Want to discuss "The Day of Infamy"?

[whitehall]

The victors write the history books so FDR was always safe and Marshall had a fawning biographer who would preserve his legacy. The U.S. knew that war with Japan was imminent and perhaps goaded Japan to attack American resources. COS Marshall bore the responsibility for making sure the U.S. forces were prepared for attack and ended up blaming subordinates for his negligence. For some reason FDR called an old WW1 general who had retired as COS out of retirement to be the front line commander of the area most likely to be attacked. Apparently MacArthur thought of himself more as a political envoy than a front line combat commander because he lost his entire Army four months into hostilities and was rescued and awarded the MOH while his Troops were left to surrender and die of starvation on Corrigador and Bataan.

 

[rightwinger]

MacArthur had advance warning that Pearl Harbor had been attacked and did nothing
While those Admirals in Pearl Harbor were canned for not being prepared. Mac was praised as a hero

 

[Peach]

(Great) RIP Uncle Roy:

Shadow box

(Great) Uncle Ralph (Mike) was on another ship, watched the California get hit. I knew my Uncle Mike well. He never left Pearl Harbor in his mind.

RIP to all who sacrificed that day which does "live in infamy".

 

[rightwinger]

I think the Philippines were always Japan's main military objective

They wanted to knock out our fleet at Pearl Harbor so we couldn't defend the Philippines

 

[Peach]

I think the Philippines were always Japan's main military objective

They wanted to knock out our fleet at Pearl Harbor so we couldn't defend the Philippines

I have always learned the US thought the attack would come in the Philippines.

 

[whitehall]

According to reports MacArthur seemed disoriented and unable to make a decision when it became evident that the Philippines would be attacked. You can bet the Japanese were wondering why Mac's entire air force was still parked wing to wing on the ground when they bombed. The "war plan" was never implemented and Mac managed to blame subordinates for his criminal negligence. MacArthur's nickname "dugout Doug" by U.S. Troops was not intended to be complimentary and his citation for the Medal of Honor is perhaps the shortest and least inspiring in U.S. history.

 

[harmonica]

Mac was to blame for his airpower being destroyed on the ground...they were hit hours after the PH attack

Kimmel was given a WAR warning

This dispatch is to be considered a war warning. Negotiations with Japan looking toward stabilization of conditions in the Pacific have ceased and an aggressive move by Japan is expected within the next few days. The number and equipment of Japanese troops and the organization of naval task forces indicates an amphibious expedition against either the Philippines, Thai or Kra Peninsula or possibly Borneo. Execute an appropriate defensive deployment preparatory to carrying out the tasks assigned in WPL 46. Inform district and Army authorities. A similar warning is being sent by War Department.

HyperWar: War Warning Message

Marshall gave them the WAR warning
it was up to Kimmel and Short to assign air and ships for patrol duty, not Marshall or the US
it was a WAR warning--what more could they have done?

 

[harmonica]

after the attack--they sure started dawn patrolling much, much more!! that was SOP

 

[martybegan]

I think the Philippines were always Japan's main military objective

They wanted to knock out our fleet at Pearl Harbor so we couldn't defend the Philippines

The Dutch East Indies were the main target, due to the oil found there, something Japan did not have in any appreciable amount.

The Philippines were in the way, as was the US with their embargo due to Japan's war in China.

 

[martybegan]

I think the Philippines were always Japan's main military objective

They wanted to knock out our fleet at Pearl Harbor so we couldn't defend the Philippines

I have always learned the US thought the attack would come in the Philippines.

Most thought the first attacks would be on the European Colonial possessions, as Europe was a tad busy and distracted at the time.

 

[whitehall]

Mac was to blame for his airpower being destroyed on the ground...they were hit hours after the PH attack

Kimmel was given a WAR warning

This dispatch is to be considered a war warning. Negotiations with Japan looking toward stabilization of conditions in the Pacific have ceased and an aggressive move by Japan is expected within the next few days. The number and equipment of Japanese troops and the organization of naval task forces indicates an amphibious expedition against either the Philippines, Thai or Kra Peninsula or possibly Borneo. Execute an appropriate defensive deployment preparatory to carrying out the tasks assigned in WPL 46. Inform district and Army authorities. A similar warning is being sent by War Department.

HyperWar: War Warning Message

Marshall gave them the WAR warning
it was up to Kimmel and Short to assign air and ships for patrol duty, not Marshall or the US
it was a WAR warning--what more could they have done?

COS Marshall was credited with a near photographic memory but for some reason he couldn't remember where he was during the early morning hours of Dec. 7 1941 eastern time. Marshall was one of the few people who had access to "Magic" and his staff was frantic to reach him when it became evident that the Japanese were in attack mode. When he finally reached his office he read and re-read and re- re read the decoded message until the Military message center (conveniently?) went down and he sent a lame Western Union telegram to Hawaii which arrived about the same time as the Japanese Zeroes. Kimmal and Short were on war alert for months but had no warning on that Sunday morning. MacArthur had almost 24 hours to prepare for the Japanese attack after FDR declared war but for some reason he seemed incapable of enacting the "war plan" and his planes were destroyed on the ground.

