Yet another turn in the Zimmerman/Martin Case!

[bigrebnc1775]

oh and ed the eyewitness "john" said red sweater

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEDBqvEauYU]Trayvon Martin was punching Neighborhood Watchman when he was shot.flv - YouTube.flv - YouTube[/ame]

Zimmerman is wearing a red and dark jacket

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5OiLQjUcOU]George Zimmerman on Police Surveillance video - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Inthemiddle]

Good point. There are, of course, only two possibilities. Either Martin fell forward, or Martin fell backward. If he fell backward, then he should have been found that way, unless Zimmerman repositioned him. If Martin fell forward, Zimmerman's clothes should have been covered in blood.

The reason zimmermans clothes did not have any blood stains on them was because the police took his clothes that he was wearing as evidence. All Police departments do this when they have a crime of this nature.

But from the surveillance tape they had not taken his clothed yet as he was still wearing his red jacket and there was no blood on the front of his shirt!!!!

LOL, pay no attention to that idiot. He never ceases to amaze me with the stupid things he says. Police took his clothes, and that magically erased the blood, while leaving Zimmerman naked in the meantime?

 

[The Gadfly]

Good point. There are, of course, only two possibilities. Either Martin fell forward, or Martin fell backward. If he fell backward, then he should have been found that way, unless Zimmerman repositioned him. If Martin fell forward, Zimmerman's clothes should have been covered in blood.

The reason zimmermans clothes did not have any blood stains on them was because the police took his clothes that he was wearing as evidence. All Police departments do this when they have a crime of this nature.

But from the surveillance tape they had not taken his clothed yet as he was still wearing his red jacket and there was no blood on the front of his shirt!!!!

Ed, Just how many people have you actually seen being shot-in real life, NOT in some movie? One, two...ANY? Martin was wearing a hoodie, which I believe is about the texture of a sweatshirt, no? He was (presumably) wearing a t-shirt or something similar underneath. How big do you think a 9mm entry wound usually is? FYI, about .36 inch. In real life, blood doesn't automatically spray or gush from a chest wound immediately (even from a wound from a high-power military rifle, much less a handgun). That observation comes from seeing more (a LOT more) men shot in infantry combat, up close, than most any police officer sees in a lifetime. So does this one; an individual who has been shot may or may not collapse immediately, nor does he necessarily fall in any particular direction.Martin COULD have fallen on top of Zimmerman; it's EQUALLY possible that he might NOT have. That blood flow I mentioned would take time to soak through Martin's clothing, if it weren't immediate, AND any movement of Martin's body in the process of falling might move the hole in the hoodie away from the entry wound in his body. Your conclusion that Martin's blood would have to be all over Zimmerman, is thus pure speculation on your part, and I've just explained why, FROM REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE, not the movies, or suppositions. Furthermore, there was an autopsy on Martin, from which a number of things can be (and no doubt have been) ascertained, to wit: whether Martin was shot from the front or the back, what path the bullet took, and from that, what the relative positions of the two parties were at the moment the shot was fired. Now, IF you have that report (I don't believe it's been made public) produce the same, or shut up, because the rest of your "conclusions" such as they are, are based entirely on speculation from false premises. You're not only a just part of the hysterical lynch mob here, you're an IGNORANT part of it at that!

 

[Inthemiddle]

Even if Zimmerman initiated the physical contact & was injured, he may have held a REASONABLE BELIEF in deadly harm, if Martin was getting the better of him

No.

Martin it appears was continually holding his cell phone, I am aware of cases wherein certain cell phones have been mistaken for weapons, particularly in poor light. ONCE AGAIN, I am setting forth a rational defense, as the killer's REASONABLE beliefs are part of SELF defense. I have no supply of of distemper shots for those enraged by defenses that are not cut & dried "X ATTACKED Y, SO IT WAS OK FOR Y TO KILL X".

Yes, a reasonable belief in the necessity to defend one's self is an important element of self defense. But that does not apply when you are the instigator. If Zimmerman initiates a physical altercation with Martin, Zimmerman loses his grounds to claim self defense. Reasonable belief in the need to defend one's self ceases when one instigates a conflict.

