Your Government Owes You a Job

[georgephillip]

Jobs are not a resource.



Economic democracy would. Economic freedom would not.

Land, labor, and capital are resources.
Why wouldn't jobs qualify?

Labor is not a resource. Labor is a commodity. Subject to the laws of supply and demand.
Capital is a resource. Without capital, it is impossible to start a business.

Without labor there is no capital.

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.”

Abraham Lincoln quotes

 

[regent]

Before the Great Depression hit America states were responsible for welfare. The states in turn often turned the problem over to the counties, i.e. county poor house, farm etc. The county would often hire their poor out, including the kids, to various contractors for work.
When the Great Depression hit, states could no longer afford helping the poor and the national government under FDR took on the responsibility, but there was a catch, if you could work it was a WPA, PWA, CCC or other government job and the job was usually aiding America, somehow.
I did a six monther in the three C's and got thirty a month, room and board and meals. Of the thirty I sent it all home and the government gave me an extra five bucks for doing so.

 

[dblack]

Land, labor, and capital are resources.
Why wouldn't jobs qualify?

Labor is not a resource. Labor is a commodity. Subject to the laws of supply and demand.
Capital is a resource. Without capital, it is impossible to start a business.

Without labor there is no capital.

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.”

Abraham Lincoln quotes

How is this relevant?

 

[georgephillip]

Jobs are not a resource.



Economic democracy would. Economic freedom would not.

Land, labor, and capital are resources.
Why wouldn't jobs qualify?

I'm actually more interested in this notion of 'economic democracy'. Where does that come in? It's certainly not in the Constitution.

IMHO, it comes from labor's creation of capital, neither of which appear in the Constitution:

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.”

"Abraham Lincoln quotes (American 16th US President (1861-65), who brought about the emancipation of the slaves. 1809-1865)"

Abraham Lincoln quotes

 

[georgephillip]

I'm going to sum up the whole OP.

We need another Stimulus Package......................

That's it, after the other money didn't fix the dang thing, and as our debt is out of control.

"The (Stimulus) Act included direct spending in infrastructure, education, health, and energy, federal tax incentives, and expansion of unemployment benefits and other social welfare provisions..."

"The rationale for ARRA was from Keynesian macroeconomic theory, which argues that, during recessions, the government should offset the decrease in private spending with an increase in public spending in order to save jobs and stop further economic deterioration.

"Shortly after the law was passed, however, Nobel laureate Paul Krugman while supportive of the law, criticized the law for being too weak because it did not 'even cover one third of the (spending) gap'.[2]

"In February 2014, the White House stated that the Act saved or created an average of 1.6 million jobs a year between 2009 and 2012, thus averting another Great Depression..."

This OP is arguing for a permanent Humphrey-Hawkins type package that would provide for a reserve labor pool of government jobs that would largely eliminate the need for food stamps and UE insurance

 

[georgephillip]

Before the Great Depression hit America states were responsible for welfare. The states in turn often turned the problem over to the counties, i.e. county poor house, farm etc. The county would often hire their poor out, including the kids, to various contractors for work.
When the Great Depression hit, states could no longer afford helping the poor and the national government under FDR took on the responsibility, but there was a catch, if you could work it was a WPA, PWA, CCC or other government job and the job was usually aiding America, somehow.
I did a six monther in the three C's and got thirty a month, room and board and meals. Of the thirty I sent it all home and the government gave me an extra five bucks for doing so.

The WPA kept a roof over my mother's family through most of the Great Depression, and her father was one of the hardest working individuals I've ever known. You deserve a lot of respect for parting with 100% of your pay; America would be much better if such selflessness were in greater supply today, IMHO.

 

[dblack]

Land, labor, and capital are resources.
Why wouldn't jobs qualify?

I'm actually more interested in this notion of 'economic democracy'. Where does that come in? It's certainly not in the Constitution.

IMHO, it comes from labor's creation of capital, neither of which appear in the Constitution:

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.”

"Abraham Lincoln quotes (American 16th US President (1861-65), who brought about the emancipation of the slaves. 1809-1865)"

Abraham Lincoln quotes

How does that justify "economic democracy"? If capital is the fruit of labor, shouldn't it be under control of the individual performing the labor, rather than treated as a public resource under democratic control?

 

[bripat9643]

Wrong, again.
You are!

"The 1978 Humphrey-Hawkins Act mandates that if the private sector does not create full employment, the public sector will provide the missing jobs."

Federal Law Requires Job Creation - NYTimes.com

The problem facing this is two fold...One, finding work for these new employees to perform.
Two...Funding the wages and benefits.
You figure out how to put millions of people on the public payroll without punishing the private sector with tax increases and we have a deal. Otherwise, you are having a socialist pipe dream.