 

[harmonica]

Mac was to blame for his airpower being destroyed on the ground...they were hit hours after the PH attack

Kimmel was given a WAR warning

This dispatch is to be considered a war warning. Negotiations with Japan looking toward stabilization of conditions in the Pacific have ceased and an aggressive move by Japan is expected within the next few days. The number and equipment of Japanese troops and the organization of naval task forces indicates an amphibious expedition against either the Philippines, Thai or Kra Peninsula or possibly Borneo. Execute an appropriate defensive deployment preparatory to carrying out the tasks assigned in WPL 46. Inform district and Army authorities. A similar warning is being sent by War Department.

HyperWar: War Warning Message

Marshall gave them the WAR warning
it was up to Kimmel and Short to assign air and ships for patrol duty, not Marshall or the US
it was a WAR warning--what more could they have done?

COS Marshall was credited with a near photographic memory but for some reason he couldn't remember where he was during the early morning hours of Dec. 7 1941 eastern time. Marshall was one of the few people who had access to "Magic" and his staff was frantic to reach him when it became evident that the Japanese were in attack mode. When he finally reached his office he read and re-read and re- re read the decoded message until the Military message center (conveniently?) went down and he sent a lame Western Union telegram to Hawaii which arrived about the same time as the Japanese Zeroes. Kimmal and Short were on war alert for months but had no warning on that Sunday morning. MacArthur had almost 24 hours to prepare for the Japanese attack after FDR declared war but for some reason he seemed incapable of enacting the "war plan" and his planes were destroyed on the ground.

.....they didn't finish decoding the last 14th part of the Japanese message till Dec 7, if I recall correctly--that's very little time..
remember--most everyone did not think the Japanese were going to attack a major US base [ just like 9-11 was a shock ]--
Kimmel, Short,--everyone were not thinking of an attack on a US base
it's not like today with immediate cell phone/inet communication
...even with an important message, it takes time to decode, then they have to type it up, then figure out what to do with it, then discuss, then send it ....it takes time
..Kimmel and Short had a war warning

 

[rightwinger]

Pearl Harbor conspiracy theorists....

If FDR intentionally allowed the Pearl Harbor attack in order to get us into WWII

1. Why would anyone entering a massive global war sacrifice the backbone their Pacific fleet?
2. Why not warn Pearl Harbor and save your carriers? The Japanese would have attacked anyway and FDR would still have gotten his war
3. FDR wanted to fight Hitler, why would he in intentionally sign up for war in two theaters against powerful opponents/

 

[Peach]

Nonsense of course, documents show we thought the attack would be in the Philippines(.)

 

[whitehall]

Pearl Harbor conspiracy theorists....

If FDR intentionally allowed the Pearl Harbor attack in order to get us into WWII

1. Why would anyone entering a massive global war sacrifice the backbone their Pacific fleet?
2. Why not warn Pearl Harbor and save your carriers? The Japanese would have attacked anyway and FDR would still have gotten his war
3. FDR wanted to fight Hitler, why would he in intentionally sign up for war in two theaters against powerful opponents/

The Battleships were obsolete when planes became a viable weapon. The backbone of the Pacific fleet, the Carriers, were (conveniently) at sea. The FDR administration grossly underestimated Japan's military and viewed the Japanese in almost comic racist terms. In other words FDR was a dying man who may have suffered a series of minor strokes (his medical records disappeared after he was found dead during his 4th term) whose entire administration thought Japan would be a pushover while he desperately wanted the U.S. in the "real war" in Europe. COS Marshall had a couple of hours to officially warn Pearl Harbor but it seems that he waited until the Military Message Center (conveniently) went down and he was reluctant to pick up a freaking telephone so he ended up sending a Western Union telegram that arrived at the same time as the Japanese Zeroes.

 

[rightwinger]

Pearl Harbor conspiracy theorists....

If FDR intentionally allowed the Pearl Harbor attack in order to get us into WWII

1. Why would anyone entering a massive global war sacrifice the backbone their Pacific fleet?
2. Why not warn Pearl Harbor and save your carriers? The Japanese would have attacked anyway and FDR would still have gotten his war
3. FDR wanted to fight Hitler, why would he in intentionally sign up for war in two theaters against powerful opponents/

The Battleships were obsolete when planes became a viable weapon. The backbone of the Pacific fleet, the Carriers, were (conveniently) at sea. The FDR administration grossly underestimated Japan's military and viewed the Japanese in almost comic racist terms. In other words FDR thought Japan would be a pushover while he desperately wanted the U.S. in the "real war" in Europe. COS Marshall had a couple of hours to officially warn Pearl Harbor but it seems that he waited until the Military Message Center (conveniently) went down and he was reluctant to pick up a freaking telephone so he ended up sending a Western Union telegram that arrived at the same time as the Japanese Zeroes.

