YES, America CERTAINLY WAS FOUNDED as a CHRISTIAN NATION...

[Hollie]

Yet in every state constitution (provided earlier in this thread), the Lord is mentioned by names that were common for God in those times.

Let me make it easier: where did a FF every request that the Lord stay out of the US gov't?

The FF's came to a concensus. It's called the First Amendment.

To put a finer point on that, the FF's intention was to put a muzzle on the governments involvement in the personal affairs of the citizenry regarding their choice or no choice of religion.

The best way to do that was to keep government completely neutral regarding the matters of religion.

The question was about the "Lord", not about "religion".

You're not being honest in your argumentation and you're stumbling over your own comments.

I know you assess yourself as not, but I would say anyone who embraces the forcing of kowtowing to gods is in fact cramming it. Let's try it this way:

In 250 years (pretend you are still alive and healthy), the Arab population has swelled in the US to a whopping 72%. Islam is the majority religion. Congress, filled with Moslems, enacts a law: Henceforth, the word "God" will be replaced with "Allah (PBUH)" on all coin of the realm, both metal and paper.

Would you feel Islam was being forced down your throat?

If your answer is "Yes", then extrapolate it a few steps to me, and for millions of others who do not believe (or believe differently).

And now you can see why the exclusionary clause of the 1st Amendment should stand inviolate. You still have your freedom to worship as you please and I have the freedom to not.

How utterly fair and simple.

 

[UltimateReality]

So what. Unimportant to the argument. Why? Vestryman was part of the county commissioners' job, UR. One had to belong to the Anglican Church, which Washington and Jefferson certainly did, and both served as vestryman. In other words, if a Virginian went into politics in VA, he was most likely going to be Anglican despite his real religious beliefs.

Jefferson was a deist and Washington was certainly no one's concept of today's far right wack conservative Christian.

George Washington, Episcopal Vestryman
Washington was for many years a vestryman at Truro Parish, his local Episcopal Church. The entry of June 5, 1772, shows Washington and his neighbor, George Mason, the author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights, engaged in parish business, including making arrangements for replacing the front steps of the church, painting its roof and selling church pews to the members as a means of obtaining revenue. The minutes of the meeting also reveal that Washington and George William Fairfax presented the parish with gold leaf to be used to gild letters on "Carved Ornaments" on the altar.

Didn't you just say Jefferson belonged to the "Anglican" church. This man that stood up for learning and independence would "appease" people by going to church? That just doesn't make sense.

I very much believe Jefferson is the type of man that would participate in this type of behavior. Just look how he lied about the US not being Christian in the Treaty of Tripoli to appease the Barbary Pirates.

 

[UltimateReality]

Nice try. The burden of disproof is not on me, and I will not fall for your deception. Here, let me say it like you would... Provide the link NOW or its time for you to leave.

The story is common knowledge and you can't disprove it.

Washington would not even take communion when challenged by his parish priest and walked in the gardens thereafter.

Please post a link to substantiate your claim. And not from one of Hollie's pinko, atheist fundie websites but from a reputable source like the Library of Congress.

If if you could find a link, this shows your limited understanding of communion. I have refused communion myself for Biblical reasons. This could show him as a stronger Christian in light of Biblical teachings, not a weaker one. You atheists love to pretend you know and then take things out of context to support your materialism.

Basically the Bible instructs Christians not to take communion until they have examined their heart, and confessed their sin.

1 Corinthians 11:

4 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

 

[UltimateReality]

The FF's came to a concensus. It's called the First Amendment.

To put a finer point on that, the FF's intention was to put a muzzle on the governments involvement in the personal affairs of the citizenry regarding their choice or no choice of religion.

The best way to do that was to keep government completely neutral regarding the matters of religion.

The question was about the "Lord", not about "religion".

It shouldn't be difficult to understand that in the context of the time, "Lord" defined a very specific deity.

Yes, but no one here is going to forget you claimed the word Lord was not in the Constitution. Everyone knows our date system is a direct reference to Christ. To deny that is absolute foolishness. "Year of our Lord" is a direct reference to Christ.

 

[UltimateReality]

Typical. Your quotes have proved nothing because you have supplied no post numbers and no context.

No one is falling for your saintly act. You think no on will notice how you conveniently left out all your bullying quotes? Someone else brought up the fact I was a cop and discredited my service before I made mention of my unblemished record, so nice try on twisting the truth.

Lie.

Hollie, or whatever your name is, you seriously need to get a life. Got tired of spewing hate on the Muslims and thought you would try your hand at Creationists. Guess that works on some but this retired cop isn't falling for your lies and your fraudulent postings. I really seriously wonder what your real story is. I guess we will never know.

You brought it up, slapnuts.

I guess the whole not bearing false witness rule doesn't apply to you.

 

[UltimateReality]

The FF's came to a concensus. It's called the First Amendment.

To put a finer point on that, the FF's intention was to put a muzzle on the governments involvement in the personal affairs of the citizenry regarding their choice or no choice of religion.

