2.5 Trillion barrels of Oil Shale Oil

[Eightball]

All I know is this: We have one friggin pile of fuel sitting here on our continent in the form of oil locked in a shale matrix, and it is extractable at $80.00-90.00/barrel!!!

We have more energy locked up in oil shale than all of Saudi Arabia and the other oil mongols of the Middle East combined.

Canada has a friggin pile of oil locked in oil sands too. It's' time we really get serious about exploiting this.

The more we become independent of OPEC cutting off our "nards" when they don't like what we do geo-politically, then we are in the driver's seat.

Just remember the good old 70's OPEC oil embargo......It wasn't a pretty.

 

[Big Fitz]

All I know is this: We have one friggin pile of fuel sitting here on our continent in the form of oil locked in a shale matrix, and it is extractable at $80.00-90.00/barrel!!!

We have more energy locked up in oil shale than all of Saudi Arabia and the other oil mongols of the Middle East combined.

Canada has a friggin pile of oil locked in oil sands too. It's' time we really get serious about exploiting this.

The more we become independent of OPEC cutting off our "nards" when they don't like what we do geo-politically, then we are in the driver's seat.

Just remember the good old 70's OPEC oil embargo......It wasn't a pretty.

but but but...

Peak OIL!!!!! We must preserve it's truthiness!!!! For the love of God won't somebody think of all the poor environmentalnazis who will be exposed as frauds??? We must protect them at all costs! They must not be exposed!

 

[KissMy]

Awe, The Peak Oil doomers are busted again by the August numbers. The chart below shows production capacity is outpacing actual production. We also have a glut of oil in storage. The price of oil is dropping even as the US Dollar weakens. THERE IS NO PEAK OIL.

Total World oil production capacity in July 2010 increased by 820,000 b/d from June 2010 from 90.16 to 90.98 million b/d. World production capacity is measured here as the sum of world liquids production excluding biofuels plus total OPEC spare capacity excluding Iraq, Venezuela and Nigeria.

 

[KissMy]

Oil Trades Near 1-Month Low After U.S. Supplies Rise to Highest in Decades

The U.S. Energy Department report yesterday showed that total petroleum stockpiles surged to the highest level in at least 20 years.

 

[JiggsCasey]

Awe, The Peak Oil doomers are busted again by the August numbers. The chart below shows production capacity is outpacing actual production. We also have a glut of oil in storage. The price of oil is dropping even as the US Dollar weakens. THERE IS NO PEAK OIL.

Total World oil production capacity in July 2010 increased by 820,000 b/d from June 2010 from 90.16 to 90.98 million b/d. World production capacity is measured here as the sum of world liquids production excluding biofuels plus total OPEC spare capacity excluding Iraq, Venezuela and Nigeria.

With the big type, are you trying to compensate for your tiny argument? How bout providing an actual link, so that your latest round of drivel can be held accountable? Is that possible for you, or do you routinely pass off statistics and hope no one calls you on it around here.

In the meantime, "production capacity" right now doesn't mean squat for the course of the next 10 years. Do you even know what "production capacity" means? Probably not. .... It's more a reference to existing infrastructure and known reserve capacity. Not future reserves. Where are the discoveries of new oil in any significance? Still waiting for you to provide that data. You won't, because you can't.

Meanwhile, here's the assessment of longterm production capacity by the Joint Chiefs:

“By 2012, surplus oil production capacity could entirely disappear, and as early as 2015, the shortfall in output could reach nearly 10 million barrels per day,” says the report, which has a foreword by a senior commander, General James N Mattis.
​

And here's how you link, to actually back up your assertions so they don't seem completely baseless:

US military warns oil output may dip causing massive shortages by 2015 | Business | The Guardian

As for the latest shale fan, who probably didn't actually read the thread, if you believe strip mining our own Rocky Mountains for a disgusting energy source that yields a 2:1 EROEI and honestly believe that will save us and get us off Middle Eastern imports, you really have no idea what you're talking about.

Do better.

 

[KissMy]

Awe, The Peak Oil doomers are busted again by the August numbers. The chart below shows production capacity is outpacing actual production. We also have a glut of oil in storage. The price of oil is dropping even as the US Dollar weakens. THERE IS NO PEAK OIL.

