Your Extinction.

[westwall]

Evidence that it is not a hoax?

AR6 Climate Change 2021: The Physical Science Basis — IPCC

www.ipcc.ch

https://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar5/wg1/

AR4 Climate Change 2007: The Physical Science Basis — IPCC

www.ipcc.ch

TAR Climate Change 2001: The Scientific Basis — IPCC

www.ipcc.ch

SAR Climate Change 1995: The Science of Climate Change — IPCC

www.ipcc.ch

https://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar/wg1/

So, you reject "Complete idiot" and went with "Sociopathic liar". That's what I expected.

Those are opinions. Do you even know what evidence is?

 

[Crick]

Those are opinions. Do you even know what evidence is?

I know as a fact that your last two posts - and many in the past - are exceedingly strong evidence that you are a liar.

 

[westwall]

I know as a fact that your last two posts - and many in the past - are exceedingly strong evidence that you are a liar.

Prove it. You constantly post up the same crap. Crap that has been proven false many times.

That makes YOU the liar.

You still haven't answered Todd's question, how many climate skeptics get government grants?

 

[Crick]

Prove it. You constantly post up the same crap. Crap that has been proven false many times.

That makes YOU the liar.

You still haven't answered Todd's question, how many climate skeptics get government grants?

No one has proven the IPCC's conclusions false. If you disagree, post a link. If you do not know how to do that, just ask. I'm sure someone here could help you.

 

[westwall]

No one has proven the IPCC's conclusions false. If you disagree, post a link. If you do not know how to do that, just ask. I'm sure someone here could help you.

Nor have their claims been supported. EVERY one if their claims consists of these weasel words.."suggests", "may", "might", etc. etc. etc.

Nowhere do any of their claims say "WILL".

 

[Crick]

Nor have their claims been supported. EVERY one if their claims consists of these weasel words.."suggests", "may", "might", etc. etc. etc.

Nowhere do any of their claims say "WILL".

And that link to the refutation of the IPCC's conclusions? Where is that?

PS: as you've been told before, your rejection of such terms as "suggest", "may", "might", "could" shows that you don't understand how science works nor, apparently, the actual, simple difference between evidence and proof.

 

[Circe]

I am not in this argument saying that it is extremely likely that man-made global warming is real because the vast majority of scientists firmly believe it to be real (though I certainly believe that to be true). I am arguing that for it to be false, ALL those scientists have to have been lying to us for decades in a highly coordinated fashion, putting their professional lives at risk for the rather meager benefit of increased grant availability AND HAVE NEVER BEEN CAUGHT AT IT and that the real difficulties of such a process having taken place are so astronomical that no rational person can honestly say it is likely or even possible. There is not one single shred of evidence to support the idea that it is all a hoax. Not ONE. If you disagree, please enlighten us.

Yes, a post above by you claims that since (you say) a gazumpteen scientists supposedly believe in global warming, therefore it's a sure thing. But belief never creates what it believes in: plenty of Christians have died in torment all while believing in the Power of Prayer to save them. Most people, left and right, believed Hillary would win in 2016, but Trump won the election. People all used to believe that the sun went around the Earth, and it does look like it: but in fact, the Earth turns on its axis instead, and now we know that for sure. Majority belief or even universal belief simply does not create reality.

The creepy similarity with religious faith that has always been a part of global warming belief continues as in your opening post. You are proselytizing, trying to convince us to Believe. Faith is belief in things unseen, and we cannot see Global Warming, so most of us don't believe it. We here on the Chesapeake Bay were supposed to be covered with water by now, but the picnic tables sitting near the water by the bay near me have been in the same place for forty years. The Flood just never happened. Lots of bad things have happened recently that normal people hate (but apparently Dems love) like homeless clogging city sidewalks and parks; like felons let right out to do crimes again, like illegals crossing over the border by the thousands and hundreds of thousands, things that we can SEE --- nobody disagrees that these things are happening; we don't have to persuade each other that it is happening because everyone can see that, love it or hate it.

We cannot see your Global Warming Extinction. That is a matter of faith, a religion, and I'm going to leave you to it. Enjoy.

