"Your dead kids don't trump my Constitutional rights"

[Darkwind]

You know, countries we usually compare ourselves to

No, the countries in which YOU cherry pick data...countries with homogeneous, wealthy populations. I could easily take a slice of American that was demographically similar to any of the countries you list and would fine similar, if not lower murder rates...DESPITE ALL OUR FIREARMS.

You've always avoided addressing the question, so I expect nothing different this time, but feel free to explain how in the world there can be over 100 countries with virtual bans on civilian firearm ownership that have higher murder rates than we do, with all our oh-so-dangerous firearms.

Until you directly respond to that irrefutable point, we all see just how full of shit you are.

I notice you fail to name any of those countries who are as bad as the US

Come on...start with Somalia, Nigeria, Uganda, Columbia

Give us some names of those countries and we can talk about their murder rate

Come on coward.....give us a name

Looks to be that you are the actual coward here.

Can you even name 100 countries? Any 100, and if you go do a search, I'll know it.

 

[Lovebears65]

Dead kids are just collateral damage to our second amendment rights

More kids are killed by abortions every day.. So if you care about kids then then you would be against abortions.

Abortion is not murder
Massacering 20 six year olds is

that is your opinion.. I believe abortion is murder.

 

[DaGoose]

More kids are killed by abortions every day.. So if you care about kids then then you would be against abortions.

Abortion is not murder
Massacering 20 six year olds is

that is your opinion.. I believe abortion is murder.

So do I. In fact I think mothers who have them need to be jailed for life and killing doctors who provide them as justifiable homicide.

.

 

[DaGoose]

You tell him Joe!! Who gives a **** about anyone's dead kids when I feel it's EVERYONES unfettered Constitutional Right to carry a gun around. And I don't just mean concealed, I mean OPENLY carrying.

Dead kids are just the price we pay for our freedom. Collateral damage if you will. And anyone who disagrees with that is just an unpatriotic commie that hates America.

'Joe the Plumber' an out-of-touch gun 'extremist,' says Sandy Hook principal's daughter

.

The truth hurts, doesn't it?

Why? Are you an America hating commie?

.

 

[DaGoose]

They're too stupid to realize that gun control would be even more dangerous and less successful than the War on Drugs.

How's that one working out?

dimocraps are too stupid to live.

And please, fatass goose. If you're 'moving to Florida, please keep your domicile in Illinois. We don't need another cellulite infested Yankee telling us how to run our beautiful State.

We don't need dirtbags like you turning us into another Illinois.... Crime-infested, filthy, corrupt and stupid.

Odds are good, however, that once fatass finds out that we don't have an Income Tax, he'll change his domicile to here.

Great. Just ******* great. If so, at least stay on the East Coast of Florida. It's already going to shit.

What are you talking about? We're on the same side!! We belong to the group that doesn't give a shit about dead children as long as we have the right to pack our guns around. And if you place dead kids over our gun rights then you're nothing but a commie loving socialist.

Once kids reach the age of at least 13 they should even have the right to carry in school because nothing in the Constitution says that kids don't have the same Constitutional Rights as everyone else.

Agreed?

.

You are a scumbag

And if you don't agree with my last post you are a commie, unpatriotic scumbag.

.

 

[Brain357]

LOL....and you bring up Cherry Picking?

Norway has a murder rate of 2.2 while the rate in the US is TWICE that?

You pick ONE state with a slightly lower murder rate and think you made a point?

How about Denmark at .9?

Thus demonstrating the futility of cherry picking stats among random geographies. Thank you. Not many murders in Denmark, who have no 2nd amendment rights, but quite a bite more in Norway. Over in Minnesota, whose citizens have among the highest firearm ownership rate in the world, we see more murders than Denmark, less than Norway. Head down to disarmed Mexico and murders are rampant...same for the south side of Chicago. A few miles north in other Chicago neighborhoods, hardly any murders.

When you look at the big picture and not just isolated examples, it becomes clear that the problem of murder is not firearms, but people willing to kill others. So please, stop with the feel good nonsense of attempting to restrict the means of law abiding citizens to defend themselves. Your intentions may be true, but the actual results wrongheaded.

Norway is historically extremely low. I think the number you have must be from the year with the mass shooting. Typically it is more like .6. Don't have to cherry pick, just look at pretty much any country in Europe, they are all lower than us and have fewer guns.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Rather than argue from emotion, iignorance anf/or dishonesty, why don'y you respond to what he said with substance?