Total World oil production capacity in July 2010 increased by 820,000 b/d from June 2010 from 90.16 to 90.98 million b/d. World production capacity is measured here as the sum of world liquids production excluding biofuels plus total OPEC spare capacity excluding Iraq, Venezuela and Nigeria.

With the big type, are you trying to compensate for your tiny argument? How bout providing an actual link, so that your latest round of drivel can be held accountable? Is that possible for you, or do you routinely pass off statistics and hope no one calls you on it around here.

In the meantime, "production capacity" right now doesn't mean squat for the course of the next 10 years. Do you even know what "production capacity" means? Probably not. .... It's more a reference to existing infrastructure and known reserve capacity. Not future reserves. Where are the discoveries of new oil in any significance? Still waiting for you to provide that data. You won't, because you can't.

Meanwhile, here's the assessment of longterm production capacity by the Joint Chiefs:

“By 2012, surplus oil production capacity could entirely disappear, and as early as 2015, the shortfall in output could reach nearly 10 million barrels per day,” says the report, which has a foreword by a senior commander, General James N Mattis.
​

And here's how you link, to actually back up your assertions so they don't seem completely baseless:

US military warns oil output may dip causing massive shortages by 2015 | Business | The Guardian

As for the latest shale fan, who probably didn't actually read the thread, if you believe strip mining our own Rocky Mountains for a disgusting energy source that yields a 2:1 EROEI and honestly believe that will save us and get us off Middle Eastern imports, you really have no idea what you're talking about.

Do better.

The Chart says the source right on the bottom. Source: Energy Information Administration

The Chart & Info posted above are from this Oilwatch Monthly - August 2010.pdf file on page 2 right hand side.

 

[JiggsCasey]

The Chart says the source right on the bottom. Source: Energy Information Administration

The Chart & Info posted above are from this Oilwatch Monthly - August 2010.pdf file on page 2 right hand side.

Just as I thought. Now look at Chart 2 to the left, and notice what accounts for that total increase: Liquid fuels!!!!

In July 2010 world production of all liquid fuels increased by 860,000 b/d from June according to the latest fgures of the International Energy Agency (IEA). Resulting in total world liquid fuels production of 87.22 million b/d.

Definitions

Crude Oil, petroleum found in liquid and semi
liquid form including deepsea oil and
lease condensates.

Liquids, all forms of liquid fuels including
conventional, heavy, and extra heavy oil,
oil shale, oil sands, natural gas liquids, lease
condensates, gas-to-liquids, coal-to-liquids,
and biofuels.

In other words, light crude production continues to flatline or drop, while the difference (in order to meet ever-growing demand) is made up by ever dirtier, far-less efficient HEAVIER oil, like sands and shale. What's funny is that you think you've found something and are patting yourself on the back again, when in fact what you've provided actually SUPPORTS my thesis even further.

You're horrible at this.

 

[elam]

Ok........Drudge this morning said, "$87.00/barrel"

I still recall reading that the rough and dirty extraction price with oil shale was between $80-$90.00/barrel.

Now we have here in the USA an estimated 2.5 trillion barrels of oil locked up in oil shale. So we open-up a few "token" off-shore areas by the President, and everyone is suppose to be wetting their collective pants that we are on the way to energy independence from OPEC. Oh........give me a break! Are the "sheep" really buying into this?

This 2.5 trillion barrels far-exceeds the total oil reserves of the Middle East, if not Saudi Arabia alone.

Now if we have extraction prices from shale at the above prices, you and I know that technology/research will not stop there, but there should be coming down the pipe, even cheaper methods of extraction.

Why, oh why, isn't this administration "green lighting" this area of energy potential with gusto.

Ethanol is a joke! If we were to do as Brazil and start agri-farming, grow-able land to produce Ethanol, we would have to use every inch/acre of present land that is producing edible crops for our nation. We don't have sugar cane climate here in the U.S.. Brazil is close to the equator, and is very humid/tropical, which is ideal for high-yield ethanol crops.

Sure, theres nothing wrong with bio-fuels......but they can't make but a golf ball sized dent in our energy consumption/needs. There's only so much fast food/restaurant oil to be had, and the way the government is going after fatting foods to save our collective lives the amount of useable cooking oils will not expand with this economy IMO.
*****
Why Not Nuke Plants?: They're one heck of a lot cleaner than the cleanest coal burning plants. Interestingly, I listened to a notable scientist, Dr. Bill Wattenberg, who has worked and Livermore Labs in weapons research, and also has been an independent inventer, and has been contracted by both state and Federal Gov, agencies to help "invent" ASAP methods/devices during emergency situations such as, temporary bridge replacements, mine sweeping equipment......etc, etc...