 

[Crick]

Yes, a post above by you claims that since (you say) a gazumpteen scientists supposedly believe in global warming, therefore it's a sure thing. But belief never creates what it believes in:

Neither does it refute it.

plenty of Christians have died in torment all while believing in the Power of Prayer to save them.

And non-Christians

Most people, left and right, believed Hillary would win in 2016, but Trump won the election.

But Hillary DID win the popular vote. Trump simply won in the right places.

People all used to believe that the sun went around the Earth, and it does look like it: but in fact, the Earth turns on its axis instead, and now we know that for sure. Majority belief or even universal belief simply does not create reality.

How do you, personally, KNOW that the Earth turns on its axis? Unless you happen to have spent some time in the ISS, I think it is because you have accepted the word of the experts and/or the multitudes around you.

The creepy similarity with religious faith that has always been a part of global warming belief continues as in your opening post.

I'm sorry, but I have never seen such a similarity. And, if it matters, I have been a firm atheist for 59 years.

You are proselytizing, trying to convince us to Believe. Faith is belief in things unseen, and we cannot see Global Warming, so most of us don't believe it.

Global warming and man's primary responsibility for it are supported by mountains of empirical (seeable) evidence. It does NOT require faith. It requires a tiny bit of science competency.

We here on the Chesapeake Bay were supposed to be covered with water by now, but the picnic tables sitting near the water by the bay near me have been in the same place for forty years.

No climate scientist has ever projected that you would be covered with water by now. People who don't want you to believe its happening - because it will eventually destroy their very profitable industry - have circulated falsehoods and warped science and paranoid claims. That is who said your picnic tables were supposed to be underwater by now. Global sea levels are rising and they are beginning to be a problem with storm surges and coastal erosion. Dade County Florida now suffers frequent flooding at higher than normal high tides and when strong onshore winds blow. But your picnic table will probably wear out before they float away.

The Flood just never happened. Lots of bad things have happened recently that normal people hate (but apparently Dems love) like homeless clogging city sidewalks and parks; like felons let right out to do crimes again, like illegals crossing over the border by the thousands and hundreds of thousands, things that we can SEE --- nobody disagrees that these things are happening; we don't have to persuade each other that it is happening because everyone can see that, love it or hate it.

First, I have to point out that making generalizations, good or bad, about a group as large as, say, "Dems" is invariably a mistake. I'm a democrat and I do not love the homeless clogging city sidewalks (though I think there are much more serious issues at play than clogged sidewalks) or revolving door justice or illegal aliens. The world is filled with billions of uniquely different viewpoints. Claiming that everyone in some group holds some identical view is simply biased nonsense. I think also that your concept of what can and cannot be seen is a bit disingenuous. I doubt you have seen homeless clogging the sidewalks (or shelters or food kitchens or hospitals) but I could be wrong. I doubt you have seen thousands of illegal aliens crossing our borders but I could be wrong. I doubt you have seen many felons given undeserved early releases from prisons but I could be wrong. What you have seen is television and the internet and newspapers and magazines and the stories of your friends and neighbors.

We cannot see your Global Warming Extinction. That is a matter of faith, a religion, and I'm going to leave you to it. Enjoy.

Scientists have been looking in to global warming for decades now. It is quite visible if you plot the data. It looks like this. This is the average temperature of the whole planet from the year 1880 to the present.

The Raw Truth on Global Temperature Records

Ensuring the accuracy of Earth’s long-term global and regional surface temperature records is a challenging, constantly evolving undertaking. There are lots of reasons for this, including changes in the availability of data, technological advancements in how land and sea surface temperatures are...

climate.nasa.gov

This is actually the global temperature records compiled by four different groups as seen in the legend. I'm sure you are familiar with NASA and NOAA. Hadley is a division of the British Meteorological Agency. Berkely Earth is a group from UC Berkely that started out with the assumption that the temperature data everyone else was compiling was incorrect - that it showed too much warming - and sought to produce a more correct version. When they were done, they found that everyone else had done it correctly and they came up with the same results.

