13 Year Old Boy Getting Chemo After All

[Tinktink]

Get back to me on how emotionally developed children of 13 are, when you look at picture of yourself at thirteen and wonder what the hell you were thinking when you wore that damn Donny Osmond tee shirt that you so cherished, and thought it made you the coolest kid in school. Once you do, if you can still say that Donny Osmand fan was capable enough to make a informed decision on life or death, I may rethink my stance, not change it, but rethink it.

This anecdotal speculation is merely an excuse to sidestep consultation of the empirical research on the matter. Regardless of what your stereotypical conception of the abilities of the age group in question are, the empirical evidence indicates a converse reality.

What empirical evidence? 96 children out of billions (12/96) is enough to make a conclusion? You do understand in your over black and white mind, that no child represents another, don't you?

One more thing the research you posted included 12 children out of what billions? How did they select the children? What family dynamics were included in the study? What were their IQ's at the time?

"12 children"? This empirical analysis involved structured interview of 96 subjects. As for IQ, you'll need to understand that it's not inexorably connected to the ability to competently make informed and rational decisions about medical treatments.

Ok, 96 that still doesn't convince me to believe that interviewing 96 kids will tell all kids. IQ is a huge support in understanding and comprehension to allow someone to be completely informed on huge decisions like this.



Certainly! The earlier study of researchers Grisso and Vierling, Minors’ Consent to Treatment: A Developmental Perspective, came to a similar conclusion, the authors stating the following:



Researchers Bruce Ambuel and Julian Rappaport discovered similar results in a study intended to specifically focus on the topic of minors' competence to provide informed consent to abortion, entitled Developmental trends in adolescents' psychological and legal competence to consent to abortion. The study confirmed the fact that the rational judgment and decision making capacities of adolescents, (particularly those at or beyond mid-adolescence), were often on par with those of adults. Consider the abstract:

rational or based on fear? How many children at 13 that find themselves pregnant do you really think make a informed decision of raising or aborting the fetus, out of congnative choices verses fear or fantasy?



In a wide-ranging review of the developmental literature on adolescents’ abilities to make rational decisions about medical treatment, entitled Children And Adolescents’ Capacity To Provide Informed Consent For Participation In Research researchers Kuther and Posada noted this:

[T]he literature in developmental psychology has shown that adolescents are able to make meaningful decisions and advocates for youth have argued that researchers must respect the autonomy rights of children and adolescents.

Let's not bring in psychology. As we both know that that is the one medical field with no absolute, nor confirmed understanding of it.

What else would you like to see?

I don't need to see anything. All your links have proved nothing to me. Why, I will say it again. The field you find so much faith in, is a field that has no definate answers.

I would bet my life saving that if this kid survives the chemo and goes on to adulthood to have a life, he will most likely look back on today and say what the hell was I thinking.

If so, I'd ascribe that to an enlightened religious perspective rather than increased age.

Religious perspective? Huh? What does religion have to do with someone surviving death and appreciating it enough to think that maybe when they faced it they may have made the wrong decisions based on their lack of understanding?

 

[DavidS]

I believe the ruling sets a precedent on the road we don't want to go down.
Granted, the chemo treatment has an 80-90% sauces rate, however, other cancer survival rates are not as generous. Do we want the courts to direct medical treatment?

For minors - we want the courts to enforce the law that the parents must do everything possible to keep their children in good health. Not taking a sick boy to the doctor is child abuse.

 

[Tinktink]

I believe the ruling sets a precedent on the road we don't want to go down.
Granted, the chemo treatment has an 80-90% sauces rate, however, other cancer survival rates are not as generous. Do we want the courts to direct medical treatment?

For minors - we want the courts to enforce the law that the parents must do everything possible to keep their children in good health. Not taking a sick boy to the doctor is child abuse.

Finally someone gets it.

 

[Tinktink]

does the boy want treatment and his parents are denying treatment? if the boy does not want treatment, what gives the state the right to force treatment?

If your 13 year old didn't want the chemo treatment and you knew it gave him a 90% chance of longterm survival, would you make him go for chemo, or would you allow him to die? Parents have every right to make the decisions for their kids, so long as those decisions are reasonable. When they become unreasonable, it is up to society to step in.