Given that of the 300,000,000 guns in the US, <0.0028% are used to murder someone, you'll have a tough time.

Of your 300m+ guns, how many of them are used to stop the NSA from violating the Fourth Amendment to the US Constitution? Oh, really? An absolute zero? What a ******* surprise.

Non sequitur. No surprise.

Of your 300m+ precious guns, how many of them are used to bring war criminals to justice?

See above

Of your 300m+ guns in the US, how many of them are actually used to defend liberty or democracy according to the 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution? ZERO.

See above.

Congrats on your completely irrlevant post.

 

[NoTeaPartyPleez]

Rather than argue from emotion, iignorance anf/or dishonesty, why don'y you respond to what he said with substance?

Given that of the 300,000,000 guns in the US, <0.0028% are used to murder someone, you'll have a tough time.

Since none of those "someone"s are anyone you know, you can feel comfortable with percentages.

I see you didn't bother to provide a link to verify that statistic. Probably picked up off some blog or the NRA website.

When I was 14 years old I had a hunting rifle pointed just inches from my face. It was an accident that almost happened when I startled my older brother who was in my dad's gun room. He had his back to the door while cleaning a rifle and didn't know anyone else was in the house. So take your ******* statistics and shove 'em. They mean nothing in real terms or lives.

Matched Deaths: 12,042 or more between Newtown and Dec. 31, 2013
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_..._death_since_newtown_sandy_hook_shooting.html

 

[eflatminor]

How about Denmark at .9?

Thus demonstrating the futility of cherry picking stats among random geographies. Thank you. Not many murders in Denmark, who have no 2nd amendment rights, but quite a bite more in Norway. Over in Minnesota, whose citizens have among the highest firearm ownership rate in the world, we see more murders than Denmark, less than Norway. Head down to disarmed Mexico and murders are rampant...same for the south side of Chicago. A few miles north in other Chicago neighborhoods, hardly any murders.

When you look at the big picture and not just isolated examples, it becomes clear that the problem of murder is not firearms, but people willing to kill others. So please, stop with the feel good nonsense of attempting to restrict the means of law abiding citizens to defend themselves. Your intentions may be true, but the actual results wrongheaded.

Norway is historically extremely low. I think the number you have must be from the year with the mass shooting. Typically it is more like .6.

The number I used is the last available. But that's not the point. The point is, if guns are the problem, how is it possible that a place like disarmed Norway could have anything close to the murder rate of HEAVILY ARMED Minnesota, much less a higher rate? They have the same population, similar demographics...hell, even similar weather! Further, how could over 100 disarmed countries have higher murder rates than America with all our guns?

That's the point! It's one you nor any of the other gun grabbers can address with logic and reason. You only go to cherry picked examples to try and support your belief that it's the firearm and not the assholes pulling the trigger. I don't get that.

Don't have to cherry pick, just look at pretty much any country in Europe, they are all lower than us and have fewer guns.

Disarmed countries in Europe with a traditionally higher murder rate than the US:
Belarus
Estonia
Lithuania
Moldova
Russia
Ukraine

Disarmed countries with traditionally similar murder rates:
Albania
Bulgaria
Latvia
Montenegro
Turkey

Disarmed countries with higher violent crime rates than the US:
England
Ireland
And a hell of a lot more I'm sure, but I don't have time to back up with proof.

And as was demonstrated by the Norway/Minnesota example, if you take a similarly sized population in the US with similar homogeneous characteristics (race, religion, wealth, etc) as the European countries with lower overall crime rates, we find the rates to be very similar, if not lower in for that particular US state(s)...DESPITE ALL OUR GUNS!

So again, the point is, we have the highest number of firearms and probably the higher ownership per capita* than any other country in the world, yet there is no clearly higher murder rate, especially when you consider so many COMPLETELY DISARMED countries have similar or markedly higher rates.

To further drive the point home, look to states like Wyoming, with all those guns and very lax gun control laws and compare its violent crime and murder rate to the states with strict gun control laws. If it really were about the guns and laws, a place like Wyoming should be rampant with crime, don't you think?

Bottom line, it's not the guns, it's the people!