The graph goes from left to right, starting in 1880 when the Industrial Revolution was well underway. This is when we started burning coal and petroleum to operate steam engines and later internal combustion engines. As you can see on the vertical scale, temperatures have not risen dramatically from a human perspective; just over 1 centigrade degree. But when the whole world does that, it has effects. It means more days of record high temperatures and fewer record cold days. It means the timing of many biological cycles of plants and animals are being shifted one way or the other. And it means that the seas are rising, both from the simple expansion of the water as it is warmed and from billons and billions of tons of ice melting and pouring in.

There are a lot of things that are quite real and can affect our lives that we cannot easily see. We cannot see bacteria and viruses that makes us ill. We cannot see radiation that gives us cancers. We cannot see what is taking place far away or understand those who speak in different tongues. It is more than a little silly to say that you only believe what you can see and it's really not true at all. There is a lot of information about man-made global warming on the internet. Some of it is good and some of it is bad and it can be very difficult sometimes to figure out which is which. I hope, though, that if you approach it with an open and unbiased mind, without any preconceived notions, and then just use your best judgement to figure out who is most likely to be speaking honestly and knowledgeably and who might have some reason to want you to reject the truth, you'll have a good chance of figuring it out yourself.

 

[Circe]

I doubt you have seen homeless clogging the sidewalks (or shelters or food kitchens or hospitals) but I could be wrong. I doubt you have seen thousands of illegal aliens crossing our borders but I could be wrong. I doubt you have seen many felons given undeserved early releases from prisons but I could be wrong. What you have seen is television and the internet and newspapers and magazines and the stories of your friends and neighbors.


There are a lot of things that are quite real and can affect our lives that we cannot easily see. We cannot see bacteria and viruses that makes us ill. We cannot see radiation that gives us cancers.

I have seen photos, many, many photos and videos of the illegals and the homeless and the felons after they have committed new murders and other crimes. No one disagrees that these are objective reality, so we can all accept them as "true." I have seen pictures of bacteria and other disease organisms and videos of sick people with diseases from these organisms, and again, no one disagrees that these things really happen.

But I can't see the beaches flooding, the beach houses inundated, the islands sunk beneath the sea because that is not happening. There are a lot of fake claims with every tornado season, every hurricane, every flooded river, that somehow these well-known weather patterns are caused by your religious belief in global warming, like when things go well in their lives, some people thank God for it. But nothing is going on that is different. That, we can see.

You are trying to get us to buy into a fake problem, as if it were a fake religion. I don't like that. SHOW us New York flooded right out, nobody can walk on Fifth Avenue or in Central Park ever again, and then we'll see.

I have to tell you, there is a difference in somebody's made up graphs on paper and the reality of life as we are living it.

If you are trying to tell me you are predicting the future, that is such a no-starter. Everyone who pretends to predict anything is lying: the word "will" is always a lie. Because the future is free and no one can predict it, or we'd all be rich off the stock market and the Towers would never have fallen on 9/11. I am only interested in what is actually happening in the real world right now, not on paper, and global warming is not happening in the real world right now, or I would have noticed.

 

[Crick]

I have seen photos, many, many photos and videos of the illegals and the homeless and the felons after they have committed new murders and other crimes. No one disagrees that these are objective reality, so we can all accept them as "true." I have seen pictures of bacteria and other disease organisms and videos of sick people with diseases from these organisms, and again, no one disagrees that these things really happen.

Yes, to be honest, there ARE people who disagree those things are happening.

But I can't see the beaches flooding, the beach houses inundated, the islands sunk beneath the sea because that is not happening.

I live in South Florida. The flooding in these pictures is sea water, not rain or overflowing rivers.

There are a lot of fake claims with every tornado season, every hurricane, every flooded river, that somehow these well-known weather patterns are caused by your religious belief in global warming, like when things go well in their lives, some people thank God for it. But nothing is going on that is different. That, we can see.