 

[California Girl]

They have the following

1) Dead Body
2) weapon used to kill dead body
3) Person who used weapon on record saying it was done so in self defense

That isn't enough evidence to have a court decide if it was self defense or not? What else is needed?

And I'm not sure why you are throwing all that into your response to me, it doesn't really fit into what I am calling for or saying, my position is very simple and has been laid out over and over.

And the person who used the weapon saying it was self defense. What if that's all there is? What if it really was self defense? People are on record on this forum as saying they want him in prison... some say he should get the DP.... and we haven't even bothered to find him guilty. We have the NBPs issuing a reward for his capture 'dead or alive'... and there isn't even an arrest warrant out on the man. We have the media providing dishonest edited versions of 911 tapes.... what kind of fucking country is this? Is it one of laws or one of trial by media?

Yes I said that

If that is all there is then Zimmeman would be found innocent under the evidence they have. That is fine with me as long as it is the court and not you, me, the police, the media, or Al Sharpton making that call.

I never said I thought he should go to prison, i came out against the "murder for hire" move by the black panthers, and I haven't taken any media accounts as complete fact....this is why I'm saying we need a trial in the court and not the media.

I'm not sure why you seem to disagree with that assesment still. Help me out.

We don't need a trial in court.... unless the evidence supports that. If it does not, then we need to accept that it was self defense and move on.

 

[California Girl]

But you fucking lied and the lie on your part is a deflection.

Hey stupid martin must have gotten away since martim jumped zimmerman some where other than the place they first saw each other.

Well, there you go again, playing lying witness.

The only one we're sure of lying, thanks to the audio you posted, is Zimmerman who said OK when he was asked to stop following, but from the continued heavy breathing, after he lied about agreeing to stop following, we know he didn't stop following and nowhere on that 911 tape does he say that Martin got away, which was your original lie that you based your rationalization that Martin was hiding and jumped Zimmerman from his hiding place.

You fucking lied you don't have to lie to build a case against Zimmerman use the facts.

EdTheDumbass can't tell the difference between a 'fact' and bullshit. Seriously.

 

[Unkotare]

In real life, blood doesn't automatically spray or gush from a chest wound immediately (even from a wound from a high-power military rifle, much less a handgun)

Doesn't that depend on where the person is shot?

 

[edthecynic]

oh and ed the eyewitness "john" said red sweater

Trayvon Martin was punching Neighborhood Watchman when he was shot.flv - YouTube.flv - YouTube

Zimmerman is wearing a red and dark jacket

George Zimmerman on Police Surveillance video - YouTube

Wow, you are really desperate. John could tell the difference between a red jacket and a red sweater in the dark. And John said "I believe" a red sweater, so he probably wasn't 100% sure.

BTW, the police report says Zimmerman was wearing a red JACKET!!!!!!
Not that YOU would care about the truth!

http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/martinpolicreport.pdf

 

[The Gadfly]

In real life, blood doesn't automatically spray or gush from a chest wound immediately (even from a wound from a high-power military rifle, much less a handgun)

Doesn't that depend on where the person is shot?

That, and some other factors; for instance, a direct hit to the heart, or the upper aorta, will often produce arterial blood spray, though usually from the exit wound because that's usually a larger opening; a wound that collapses a lung, on the other hand, sometimes will produce little immediate external bleeding, as the surrounding skin and muscle is sucked partially into the entry wound, with the victim thus bleeding out into his chest cavity, which also compresses one or both lungs to the point the victim cannot breath or be artificially ventilated (medically, this is a tension hemothorax, part of the treatment for which is to insert a tube into the patient's chest to allow the blood trapped therein to escape, so the lungs have space to take in air). In simple terms there can be a lot of internal bleeding inside the chest cavity without a lot of external bleeding, especially from something like a 9mm which tends to punch small entry AND exit holes, unless an expanding bullet is used (and even then the expanding bullet still has to both expand fully, AND exit, which doesn't always happen. To complicate matters further, movement of the victim following the hit (falling, etc. ) can and often does pull intact clothing over the wound, where it then acts almost like a bandage. Believe it or not, you often get more arterial spray from a wound to the head, neck, abdomen, or even an extremity, than you get from many chest wounds, simply because those are more likely to hit an artery closer to the surface,and the blood doesn't have a large, compressible space (like the pulmonary cavity), to pour into.