Wattenberg had emphatically said, over the years, that the amount of radioactive isotopes emitted into the atmosphere by even clean coal burning power plants is so immense, and health/dangerous.

Wattenberg has been an nuke power plant advocate for years, and has tried and tried to fight the panic, and b.s. poured out by the "left" and "green" wingnuts about the horrors of nuclear power.

France: They are on their merry way to independence from OPEC. Roughly 70% of Frances' electric power comes from nuke power plants. France actually produces an excess of electicity, and is able to sell it off to other countrys' grids. I also understand that France is stockpiling hydrogen, as their excess electricity allows them to "crack" H2O, into hyrogen gas.
******
Us or the U.S.. Our President, gave in to Harry Reid, and closed Yucca Mountain. This was a major multi$$$$$$ project that was designed to store our nations' spent nuclear fuels with a margin of safety that far exceeded the risks. Yucca Mountain was geologically studied for dangerous seismic faults that could rupture storage and cause dangerous ground water leakage of nuclear or hot wastes.

Containerization of spent fuels is so-beyond adequate, as the containers will far exceed the spent half-lives of these materials. Never the less, the wingnut, greenie crowd still holds sway over a certain major political party in our country, and I mean major lobbying pressure probably second to none. As a result, U.S. energy independence is held hostage to archaic, 19th century mentality/dreams........that "utopia" for all Americans is the destruction of industrialization, and the adoption of an agrarian mentality, and culture.

I'm an idealist........but I"m also a realist. We have a party/administration in power that has a skewed, and illogical mentality and outlook on the future of this country. Nothing they propose encourages entrepreneurialism, but in fact hinders or destroys it.

Entrepreneurialism is the unspoken swear word of this administration..........................Unless it fits into their illogical paradigm of American life according to their bible.

I live in Silicon Valley, the birth place of R&D on the nano-scale like no other place in our country. What is it now? It is empty parking lots..........building for lease banners everywhere.

Tech support goes to India now. For years here in Silicon Valley we had an incredible influx of Indian Nationals who were highly educated computer engineers for the most-part. Many gained legal citizenship, and have continued to contribute to our economy with hard working ethics...........But............now even our R&D is being jobbed-out to faraway India and other parts of the world. Manufacturing of hardware has gone to the far reaches of the world. That's ok...........but...........R&D??? That's the bread and butter of "entrepreneurialism"!

We were a country of innovation! So what's our claim to fame now? Oh we make "negative sum gain" windmills, and residential solar panels. Big whoopee! We are the home of Tesla motors that only the "Sean Penns" of the world can afford.

Oh..............I could go on and on and on.............
********

Why does the administration have to green light it? What are the ecological issues?

 

[Big Fitz]

ight crude production continues to flatline or drop

And oil comes from nothign else.... Well.. not TRUE oil. That other stuff isn't really true.

The "No True Scotsman" argument comes to Peak Oil.

 

[Samson]

ight crude production continues to flatline or drop

And oil comes from nothign else.... Well.. not TRUE oil. That other stuff isn't really true.

The "No True Scotsman" argument comes to Peak Oil.

True oil only comes from Quart Sized Cans.

 

[Eightball]

Ok........Drudge this morning said, "$87.00/barrel"

I still recall reading that the rough and dirty extraction price with oil shale was between $80-$90.00/barrel.

Now we have here in the USA an estimated 2.5 trillion barrels of oil locked up in oil shale. So we open-up a few "token" off-shore areas by the President, and everyone is suppose to be wetting their collective pants that we are on the way to energy independence from OPEC. Oh........give me a break! Are the "sheep" really buying into this?

This 2.5 trillion barrels far-exceeds the total oil reserves of the Middle East, if not Saudi Arabia alone.

Now if we have extraction prices from shale at the above prices, you and I know that technology/research will not stop there, but there should be coming down the pipe, even cheaper methods of extraction.

Why, oh why, isn't this administration "green lighting" this area of energy potential with gusto.