And yes, I understand that we could possibly be pushing the envelope, because the argument can be made that if we allow society to step in and make the decision in this case, where does it stop? To me, it stops when it comes to life and death. If it is not a matter of life and death, then leave it alone.

Well said.

However, who, excatly, decides whats reasonable and unreasonable?

Let me ask this: What is reasonable and unreasonable to YOU?

Raises hand... oh please... let me... let me... hehe.

90 percent curablie rate... reasonable.

Possiibility to a cure with no evidence of one... unreasonable.

 

[brewerboy]

Heres where I'm mixed up on this case:

In most states, a minor gets to choose which parent they want to live with around this age, even if it involves moving out of state. A junior high school friend did the exact same in 6th grade because he wanted to live with his father.

If we allow minors that at that age, why dont they get a say in medical treatments? And I realize that I'm somewhat comparing apples to oranges here, but I think the main point is comparable.

Now, if he hadnt had a round of chemo, I'd be all behind this. However, he did and didnt like it. I think that he should have some say in what the next step should be.

But then again, I also wonder how much of this "alternative treatment" stuff is dictated by the parents.

Idk, I'm gonna have to ponder on this for awhile.

 

[Tinktink]

Heres where I'm mixed up on this case:

In most states, a minor gets to choose which parent they want to live with around this age, even if it involves moving out of state. A junior high school friend did the exact same in 6th grade because he wanted to live with his father.

If we allow minors that at that age, why dont they get a say in medical treatments? And I realize that I'm somewhat comparing apples to oranges here, but I think the main point is comparable.

Now, if he hadnt had a round of chemo, I'd be all behind this. However, he did and didnt like it. I think that he should have some say in what the next step should be.

But then again, I also wonder how much of this "alternative treatment" stuff is dictated by the parents.

Idk, I'm gonna have to ponder on this for awhile.

Ever watch the end stages of Cancer for those that don't survive? Violent vomiting and diarrea... hold no torch to it. By the time you are at the end, most of your organs are painfully dying from it. The max non lethal legal dose of Morphine still isn't enough to stop the suffering and pain. I know I once volunteered in a hospice. Do you really believe a kid of 13 or even his parents understand that? No the kid got violently sick with his first treatment and became terrified. As I would think his parents did to. Any kid is afraid of pain, most loving parents are afraid of their children suffering in pain.

Personally I wish that the judge would have ordered them to spend time at a few hopices so they can see what it is their son wil face. That very action may have given them the fortitude to to allow their son 6 treatments that were filled with violent sickeness, considering the end result may have been life verses death.

 

[brewerboy]

Heres where I'm mixed up on this case:

In most states, a minor gets to choose which parent they want to live with around this age, even if it involves moving out of state. A junior high school friend did the exact same in 6th grade because he wanted to live with his father.

If we allow minors that at that age, why dont they get a say in medical treatments? And I realize that I'm somewhat comparing apples to oranges here, but I think the main point is comparable.

Now, if he hadnt had a round of chemo, I'd be all behind this. However, he did and didnt like it. I think that he should have some say in what the next step should be.

But then again, I also wonder how much of this "alternative treatment" stuff is dictated by the parents.

Idk, I'm gonna have to ponder on this for awhile.

Ever watch the end stages of Cancer for those that don't survive? Violent vomiting and diarrea... hold no torch to it. By the time you are at the end, most of your organs are painfully dying from it. The max non lethal legal dose of Morphine still isn't enough to stop the suffering and pain. I know I once volunteered in a hospice. Do you really believe a kid of 13 or even his parents understand that? No the kid got violently sick with his first treatment and became terrified. As I would think his parents did to. Any kid is afraid of pain, most loving parents are afraid of their children suffering in pain.

Personally I wish that the judge would have ordered them to spend time at a few hopices so they can see what it is their son wil face. That very action may have given them the fortitude to to allow their son 6 treatments that were filled with violent sickeness, considering the end result may have been life verses death.

I get what you're saying, believe me I do.