There is good reason to believe weather events are being affected - not caused - by global warming. Almost all weather is driven by heat in the oceans and in the air. The other driver is the Coriolis force which simply results from the Earth being a rotating sphere; points on the equator are moving much faster than points near the poles. But when us folks here in Hurricane Alley see a tropical disturbance headed our way, we look at water temperature to get a feel for how it might develop. Surely you have noted a number of hurricanes the last two or three years that experienced astoundingly rapid intensification. The National Hurricane Center's definition of "rapid intensification" was a storm increasing its wind by 35 mph in 24 hours. Last year, almost every storm that formed exceeded that benchmark and one storm, Hurrican Iota that came ashore in Nicaragua, accelerated 80 mph in 24 hours. Several storms in the last two years have gone from Cat 1 to Cat 4 and even Cat 5 in a single day. Other effects are often regional, such as increased precipitation, flooding and droughts. The cold waves often brought by Arctic air coming down through the American midwest - polar vortices - are actually a phenomenon called Rossby Waves. The jet stream changes from being a nearly straight loop around the Earth to a sinuous loop that moves Arctic air south in half its loops and equatorial air north in the other half. Rossby waves are formed when the temperature difference between the equator and poles increases. You have probably heard that the Arctic has warmed more rapidly than any other region of the planet. It is that warming that has caused the Rossby Waves and that has brought the still very cold (from our point of view) Arctic air into the US midwest. And despite the dramatic effect on much of the US, these waves have had no effect whatsoever on the global temperature. It is only a redistribution of the air we have, but it IS being caused by global warming.

You are trying to get us to buy into a fake problem, as if it were a fake religion.

I am not. The problem is real and I would like you to accept that because we live in a democracy and your opinion counts exactly as much as mine.

I don't like that.

Then you should be pleased that I am doing no such thing.

SHOW us New York flooded right out, nobody can walk on Fifth Avenue or in Central Park ever again, and then we'll see.

There is a very good chance that that will happen someday, but not yet. And if and when it does, it will be FAR too late for your change of mind to do any of us any good.

I have to tell you, there is a difference in somebody's made up graphs on paper and the reality of life as we are living it.

Those graphs are not "made up". They are based on real data that you can see at the global level, the national level, the regional level, the state level, the county level and the local level. It is all public information that is used daily by thousands and thousands of scientists who would have some serious problems if it were all just made up.

If you are trying to tell me you are predicting the future, that is such a no-starter.

You accept and work with predictions of your future all the time. Your schedule. Your calendar. Your weather report. A tide table. The seasons. Your doctor's assessments. Scientists have identified a number of trends. Carbon dioxide in the Earth's atmosphere has been increasing ever since the Industrial Revolution. It was extremely steady before that going back over a million years. Carbon dioxide (CO2) is a greenhouse gas. When the Earth and the oceans and the air get warmer, they radiate increased amounts of heat as infrared radiation (IR). CO2 and the few other greenhouse gases absorb it. This causes the CO2 to warm up and reradiate that energy itself. The result is that the IR that the Earth and the oceans radiate, instead of shooting straight off into space is absorbed and reradiated by the CO2. Some of that reradiated energy comes back and hits the Earth and the oceans and increases their temperature. Just like a blanket, by slowing the escape of heat, Greenhouse Gases cause the planet to warm up.

So, when scientists saw that both temperatures and CO2 levels were increasing, they became suspicious. They have investigated this phenomenon as thoroughly as could be done. They have learned a great deal about the working of the atmosphere and the Earth's climate and after looking at every thing they could imagine might be causing the warming, they've concluded that the increasing CO2 is the primary cause of the observed warming. They have also been able to tell that almost every molecule of additional CO2 above the pre-industrial levels was produced by the combusion of fossil fuels: petroleum and coal. So, knowing that we are continuing to burn petroleum and coal they have predicted that as long as we contionue to do so, the level of CO2 in the atmosphere will continue to rise. And based on that they have predicted that if we continue to burn fossil fuels, global temperatures will continue to rise. So, this is not hokum. It is not the result of a crystal ball or a Ouija Board. It is the result of scientific observations and study. It is based on a great deal of knowledge and observations. It is not made up.

Everyone who pretends to predict anything is lying: the word "will" is always a lie. Because the future is free and no one can predict it, or we'd all be rich off the stock market and the Towers would never have fallen on 9/11. I am only interested in what is actually happening in the real world right now, not on paper, and global warming is not happening in the real world right now, or I would have noticed.

Please have another look. It's important. I worry about the world my two daughters and my granddaughter have inherited from us; about what their lives will be like in another twenty or thirty years. I wonder what they will think of us... Of all of us.

 

[Circe]

The problem is real and I would like you to accept that because we live in a democracy and your opinion counts exactly as much as mine.