Ethanol is a joke! If we were to do as Brazil and start agri-farming, grow-able land to produce Ethanol, we would have to use every inch/acre of present land that is producing edible crops for our nation. We don't have sugar cane climate here in the U.S.. Brazil is close to the equator, and is very humid/tropical, which is ideal for high-yield ethanol crops.

Sure, theres nothing wrong with bio-fuels......but they can't make but a golf ball sized dent in our energy consumption/needs. There's only so much fast food/restaurant oil to be had, and the way the government is going after fatting foods to save our collective lives the amount of useable cooking oils will not expand with this economy IMO.
*****
Why Not Nuke Plants?: They're one heck of a lot cleaner than the cleanest coal burning plants. Interestingly, I listened to a notable scientist, Dr. Bill Wattenberg, who has worked and Livermore Labs in weapons research, and also has been an independent inventer, and has been contracted by both state and Federal Gov, agencies to help "invent" ASAP methods/devices during emergency situations such as, temporary bridge replacements, mine sweeping equipment......etc, etc...

Wattenberg had emphatically said, over the years, that the amount of radioactive isotopes emitted into the atmosphere by even clean coal burning power plants is so immense, and health/dangerous.

Wattenberg has been an nuke power plant advocate for years, and has tried and tried to fight the panic, and b.s. poured out by the "left" and "green" wingnuts about the horrors of nuclear power.

France: They are on their merry way to independence from OPEC. Roughly 70% of Frances' electric power comes from nuke power plants. France actually produces an excess of electicity, and is able to sell it off to other countrys' grids. I also understand that France is stockpiling hydrogen, as their excess electricity allows them to "crack" H2O, into hyrogen gas.
******
Us or the U.S.. Our President, gave in to Harry Reid, and closed Yucca Mountain. This was a major multi$$$$$$ project that was designed to store our nations' spent nuclear fuels with a margin of safety that far exceeded the risks. Yucca Mountain was geologically studied for dangerous seismic faults that could rupture storage and cause dangerous ground water leakage of nuclear or hot wastes.

Containerization of spent fuels is so-beyond adequate, as the containers will far exceed the spent half-lives of these materials. Never the less, the wingnut, greenie crowd still holds sway over a certain major political party in our country, and I mean major lobbying pressure probably second to none. As a result, U.S. energy independence is held hostage to archaic, 19th century mentality/dreams........that "utopia" for all Americans is the destruction of industrialization, and the adoption of an agrarian mentality, and culture.

I'm an idealist........but I"m also a realist. We have a party/administration in power that has a skewed, and illogical mentality and outlook on the future of this country. Nothing they propose encourages entrepreneurialism, but in fact hinders or destroys it.

Entrepreneurialism is the unspoken swear word of this administration..........................Unless it fits into their illogical paradigm of American life according to their bible.

I live in Silicon Valley, the birth place of R&D on the nano-scale like no other place in our country. What is it now? It is empty parking lots..........building for lease banners everywhere.

Tech support goes to India now. For years here in Silicon Valley we had an incredible influx of Indian Nationals who were highly educated computer engineers for the most-part. Many gained legal citizenship, and have continued to contribute to our economy with hard working ethics...........But............now even our R&D is being jobbed-out to faraway India and other parts of the world. Manufacturing of hardware has gone to the far reaches of the world. That's ok...........but...........R&D??? That's the bread and butter of "entrepreneurialism"!

We were a country of innovation! So what's our claim to fame now? Oh we make "negative sum gain" windmills, and residential solar panels. Big whoopee! We are the home of Tesla motors that only the "Sean Penns" of the world can afford.

Oh..............I could go on and on and on.............
********

Why does the administration have to green light it? What are the ecological issues?

Good question! Why does the Fed have to stick their grimy big nose in this? Answer: Power, control, manipulation,..........

 

[Steerpike]

All I know is this: We have one friggin pile of fuel sitting here on our continent in the form of oil locked in a shale matrix, and it is extractable at $80.00-90.00/barrel!!!

We have more energy locked up in oil shale than all of Saudi Arabia and the other oil mongols of the Middle East combined.

Canada has a friggin pile of oil locked in oil sands too. It's' time we really get serious about exploiting this.

The more we become independent of OPEC cutting off our "nards" when they don't like what we do geo-politically, then we are in the driver's seat.

Just remember the good old 70's OPEC oil embargo......It wasn't a pretty.

