YES, America CERTAINLY WAS FOUNDED as a CHRISTIAN NATION...

[Crackerjack]

The question was about the "Lord", not about "religion".

It shouldn't be difficult to understand that in the context of the time, "Lord" defined a very specific deity.

Yes, but no one here is going to forget you claimed the word Lord was not in the Constitution. Everyone knows our date system is a direct reference to Christ. To deny that is absolute foolishness. "Year of our Lord" is a direct reference to Christ.

So which dating system prevalent in the 18th century would a person have to use if he did not want to refer to the Lord.

I'll wait while you Google some more fail.

 

[Uncensored2008]

It's a misrepresentation to claim Jefferson was a Christian. In his bible, Jefferson dismisses two thirds of the trinity: Jesus as savior and the resurrection. What remains is a creator and not the Christian god.

He was a Deist.

Jefferson was the author of his own faith. You and Fakey Jake try to rewrite history to suit your own partisan goals. You don't define Jefferson's views.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Jefferson defines his own views, Uncensored, and we correctly describe them.

You, on the other hand, act like an unprincipled lefty and liberal and accuse others of things they have not done or that they believe in things they don't believe.

Jefferson, lefty Uncensored, was not a Christian, he was a Deist.

 

[Hollie]

It's a misrepresentation to claim Jefferson was a Christian. In his bible, Jefferson dismisses two thirds of the trinity: Jesus as savior and the resurrection. What remains is a creator and not the Christian god.

He was a Deist.

Jefferson was the author of his own faith. You and Fakey Jake try to rewrite history to suit your own partisan goals. You don't define Jefferson's views.

I have no need to rewrite history. Jefferson penned his own book which delineated his views of Jesus.

[ame]http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0807077143[/ame]

Late edit: the link to Amazon.com is malformed.

 

[Uncensored2008]

I have no need to rewrite history. Jefferson penned his own book which delineated his views of Jesus.

The Jefferson Bible:Amazon:Books

Yeah, I noted that about 70 pages back...

When dick suck was lying.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Uncensored admits that Jefferson's views, according to Hollie, were that he was not Christian.

That is a big step for Uncensored, and I congratulate him.

I have no need to rewrite history. Jefferson penned his own book which delineated his views of Jesus.

The Jefferson Bible:Amazon:Books

Yeah, I noted that about 70 pages back...

When dick suck was lying.

 

[Hollie]

I have no need to rewrite history. Jefferson penned his own book which delineated his views of Jesus.

The Jefferson Bible:Amazon:Books

Yeah, I noted that about 70 pages back...

When dick suck was lying.

I didn't see your post.

But the question still remains as to how anyone can strip Jesus of two critical elements related to biblical scripture and still be Christian?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Thomas Jefferson would not be accepted as a member in any of the far right conservative christian denominations today. Of course, he would spurn conservative christians today as awful hypocrites and subject to the judgements of Jesus Christ.

 

[logical4u]

Posted above that Jefferson of course did not believe in the superstitious parts of the Christian religion.

Jefferson believed in Christ.
He did not believe in the miracles that the bible says he performed.
That is why Jefferson wrote his own bible. He took out all of the miracles that Jesus performed.

Do you have evidence that he believed that? Did he write persuasive letters about that like he did with his other sincere beliefs? Because someone wrote something for their own personal use proves nothing.

Where is the evidence that Jefferson did not believe in the miracles in the Bible? He did reference the Lord in many of his writings.

 

[logical4u]

The question about "the Lord" is misdirection.

We are talking about the church and state, not the Lord, logical4u.

We are talking about the Constitution, not your religious conceptions.

refresher:

Quote: Originally Posted by Hollie

You're hoping to dodge the issue of your lies.

Please find a single reference to Christianity or the Christian gods in the constitution.


What is the "written" date on the Constitution?


The date that was LEGALLY required to make something a LEGAL document thru out the Western world at that time.
...
"Attest William Jackson Secretary

done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independance of the United States of America the Twelfth In witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names,"... signed names



BTW, the founders were very educated people. Most knew more than one language and knew of other cultures and calendars. If they wanted to make the country more "American" they could have used the Aztec calendar. If they wanted the world to know how influencial Rome was, they could have used a Roman calendar (and declared that the citizens "worship" the new emperor). They would have been aware of the Arabian calendar, and could have chosen that. They did not. They chose the calendar that European Christians (and the gov't officials educated by the churches) used."