My vote will cancel out yours, then: works for me.

You accept and work with predictions of your future all the time. Your schedule. Your calendar. Your weather report. A tide table. The seasons. Your doctor's assessments.

No I don't!! Certainly not any doctor! I don't go to them, buncha quacks, out to harvest our insurances. And as for the total fraud that is the Weather Channel, don't get me started. I repeat: the word "will" is invariably a lie. The future is free, because reality has a lot more imagination than people do. That's why we never, never foresee anything important: like 9/11, or WWI, or Covid, or, or, or, or. If you are foreseeing Global Warming, that is the surest proof I know that it won't happen.

I worry about the world my two daughters and my granddaughter have inherited from us; about what their lives will be like in another twenty or thirty years. I wonder what they will think of us... Of all of us.

They'll think you are an alarmist with a silly quasi-religion about the climate. Sort of like the New Guinea cargo cults.

 

[Crick]

My vote will cancel out yours, then: works for me.

Our votes have always been equal. And equal to everyone else's.

No I don't!! Certainly not any doctor! I don't go to them, buncha quacks, out to harvest our insurances.

Would you go to a doctor if you were severely injured in a car accident or suffered a bad fall at home?

And as for the total fraud that is the Weather Channel, don't get me started.

So whenever it rains you get wet.

I repeat: the word "will" is invariably a lie.

I wish you had a better understanding of how science works.

The future is free, because reality has a lot more imagination that people do.

Reality is not a living entity. It has no imagination whatsoever. The universe, however, on a macroscopic scale, works on an immutable set of laws.

That's why we never, never foresee anything important: like 9/11, or WWI, or Covid, or, or, or, or.

If someone want to predict what will happen in a very small volume of space a very short amount of time in the future, they can do it fairly accurately. The further off in time and the larger a space one attempts to predict about, the less accurate will be one's results.

If you are foreseeing Global Warming, that is the surest proof I know that it won't happen.

You have misunderstood. Anthropogenic Global Warming has been going on since the late 19th century.

They'll think you are an alarmist with a silly quasi-religion about the climate. Sort of like the New Guinea cargo cults.

My daughters are intelligent grown adults. They both accept mainstream science and AGW. They do not think I am an alarmist or that I have any sort of quasi-religious beliefs about anything. Just as an aside, accepting mainstream science is rather the opposite of a religious action. Rejecting climate science and medicine is an act of faith in an unevidenced dogmatic tenet.

 

[Circe]

So whenever it rains you get wet.

No, whenever it rains I look out the window and see that it's raining. The "look out the window" technique is more useful than a million fake clickbait Weather Channel forecasts that never happen.

I suggest you stick to "look out the window" with your global warming nonsense. And not post a lot of fraudulent photos of storm surges and high tides and call them climate change.

 

[Crick]

No, whenever it rains I look out the window and see that it's raining. The "look out the window" technique is more useful than a million fake clickbait Weather Channel forecasts that never happen.

I suggest you stick to "look out the window" with your global warming nonsense. And not post a lot of fraudulent photos of storm surges and high tides and call them climate change.

Unfortunately, a great deal of what you have said here and in many of your prior posts is simply to call me a liar. I have not lied to you and neither have the scientists who have studied this subject and warned us of its likely outcome. As is true of many aspects of human behavior, individuals are rarely the only person to suffer when they err. You really ought to take more care deciding who is and is not telling you the truth.

I've given you a very fair shot at a reasonable conversation but I think it's time we said good night. I hope you have a better life than I'd predict for you. ; - )

 

[Circe]

Rejecting climate science and medicine is an act of faith in an unevidenced dogmatic tenet.

No, it's not allowing frauds to control us, as they so much want to do, as you so much want to do.

Maybe in the future there will be some actual evidence of all these claims. If so, you can enjoy that then, though probably it would take too long. This reminds me of Paul Ehrlich: I totally believed him in the 1970s --- that the world is gravely over-populating. But he was wildly (many decades) too early in his predictions and the world comfortably accommodated the great masses we're accumulating until very recently. Since we've gone over 8 billion people are starting to rethink Paul Ehrlich, but the fact remains that he was too early to the point of just being frankly wrong.