Hope that helps; sorry if it's a bit graphic.

 

[Unkotare]

So, bottom line then: if you have blood spraying from you, that's a bad thing, right? Just want to be clear on that. Also, if you have blood filling up your insides, that's also a bad thing, right?


I'm no expert, but from what I'm hearing I'd have to say that being shot is generally something to be avoided. Am I in the ballpark here?

 

[Ravi]

The same people saying this doesn't mean shit are the same people that were up in arms when the first tape didn't show any injuries.

Why does no one notice that in the enhanced video it also appears that the cop has blood on his face?

 

[Ravi]

No it does not. It says there has to be a reasonable fear of life, bodily harm, or of a felony being done.

You should read the law.

I have, and the case law. FORCIBLE felony is the term used. Vague as all get out.

As I say, it's a bad law and needs to be addressed by the Florida legislature.

They say they will, now.

Link to that, please.

 

[Swagger]

The same people saying this doesn't mean shit are the same people that were up in arms when the first tape didn't show any injuries.

Why does no one notice that in the enhanced video it also appears that the cop has blood on his face?

Because there is not one visible trace of blood on the face - or any other appendage - of either [police] officer present in the video linked in GHook's OP.

 

[Si modo]

I have, and the case law. FORCIBLE felony is the term used. Vague as all get out.

As I say, it's a bad law and needs to be addressed by the Florida legislature.

They say they will, now.

Link to that, please.

Rep. Darryl Rouson calls for Special Session over “Stand Your Ground” law | Saint Petersblog

You're right. It's not a given they are going to revisit it. Rep. Darryl Rouson [D] called for a special session, but some Tallahassee Republicans are pressuring to wait to revisit it.

 

[Intense]

No.

Martin it appears was continually holding his cell phone, I am aware of cases wherein certain cell phones have been mistaken for weapons, particularly in poor light. ONCE AGAIN, I am setting forth a rational defense, as the killer's REASONABLE beliefs are part of SELF defense. I have no supply of of distemper shots for those enraged by defenses that are not cut & dried "X ATTACKED Y, SO IT WAS OK FOR Y TO KILL X".

Yes, a reasonable belief in the necessity to defend one's self is an important element of self defense. But that does not apply when you are the instigator. If Zimmerman initiates a physical altercation with Martin, Zimmerman loses his grounds to claim self defense. Reasonable belief in the need to defend one's self ceases when one instigates a conflict.

Not Necessarily True. Too many unknowns in this case for such a declaration. In the beginning, the outrage, was to call for a Proper Investigation, to serve Justice. What happened? What went wrong? Why isn't doing the Right thing enough? Why Politicize? Are you worried about the 2012 Election?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

The reason zimmermans clothes did not have any blood stains on them was because the police took his clothes that he was wearing as evidence. All Police departments do this when they have a crime of this nature.

But from the surveillance tape they had not taken his clothed yet as he was still wearing his red jacket and there was no blood on the front of his shirt!!!!

LOL, pay no attention to that idiot. He never ceases to amaze me with the stupid things he says. Police took his clothes, and that magically erased the blood, while leaving Zimmerman naked in the meantime?

Asshat have you been a police officer do you have any experience in crime seine investigation? If you don't shut the fuck up.
I was and I do have experience

 

[bigrebnc1775]

In real life, blood doesn't automatically spray or gush from a chest wound immediately (even from a wound from a high-power military rifle, much less a handgun)

Doesn't that depend on where the person is shot?