No sir, we are speaking of this being a Christian nation. We are not discussing it being a particular denomination (well, perhaps you are). It seems there are many of you that want to ignore tons of evidence, a person that is very selective about who posts what, and are intellectually dishonest. There were many different "Christian" denominations that came to this country to escape persecution in their homelands. The FF wanted no repeat of violence because of the way people practiced "Christianity". They tried to protect the people of this land by including "freedom of religion" (since there were no Hindus, Buddahists, muslims, the only reasonable conclusion is that it referred to "Christian" denomoninations). It just so happens that because of this "right" (endowed by the "Creator"), other faiths that come here live in more freedom than most other places in the world.

 

[logical4u]

The FF's came to a concensus. It's called the First Amendment.

To put a finer point on that, the FF's intention was to put a muzzle on the governments involvement in the personal affairs of the citizenry regarding their choice or no choice of religion.

The best way to do that was to keep government completely neutral regarding the matters of religion.

The question was about the "Lord", not about "religion".

You're not being honest in your argumentation and you're stumbling over your own comments.

I know you assess yourself as not, but I would say anyone who embraces the forcing of kowtowing to gods is in fact cramming it. Let's try it this way:

In 250 years (pretend you are still alive and healthy), the Arab population has swelled in the US to a whopping 72%. Islam is the majority religion. Congress, filled with Moslems, enacts a law: Henceforth, the word "God" will be replaced with "Allah (PBUH)" on all coin of the realm, both metal and paper.

Would you feel Islam was being forced down your throat?

If your answer is "Yes", then extrapolate it a few steps to me, and for millions of others who do not believe (or believe differently).

And now you can see why the exclusionary clause of the 1st Amendment should stand inviolate. You still have your freedom to worship as you please and I have the freedom to not.

How utterly fair and simple.

Where did I tell you to "kowtow" to the Christian Lord?

If muslims become 72% of the population, it will not matter what is written in the Constitution, this will be a nation of deceit, destruction, death, decay and dust. Look at any country where the muslim population is over 50%, and see if that isn't what you find.

Now look at countries where the Christian population is involved in gov't. It is just the opposite. There is disgust for corruption (deceit), destruction, murder, decay and dust.

 

[logical4u]

So what. Unimportant to the argument. Why? Vestryman was part of the county commissioners' job, UR. One had to belong to the Anglican Church, which Washington and Jefferson certainly did, and both served as vestryman. In other words, if a Virginian went into politics in VA, he was most likely going to be Anglican despite his real religious beliefs.

Jefferson was a deist and Washington was certainly no one's concept of today's far right wack conservative Christian.

Didn't you just say Jefferson belonged to the "Anglican" church. This man that stood up for learning and independence would "appease" people by going to church? That just doesn't make sense.

I very much believe Jefferson is the type of man that would participate in this type of behavior. Just look how he lied about the US not being Christian in the Treaty of Tripoli to appease the Barbary Pirates.

Okay, history lesson, repeated: "back in the day", royalty declared that they were chosen by God, and as such, were "above" all other men. If they usurped the throne, they found a bishop or comparable holy man to declare them such, so their children would be "royalty". This was done predominantly in the time that Catholism had such influence over "civilization".
In the treaty of Tripoli, Jefferson was pointing out there was no such appointment of royalty, according to "the" Christian faith.

IF Jefferson was as opposed to Christianity as some are declaring here (with no documentation or evidence, just some incidental quotes where Jefferson was stating his opinion against a state-declared faith), with as opinionated and persuasive as Jefferson was, don't you think there would be letters, even volumes documenting his arguments? Please, provide some evidence that Jefferson was against the "Lord", or against personal faith in the "Lord".

 

[logical4u]

The story is common knowledge and your attempt to deceive fails.

Jefferson was deist. Jefferson thought Jesus was the greatest moral philosopher. Jefferson wanted a wall between church and state. Jefferson succeeded.

Nice try. The burden of disproof is not on me, and I will not fall for your deception. Here, let me say it like you would... Provide the link NOW or its time for you to leave.

The story is common knowledge and you can't disprove it.

Where did "Jefferson" document this?

 

[logical4u]

It shouldn't be difficult to understand that in the context of the time, "Lord" defined a very specific deity.

Yes, but no one here is going to forget you claimed the word Lord was not in the Constitution. Everyone knows our date system is a direct reference to Christ. To deny that is absolute foolishness. "Year of our Lord" is a direct reference to Christ.

In your need to force hey-Zeus into the constitution, you are not understanding that in the context of that prior comment, I was referring to the FF's deliberate exclusion of any specific gods in the formulation of the constitution.

You have this desperate need to force your gods onto those around you. Fortunately, the constitution protects me from people like you by providing freedom from your religion.

No one is trying to force the Lord onto you. "Christians" believe that spiritual belief is personal. If you have a good relationship with the Lord, you will try to live according to his teachings. If you do not have a good relationship, it is very clear to most Christians that are trying by your deceit, corruption and rejection of the Lord (not tolerance of another's beliefs, but absolute attacks on the Lord, a Being they declare "imaginated").