*Of course, Switzerland probably has a higher firearm per capita rate...and yet, one of the LOWEST murder rates in the world. My point exactly! THEY don't tend to kill each other. People in south Chicago, exactly the opposite.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

At it got them is smuggled guns from gun Mecca United States

We have 300 million guns, plenty to share with Mexico

Obama shared some with them, cost lives too. You don't care about that killing though.

Obama never gave them any guns

Those guns were bought in gun lover haven Arizona

You are aware that the ATF INSTRUCTED the FFL dealers to illegally sell even when they knew the purchase was not legal? That the ATF allowed 3000 firearms to walk into Mexico with out even informing the Mexican Government it was doing it? That in 2004 when they tried it the 1st time WITH Mexican support they lost 400 firearms before admitting they could not track the weapons in Mexico? They shut it down because even with Mexican help it wasn't working. But then in 2009 under Obama and Holder they renewed the program only this time they did not even inform Mexico. The ATF even ordered their agents NOT to follow the buyers and not to arrest them at any time. The same ATF leaders ran both programs so they could not even claim they did not know what would happen.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

These shootings reinforce the need for Voter ID

 

[Brain357]

Thus demonstrating the futility of cherry picking stats among random geographies. Thank you. Not many murders in Denmark, who have no 2nd amendment rights, but quite a bite more in Norway. Over in Minnesota, whose citizens have among the highest firearm ownership rate in the world, we see more murders than Denmark, less than Norway. Head down to disarmed Mexico and murders are rampant...same for the south side of Chicago. A few miles north in other Chicago neighborhoods, hardly any murders.

When you look at the big picture and not just isolated examples, it becomes clear that the problem of murder is not firearms, but people willing to kill others. So please, stop with the feel good nonsense of attempting to restrict the means of law abiding citizens to defend themselves. Your intentions may be true, but the actual results wrongheaded.

Norway is historically extremely low. I think the number you have must be from the year with the mass shooting. Typically it is more like .6.

The number I used is the last available. But that's not the point. The point is, if guns are the problem, how is it possible that a place like disarmed Norway could have anything close to the murder rate of HEAVILY ARMED Minnesota, much less a higher rate? They have the same population, similar demographics...hell, even similar weather! Further, how could over 100 disarmed countries have higher murder rates than America with all our guns?

That's the point! It's one you nor any of the other gun grabbers can address with logic and reason. You only go to cherry picked examples to try and support your belief that it's the firearm and not the assholes pulling the trigger. I don't get that.

Don't have to cherry pick, just look at pretty much any country in Europe, they are all lower than us and have fewer guns.

Disarmed countries in Europe with a traditionally higher murder rate than the US:
Belarus
Estonia
Lithuania
Moldova
Russia
Ukraine

Disarmed countries with traditionally similar murder rates:
Albania
Bulgaria
Latvia
Montenegro
Turkey

Disarmed countries with higher violent crime rates than the US:
England
Ireland
And a hell of a lot more I'm sure, but I don't have time to back up with proof.

And as was demonstrated by the Norway/Minnesota example, if you take a similarly sized population in the US with similar homogeneous characteristics (race, religion, wealth, etc) as the European countries with lower overall crime rates, we find the rates to be very similar, if not lower in for that particular US state(s)...DESPITE ALL OUR GUNS!

So again, the point is, we have the highest number of firearms and probably the higher ownership per capita* than any other country in the world, yet there is no clearly higher murder rate, especially when you consider so many COMPLETELY DISARMED countries have similar or markedly higher rates.

To further drive the point home, look to states like Wyoming, with all those guns and very lax gun control laws and compare its violent crime and murder rate to the states with strict gun control laws. If it really were about the guns and laws, a place like Wyoming should be rampant with crime, don't you think?

Bottom line, it's not the guns, it's the people!

*Of course, Switzerland probably has a higher firearm per capita rate...and yet, one of the LOWEST murder rates in the world. My point exactly! THEY don't tend to kill each other. People in south Chicago, exactly the opposite.

So it sounds like you are saying that the number of guns doesn't have an effect on crime. So you must also argue against the pro gun people when they say more guns equals less crime right?

I like how you cherry pick your stats. You go from murder rate to violent crime rate because the UK actually has a much lower homicide rate than the US.

I agree the problem is that the US seems to have more people willing to pull the trigger and kill than other countries. Unless we can fix that I think we have to put some common sense gun laws in place to limit their ability to get a gun. And when they get one some laws to try and limit the damage they can do like magazine capacity limits. If you know how to keep people from wanting to kill then I am listening.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Norway is historically extremely low. I think the number you have must be from the year with the mass shooting. Typically it is more like .6.

