12/16/44 worst military intelligence failure in US history

[whitehall]

Allies were taking a break and rumors were rampant about "home for Christmas 1944". Ike was attending a series of Christmas parties and as far as the U.S. and Brit military leadership was concerned the War was over.

 

[harmonica]

....I would rate Korean War Nov 1950 when the Chinese attacked --TWO times--as the worst intel failures
---the second time a whole Corps was thrown off the peninsula, and the Eighth Army taking an a$$ whipping
---this after the Chinese had already attacked before
...Mac still didn't think the Chinese were a threat--after the Chinese attacked the first time when they gave some Army units a big bloody nose

in the Bulge the Germans did a fantastic job of covering their forces, radio traffic, etc.....they hit a ''weak'' area---so the failure looked bigger than it actually was
....attack in winter for both sides:
less daylight--making movements much slower
cold conditions making everything slower:
---refueling, rearming, patrolling, repairing, vehicles slower, ---everything slower
hilly/broken terrain--making movement slower
poor weather hindering Allied airpower--but also the Germans
defense is easier

part of the Germans hit the 28th division which had just been hurt bad in the Hurtgen Forest

 

[miketx]

We must figure out how this can be blamed on Trump so he can be indicted for it.

 

[whitehall]

....I would rate Korean War Nov 1950 when the Chinese attacked --TWO times--as the worst intel failures
---the second time a whole Corps was thrown off the peninsula, and the Eighth Army taking an a$$ whipping
---this after the Chinese had already attacked before
...Mac still didn't think the Chinese were a threat--after the Chinese attacked the first time when they gave some Army units a big bloody nose

in the Bulge the Germans did a fantastic job of covering their forces, radio traffic, etc.....they hit a ''weak'' area---so the failure looked bigger than it actually was
....attack in winter for both sides:
less daylight--making movements much slower
cold conditions making everything slower:
---refueling, rearming, patrolling, repairing, vehicles slower, ---everything slower
hilly/broken terrain--making movement slower
poor weather hindering Allied airpower--but also the Germans
defense is easier

part of the Germans hit the 28th division which had just been hurt bad in the Hurtgen Forest

Good point but NK's invasion of south Korea was a CIA failure while the Bulge was an example of criminal negligence by the military. The political propaganda spin focused on General McAuliffe's heroic stand at Bastogne rather than the reality of losing 20,000 Troops in a month. Ike should have been relieved of duty but FDR was dying and probably incompetent, the media turned Patton into a clown and COS Marshall had never been in combat so they pretended that the Bulge was really a victory for the Allies.

 

[harmonica]

....I would rate Korean War Nov 1950 when the Chinese attacked --TWO times--as the worst intel failures
---the second time a whole Corps was thrown off the peninsula, and the Eighth Army taking an a$$ whipping
---this after the Chinese had already attacked before
...Mac still didn't think the Chinese were a threat--after the Chinese attacked the first time when they gave some Army units a big bloody nose

in the Bulge the Germans did a fantastic job of covering their forces, radio traffic, etc.....they hit a ''weak'' area---so the failure looked bigger than it actually was
....attack in winter for both sides:
less daylight--making movements much slower
cold conditions making everything slower:
---refueling, rearming, patrolling, repairing, vehicles slower, ---everything slower
hilly/broken terrain--making movement slower
poor weather hindering Allied airpower--but also the Germans
defense is easier

part of the Germans hit the 28th division which had just been hurt bad in the Hurtgen Forest

Good point but NK's invasion of south Korea was a CIA failure while the Bulge was an example of criminal negligence by the military. The political propaganda spin focused on General McAuliffe's heroic stand at Bastogne rather than the reality of losing 20,000 Troops in a month. Ike should have been relieved of duty but FDR was dying and probably incompetent, the media turned Patton into a clown and COS Marshall had never been in combat so they pretended that the Bulge was really a victory for the Allies.

