12/16/44 worst military intelligence failure in US history

[CrusaderFrank]

....I would rate Korean War Nov 1950 when the Chinese attacked --TWO times--as the worst intel failures
---the second time a whole Corps was thrown off the peninsula, and the Eighth Army taking an a$$ whipping
---this after the Chinese had already attacked before
...Mac still didn't think the Chinese were a threat--after the Chinese attacked the first time when they gave some Army units a big bloody nose

in the Bulge the Germans did a fantastic job of covering their forces, radio traffic, etc.....they hit a ''weak'' area---so the failure looked bigger than it actually was
....attack in winter for both sides:
less daylight--making movements much slower
cold conditions making everything slower:
---refueling, rearming, patrolling, repairing, vehicles slower, ---everything slower
hilly/broken terrain--making movement slower
poor weather hindering Allied airpower--but also the Germans
defense is easier

part of the Germans hit the 28th division which had just been hurt bad in the Hurtgen Forest

Good point but NK's invasion of south Korea was a CIA failure while the Bulge was an example of criminal negligence by the military. The political propaganda spin focused on General McAuliffe's heroic stand at Bastogne rather than the reality of losing 20,000 Troops in a month. Ike should have been relieved of duty but FDR was dying and probably incompetent, the media turned Patton into a clown and COS Marshall had never been in combat so they pretended that the Bulge was really a victory for the Allies.

I always thought that Communist spies in State were a big help to the ChiComs and Nokos

 

[harmonica]

....I would rate Korean War Nov 1950 when the Chinese attacked --TWO times--as the worst intel failures
---the second time a whole Corps was thrown off the peninsula, and the Eighth Army taking an a$$ whipping
---this after the Chinese had already attacked before
...Mac still didn't think the Chinese were a threat--after the Chinese attacked the first time when they gave some Army units a big bloody nose

in the Bulge the Germans did a fantastic job of covering their forces, radio traffic, etc.....they hit a ''weak'' area---so the failure looked bigger than it actually was
....attack in winter for both sides:
less daylight--making movements much slower
cold conditions making everything slower:
---refueling, rearming, patrolling, repairing, vehicles slower, ---everything slower
hilly/broken terrain--making movement slower
poor weather hindering Allied airpower--but also the Germans
defense is easier

part of the Germans hit the 28th division which had just been hurt bad in the Hurtgen Forest

Good point but NK's invasion of south Korea was a CIA failure while the Bulge was an example of criminal negligence by the military. The political propaganda spin focused on General McAuliffe's heroic stand at Bastogne rather than the reality of losing 20,000 Troops in a month. Ike should have been relieved of duty but FDR was dying and probably incompetent, the media turned Patton into a clown and COS Marshall had never been in combat so they pretended that the Bulge was really a victory for the Allies.

I always thought that Communist spies in State were a big help to the ChiComs and Nokos

possible--I've read many books on it, but don't recall that...how so?
I think it was people like Mac and Almond who just wanted fame and glory, etc
..one Marine in intel said a group of boy scouts could hold up the Marines because of the weather and terrain....he said it would be hard just covering that terrain with a picnic basket -this is just common sense!!
---one MSR...very hilly--snow and ice!! ..temps down to 30 degrees below 0 !!! less daylight
but Mac and Almond said just go....but the Marines kept together, etc....my dad fought at the Chosin

even newspapers quoted the Chinese saying they would interfere if the UN crossed the parallel !! --if I remember correctly

 

[rightwinger]

....I would rate Korean War Nov 1950 when the Chinese attacked --TWO times--as the worst intel failures
---the second time a whole Corps was thrown off the peninsula, and the Eighth Army taking an a$$ whipping
---this after the Chinese had already attacked before
...Mac still didn't think the Chinese were a threat--after the Chinese attacked the first time when they gave some Army units a big bloody nose

in the Bulge the Germans did a fantastic job of covering their forces, radio traffic, etc.....they hit a ''weak'' area---so the failure looked bigger than it actually was
....attack in winter for both sides:
less daylight--making movements much slower
cold conditions making everything slower:
---refueling, rearming, patrolling, repairing, vehicles slower, ---everything slower
hilly/broken terrain--making movement slower
poor weather hindering Allied airpower--but also the Germans
defense is easier

part of the Germans hit the 28th division which had just been hurt bad in the Hurtgen Forest

Good point but NK's invasion of south Korea was a CIA failure while the Bulge was an example of criminal negligence by the military. The political propaganda spin focused on General McAuliffe's heroic stand at Bastogne rather than the reality of losing 20,000 Troops in a month. Ike should have been relieved of duty but FDR was dying and probably incompetent, the media turned Patton into a clown and COS Marshall had never been in combat so they pretended that the Bulge was really a victory for the Allies.

Last gasp from the Germans that accelerated the end of the war

 

[harmonica]

Korea 1950 Nov was an intel and strategy failure

"I believe a winter campaign in the mountains of North Korea is too much to ask of the American soldier or marine." - Gen. Oliver P. Smith [to Marine Commandant Cates

Korean War Educator: Chosin Reservoir - Ray Vallowe Research - Chapter 7
not to mention the vehicles regarding the temps, terrain, ice-snow
the US forces ''needed'' vehicles

 

[harmonica]

....I would rate Korean War Nov 1950 when the Chinese attacked --TWO times--as the worst intel failures
---the second time a whole Corps was thrown off the peninsula, and the Eighth Army taking an a$$ whipping
---this after the Chinese had already attacked before
...Mac still didn't think the Chinese were a threat--after the Chinese attacked the first time when they gave some Army units a big bloody nose

in the Bulge the Germans did a fantastic job of covering their forces, radio traffic, etc.....they hit a ''weak'' area---so the failure looked bigger than it actually was
....attack in winter for both sides:
less daylight--making movements much slower
cold conditions making everything slower:
---refueling, rearming, patrolling, repairing, vehicles slower, ---everything slower
hilly/broken terrain--making movement slower
poor weather hindering Allied airpower--but also the Germans
defense is easier

part of the Germans hit the 28th division which had just been hurt bad in the Hurtgen Forest

Good point but NK's invasion of south Korea was a CIA failure while the Bulge was an example of criminal negligence by the military. The political propaganda spin focused on General McAuliffe's heroic stand at Bastogne rather than the reality of losing 20,000 Troops in a month. Ike should have been relieved of duty but FDR was dying and probably incompetent, the media turned Patton into a clown and COS Marshall had never been in combat so they pretended that the Bulge was really a victory for the Allies.

Last gasp from the Germans that accelerated the end of the war

very much so

 

[harmonica]

a ''sane'' leader might have put all those forces on the Ostfront to keep the Ruskies from destroying, raping, killing --he would've had to have welcomed the western front Allies though....there was no completely stopping the Ruskies--they wanted ''blood'', revenge...not just victory