The best way to do that was to keep government completely neutral regarding the matters of religion.

The question was about the "Lord", not about "religion".

You're not being honest in your argumentation and you're stumbling over your own comments.

I know you assess yourself as not, but I would say anyone who embraces the forcing of kowtowing to gods is in fact cramming it. Let's try it this way:

In 250 years (pretend you are still alive and healthy), the Arab population has swelled in the US to a whopping 72%. Islam is the majority religion. Congress, filled with Moslems, enacts a law: Henceforth, the word "God" will be replaced with "Allah (PBUH)" on all coin of the realm, both metal and paper.

Would you feel Islam was being forced down your throat?

If your answer is "Yes", then extrapolate it a few steps to me, and for millions of others who do not believe (or believe differently).

And now you can see why the exclusionary clause of the 1st Amendment should stand inviolate. You still have your freedom to worship as you please and I have the freedom to not.

How utterly fair and simple.

Omigosh you use flawed logic!!! Is anyone else buying this fallacious example??? Let's use an accurate comparison and see who agrees:

You flee Iran because you disagree with the Ayatollah's form of Islam that is being forced on everyone. You wind up landing on island and many more of your friends and others who have fled continue to arrive over the coming years. After about 100 years, the population of you and your Muslim friends has grown so much you decide to form a government. Everything is centered around Islam, but remembering the oppression you once suffered in Iran, you are determined to make sure that all MUSLIMS can practice ISLAM however they choose. Shiite's and Sunni's are all free to practice their form of Islam as they please. You institute a proud tradition of Sharia law, doing honor killings, cutting off thieves' hands and prohibiting woman from driving. When your little school children come in from a fun recess of pretending to be suicide bombers and killing infidels, they recite their pledge... "One nation under Allah". But then after 200 years, a small sect of Christians arrives. They start having 8 or 10 or even 12 kids. Next thing you know your island is over 60% Christian. These Christians start to rewrite the history books, and one of the very shrewd Christians, is even elected to president, all the while posing as a Muslim. This president even says Christians have always been a part of your island, even though a renegade group of these Christians just blew up two of your large monuments to Islam in the last few years. One of your Ayatollahs claims the fake Muslim president wasn't even born here but he is quickly silenced by the increasingly more corrupt Al Jazeera television. (But I digress ) These arrogant Christians start complaining that you can't behead homosexuals anymore because Allah loves them too. They pass laws that won't let you drag the female [half of the couple] caught in adultery out into the street so you can pop that wicked temptress in the back of the head with an AK-47 while the male who was caught in the act goes free. These Christians even encourage women to uncover their faces, and teach crazy things like, "In Christ, there is neither Jew nor Greek, Male or Female, somehow insinuating that everyone is equal in the eyes of their God. Instead of letting you blow your enemy to smithereens, their Rabbi teaches them to love their enemies and to pray for those that do them wrong. Eventually they get on the internet and start saying your Island was never Muslim to begin with, and they start trying to pass laws to get Allah off your coin, and remove Muhammad's image from all your public squares. It gets so bad that they start to persecute just Islam, embracing every other flavor of the day religion, while harassing your children at school. They pass rules that your children can no longer play with bomber vests, or pretend to slash infidels throats on the playground. They try to force your woman out of their black sheets and wear bikinis in public!!!

So the question is, would you feel that Christianity was being forced down your throat? If your answer is "yes", then take a few steps back with me. And now you can see how it all started with those Christians trying to rewrite your proud Islamic history. It started subtlety, but then grew into them saying it wasn't even Muslims that founded your island government. They started campaigns to remove the very mention of Muhammad from your government, until they got to the point where they began convincing everyone your Islamic tradition never even happened at all.

How utterly sinister and simple.

 

[Hollie]

The question was about the "Lord", not about "religion".

You're not being honest in your argumentation and you're stumbling over your own comments.

I know you assess yourself as not, but I would say anyone who embraces the forcing of kowtowing to gods is in fact cramming it. Let's try it this way:

In 250 years (pretend you are still alive and healthy), the Arab population has swelled in the US to a whopping 72%. Islam is the majority religion. Congress, filled with Moslems, enacts a law: Henceforth, the word "God" will be replaced with "Allah (PBUH)" on all coin of the realm, both metal and paper.

Would you feel Islam was being forced down your throat?

If your answer is "Yes", then extrapolate it a few steps to me, and for millions of others who do not believe (or believe differently).

And now you can see why the exclusionary clause of the 1st Amendment should stand inviolate. You still have your freedom to worship as you please and I have the freedom to not.

How utterly fair and simple.