There's no shortage of work or job applicants for a public jobs program, and the richest citizens, natural and corporate, are sitting on billions of dollars susceptible to a financial transaction TAX or a property TAX on intangible property like stocks and bonds. It's time to stop punishing productive elements of society in order to fund the lifestyles of parasites.

"In short, we have proposed the formation of a National Investment Employment Corps similar to the Works Progress Administration and the Civilian Conservation Corps developed in response to the unemployment crisis of the Great Depression.

"The employment corps could address a host of national human and physical infrastructure needs including the building and restoration of roads, highways, dams, museums, parks, the postal service, child care centers, health clinics and schools.

"It could serve as a pilot site for the implementation of innovative green technologies that would enhance our environmental health. And the jobs could offer decent pay and benefits."

Federal Law Requires Job Creation - NYTimes.com

Why don't you just propose the dictatorship of the proletariat? People would understand a log better what you are trying to accomplish.

 

[bripat9643]

Before the Great Depression hit America states were responsible for welfare. The states in turn often turned the problem over to the counties, i.e. county poor house, farm etc. The county would often hire their poor out, including the kids, to various contractors for work.
When the Great Depression hit, states could no longer afford helping the poor and the national government under FDR took on the responsibility, but there was a catch, if you could work it was a WPA, PWA, CCC or other government job and the job was usually aiding America, somehow.
I did a six monther in the three C's and got thirty a month, room and board and meals. Of the thirty I sent it all home and the government gave me an extra five bucks for doing so.

The WPA kept a roof over my mother's family through most of the Great Depression, and her father was one of the hardest working individuals I've ever known. You deserve a lot of respect for parting with 100% of your pay; America would be much better if such selflessness were in greater supply today, IMHO.

It sure is enlightening observing all the welfare babies reminisce about how they sponged off the taxpayers, and they don't offer a word of thanks for them.

 

[bripat9643]

Land, labor, and capital are resources.
Why wouldn't jobs qualify?

Labor is not a resource. Labor is a commodity. Subject to the laws of supply and demand.
Capital is a resource. Without capital, it is impossible to start a business.

Without labor there is no capital.

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.”

Abraham Lincoln quotes

Men labored for 10,000 years without leaving behind a smidgeon of capital. Labor is a necessary condition, but not a sufficient condition.

What else do you suppose it takes?

 

[percysunshine]

The Government owes me a job, and they have not paid up. They are not even paying interest on the note.

Where can I go to collect?

Can I write off this job as 'bad debt' when I file my tax returns? What will the IRS say?

.

Get a life?

So my choices are get a job, or get a life.

Maybe the government owes me a life.

(there is a point to this, silly as it may seem)

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The Government owes me a job, and they have not paid up. They are not even paying interest on the note.

Where can I go to collect?

Can I write off this job as 'bad debt' when I file my tax returns? What will the IRS say?

.

Get a life?

So my choices are get a job, or get a life.

Maybe the government owes me a life.

(there is a point to this, silly as it may seem)

He won't get it.

 

[regent]

Before the Great Depression hit America states were responsible for welfare. The states in turn often turned the problem over to the counties, i.e. county poor house, farm etc. The county would often hire their poor out, including the kids, to various contractors for work.
When the Great Depression hit, states could no longer afford helping the poor and the national government under FDR took on the responsibility, but there was a catch, if you could work it was a WPA, PWA, CCC or other government job and the job was usually aiding America, somehow.
I did a six monther in the three C's and got thirty a month, room and board and meals. Of the thirty I sent it all home and the government gave me an extra five bucks for doing so.

The WPA kept a roof over my mother's family through most of the Great Depression, and her father was one of the hardest working individuals I've ever known. You deserve a lot of respect for parting with 100% of your pay; America would be much better if such selflessness were in greater supply today, IMHO.

It sure is enlightening observing all the welfare babies reminisce about how they sponged off the taxpayers, and they don't offer a word of thanks for them.

I, similar to many welfare babies, gave Uncle Sam some years of our lives and some even their lives during WWII. After the war I worked for some forty years paying my taxes every year, and now retired, recently sent in my taxes for still another year. My son served in the army and my daughter served twenty years in the navy. As for thanking the American people for the GI Bill, the VA and other benefits I have done so a few times times, even on these boards.

 

[georgephillip]

I'm actually more interested in this notion of 'economic democracy'. Where does that come in? It's certainly not in the Constitution.

IMHO, it comes from labor's creation of capital, neither of which appear in the Constitution:

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.”

"Abraham Lincoln quotes (American 16th US President (1861-65), who brought about the emancipation of the slaves. 1809-1865)"

Abraham Lincoln quotes

How does that justify "economic democracy"? If capital is the fruit of labor, shouldn't it be under control of the individual performing the labor, rather than treated as a public resource under democratic control?