I just dont see why we allow minors of this age to make huge decisions in one part of their lives, yet not another.

Idk, I'm undecided on this as I previously stated.

Dont give me too much shit

 

[Tinktink]

Heres where I'm mixed up on this case:

In most states, a minor gets to choose which parent they want to live with around this age, even if it involves moving out of state. A junior high school friend did the exact same in 6th grade because he wanted to live with his father.

If we allow minors that at that age, why dont they get a say in medical treatments? And I realize that I'm somewhat comparing apples to oranges here, but I think the main point is comparable.

Now, if he hadnt had a round of chemo, I'd be all behind this. However, he did and didnt like it. I think that he should have some say in what the next step should be.

But then again, I also wonder how much of this "alternative treatment" stuff is dictated by the parents.

Do you really get what it is I am saying. Think Like a 13 year old. Damn a dentist appointment was trauma. This kid got one treatment of chemo, and certainly didn't make it to the end results of his decision. Do you really believe that at the end stages of his Cancer that kid would't threaten and kick those that legal couldn't give him another dose of morphine?

Idk, I'm gonna have to ponder on this for awhile.

Ever watch the end stages of Cancer for those that don't survive? Violent vomiting and diarrea... hold no torch to it. By the time you are at the end, most of your organs are painfully dying from it. The max non lethal legal dose of Morphine still isn't enough to stop the suffering and pain. I know I once volunteered in a hospice. Do you really believe a kid of 13 or even his parents understand that? No the kid got violently sick with his first treatment and became terrified. As I would think his parents did to. Any kid is afraid of pain, most loving parents are afraid of their children suffering in pain.

Personally I wish that the judge would have ordered them to spend time at a few hopices so they can see what it is their son wil face. That very action may have given them the fortitude to to allow their son 6 treatments that were filled with violent sickeness, considering the end result may have been life verses death.

I get what you're saying, believe me I do.

I just dont see why we allow minors of this age to make huge decisions in one part of their lives, yet not another.

Idk, I'm undecided on this as I previously stated.

Dont give me too much shit

I wouldn't think of wrapping up my one little turd and giving it to you... to do so is to rob the planet of fertilizer...

I am confused here, you say you don't see why we allow minors of this age to make huge decisions in one part of their lives and not another. I ask what is it your are referring too?

And as to your ponder, I will bring this up again... ponder on stupid things you did at 13, and in that pondering please be honest with yourself, and tell me do you not say today... What was I thinking back then?

 

[brewerboy]

Ever watch the end stages of Cancer for those that don't survive? Violent vomiting and diarrea... hold no torch to it. By the time you are at the end, most of your organs are painfully dying from it. The max non lethal legal dose of Morphine still isn't enough to stop the suffering and pain. I know I once volunteered in a hospice. Do you really believe a kid of 13 or even his parents understand that? No the kid got violently sick with his first treatment and became terrified. As I would think his parents did to. Any kid is afraid of pain, most loving parents are afraid of their children suffering in pain.

Personally I wish that the judge would have ordered them to spend time at a few hopices so they can see what it is their son wil face. That very action may have given them the fortitude to to allow their son 6 treatments that were filled with violent sickeness, considering the end result may have been life verses death.

I get what you're saying, believe me I do.

I just dont see why we allow minors of this age to make huge decisions in one part of their lives, yet not another.

Idk, I'm undecided on this as I previously stated.

Dont give me too much shit

I wouldn't think of wrapping up my one little turd and giving it to you... to do so is to rob the planet of fertilizer...

I am confused here, you say you don't see why we allow minors of this age to make huge decisions in one part of their lives and not another. I ask what is it your are referring too?

And as to your ponder, I will bring this up again... ponder on stupid things you did at 13, and in that pondering please be honest with yourself, and tell me do you not say today... What was I thinking back then?

What I'm referring to is my previous example of how in most states, kids around that age are able to choose which parent they want to live with in the case of divorces, but yet dont have a say when it comes to their health? Now its your turn to be honest, dont you see that to be at least somewhat contradicting?