....yes, the US had the troops in Korea, and material strength, but in many cases did not deploy tactically--as we see East of Chosin.--and they had a lot of SKoreans in the US units East of Chosin....plus they had air cover--which the USMC greatly used to their advantage for supply as well as CAS
....where as at the Bulge, the US units were spread very thin, and the Germans had more tanks/men/ etc at specific battles....
...we see how whole armies can be ''missed''/''not seen''

 

[whitehall]

The Bulge units were spread thin due to the rumors that the war was over. The rare Army Infantry front line units must have heard the rumbling of tanks but Ike was enjoying the perks of a General officer and what passed for military intelligence was probably passed out in the nearest French village.

 

[IsaacNewton]

The allied leaders knew Germany was near it's end and got complacent, understandably so. It was only a bulge in the front lines that the full might of Germany could muster, then it was quickly pushed back and that was the end of any thought Germany had of an offensive. The war ended six months later.

In the end it didn't matter, Germany had no chance which is what brought about the complacency in the area the Battle of the Bulge took place.

 

[harmonica]

The Bulge units were spread thin due to the rumors that the war was over. The rare Army Infantry front line units must have heard the rumbling of tanks but Ike was enjoying the perks of a General officer and what passed for military intelligence was probably passed out in the nearest French village.

I thought they were spread thin, because:
1. the Allies didn't have enough armies to cover the whole front--so the Ardennes got the least units--being hilly, etc
...a. the units in the Ardennes didn't have enough men to cover the front as per standard tactics of:

....assignment of a front 4-5 miles to a division, the 28th ID was told to settle down along a vast stretch of 28 miles

the general [ Middleton--VIII Corps CO ] ...had been ordered to hold no less than 85 miles [ of the front ]

the exceptional situation made any defense in depth impossible

Those Who Hold Bastogne ...P Schrijvers

as usual at this time of year, I read the Bulge books.....I started in 1977 reading about it
got 2 here and getting some more

No Greater Valor right here on the end table has a chapter titled ''A Massive Intelligence Failure''
I will start that this weekend.....looks very interesting...

 

[whitehall]

The Bulge units were spread thin due to the rumors that the war was over. The rare Army Infantry front line units must have heard the rumbling of tanks but Ike was enjoying the perks of a General officer and what passed for military intelligence was probably passed out in the nearest French village.

I thought they were spread thin, because:
1. the Allies didn't have enough armies to cover the whole front--so the Ardennes got the least units--being hilly, etc
...a. the units in the Ardennes didn't have enough men to cover the front as per standard tactics of:

....assignment of a front 4-5 miles to a division, the 28th ID was told to settle down along a vast stretch of 28 miles

the general [ Middleton--VIII Corps CO ] ...had been ordered to hold no less than 85 miles [ of the front ]

the exceptional situation made any defense in depth impossible

Those Who Hold Bastogne ...P Schrijvers

as usual at this time of year, I read the Bulge books.....I started in 1977 reading about it
got 2 here and getting some more

No Greater Valor right here on the end table has a chapter titled ''A Massive Intelligence Failure''
I will start that this weekend.....looks very interesting...

Rumor has it that General McAuliffe actually said "fuck you" rather than the much celebrated "nuts" that the media spin propaganda thought would be more proper for U.S. citizens in the 40's to digest.

 

[harmonica]

The Bulge units were spread thin due to the rumors that the war was over. The rare Army Infantry front line units must have heard the rumbling of tanks but Ike was enjoying the perks of a General officer and what passed for military intelligence was probably passed out in the nearest French village.

I thought they were spread thin, because:
1. the Allies didn't have enough armies to cover the whole front--so the Ardennes got the least units--being hilly, etc
...a. the units in the Ardennes didn't have enough men to cover the front as per standard tactics of:

....assignment of a front 4-5 miles to a division, the 28th ID was told to settle down along a vast stretch of 28 miles

the general [ Middleton--VIII Corps CO ] ...had been ordered to hold no less than 85 miles [ of the front ]

the exceptional situation made any defense in depth impossible

Those Who Hold Bastogne ...P Schrijvers

as usual at this time of year, I read the Bulge books.....I started in 1977 reading about it
got 2 here and getting some more

No Greater Valor right here on the end table has a chapter titled ''A Massive Intelligence Failure''
I will start that this weekend.....looks very interesting...