The number I used is the last available. But that's not the point. The point is, if guns are the problem, how is it possible that a place like disarmed Norway could have anything close to the murder rate of HEAVILY ARMED Minnesota, much less a higher rate? They have the same population, similar demographics...hell, even similar weather! Further, how could over 100 disarmed countries have higher murder rates than America with all our guns?

That's the point! It's one you nor any of the other gun grabbers can address with logic and reason. You only go to cherry picked examples to try and support your belief that it's the firearm and not the assholes pulling the trigger. I don't get that.

Don't have to cherry pick, just look at pretty much any country in Europe, they are all lower than us and have fewer guns.

Disarmed countries in Europe with a traditionally higher murder rate than the US:
Belarus
Estonia
Lithuania
Moldova
Russia
Ukraine

Disarmed countries with traditionally similar murder rates:
Albania
Bulgaria
Latvia
Montenegro
Turkey

Disarmed countries with higher violent crime rates than the US:
England
Ireland
And a hell of a lot more I'm sure, but I don't have time to back up with proof.

And as was demonstrated by the Norway/Minnesota example, if you take a similarly sized population in the US with similar homogeneous characteristics (race, religion, wealth, etc) as the European countries with lower overall crime rates, we find the rates to be very similar, if not lower in for that particular US state(s)...DESPITE ALL OUR GUNS!

So again, the point is, we have the highest number of firearms and probably the higher ownership per capita* than any other country in the world, yet there is no clearly higher murder rate, especially when you consider so many COMPLETELY DISARMED countries have similar or markedly higher rates.

To further drive the point home, look to states like Wyoming, with all those guns and very lax gun control laws and compare its violent crime and murder rate to the states with strict gun control laws. If it really were about the guns and laws, a place like Wyoming should be rampant with crime, don't you think?

Bottom line, it's not the guns, it's the people!

*Of course, Switzerland probably has a higher firearm per capita rate...and yet, one of the LOWEST murder rates in the world. My point exactly! THEY don't tend to kill each other. People in south Chicago, exactly the opposite.

So it sounds like you are saying that the number of guns doesn't have an effect on crime. So you must also argue against the pro gun people when they say more guns equals less crime right?

I like how you cherry pick your stats. You go from murder rate to violent crime rate because the UK actually has a much lower homicide rate than the US.

I agree the problem is that the US seems to have more people willing to pull the trigger and kill than other countries. Unless we can fix that I think we have to put some common sense gun laws in place to limit their ability to get a gun. And when they get one some laws to try and limit the damage they can do like magazine capacity limits. If you know how to keep people from wanting to kill then I am listening.

In California there is a ban on all magazines that hold more rounds then 10, so the recent shooter bought 41 magazines. In California besides STATE and federal Background checks and a 10 day waiting period the recent shooter legally managed to buy 3 handguns. In California even with a law that allows the police to check who bought firearms and to place in custody for 3 days anyone suspected of mental problems that owns firearms the local cops made no check of the system and simply interviewed the shooter for a couple minutes and decided he was a good kid.

What other laws do you want?

 

[CrusaderFrank]

At it got them is smuggled guns from gun Mecca United States

We have 300 million guns, plenty to share with Mexico

Obama shared some with them, cost lives too. You don't care about that killing though.

Obama never gave them any guns

Those guns were bought in gun lover haven Arizona

That's a flat-out lie

 

[Brain357]

The number I used is the last available. But that's not the point. The point is, if guns are the problem, how is it possible that a place like disarmed Norway could have anything close to the murder rate of HEAVILY ARMED Minnesota, much less a higher rate? They have the same population, similar demographics...hell, even similar weather! Further, how could over 100 disarmed countries have higher murder rates than America with all our guns?

That's the point! It's one you nor any of the other gun grabbers can address with logic and reason. You only go to cherry picked examples to try and support your belief that it's the firearm and not the assholes pulling the trigger. I don't get that.



Disarmed countries in Europe with a traditionally higher murder rate than the US:
Belarus
Estonia
Lithuania
Moldova
Russia
Ukraine

Disarmed countries with traditionally similar murder rates:
Albania
Bulgaria
Latvia
Montenegro
Turkey

Disarmed countries with higher violent crime rates than the US:
England
Ireland
And a hell of a lot more I'm sure, but I don't have time to back up with proof.