And yes, if I was given free reign to make my own decisions (in any aspect of life) at 13, theres no telling where I'd be and in what condition. Thank God I didnt have that ability. Thanks Mom, Thanks Dad!

 

[Tinktink]

I get what you're saying, believe me I do.

I just dont see why we allow minors of this age to make huge decisions in one part of their lives, yet not another.

Idk, I'm undecided on this as I previously stated.

Dont give me too much shit

I wouldn't think of wrapping up my one little turd and giving it to you... to do so is to rob the planet of fertilizer...

I am confused here, you say you don't see why we allow minors of this age to make huge decisions in one part of their lives and not another. I ask what is it your are referring too?

And as to your ponder, I will bring this up again... ponder on stupid things you did at 13, and in that pondering please be honest with yourself, and tell me do you not say today... What was I thinking back then?

What I'm referring to is my previous example of how in most states, kids around that age are able to choose which parent they want to live with in the case of divorces, but yet dont have a say when it comes to their health? Now its your turn to be honest, dont you see that to be at least somewhat contradicting?

And yes, if I was given free reign to make my own decisions (in any aspect of life) at 13, theres no telling where I'd be and in what condition. Thank God I didnt have that ability. Thanks Mom, Thanks Dad!

O.K... I see what it is you are saying. But I have to ask when a kid is left to chose which parent they feel safer with, is that choice as final as one of life or death?

 

[brewerboy]

I wouldn't think of wrapping up my one little turd and giving it to you... to do so is to rob the planet of fertilizer...

I am confused here, you say you don't see why we allow minors of this age to make huge decisions in one part of their lives and not another. I ask what is it your are referring too?

And as to your ponder, I will bring this up again... ponder on stupid things you did at 13, and in that pondering please be honest with yourself, and tell me do you not say today... What was I thinking back then?

What I'm referring to is my previous example of how in most states, kids around that age are able to choose which parent they want to live with in the case of divorces, but yet dont have a say when it comes to their health? Now its your turn to be honest, dont you see that to be at least somewhat contradicting?

And yes, if I was given free reign to make my own decisions (in any aspect of life) at 13, theres no telling where I'd be and in what condition. Thank God I didnt have that ability. Thanks Mom, Thanks Dad!

O.K... I see what it is you are saying. But I have to ask when a kid is left to chose which parent they feel safer with, is that choice as final as one of life or death?

Like I said the first time I brought that up, I see how its comparing apples and oranges to a certain degree, but I think legally, the two go should go hand and hand.

 

[Tinktink]

What I'm referring to is my previous example of how in most states, kids around that age are able to choose which parent they want to live with in the case of divorces, but yet dont have a say when it comes to their health? Now its your turn to be honest, dont you see that to be at least somewhat contradicting?

And yes, if I was given free reign to make my own decisions (in any aspect of life) at 13, theres no telling where I'd be and in what condition. Thank God I didnt have that ability. Thanks Mom, Thanks Dad!

O.K... I see what it is you are saying. But I have to ask when a kid is left to chose which parent they feel safer with, is that choice as final as one of life or death?

Like I said the first time I brought that up, I see how its comparing apples and oranges to a certain degree, but I think legally, the two go should go hand and hand.

Don't confuse me here... comparing apples to oranges is illogical. A child wanting to live with the parent who they feel the safest with, doesn't even compare to a child having to decide life or death issues.

I think that where you confuse me... stop it.

 

[Amanda]

I don't see what's wrong with letting this kid and/or his parents make the decision they think is right. Would he suffer? Maybe... probably. Would he die? Maybe... probably. So what? I think self determination is more important than anything else. What's it to anyone else if he suffers or dies? If that's their decision, especially if based on religious principles, I think that needs to be honored.

 

[Tinktink]

I don't see what's wrong with letting this kid and/or his parents make the decision they think is right. Would he suffer? Maybe... probably. Would he die? Maybe... probably. So what? I think self determination is more important than anything else. What's it to anyone else if he suffers or dies? If that's their decision, especially if based on religious principles, I think that needs to be honored.