One problem I see here - doesn't it take a hell of a lot of water to get that oil out? My question about this is how feasible is it to get all that oil. If it makes sense and can be done reasonably, then there's no reason not to do it.

 

[Eightball]

All I know is this: We have one friggin pile of fuel sitting here on our continent in the form of oil locked in a shale matrix, and it is extractable at $80.00-90.00/barrel!!!

We have more energy locked up in oil shale than all of Saudi Arabia and the other oil mongols of the Middle East combined.

Canada has a friggin pile of oil locked in oil sands too. It's' time we really get serious about exploiting this.

The more we become independent of OPEC cutting off our "nards" when they don't like what we do geo-politically, then we are in the driver's seat.

Just remember the good old 70's OPEC oil embargo......It wasn't a pretty.

One problem I see here - doesn't it take a hell of a lot of water to get that oil out? My question about this is how feasible is it to get all that oil. If it makes sense and can be done reasonably, then there's no reason not to do it.

You make too much sense! And you know how that "miffs" politicians.

Even if current underground crude drops into the $70.00's range, it's a no-brainer that crude extraction from a rock/shale matix is only going to get cheaper as technology, and volume of production increase.

So if we have $80.-90./barrel for current Shale Oil extraction pricing, then we are looking at some good numbers to start with.

Also with this 2.5 trillion barrel potential, we would have a way of stabilizing the price of U.S. fuel to private and commercial consumers. A OPEC boycott or even Israel bombing the "bejeezers" out of Iran, wouldn't interupt our energy source.

Result: Geo-Politics conducted by the U.S. would be less vunerable to economic blackmail by OPEC or other countries that have alignment with OPEC producers.
*******

 

[KissMy]

Bloomberg: Hedge Funds Cut Gasoline Bets Most Since 2006

Stockpiles of distillate fuel, which include diesel and heating oil, jumped to their highest levels since 1983, climbing 1.07 million barrels to 174.2 million.

Inventories of crude and fuel products rose to 1.13 billion barrels last week, the highest level since the Energy Department began keeping combined weekly data in January 1990, according to an Aug. 18 report.

 

[Eightball]

Bloomberg: Hedge Funds Cut Gasoline Bets Most Since 2006

Stockpiles of distillate fuel, which include diesel and heating oil, jumped to their highest levels since 1983, climbing 1.07 million barrels to 174.2 million.

Inventories of crude and fuel products rose to 1.13 billion barrels last week, the highest level since the Energy Department began keeping combined weekly data in January 1990, according to an Aug. 18 report.

Energy department just announced that they expect about a 15 cent drop/gallon.

I think that supports the posters who said that we have generous stockpiles of fuel right now..........I.E. We are not using fuel at a break neck pace at all.

Surplus fuel, or Crude will drive down the market price.......
********
Never the less, we must gain more independence from OPEC and it's cohorts and get this domestic shale oil production in high gear.

Also, we must not just talk "nuke plants" but make a real effort to get some nuke plants online. Sadly they take years from initial planning to actual working plants. We can thank our greenie friends here in the U.S. for creating outrageous scare stories/tactics with the U.S. public about the horrific dangers of Nuclear power.

Funny, how the one nation that had A-bombs used on it, has embraced nuke power plants with much gusto.

France is smarting-up faster than us and has about 70% of their electric grid from nuke power. France is determined to get off the OPEC teat.

 

[KissMy]

Black stuff in a green land

After decades of searching, evidence of oil is found off the coast of Greenland... The United States Geological Survey suggest the seabed between Greenland and Canada holds a total of 17 billion barrels.

 

[Eightball]

Black stuff in a green land

After decades of searching, evidence of oil is found off the coast of Greenland... The United States Geological Survey suggest the seabed between Greenland and Canada holds a total of 17 billion barrels.

Now let's see what the current administration can do to keep American Companies from obtaining workable tracts of undersea land to drill for oil out there?

You do know that they are doing their darndest to drive us back to the stone age if possible.......That's not tongue and cheek either.......That is straight out of the Greenies' playbooks.

When your a one termer, it's "No holds bar'd"........Go for broke......push the old progressive agenda and then retire in 2012 sucking in $100k/per speech fees, with perpetual secret service protection, and a great pension to boot.