Early is wrong: that's a stock market slogan. You are either wrong, or you are wildly early. In any case, I am not interested and think global warming is a silly new religion for leftwing atheists.

 

[Circe]

You really ought to take more care deciding who is and is not telling you the truth.

I'm sure you are telling YOUR truth. You just are not telling MY truth.

I wonder why you so want to control what I believe. I don't actually care what you believe: there are lots of global warming fanatics trying to control everyone. I wonder if it's because I'm a woman, and you think women should believe what you tell us to believe.

Good luck with that here!

Or anywhere.

 

[Crick]

I'm sure you are telling YOUR truth. You just are not telling MY truth.

As I'm sure you have heard, we are all allowed our own opinions. We just aren't allowed our own facts.

I wonder why you so want to control what I believe.

I have no desire to "control" what you believe. I have repeatedly urged you to look at these things for yourself.

I don't actually care what you believe: there are lots of global warming fanatics trying to control everyone.

You have tried to convince me to believe things I reject. You say you don't believe in modern medicine. You say you don't believe weather reports. You say any attempt to predict the future is a lie. I accep modern medicine. If not for a fair deal of it I would have been dead several years back. I do believe weather reports and have a fair understanding of their limitation. As I earlier described, I believe it is possible to predict the future but the accuracy will fall off with time and scope.

I wonder if it's because I'm a woman, and you think women should believe what you tell us to believe.

I am less confrontational with you than I have been with many other male posters here. You are relatively new here and I thought I saw a possibility of actually convincing you to reexamine your beliefs. But I will not deny having some gender biases and presuppositions, despite my efforts to overcome them.

Good luck with that here!

Or anywhere.

My wife and daughters would not allow me to attempt to control what you believe. ; - ) Besides, it's not possible. I am text you are reading on your computer screen. I have no power over you. I can attempt to inform or convince but I can make no demands nor give you any orders. And, of course, you have precisely as much "power" over me.

 

[Circe]

I have no power over you.

Well, thank God for that, anyway. I don't know why you think I'm new here: my timeline under the avatar says I've been here since 2013. Longer than you.

This reminds me so much of something that happened many years ago, when a man came to the farm supposedly looking for chickens to buy. I didn't have what he asked for and he didn't seem to care or talk about where to get them --- now I think he'd just heard there was a small, young, blonde woman at the old Gamp place and he'd come to harass me with his religious fanaticism. So he started talking and I could not shut him up: he'd been a drunk, see, but then he'd Found Jesus. On and on in this vein, fast talking, couldn't be interrupted, edge of hysteria. I guess we were standing on the porch a full half hour while he preached away at me. God, Jesus, the Power of the Holy Spirit!! In those days I thought I had to be polite to older men, more fool me.

So now I'll say what I should have said to that other religious fanatic long ago:

"Stop! Stop! Stop! STOP!!! I have to go in now, Good-bye!"

(Goes in, locks door, runs around to the other doors, locks them all, makes sure he's driven off and isn't hanging around anywhere.)

 

[Crick]

Well, thank God for that, anyway. I don't know why you think I'm new here: my timeline under the avatar says I've been here since 2013. Longer than you.

I meant new to the Environment forum

This reminds me so much of something that happened many years ago, when a man came to the farm supposedly looking for chickens to buy. I didn't have what he asked for and he didn't seem to care or talk about where to get them --- now I think he'd just heard there was a small, young, blonde woman at the old Gamp place and he'd come to harass me with his religious fanaticism. So he started talking and I could not shut him up: he'd been a drunk, see, but then he'd Found Jesus. On and on in this vein, fast talking, couldn't be interrupted, edge of hysteria. I guess we were standing on the porch a full half hour while he preached away at me. God, Jesus, the Power of the Holy Spirit!! In those days I thought I had to be polite to older men, more fool me.

So now I'll say what I should have said to that other religious fanatic long ago:

"Stop! Stop! Stop! STOP!!! I have to go in now, Good-bye!"

(Goes in, locks door, runs around to the other doors, locks them all, makes sure he's driven off and isn't hanging around anywhere.)

Goodbye.

 

[James California]

This is not some insane conspiracy and to believe so is to fail the sanity test.

~ Yes, you have been duped .