And as was demonstrated by the Norway/Minnesota example, if you take a similarly sized population in the US with similar homogeneous characteristics (race, religion, wealth, etc) as the European countries with lower overall crime rates, we find the rates to be very similar, if not lower in for that particular US state(s)...DESPITE ALL OUR GUNS!

So again, the point is, we have the highest number of firearms and probably the higher ownership per capita* than any other country in the world, yet there is no clearly higher murder rate, especially when you consider so many COMPLETELY DISARMED countries have similar or markedly higher rates.

To further drive the point home, look to states like Wyoming, with all those guns and very lax gun control laws and compare its violent crime and murder rate to the states with strict gun control laws. If it really were about the guns and laws, a place like Wyoming should be rampant with crime, don't you think?

Bottom line, it's not the guns, it's the people!

*Of course, Switzerland probably has a higher firearm per capita rate...and yet, one of the LOWEST murder rates in the world. My point exactly! THEY don't tend to kill each other. People in south Chicago, exactly the opposite.

So it sounds like you are saying that the number of guns doesn't have an effect on crime. So you must also argue against the pro gun people when they say more guns equals less crime right?

I like how you cherry pick your stats. You go from murder rate to violent crime rate because the UK actually has a much lower homicide rate than the US.

I agree the problem is that the US seems to have more people willing to pull the trigger and kill than other countries. Unless we can fix that I think we have to put some common sense gun laws in place to limit their ability to get a gun. And when they get one some laws to try and limit the damage they can do like magazine capacity limits. If you know how to keep people from wanting to kill then I am listening.

In California there is a ban on all magazines that hold more rounds then 10, so the recent shooter bought 41 magazines. In California besides STATE and federal Background checks and a 10 day waiting period the recent shooter legally managed to buy 3 handguns. In California even with a law that allows the police to check who bought firearms and to place in custody for 3 days anyone suspected of mental problems that owns firearms the local cops made no check of the system and simply interviewed the shooter for a couple minutes and decided he was a good kid.

What other laws do you want?

People who wouldn't pass a background check have bought a gun in a private sale and gone on to do a mass shooting:
Wisconsin Mass Shooter Exploited Background Check Loophole That NRA Says Isn't A Problem | Blog | Media Matters for America

Mass shooters have been stopped when they try to reload:
2011 Tucson shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So these laws will save lives. I think we should do more with mental health. We had very good warning signs for this most recent shooter and the theater shooter. Sadly given how they have fought obamacare I don't see republicans supporting anything with mental health either.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

So it sounds like you are saying that the number of guns doesn't have an effect on crime. So you must also argue against the pro gun people when they say more guns equals less crime right?

I like how you cherry pick your stats. You go from murder rate to violent crime rate because the UK actually has a much lower homicide rate than the US.

I agree the problem is that the US seems to have more people willing to pull the trigger and kill than other countries. Unless we can fix that I think we have to put some common sense gun laws in place to limit their ability to get a gun. And when they get one some laws to try and limit the damage they can do like magazine capacity limits. If you know how to keep people from wanting to kill then I am listening.

In California there is a ban on all magazines that hold more rounds then 10, so the recent shooter bought 41 magazines. In California besides STATE and federal Background checks and a 10 day waiting period the recent shooter legally managed to buy 3 handguns. In California even with a law that allows the police to check who bought firearms and to place in custody for 3 days anyone suspected of mental problems that owns firearms the local cops made no check of the system and simply interviewed the shooter for a couple minutes and decided he was a good kid.

What other laws do you want?

People who wouldn't pass a background check have bought a gun in a private sale and gone on to do a mass shooting:
Wisconsin Mass Shooter Exploited Background Check Loophole That NRA Says Isn't A Problem | Blog | Media Matters for America

Mass shooters have been stopped when they try to reload:
2011 Tucson shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So these laws will save lives. I think we should do more with mental health. We had very good warning signs for this most recent shooter and the theater shooter. Sadly given how they have fought obamacare I don't see republicans supporting anything with mental health either.

You claimed we needed more laws on firearms. Knowing the laws California has what MORE do you want?

