Zionism and The Iranian Problem

[Annie]

I posted this on another thread, but didn't seem to get any takers, so I stared anew:

I've been seeing a lot of call outs regarding anti-semitism and anti-Palestinians. Often the reply is that the poster doesn't hate Jews, but rather Zionists. Then there are the accusations that the Israelis are repeating Nazi behaviors. How? Lord knows the arguments of 'stolen lands' from the wars are enough to make any sane person lift up their arms in exasperation; however, if every inch was returned, no conditions, would that make it ok? Or is the real problem the existence of any Jewish land? Is the real argument that a two state solution is wrong, that their should ONLY be Palestinian land?

What do you consider Zionism? Why is it so offensive? Do you believe a two state solution is viable? If yes, under what conditions? If no, why not? What about the right of return? If yes, why? If no, what is wrong with it?

 

[onedomino]

Is the real argument that a two state solution is wrong, that their should ONLY be Palestinian land?

This is the Hamas, Hezbollah, etc., position. And while these Palestinian murderers indiscriminately kill innocent Israelis, Shogun and his supporters bemoan the treatment of those who backup the killing. Not once in any of Shogun's nauseatingly rabid spew on this board did I read anything about the way Palestinians rejected the Israelis when they were offered 99 percent of what they demanded at Camp David, including a Palestinian State and the return of almost all occupied land. Not once did I read condemnation of Palestinians resuming the murder campaign after Camp David. No the 99 percent the Palestinians received at Camp David was not good enough. Instead they, and their supporters, seek to erase Israel.

 

[Diuretic]

A two-state solution seems to me to be the only solution. How to get there and how to make it work are the problems of course.

 

[Annie]

This is the Hamas, Hezbollah, etc., position. And while these Palestinian murderers indiscriminately kill innocent Israelis, Shogun and his supporters bemoan the treatment of those who backup the killing. Not once in any of Shogun's nauseatingly rabid spew on this board did I read anything about the way Palestinians rejected the Israelis when they were offered 99 percent of what they demanded at Camp David, including a Palestinian State and the return of almost all occupied land. Not once did I read condemnation of Palestinians resuming the murder campaign after Camp David. No the 99 percent the Palestinians received at Camp David was not good enough. Instead they, and their supporters, seek to erase Israel.

Well that seems to be what I've read too. But perhaps we're wrong in what was meant. I certainly want to know what they see as 'so evil' about Zionism, since that seems to be the crux of their argument.

 

[Annie]

A two-state solution seems to me to be the only solution. How to get there and how to make it work are the problems of course.

In order for a two state solution, one of the states would be Israel. Is that ok, or is that Zionism?

 

[Dr Grump]

It is not zionism. Zionism is Jewish nationalism taken to the extreme. It would be what communism is to the average left-leaning person, or fascism is to the average right-leaning person - the extreme. A two-party state is the only solution. But as has been proven (and will happen again), give them autonomy and they'll start eating themselves (a la Hamas and Fatah at the moment). Same thing will happen when or if the Kurds ever get a home state. Once they get it, there'll be infighting like you wouldn't believe..

 

[midcan5]

“The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict”

Compiled, Edited, and Published by Jews for Justice in The Middle East

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html

Was Arab opposition to the arrival of Zionists based on inherent anti-Semitism or a real sense of danger to their community?

“The aim of the [Jewish National] Fund was ‘to redeem the land of Palestine as the inalienable possession of the Jewish people.’...As early as 1891, Zionist leader Ahad Ha’am wrote that the Arabs “understood very well what we were doing and what we were aiming at’...[Theodore Herzl, the founder of Zionism, stated] ‘We shall try to spirit the penniless [Arab] population across the border by procuring employment for it in transit countries, while denying it employment in our own country... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly’...At various locations in northern Palestine Arab farmers refused to move from land the Fund purchased from absentee owners, and the Turkish authorities, at the Fund’s request, evicted them...The indigenous Jews of Palestine also reacted negatively to Zionism. They did not see the need for a Jewish state in Palestine and did not want to exacerbate relations with the Arabs.” John Quigley, “Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice.”

 

[Annie]

So a state for Israelis should NOT exist, isn't that what is being said by the 2 last posters?