Rumor has it that General McAuliffe actually said "fuck you" rather than the much celebrated "nuts" that the media spin propaganda thought would be more proper for U.S-. citizens in the 40's to digest.

I know when I was in the military, we used the F word more than civilians--back then!!...mid 80s
I would like to know if the military used it that much in the 40s--I would think the civilians would not have?

 

[whitehall]

Germans were in a hurry to get to the coast and refuel and they didn't have time to deal with McAuliffe's holdouts at Bastogne so the FDR administration which officially controlled the media created a hero and turned McAuliffe's pathetic resistance into a propaganda victory while Ike's negligence and the 20,000 Allied KIA's in a month were virtually forgotten.

 

[harmonica]

Germans were in a hurry to get to the coast and refuel and they didn't have time to deal with McAuliffe's holdouts at Bastogne so the FDR administration which officially controlled the media created a hero and turned McAuliffe's pathetic resistance into a propaganda victory while Ike's negligence and the 20,000 Allied KIA's in a month were virtually forgotten.

the Germans couldn't get to the coast..maybe with one vehicle
holding Bastogne was no picnic...it was extremely cold, ..they were surrounded, ...
the small villages east and just outside of Bastogne were held long enough at great cost in lives for the main defenses to be deployed
..even though they had some tank units at Bastogne, the 101st was an airborne division--a ''light'' division....they traveled in open trucks for many miles, just to get there---freezing, uncomfortable, etc
..it wasn't ''pathetic'' resistance--if they hadn't held Bastogne, the battle would've lasted much longer with more casualties for the US..

 

[whitehall]

Not much sense pursuing this topic with someone who reminds us that Bastogne was "extremely cold".

 

[hoosier88]

Allies were taking a break and rumors were rampant about "home for Christmas 1944". Ike was attending a series of Christmas parties and as far as the U.S. and Brit military leadership was concerned the War was over.

The German Battle of the Bulge preparations & movement orders & personnel assignments & routing & depots - were all kept off the Enigma & radio & telegraph & wire systems altogether. Orders were passed by paper by couriers, or in person. Thus Bletchley Park was blinded - there was no traffic to analyze nor decode.

This is all known material - see any good history of Enigma intercepts & decrypts. & of course, once the weather cleared in the Bulge, our air forces savaged any German forces that remained in the pocket. If the Allied forces @ the sac mouth had moved more quickly, we could have ended the war sooner.

 

[whitehall]

You can't dismiss an intelligence failure with the incredible and laughable claim that the Germans "were passing orders by couriers". The plain hard fact is that whatever passed for American and Allied military intelligence was probably passed out cold in the nearest French village along with most of Ike's staff that fell for the rumors of "home for Christmas". .

 

[regent]

An aside. I wonder How many arguments ensued because of the song, "I'll Be Home For Christmas"? I remember one GI saying "They wouldn't be allowed to put out that song if we weren't going home,"

 

[hoosier88]

....I would rate Korean War Nov 1950 when the Chinese attacked --TWO times--as the worst intel failures
---the second time a whole Corps was thrown off the peninsula, and the Eighth Army taking an a$$ whipping
---this after the Chinese had already attacked before
...Mac still didn't think the Chinese were a threat--after the Chinese attacked the first time when they gave some Army units a big bloody nose

in the Bulge the Germans did a fantastic job of covering their forces, radio traffic, etc.....they hit a ''weak'' area---so the failure looked bigger than it actually was
....attack in winter for both sides:
less daylight--making movements much slower
cold conditions making everything slower:
---refueling, rearming, patrolling, repairing, vehicles slower, ---everything slower
hilly/broken terrain--making movement slower
poor weather hindering Allied airpower--but also the Germans
defense is easier

part of the Germans hit the 28th division which had just been hurt bad in the Hurtgen Forest

Good point but NK's invasion of south Korea was a CIA failure while the Bulge was an example of criminal negligence by the military. The political propaganda spin focused on General McAuliffe's heroic stand at Bastogne rather than the reality of losing 20,000 Troops in a month. Ike should have been relieved of duty but FDR was dying and probably incompetent, the media turned Patton into a clown and COS Marshall had never been in combat so they pretended that the Bulge was really a victory for the Allies.

