. Thanks.

Then find a government where people are not free to voice their opinions and influence decisions. Because it's only by restricting freedom that you will accomplish your goal.

 

[sboyle24]

I don't care for religion. Don't let it influence my government please. Thanks.

Then find a government where people are not free to voice their opinions and influence decisions. Because it's only by restricting freedom that you will accomplish your goal.

How so? You are free to practice you religion regardless of the research done with stem cells, if the girl up the street gets an abortion, or if two gay people choose to marry. Voicing your opinion on the matter is fine. You claim it freedom to enslave them with your beliefs? You are ridiculous. You can practice you religion! Go ahead! The government can allow you to do that at the same time!

 

[logical4u]

In the 'Iron curtain" nations, there have been people imprisoned for being Christian. Their stories of being tortured and beaten, the guards doing it telling them that "they" (the guards) were the prisoners 'god' now. If the leader of a nation has no fear of a 'higher power', wouldn't that allow them to justify any behavior 'in the name of goodness'?

Again, you're still so close, but still you don't get it. Again, religion is politics. And history demonstrates that the belief that deity is on your side in a conflict, gives you license to commit unlimited violence. "Kill them All - God will know his own."

As far as 'practical examples': look at people where most in a community share a faith and worship together. Compare it to a community where agnostics and atheists live. Which community would you want to raise a family in, which community would you go to 'get immoral'?

You've got to be kidding. Look at secular Europe - there's a whole sub-continent of people who are better educated, with less social pathology than exists amongst Americans. Then, look to the growing communities of Muslim immigrants, that you can also find there - good traditionalist believers, to be sure, but many amongst them have contempt for European democracy and civil rights. And tell me again that believers are more moral than non-believers.



I have a problem with a belief system which promotes the infantilization of all of us, especially the adults.



If the punishment is unjust, should the parent mete it out anyway, to demonstrate his/her power?



A "loving parent" that commands human sacrfice?? - see the story of Abraham and Issac.
Actually read what the story says, not how your Sunday-school apologetics told you how to interpret it.



Oh, really? I haven't read one story in the Bible that shows how a person changed and became better in the end. Maybe, yes, how they obeyed better - but not where their character actually shows growth. Not one.



Look: when it comes to faith vs. reason, Kierkegaard was right - it is an either-or. Either you think for yourself, or you check your brain at the door and believe. That's certainly the message of Job.

I agree that intellect without wisdom is a shallow thing. But to assume, as Proverbs does, that those who don't share your supernatural beliefs, are therefore lacking wisdom, is the height of spiritual hubris.



Yes, that's right, as I said religion is an essentially political phenomenon.

Evil is always attracted to wealth and power (things that can come from moral behavior as well as immoral behavior). It will always seek to pull people away from the Lord.

Power corrupts. Without exception. Why do you assume that people should want to be drawn toward this "lord"? If God is absolute Power, then Evil should be maximally attracted to God, then.

It will use, any arguement, any force, any law, any method. People (most) take awhile to uncover deceit, evil in their midst can operate for some time before discovery. If you are not seeking 'goodness' (the Lord) to begin with, how can you identify evil?

I have to figure it out for myself - but, I do not make this effort, all by myself. I have the experience of my entire community of fellows, to help me. Often, there will be debate about what is good and what is evil - sometimes, we will find it necessary to fight about it. But that's as good as it gets. We don't have answers dropped on our heads from out of the sky. The people who claim that answers have come this way, merely want to obviate debate and frighten others into doing what they say. And that's what religion is all about.

We have to wrestle out the knowledge of good and evil for ourselves. And you know what? Just assume for a minute that there are no gods, nothing out there; then you have to reflect and realize that all the spectacular spiritual insight and wisdom found in the sacred texts of history, was all written by us - by human beings. No gods required. Having found out moral truths for ourselves, why make up some imaginary king that we have to obey?

Your statment is misleading; without 'gods' being 'out there', much of the literate history would not be there. There are many different cultures that documented the 'gods' or their representatives taught man how to write, read, mathmatics, metalworking, herbalism, etc.

Your "imagine" theory, if true would lead people to be more like they were in ancient history when clans and tribes raided and took from each other, the strong (including the crafty), became the leaders and declared themselves 'gods'. You can see that same mentality taking hold today with the 'global warming' crowd (the ones that believe the earth must be honored, instead of the Lord); they control and manipulate the data to control the population to follow 'their rules'. They have no proof of what they predict will EVER come true, but since they control the 'data', who can prove them wrong.

That you have groups of people deciding what good and evil is demonstrates a delusion. How many of you were influenced by the Lord in your upbringing? How many of you were influenced by people that believe strongly in the Lord, but have not shared that, because they know it would bring 'ridicule' from their friends?

Your want to talk about how 'frightful' the Lord is, can you tell me what problem you have with the ten Commandments as a foundation for law?

When I try to demonstrate where religion has benefited communities all over the world, you want to take very small portions and demonstrate them as failures. When I demonstrate countries where the gov rejected the Lord or made religion illegal, you want to parade communities (Europe) that have been Christian, for the most part for over 1000 years. It is true, there are not as many people there participating in 'religious services', but if asked, I would bet most still believe in the One True God and His Son, Yeshua that gave us teachings that people can STILL use to live productive, happy lives.

You want to say those that believe in Yeshua are just blindly handing over their lives to Him. You are wrong, we are doing it with our eyes fully open, we have seen loved ones that rejected Him and lived miserable lives of their own choosing: unhappy, obsessed with material wealth and power, deceitful, and lonely. Those that seek Yeshua do not stay in that ugly cycle (not saying we don't get tempted, but with His help, we do not stay there).
We are doctors, scientists, judges, nurses, engineers, craftsmen, clerical workers and any other profession you can imagine. Are you saying that one and all, we are all mistaken in our belief? Do you have any proof that we are wrong?

Do you hold out your hand and say if God existed, you would see Him in my hand. When you open your hand, do you only see an empty hand? Have you ever asked a Christian what they saw when you opened your hand? Would you be surprised if they told you they saw God there? A human hand that is so unique, it can be used to identify you out of billions of people; a part of your body that no other animal on the face of the earth, can even begin to use, similarly. Maybe, that is the difference, Christians see things where the intellects come up 'empty'.