 

[Dr Grump]

So a state for Israelis should NOT exist, isn't that what is being said by the 2 last posters?

? I was one of those posters. Where in my post did I directly - hell, even indirectly - say that Israel should not exist?

 

[Annie]

? I was one of those posters. Where in my post did I directly - hell, even indirectly - say that Israel should not exist?

You're correct, I jumped too quickly, but I suppose it was the definition of Zionism.

Zionism is Jewish nationalism taken to the extreme.

I'm not sold on that. Besides I've had this argument with others before, nationalism and extremism is redundant. Nationalism is wrong, unless one changes the definition, doesn't matter the modifier thrown in front of it.

 

[Annie]

It is not zionism. Zionism is Jewish nationalism taken to the extreme. It would be what communism is to the average left-leaning person, or fascism is to the average right-leaning person - the extreme. A two-party state is the only solution. But as has been proven (and will happen again), give them autonomy and they'll start eating themselves (a la Hamas and Fatah at the moment). Same thing will happen when or if the Kurds ever get a home state. Once they get it, there'll be infighting like you wouldn't believe..

Why do you consider it Jewish nationalism taken to the extreme? From my readings it's the desire for the homeland and national sovereignty, not nationalism. Are you sure that it hasn't been spun into what you said? On the other hand, if it weren't for Hitler, would it have happened? IMHO, no. Neither the Jews nor 'The West' would have caused it's existence. Yet, the holocaust did happen, Israel was constructed, the people living there, "Not Palestine" were offered and refused their own state. They refused then, have since that time.

 

[Diuretic]

In order for a two state solution, one of the states would be Israel. Is that ok, or is that Zionism?

I have said - I think here, but no matter I'm happy to restate it - that Israel has a right to exist. Given that then I have to say that the other state must be Palestine. Now, getting to that point is difficult enough of course but working out the details is horrendous. But I can't see any other solution. If someone brings up dismantling Israel as a state, no, it's unjust.

 

[Annie]

I have said - I think here, but no matter I'm happy to restate it - that Israel has a right to exist. Given that then I have to say that the other state must be Palestine. Now, getting to that point is difficult enough of course but working out the details is horrendous. But I can't see any other solution. If someone brings up dismantling Israel as a state, no, it's unjust.

For some reason I'm unsurprised with your reply. Perhaps because I think you rational?

 

[Diuretic]

On Zionism - I was under the impression that it was a movement that held the establishment of Israel as its objective. Looks like it worked. If Zionism is now holding onto Israel then I suppose I have to say I support Zionism. If it means trampling the rights of non-Jewish Israelis or of grabbing land outside the current bounds of Israel then I don't support Zionism.

 

[Diuretic]

For some reason I'm unsurprised with your reply. Perhaps because I think you rational?

I must be having one of my better days then

 

[Annie]

I must be having one of my better days then

Yeah, I'd say with the last 2 of your posts in this thread, we are on the same wavelength, so of course you are rational.

 

[Annie]

With few exceptions, these questions are being ignored by those most opposed to US Israeli policy and what is coming out of Israel.

 

[Shogun]

This is the Hamas, Hezbollah, etc., position. And while these Palestinian murderers indiscriminately kill innocent Israelis, Shogun and his supporters bemoan the treatment of those who backup the killing. Not once in any of Shogun's nauseatingly rabid spew on this board did I read anything about the way Palestinians rejected the Israelis when they were offered 99 percent of what they demanded at Camp David, including a Palestinian State and the return of almost all occupied land. Not once did I read condemnation of Palestinians resuming the murder campaign after Camp David. No the 99 percent the Palestinians received at Camp David was not good enough. Instead they, and their supporters, seek to erase Israel.

funny, were I to return the automatic sentiment implied in your post.. well, we all know what the process is.


In fact, chances are you just don't catch my posts or choose not to reply. Say, when I posted a thread about Iranian students rising up where was your input regarding this positive swing? When I've posted threads showing peaceful relations between pals and jews WHERE WAS YOUR INPUT? When I posted threads showing how christians, muslims and jews lived together in peace in Lebenon WHERE WAS YOUR INPUT? But hey, if it makes your case easier by assuming that I hate israel...