Sure.
If capital and labor competed on a level playing field, why not?
Since corporate shareholders currently privatize profits by externalizing costs and denying individuals a democratic voice in economic policy decisions, workers, customers, suppliers and the broader public need to organize their efforts to control the means of production.

Economic democracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[dblack]

IMHO, it comes from labor's creation of capital, neither of which appear in the Constitution:

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.”

"Abraham Lincoln quotes (American 16th US President (1861-65), who brought about the emancipation of the slaves. 1809-1865)"

Abraham Lincoln quotes

How does that justify "economic democracy"? If capital is the fruit of labor, shouldn't it be under control of the individual performing the labor, rather than treated as a public resource under democratic control?

Sure.
If capital and labor competed on a level playing field, why not?
Since corporate shareholders currently privatize profits by externalizing costs and denying individuals a democratic voice in economic policy decisions, workers, customers, suppliers and the broader public need to organize their efforts to control the means of production.

Economic democracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Capital and labor don't compete. As you've stated, capital is the fruit of labor.

The irony here is that you correctly identify the problem (manipulation of the economy via government) but your suggestion for a solution ('economic democracy') is simply more of the same.

 

[bripat9643]

IMHO, it comes from labor's creation of capital, neither of which appear in the Constitution:

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.”

"Abraham Lincoln quotes (American 16th US President (1861-65), who brought about the emancipation of the slaves. 1809-1865)"

Abraham Lincoln quotes

How does that justify "economic democracy"? If capital is the fruit of labor, shouldn't it be under control of the individual performing the labor, rather than treated as a public resource under democratic control?

Sure.
If capital and labor competed on a level playing field, why not?
Since corporate shareholders currently privatize profits by externalizing costs and denying individuals a democratic voice in economic policy decisions, workers, customers, suppliers and the broader public need to organize their efforts to control the means of production.

Economic democracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are numerous laws on the books that prevent corporations from "externalizing" their costs. Whenever they attempt such a thing, they are generally sued. Unless it's an act of Congress, that is, like TARP.

No one but the owners is entitled to have any say in how corporations are run. No one else has a stake in the operation. People who have invested nothing are entitled to nothing.

 

[bripat9643]

The WPA kept a roof over my mother's family through most of the Great Depression, and her father was one of the hardest working individuals I've ever known. You deserve a lot of respect for parting with 100% of your pay; America would be much better if such selflessness were in greater supply today, IMHO.

It sure is enlightening observing all the welfare babies reminisce about how they sponged off the taxpayers, and they don't offer a word of thanks for them.

I, similar to many welfare babies, gave Uncle Sam some years of our lives and some even their lives during WWII. After the war I worked for some forty years paying my taxes every year, and now retired, recently sent in my taxes for still another year. My son served in the army and my daughter served twenty years in the navy. As for thanking the American people for the GI Bill, the VA and other benefits I have done so a few times times, even on these boards.

Paying taxes doesn't entitle you to anything. It never has.

So you are thankful to the government for raping some other taxpayer and giving you the proceeds. How does that justify the continuation of the pillage?

 

[dblack]

There are numerous laws on the books that prevent corporations from "externalizing" their costs. Whenever they attempt such a thing, they are generally sued. Unless it's an act of Congress, that is, like TARP.

Well, I suspect that's just the kind of 'externalizing' he's talking about. But the answer to that isn't 'economic democracy'. Indeed, 'economic democracy' is the vehicle for nonsense like TARP.

 

[bripat9643]

There are numerous laws on the books that prevent corporations from "externalizing" their costs. Whenever they attempt such a thing, they are generally sued. Unless it's an act of Congress, that is, like TARP.

Well, I suspect that's just the kind of 'externalizing' he's talking about. But the answer to that isn't 'economic democracy'. Indeed, 'economic democracy' is the vehicle for nonsense like TARP.

Yes, actually. If you want a stupid solution to a problem, then use democracy to make your decisions. The record of democracy is one colossal idiocy after another. Obamacare is the latest example.

 

[dblack]

There are numerous laws on the books that prevent corporations from "externalizing" their costs. Whenever they attempt such a thing, they are generally sued. Unless it's an act of Congress, that is, like TARP.

Well, I suspect that's just the kind of 'externalizing' he's talking about. But the answer to that isn't 'economic democracy'. Indeed, 'economic democracy' is the vehicle for nonsense like TARP.

Yes, actually. If you want a stupid solution to a problem, then use democracy to make your decisions. The record of democracy is one colossal idiocy after another. Obamacare is the latest example.

Democracy is suitable for decisions that require consensus - like choosing representatives, for example. But forcing consensus (and conformity) where it isn't necessary is usually a bad idea.