It is clear by your posts that you not only embrace corruption, but practice deceit as well. You refuse to list any evidence/links that this nation had this great variety of religions, other than Christianity at its founding.

The first Amendment:
"Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Religion comes FIRST, before the freedom of speech, the freedom of the press, or the right to assemble. Now for the intellectually dishonest: if there were no other religions besides Christianity, isn't it clear that this Constitution was written, agreed to and for: Christians? Because that same Constitution works well for other faiths has no bearing on the original discussion of this thread.

 

[logical4u]

Thomas Paine was denied burial in a Christian cemetery. Dr. Manley states that he was greatly distressed concerning his interment. Madame Bonneville says: "He wished to be buried in the Quaker burying ground. ... The committee of the Quakers refused to receive his body, at which he seemed deeply moved." A renunciation of his Infidel opinions -- a simple acknowledgment of Jesus Christ -- would have secured him a burial place in any Christian cemetery. He was buried on his farm.

At that time, there were many that were not buried in specific church graveyards. Many churches denied anyone that was not a member burial in their graveyards, especially if they seemed to publicly go against that particular denominations teachings.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Provided elsewhere.

Posted above that Jefferson of course did not believe in the superstitious parts of the Christian religion.

Do you have evidence that he believed that? Did he write persuasive letters about that like he did with his other sincere beliefs? Because someone wrote something for their own personal use proves nothing.

Where is the evidence that Jefferson did not believe in the miracles in the Bible? He did reference the Lord in many of his writings.

 

[logical4u]

Thomas Jefferson's advice: "Fix Reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason than of blindfolded fear. ... Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences. If it end in a belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise and in the love of others which it will procure for you" (Jefferson's Works, Vol. ii., p. 217).

I missed the part where Jefferson said "this is what I believe"....

 

[JakeStarkey]

The term Anno Domini is an archaic form required for legal attestation. It does not mean that the signers were attesting to the idea they were Christians, merely that it was their names affixed to the document.

The question about "the Lord" is misdirection.

We are talking about the church and state, not the Lord, logical4u.

We are talking about the Constitution, not your religious conceptions.

refresher:

Quote: Originally Posted by Hollie

You're hoping to dodge the issue of your lies.

Please find a single reference to Christianity or the Christian gods in the constitution.


What is the "written" date on the Constitution?


The date that was LEGALLY required to make something a LEGAL document thru out the Western world at that time.
...
"Attest William Jackson Secretary

done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independance of the United States of America the Twelfth In witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names,"... signed names



BTW, the founders were very educated people. Most knew more than one language and knew of other cultures and calendars. If they wanted to make the country more "American" they could have used the Aztec calendar. If they wanted the world to know how influencial Rome was, they could have used a Roman calendar (and declared that the citizens "worship" the new emperor). They would have been aware of the Arabian calendar, and could have chosen that. They did not. They chose the calendar that European Christians (and the gov't officials educated by the churches) used."

No sir, we are speaking of this being a Christian nation. We are not discussing it being a particular denomination (well, perhaps you are). It seems there are many of you that want to ignore tons of evidence, a person that is very selective about who posts what, and are intellectually dishonest. There were many different "Christian" denominations that came to this country to escape persecution in their homelands. The FF wanted no repeat of violence because of the way people practiced "Christianity". They tried to protect the people of this land by including "freedom of religion" (since there were no Hindus, Buddahists, muslims, the only reasonable conclusion is that it referred to "Christian" denomoninations). It just so happens that because of this "right" (endowed by the "Creator"), other faiths that come here live in more freedom than most other places in the world.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Provided elsewhere.

The story is common knowledge and your attempt to deceive fails.

Jefferson was deist. Jefferson thought Jesus was the greatest moral philosopher. Jefferson wanted a wall between church and state. Jefferson succeeded.

Nice try. The burden of disproof is not on me, and I will not fall for your deception. Here, let me say it like you would... Provide the link NOW or its time for you to leave.

Where did "Jefferson" document this?

 

[logical4u]

Franklin Franklin received a religious training, but his good sense and his humane nature forced him to rebel against the irrational and inhuman tenets of his parents' faith, and at an early age a spirit of skepticism was developed in him, as the following extracts from his Autobiography will show:"My parents had given me betimes religions impressions, and I received from my infancy a pious education in the principles of Calvinism. But scarcely was I arrived at fifteen years of age, when, after having doubted in turn of different tenets, according as I found them combated in the different books that I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself" (Autobiography, p. 66).

"Calvinism"?

Where does he say that he doesn't believe in the Lord?