Sorry....still doesn't make sense
Both FDR and Marshal knew the value of their carrier fleet. Why sacrifice it for no reason. Let Japan attack a vacant Pearl Harbor and use your carriers to cut off their retreat. War over

In fact, FDR had vague warnings of a Japanese attack and had no idea of their plans

 

[harmonica]

Pearl Harbor conspiracy theorists....

If FDR intentionally allowed the Pearl Harbor attack in order to get us into WWII

1. Why would anyone entering a massive global war sacrifice the backbone their Pacific fleet?
2. Why not warn Pearl Harbor and save your carriers? The Japanese would have attacked anyway and FDR would still have gotten his war
3. FDR wanted to fight Hitler, why would he in intentionally sign up for war in two theaters against powerful opponents/

The Battleships were obsolete when planes became a viable weapon. The backbone of the Pacific fleet, the Carriers, were (conveniently) at sea. The FDR administration grossly underestimated Japan's military and viewed the Japanese in almost comic racist terms. In other words FDR was a dying man who may have suffered a series of minor strokes (his medical records disappeared after he was found dead during his 4th term) whose entire administration thought Japan would be a pushover while he desperately wanted the U.S. in the "real war" in Europe. COS Marshall had a couple of hours to officially warn Pearl Harbor but it seems that he waited until the Military Message Center (conveniently) went down and he was reluctant to pick up a freaking telephone so he ended up sending a Western Union telegram that arrived at the same time as the Japanese Zeroes.

there's no proof that Marshall deliberately delayed sending a warning that day
but they were ALREADY warned--how many times do I have to say it?

 

[whitehall]

Pearl Harbor conspiracy theorists....

If FDR intentionally allowed the Pearl Harbor attack in order to get us into WWII

1. Why would anyone entering a massive global war sacrifice the backbone their Pacific fleet?
2. Why not warn Pearl Harbor and save your carriers? The Japanese would have attacked anyway and FDR would still have gotten his war
3. FDR wanted to fight Hitler, why would he in intentionally sign up for war in two theaters against powerful opponents/

The Battleships were obsolete when planes became a viable weapon. The backbone of the Pacific fleet, the Carriers, were (conveniently) at sea. The FDR administration grossly underestimated Japan's military and viewed the Japanese in almost comic racist terms. In other words FDR was a dying man who may have suffered a series of minor strokes (his medical records disappeared after he was found dead during his 4th term) whose entire administration thought Japan would be a pushover while he desperately wanted the U.S. in the "real war" in Europe. COS Marshall had a couple of hours to officially warn Pearl Harbor but it seems that he waited until the Military Message Center (conveniently) went down and he was reluctant to pick up a freaking telephone so he ended up sending a Western Union telegram that arrived at the same time as the Japanese Zeroes.

there's no proof that Marshall deliberately delayed sending a warning that day
but they were ALREADY warned--how many times do I have to say it?

Subsequent Congressional testimony regarding the Pearl Harbor attack reveals that Marshall did have Magic decodes that indicated an attack and he ended up sending a lame Western Union telegraph. Watch the freaking movie if you don't care to research documents.

 

[harmonica]

as stated before--even the Japanese thought the operation too risky---so the Japanese attacking PH was far from American thinking

The Japanese Naval General Staff initially rejected Admiral Yamamoto's plan for an attack on Pearl Harbor as being too great a gamble. They doubted that surprise could be achieved when the strike force would be at sea for two weeks before the attack. Japan had eleven aircraft carriers, and the admirals felt that Yamamoto's plan could put at risk their six best carriers. They also felt that diverting Japan's six most powerful aircraft carriers to Hawaii would leave the southern attacks on the Philippines and British Malaya dangerously unprotected. In the end, Yamamoto only overcame their opposition by threatening to resign.

Japan prepares to attack Pearl Harbor

 

[whitehall]

as stated before--even the Japanese thought the operation too risky---so the Japanese attacking PH was far from American thinking

The Japanese Naval General Staff initially rejected Admiral Yamamoto's plan for an attack on Pearl Harbor as being too great a gamble. They doubted that surprise could be achieved when the strike force would be at sea for two weeks before the attack. Japan had eleven aircraft carriers, and the admirals felt that Yamamoto's plan could put at risk their six best carriers. They also felt that diverting Japan's six most powerful aircraft carriers to Hawaii would leave the southern attacks on the Philippines and British Malaya dangerously unprotected. In the end, Yamamoto only overcame their opposition by threatening to resign.

Japan prepares to attack Pearl Harbor

The Japanese understood the value of aircraft carriers and so did the U.S. As it was demonstrated in the Yamamoto shoot down, the U.S. had a pretty good handle on the Japanese code. The fact that the U.S. carriers were (conveniently) at sea during the Pearl Harbor attack indicates a setup. Since the media had become the propaganda arm of the FDR administration and FDR is seen as a political icon it's unlikely that anyone in the media or the academic world would suggest that FDR invited the attack even today in spite of evidence that seems to point that way. Maybe in the next hundred years.