Marshall had been in combat - in the Philippines & WWI - see George Marshall - Wikipedia
Marshall rose to fame on his training, instruction & planning abilities. He didn't command large armies - but then, the US didn't have large armies up until WWI.

The one who truly lacked combat experience was Eisenhower - although he requested combat duty (Philippines & WWI), he also rose on training, instruction & planning. Eisenhower was twitted a lot by Montgomery in the ETO - for that lack of combat experience.

 

[hoosier88]

You can't dismiss an intelligence failure with the incredible and laughable claim that the Germans "were passing orders by couriers". The plain hard fact is that whatever passed for American and Allied military intelligence was probably passed out cold in the nearest French village along with most of Ike's staff that fell for the rumors of "home for Christmas". .

The Bulge wasn't an Allied intel failure, it was a coup by the Germany military, who must have suspected that Enigma had been penetrated. Thus their countermeasures. I suggest reading:
Enigma : the battle for the code [book] / Hugh Sebag-Montefiore.
Subjects
Enigma cipher system -- History.

• World War, 1939-1945 -- Cryptography.

& of course the Bulge was fought in Luxembourg, & parts of Belgium & France.

 

[harmonica]

....I would rate Korean War Nov 1950 when the Chinese attacked --TWO times--as the worst intel failures
---the second time a whole Corps was thrown off the peninsula, and the Eighth Army taking an a$$ whipping
---this after the Chinese had already attacked before
...Mac still didn't think the Chinese were a threat--after the Chinese attacked the first time when they gave some Army units a big bloody nose

in the Bulge the Germans did a fantastic job of covering their forces, radio traffic, etc.....they hit a ''weak'' area---so the failure looked bigger than it actually was
....attack in winter for both sides:
less daylight--making movements much slower
cold conditions making everything slower:
---refueling, rearming, patrolling, repairing, vehicles slower, ---everything slower
hilly/broken terrain--making movement slower
poor weather hindering Allied airpower--but also the Germans
defense is easier

part of the Germans hit the 28th division which had just been hurt bad in the Hurtgen Forest

Good point but NK's invasion of south Korea was a CIA failure while the Bulge was an example of criminal negligence by the military. The political propaganda spin focused on General McAuliffe's heroic stand at Bastogne rather than the reality of losing 20,000 Troops in a month. Ike should have been relieved of duty but FDR was dying and probably incompetent, the media turned Patton into a clown and COS Marshall had never been in combat so they pretended that the Bulge was really a victory for the Allies.

Marshall had been in combat - in the Philippines & WWI - see George Marshall - Wikipedia
Marshall rose to fame on his training, instruction & planning abilities. He didn't command large armies - but then, the US didn't have large armies up until WWI.

The one who truly lacked combat experience was Eisenhower - although he requested combat duty (Philippines & WWI), he also rose on training, instruction & planning. Eisenhower was twitted a lot by Montgomery in the ETO - for that lack of combat experience.

agree--but they say Ike was good for his position because he had to deal with many nationalities/people/politicians
I wonder if that is true?....he finally put Monty in his place....it is probably more true than not....even though the US was providing the majority of supplies to all

 

[harmonica]

You can't dismiss an intelligence failure with the incredible and laughable claim that the Germans "were passing orders by couriers". The plain hard fact is that whatever passed for American and Allied military intelligence was probably passed out cold in the nearest French village along with most of Ike's staff that fell for the rumors of "home for Christmas". .

The Bulge wasn't an Allied intel failure, it was a coup by the Germany military, who must have suspected that Enigma had been penetrated. Thus their countermeasures. I suggest reading:
Enigma : the battle for the code [book] / Hugh Sebag-Montefiore.
Subjects
Enigma cipher system -- History.

• World War, 1939-1945 -- Cryptography.

& of course the Bulge was fought in Luxembourg, & parts of Belgium & France.

I agree as I stated before about the Germans doing a great job at masking their forces
good way to put it....