Why? Can you absoutley with no doubt prove that religion is real? If your god wanted folks to die at the hands of diseases? Why the fuck did your god create folks to spend a life time seeking to cure those damn diseases? Oh wait according to folks like you... satan created doctors... because Gods will was to give the disease so folks can die. It was Satan that created doctors and gave them the knowledge to fight the diseases your god sought to create.

You honor Satan all you want... I chose to honor otherwise.

Fundies... no logiic.

 

[Amanda]

I don't see what's wrong with letting this kid and/or his parents make the decision they think is right. Would he suffer? Maybe... probably. Would he die? Maybe... probably. So what? I think self determination is more important than anything else. What's it to anyone else if he suffers or dies? If that's their decision, especially if based on religious principles, I think that needs to be honored.

Why? Can you absoutley with no doubt prove that religion is real? If your god wanted folks to die at the hands of diseases? Why the fuck did your god create folks to spend a life time seeking to cure those damn diseases? Oh wait according to folks like you... satan created doctors... because Gods will was to give the disease so folks can die. It was Satan that created doctors and gave them the knowledge to fight the diseases your god sought to create.

You honor Satan all you want... I chose to honor otherwise.

Fundies... no logiic.

Oh Sweet baby Jesus... what have you been here like 10 minutes?

I'm hardly a "fundie".

I think people should be allowed to self determine. I think we all lose with a Nanny state. You can disagree and that's fine, but at least *try* to understand who you're talking to. Otherwise you're just going to continue to make an ass of yourself.

 

[brewerboy]

O.K... I see what it is you are saying. But I have to ask when a kid is left to chose which parent they feel safer with, is that choice as final as one of life or death?

Like I said the first time I brought that up, I see how its comparing apples and oranges to a certain degree, but I think legally, the two go should go hand and hand.

Don't confuse me here... comparing apples to oranges is illogical. A child wanting to live with the parent who they feel the safest with, doesn't even compare to a child having to decide life or death issues.

I think that where you confuse me... stop it.

Again, I see where you're coming from, but legally I think the two situations are similiar.

I'll try to refrain from the whole confusing bit in the future

 

[Ravi]

I hope they let him smoke weed to alleviate the nausea.

 

[Zoom-boing]

Danny Hauser.com - The Story, Chemotherapy or Natural Remedy?

 

[Tinktink]

.

Oh Sweet baby Jesus... what have you been here like 10 minutes?

I'm hardly a "fundie".

I think people should be allowed to self determine. I think we all lose with a Nanny state. You can disagree and that's fine, but at least *try* to understand who you're talking to. Otherwise you're just going to continue to make an ass of yourself.

More like 12. So you are not a fundie, but you sure sounded like one when you stated this - "If that's their decision, especially if based on religious principles, I think that needs to be honored."

If society adhired to that statement you made, religious cults would be granted the privledge to have sex with kids, considering religious principals need to be honored. Now that being said, this kid is 13, has a learning disability and can't read. Does he truly have the capacity to make a informed decision on his life, like you and I?

 

[Amanda]

Oh Sweet baby Jesus... what have you been here like 10 minutes?

I'm hardly a "fundie".

I think people should be allowed to self determine. I think we all lose with a Nanny state. You can disagree and that's fine, but at least *try* to understand who you're talking to. Otherwise you're just going to continue to make an ass of yourself.

More like 12. So you are not a fundie, but you sure sounded like one when you stated this - "If that's their decision, especially if based on religious principles, I think that needs to be honored."

If society adhired to that statement you made, religious cults would be granted the privledge to have sex with kids, considering religious principals need to be honored. Now that being said, this kid is 13, has a learning disability and can't read. Does he truly have the capacity to make a informed decision on his life, like you and I?

I think religion is important. I don't agree with the practices of all religions or approve of what everyone does, but I don't think it's fair to dictate to them that what they are doing is wrong. I understand where you're coming from, but you seem to be looking at an extreme and wanting to make rules based on that being normal. The way I see it at the other end (taking your position and running with it to extremes) there are those that would have us just hand over our children to state care when they're born. I think that scenario is pretty scary, but I can't imagine trying to make the rules as if that's what everyone on your side of the fence wanted.