 

[Brain357]

In California there is a ban on all magazines that hold more rounds then 10, so the recent shooter bought 41 magazines. In California besides STATE and federal Background checks and a 10 day waiting period the recent shooter legally managed to buy 3 handguns. In California even with a law that allows the police to check who bought firearms and to place in custody for 3 days anyone suspected of mental problems that owns firearms the local cops made no check of the system and simply interviewed the shooter for a couple minutes and decided he was a good kid.

What other laws do you want?

People who wouldn't pass a background check have bought a gun in a private sale and gone on to do a mass shooting:
Wisconsin Mass Shooter Exploited Background Check Loophole That NRA Says Isn't A Problem | Blog | Media Matters for America

Mass shooters have been stopped when they try to reload:
2011 Tucson shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So these laws will save lives. I think we should do more with mental health. We had very good warning signs for this most recent shooter and the theater shooter. Sadly given how they have fought obamacare I don't see republicans supporting anything with mental health either.

You claimed we needed more laws on firearms. Knowing the laws California has what MORE do you want?

Universal background checks and limits on magazine capacity.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

People who wouldn't pass a background check have bought a gun in a private sale and gone on to do a mass shooting:
Wisconsin Mass Shooter Exploited Background Check Loophole That NRA Says Isn't A Problem | Blog | Media Matters for America

Mass shooters have been stopped when they try to reload:
2011 Tucson shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So these laws will save lives. I think we should do more with mental health. We had very good warning signs for this most recent shooter and the theater shooter. Sadly given how they have fought obamacare I don't see republicans supporting anything with mental health either.

You claimed we needed more laws on firearms. Knowing the laws California has what MORE do you want?

Universal background checks and limits on magazine capacity.

California has that. And he bought all 3 firearms from a licensed dealer. You said more laws would help, yet those laws did not help. In fact one can point out that those laws failed miserably.

Once again he bought 41 magazines all of the 10 round variety. Limiting magazine size did not effect his rampage in the least. Back ground checks did not effect his ability to purchase legally those firearms. Laws on the books allowing cops to detain him if he is a threat and has weapons did not work.

You want the same laws that did not work in California nationwide. Yet they do not work.

 

[eflatminor]

Norway is historically extremely low. I think the number you have must be from the year with the mass shooting. Typically it is more like .6.

The number I used is the last available. But that's not the point. The point is, if guns are the problem, how is it possible that a place like disarmed Norway could have anything close to the murder rate of HEAVILY ARMED Minnesota, much less a higher rate? They have the same population, similar demographics...hell, even similar weather! Further, how could over 100 disarmed countries have higher murder rates than America with all our guns?

That's the point! It's one you nor any of the other gun grabbers can address with logic and reason. You only go to cherry picked examples to try and support your belief that it's the firearm and not the assholes pulling the trigger. I don't get that.

Don't have to cherry pick, just look at pretty much any country in Europe, they are all lower than us and have fewer guns.

Disarmed countries in Europe with a traditionally higher murder rate than the US:
Belarus
Estonia
Lithuania
Moldova
Russia
Ukraine

Disarmed countries with traditionally similar murder rates:
Albania
Bulgaria
Latvia
Montenegro
Turkey

Disarmed countries with higher violent crime rates than the US:
England
Ireland
And a hell of a lot more I'm sure, but I don't have time to back up with proof.

And as was demonstrated by the Norway/Minnesota example, if you take a similarly sized population in the US with similar homogeneous characteristics (race, religion, wealth, etc) as the European countries with lower overall crime rates, we find the rates to be very similar, if not lower in for that particular US state(s)...DESPITE ALL OUR GUNS!

So again, the point is, we have the highest number of firearms and probably the higher ownership per capita* than any other country in the world, yet there is no clearly higher murder rate, especially when you consider so many COMPLETELY DISARMED countries have similar or markedly higher rates.

To further drive the point home, look to states like Wyoming, with all those guns and very lax gun control laws and compare its violent crime and murder rate to the states with strict gun control laws. If it really were about the guns and laws, a place like Wyoming should be rampant with crime, don't you think?

Bottom line, it's not the guns, it's the people!

*Of course, Switzerland probably has a higher firearm per capita rate...and yet, one of the LOWEST murder rates in the world. My point exactly! THEY don't tend to kill each other. People in south Chicago, exactly the opposite.

So it sounds like you are saying that the number of guns doesn't have an effect on crime. .