That, and some other factors; for instance, a direct hit to the heart, or the upper aorta, will often produce arterial blood spray, though usually from the exit wound because that's usually a larger opening; a wound that collapses a lung, on the other hand, sometimes will produce little immediate external bleeding, as the surrounding skin and muscle is sucked partially into the entry wound, with the victim thus bleeding out into his chest cavity, which also compresses one or both lungs to the point the victim cannot breath or be artificially ventilated (medically, this is a tension hemothorax, part of the treatment for which is to insert a tube into the patient's chest to allow the blood trapped therein to escape, so the lungs have space to take in air). In simple terms there can be a lot of internal bleeding inside the chest cavity without a lot of external bleeding, especially from something like a 9mm which tends to punch small entry AND exit holes, unless an expanding bullet is used (and even then the expanding bullet still has to both expand fully, AND exit, which doesn't always happen. To complicate matters further, movement of the victim following the hit (falling, etc. ) can and often does pull intact clothing over the wound, where it then acts almost like a bandage. Believe it or not, you often get more arterial spray from a wound to the head, neck, abdomen, or even an extremity, than you get from many chest wounds, simply because those are more likely to hit an artery closer to the surface,and the blood doesn't have a large, compressible space (like the pulmonary cavity), to pour into.

Hope that helps; sorry if it's a bit graphic.

Any blood splatter would come from the exist wound not the entry wound. Don't you wished Hollywood would make a movie more factual when it portrays someone being shot?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

oh and ed the eyewitness "john" said red sweater

Trayvon Martin was punching Neighborhood Watchman when he was shot.flv - YouTube.flv - YouTube

Zimmerman is wearing a red and dark jacket

George Zimmerman on Police Surveillance video - YouTube

Wow, you are really desperate. John could tell the difference between a red jacket and a red sweater in the dark. And John said "I believe" a red sweater, so he probably wasn't 100% sure.

BTW, the police report says Zimmerman was wearing a red JACKET!!!!!!
Not that YOU would care about the truth!

http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/martinpolicreport.pdf

It's not just a red jacket but what other color is on the jacket? Everything would be noted as was. A red jacket is not a red and black jacket. A sweater normally is a pullover articular of clothing such as this example

 

[Ravi]

The same people saying this doesn't mean shit are the same people that were up in arms when the first tape didn't show any injuries.

Why does no one notice that in the enhanced video it also appears that the cop has blood on his face?

Because there is not one visible trace of blood on the face - or any other appendage - of either [police] officer present in the video linked in GHook's OP.

Sure there is. Look at the opening shot before you click the play button. The cop's face is out of the "spotlight" but there is clearly blood on his face.

 

[Inthemiddle]

In real life, blood doesn't automatically spray or gush from a chest wound immediately (even from a wound from a high-power military rifle, much less a handgun)

Doesn't that depend on where the person is shot?

That, and some other factors; for instance, a direct hit to the heart, or the upper aorta, will often produce arterial blood spray, though usually from the exit wound because that's usually a larger opening; a wound that collapses a lung, on the other hand, sometimes will produce little immediate external bleeding, as the surrounding skin and muscle is sucked partially into the entry wound, with the victim thus bleeding out into his chest cavity, which also compresses one or both lungs to the point the victim cannot breath or be artificially ventilated (medically, this is a tension hemothorax, part of the treatment for which is to insert a tube into the patient's chest to allow the blood trapped therein to escape, so the lungs have space to take in air). In simple terms there can be a lot of internal bleeding inside the chest cavity without a lot of external bleeding, especially from something like a 9mm which tends to punch small entry AND exit holes, unless an expanding bullet is used (and even then the expanding bullet still has to both expand fully, AND exit, which doesn't always happen. To complicate matters further, movement of the victim following the hit (falling, etc. ) can and often does pull intact clothing over the wound, where it then acts almost like a bandage. Believe it or not, you often get more arterial spray from a wound to the head, neck, abdomen, or even an extremity, than you get from many chest wounds, simply because those are more likely to hit an artery closer to the surface,and the blood doesn't have a large, compressible space (like the pulmonary cavity), to pour into.

Hope that helps; sorry if it's a bit graphic.

All fine and dandy. But not many wounds from a 9mm will kill a person instantly with one shot.