 

[KissMy]

Black stuff in a green land

After decades of searching, evidence of oil is found off the coast of Greenland... The United States Geological Survey suggest the seabed between Greenland and Canada holds a total of 17 billion barrels.

Now let's see what the current administration can do to keep American Companies from obtaining workable tracts of undersea land to drill for oil out there?

You do know that they are doing their darndest to drive us back to the stone age if possible.......That's not tongue and cheek either.......That is straight out of the Greenies' playbooks.

When your a one termer, it's "No holds bar'd"........Go for broke......push the old progressive agenda and then retire in 2012 sucking in $100k/per speech fees, with perpetual secret service protection, and a great pension to boot.

Greenpeace claims to have shut down Greenland oil well

The envvironmental group said four expert climbers in inflatable speedboats had evaded the Danish navy to climb up the inside of the Cairn Energy oil rig off Greenland.

The four campaigners are now hanging from the rig 15m above the icy Arctic ocean in tents suspended from ropes, halting its drilling operation, Greenpeace said.

 

[Eightball]

Black stuff in a green land

Now let's see what the current administration can do to keep American Companies from obtaining workable tracts of undersea land to drill for oil out there?

You do know that they are doing their darndest to drive us back to the stone age if possible.......That's not tongue and cheek either.......That is straight out of the Greenies' playbooks.

When your a one termer, it's "No holds bar'd"........Go for broke......push the old progressive agenda and then retire in 2012 sucking in $100k/per speech fees, with perpetual secret service protection, and a great pension to boot.

Greenpeace claims to have shut down Greenland oil well

The envvironmental group said four expert climbers in inflatable speedboats had evaded the Danish navy to climb up the inside of the Cairn Energy oil rig off Greenland.

The four campaigners are now hanging from the rig 15m above the icy Arctic ocean in tents suspended from ropes, halting its drilling operation, Greenpeace said.

As Yoda would say......."Idiots they are."...

 

[JiggsCasey]

Black stuff in a green land

After decades of searching, evidence of oil is found off the coast of Greenland... The United States Geological Survey suggest the seabed between Greenland and Canada holds a total of 17 billion barrels.

Now let's see what the current administration can do to keep American Companies from obtaining workable tracts of undersea land to drill for oil out there?

You do know that they are doing their darndest to drive us back to the stone age if possible.......That's not tongue and cheek either.......That is straight out of the Greenies' playbooks.

When your a one termer, it's "No holds bar'd"........Go for broke......push the old progressive agenda and then retire in 2012 sucking in $100k/per speech fees, with perpetual secret service protection, and a great pension to boot.

LOL.... You guys act like such reactionary tools, desperate for someone to blame in the face of a geological certainty. So pathetic, that a thread like this gets extrapolated into a completely irrelevant bash Obama rant. Such angry little cons.

No one is trying to "drive us back to the Stone Age," losers. Grow up. We all enjoy modern technology and medical advances, just as much as you gluttonous con men do.

Yet again, "Kissmyass" (fitting handle) keeps his argument mobile by fleeing from his previously debunked premise and providing a new kiddie pool "find" of estimated reserves, hoping it passes as "proof" that global oil depletion is a myth. His link has a lot of "could contain..." and "estimated totals of...", but no mention of proven reserves, which is all that really matters when it comes to investment. But, for the sake of argument, let's pretend that there really is 17 billion barrels under there, maybe half of which is recoverable. Heck, let's add up ALL the kiddie pools of conventional crude Kiss has smarmily referenced. ... It's still a drop in the bucket compared to what industrial nations require going forward. New discoveries are NOT keeping up with increasing demand, and are NOT offsetting current dying capacity. Period, end of story. I'm sorry. I know that's hard for some of you people who insist that if we keep throwing money at the problem, God will somehow put more oil in the ground. ... But, nope, doesn't work that way.

We need to find 4-5 Saudi Arabia's immediately just to maintain stasis for the next 10-20 years. Where are they? ... Gosh, some deep water find up near Greenland that MAY contain 17 billion barrels? Big f'ing deal.

Again I ask... WHERE is the oil, going forward? In what proven amount? How far down? At what cost to get to it? Who is promoting the find?

I can allude to 1 trillion barrels under my back yard... But if I can't prove how much is there, and the location I propose is 30 miles down, under thick bedrock and salt formations, it doesn't really matter very much, now does it? No company is going to invest.