That would appear to be the case. Lots of geographic areas with many firearms and little crime, others with way too much. Some countries/states/areas have no legal firearms and yet high crime and murder rates, others just the opposite. There is no firm correlation much less causation.

So you must also argue against the pro gun people when they say more guns equals less crime right?

I do not argue more guns equals less crime. I argue that I, nor any law abiding citizen, should be restricted from possessing the means to defend themselves against the crazies and criminals that simply will not follow the rules, no matter how many laws are passed. I have prevented crime because I had a firearm in my hand and knew how to use it, so for me, a firearm meant less crime...and that's all that should matter as long as I don't infringe on the rights of others.

I like how you cherry pick your stats. You go from murder rate to violent crime rate because the UK actually has a much lower homicide rate than the US.

Correct, they do. But it is telling that they have a higher violent crime rate, a rate that rose dramatically AFTER they confiscated civilian owned firearms. Again, if guns were the problem, they should have a LOWER violent crime rate, don't you think?

Further, as I showed with the Denmark/Minnesota example, I can take a slice of America the same size as the UK and show a similar, if not lower murder rate...despite all our firearms. In other words, I could take a handful of states with the same population as the UK that taken together, would have the same murder rate, yet those states have PLENTY of guns. That shouldn't be possible if guns cause murder. They don't! PEOPLE murder.

I agree the problem is that the US seems to have more people willing to pull the trigger and kill than other countries.

Than some countries, yes. But as has been pointed out, there are over 100 countries whose people are MORE willing to kill than in the US...and here's the important point...those countries are disarmed. Again, that shouldn't be the case if guns cause murder or if gun control laws meant a damn thing to criminals (hint: they don't).

Further, US murders are largely centered in a few urban areas. The bulk of the country, where firearm ownership is highest, experiences murder and violent crime rates the same as or lower than all those European countries like France and Germany....and once again, sorry to repeat myself...DESPITE ALL OUR GUNS!

Unless we can fix that I think we have to put some common sense gun laws in place to limit their ability to get a gun.

That's ridiculous. First, we've shown that there is no correlation between firearm ownership and murder rates. Second, gun laws taken to the extreme (bans) have not fix a damn thing for over 100 countries. What the **** makes you think it will work here? Third, all you're doing by enacting these laws in ensuring the good guys will be at a disadvantage against the thugs that are not going to follow your rules, and fourth, you're completely overlook the historical danger of a disarmed populace and their inability to resist tyranny, which is really what the second amendment is about.

Good God man, stop thinking with pure emotion!

And when they get one some laws to try and limit the damage they can do like magazine capacity limits.

What in the **** makes you think criminals will obey your magazine limit laws? Honestly, you couldn't be this thick.

If you know how to keep people from wanting to kill then I am listening

There is no way to keep bad people from doing bad things. Never has been, never will. However, there are ways to limit the murder and violent crime rate that don't involve handicapping law abiding citizens such as putting more cops on the streets, lengthening sentencing for criminals that harm others, and ensure good guys are not restricted from defending themselves and their families. You can also enact laws that would make it easier to incarcerate individuals that "seem" mentally unstable...but you can expect your buddies at the ACLU to resist that one big time.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Rather than argue from emotion, iignorance anf/or dishonesty, why don'y you respond to what he said with substance?

Given that of the 300,000,000 guns in the US, <0.0028% are used to murder someone, you'll have a tough time.

Since none of those "someone"s are anyone you know, you can feel comfortable with percentages.

Since -I- don't argue from emotion, even if this were true, it would not change anything.

I see you didn't bother to provide a link to verify that statistic. Probably picked up off some blog or the NRA website.

The number of gun related murders available to ayone capable of looking up the FBI uniform crime report. 8855 in 2012.
FBI ? Expanded Homicide Data Table 8
Its not a surptise that youare ignorant of this number.

The number of guns in the US the current esitimnate held by most. if you have a better estimaate tell me what it is and we'll use that.

Lets say there's only 200.000.000 guns. That works out to a whopping 0.00442% of guns in the US used to murder.

Think you still have a point here?

When I was 14 years old I had a hunting rifle pointed just inches from my face...

And so, you argue against guns because of your childhood emotional trauma.
How does your emotional trauma translate to a sound argument for restricting my rights?
Hint: It doesn't. All it proves is that you are only capable of arguing from emotion, ignorance and/or dishonesty.