I've posted viable solutions to this issue before. Dig em up. If you want to point a finger at me you might want to make sure that your accusations come close to hitting the target. Who the fuck else ever suggested giving Texas to the jews for a homeland? Does this sound like such a fucking jew hating antisemite? GIVING up an entire American state (land owned by the US instead of random other indigenous people) so that the jews can have a homeland SURE DOES validate the big "A" word that you are tapdancing around. It's not that there IS a homeland for the jews that pisses me off. It's what crimes against humanity some jews are capalbe of ignoring for the sake of zion that pisses me off. The IRONY of your own fucking persecution being the icing on this double shit-filled cake. Now, if Israel had ANY desire for peace they would have invested in the pals instead of trying to cram ONE MORE JEW within its border for the sake of some demographic population war If Israel were ANYTHING CLOSE to a western democracy there would be NO ethnic criteria in citizenship participation. I'll remind you, WE AMERICANS DON:T TELL YOU JEWS THAT THIS IS NOT YOUR HOMELAND. If Israel cannot behave in kind then it is no better than Iran; it's favored excuse for war.

You feel special because the holocaust gave your ethnicity a blank check in the 20th century. That blank check doesn't include grinding pals into the heal of your fucking quest for a nation. ESPECIALLY considering the fact that pals have every much of a valid complaint against you as you have an ancient claim to the land. Instead of proving the benevolence of the west, OF WHOME YOU ENJOPY THE TOTAL SUPPORT OF, you make weak assed excuses for the shitty treatment of other humans. Well, you werent the first to do the same thing. Germany BEAT you to it. If sustaining israel means perpetuating crimes against humanity then zionism has become wrong. If zionism were merely the hope for a homeland withouth having to step on the necks of non-jews to accomplish such then there would be NO problem with Israel. If Israel were not hellbent on racist policies that the US would NEVER get away with there would be no problem with israel.


You lame bastards that insist that i simply dont' want the jews to have a homeland are exactly why zionist has become a dirty word. YOUR OWN FUCKING TESTIMONY proves my point. You would sooner call me a jew hating antisemite than come REMOTELY CLOSE to acknowledging the treatment of pals without some retarded fucking mention of the action of a SEVERE minority of pals. HOW MANY ARTICLES FROM NEUTRAL SOURCES DID I POST IN THE LAST THREAD KATH? HOW MANY ZIONISTS REACTED IN KIND? HELL, the next jewish criminal should trigger a wide scale rounding up of all of Americas jews? No? Ya THINK? But, when it comes to israel? Well, of COURSE less than 100 kassam rockets justifies the marginalization of THE ENTIRE FUCKING POPULATION of pals! Just like the Watts Riots justifies.. no wait, WE don't allow that kind of shit in the west.

You want to know why zionism is wrong? Read the audacity of your own posts and put your words in a germans mouth circa 1941 and spare this goyim your side-stepping accusation of hatred.

 

[onedomino]

Could your response have anything less to do with my post? Your hateful and disgusting use of language is truly offensive and reflects the low quality of your thought. Your foaming-at-the-mouth hysteria over the past couple of days contained no balance whatsoever, and I suppose that it what your anti Jewish, anti Israel propaganda intended. You dig up your own posts. They're out near the cesspool.

 

[Shogun]

There you go, Gunny. THERES my example.

onedomino, I don't give a FUCK if you don't like my vocabulary. I'm not twisting your arm to read or reply to my posts. Considering your lame ass posts in these particular threads it really is no skin off of my nutsack what you think about the quality of my thoughts. Indeed, you own position says much about the quality of your own cognitive ability so you might want to put that sword down. It's a SHOCKER that a zionist would LABEL something as propaganda (or antisemite, for that matter) WITHOUT EVEN THE SLIGHTEST EFFORT IN BACKING UP YOUR ASSERTION. Indeed, your intellectual laziness and total lack of effort in backing up your ignorant accusations pretty much convey everything that needs to be said about your position and willingness to see beyond your yarmulke.

Israel, Texas motherfucker. Search the forum or eat a nice big pile of dog shit.