Omigosh you use flawed logic!!! Is anyone else buying this fallacious example??? Let's use an accurate comparison and see who agrees:

You flee Iran because you disagree with the Ayatollah's form of Islam that is being forced on everyone. You wind up landing on island and many more of your friends and others who have fled continue to arrive over the coming years. After about 100 years, the population of you and your Muslim friends has grown so much you decide to form a government. Everything is centered around Islam, but remembering the oppression you once suffered in Iran, you are determined to make sure that all MUSLIMS can practice ISLAM however they choose. Shiite's and Sunni's are all free to practice their form of Islam as they please. You institute a proud tradition of Sharia law, doing honor killings, cutting off thieves' hands and prohibiting woman from driving. When your little school children come in from a fun recess of pretending to be suicide bombers and killing infidels, they recite their pledge... "One nation under Allah". But then after 200 years, a small sect of Christians arrives. They start having 8 or 10 or even 12 kids. Next thing you know your island is over 60% Christian. These Christians start to rewrite the history books, and one of the very shrewd Christians, is even elected to president, all the while posing as a Muslim. This president even says Christians have always been a part of your island, even though a renegade group of these Christians just blew up two of your large monuments to Islam in the last few years. One of your Ayatollahs claims the fake Muslim president wasn't even born here but he is quickly silenced by the increasingly more corrupt Al Jazeera television. (But I digress ) These arrogant Christians start complaining that you can't behead homosexuals anymore because Allah loves them too. They pass laws that won't let you drag the female [half of the couple] caught in adultery out into the street so you can pop that wicked temptress in the back of the head with an AK-47 while the male who was caught in the act goes free. These Christians even encourage women to uncover their faces, and teach crazy things like, "In Christ, there is neither Jew nor Greek, Male or Female, somehow insinuating that everyone is equal in the eyes of their God. Instead of letting you blow your enemy to smithereens, their Rabbi teaches them to love their enemies and to pray for those that do them wrong. Eventually they get on the internet and start saying your Island was never Muslim to begin with, and they start trying to pass laws to get Allah off your coin, and remove Muhammad's image from all your public squares. It gets so bad that they start to persecute just Islam, embracing every other flavor of the day religion, while harassing your children at school. They pass rules that your children can no longer play with bomber vests, or pretend to slash infidels throats on the playground. They try to force your woman out of their black sheets and wear bikinis in public!!!

So the question is, would you feel that Christianity was being forced down your throat? If your answer is "yes", then take a few steps back with me. And now you can see how it all started with those Christians trying to rewrite your proud Islamic history. It started subtlety, but then grew into them saying it wasn't even Muslims that founded your island government. They started campaigns to remove the very mention of Muhammad from your government, until they got to the point where they began convincing everyone your Islamic tradition never even happened at all.

How utterly sinister and simple.

I'd hate to have anyone think that confused, irrevelant nonsense was my contribution.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The story is common knowledge and your attempt to deceive fails.

Jefferson was deist. Jefferson thought Jesus was the greatest moral philosopher. Jefferson wanted a wall between church and state. Jefferson succeeded.

Nice try. The burden of disproof is not on me, and I will not fall for your deception. Here, let me say it like you would... Provide the link NOW or its time for you to leave.

The story is common knowledge and you can't disprove it.

Please post a link to substantiate your claim. And not from one of Hollie's pinko, atheist fundie websites but from a reputable source like the Library of Congress.

If if you could find a link, this shows your limited understanding of communion. I have refused communion myself for Biblical reasons. This could show him as a stronger Christian in light of Biblical teachings, not a weaker one. You atheists love to pretend you know and then take things out of context to support your materialism.

Basically the Bible instructs Christians not to take communion until they have examined their heart, and confessed their sin.

1 Corinthians 11:

4 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

 

[Hollie]

The question was about the "Lord", not about "religion".

It shouldn't be difficult to understand that in the context of the time, "Lord" defined a very specific deity.

Yes, but no one here is going to forget you claimed the word Lord was not in the Constitution. Everyone knows our date system is a direct reference to Christ. To deny that is absolute foolishness. "Year of our Lord" is a direct reference to Christ.

In your need to force hey-Zeus into the constitution, you are not understanding that in the context of that prior comment, I was referring to the FF's deliberate exclusion of any specific gods in the formulation of the constitution.

You have this desperate need to force your gods onto those around you. Fortunately, the constitution protects me from people like you by providing freedom from your religion.

 

[bodecea]

So what. Unimportant to the argument. Why? Vestryman was part of the county commissioners' job, UR. One had to belong to the Anglican Church, which Washington and Jefferson certainly did, and both served as vestryman. In other words, if a Virginian went into politics in VA, he was most likely going to be Anglican despite his real religious beliefs.

Jefferson was a deist and Washington was certainly no one's concept of today's far right wack conservative Christian.

Didn't you just say Jefferson belonged to the "Anglican" church. This man that stood up for learning and independence would "appease" people by going to church? That just doesn't make sense.

I very much believe Jefferson is the type of man that would participate in this type of behavior. Just look how he lied about the US not being Christian in the Treaty of Tripoli to appease the Barbary Pirates.

Priceless! Hold up the Founders as saying we are a Christian nation and when they say something different, it's because they are "lying".

 

[JakeStarkey]

Thomas Paine was denied burial in a Christian cemetery. Dr. Manley states that he was greatly distressed concerning his interment. Madame Bonneville says: "He wished to be buried in the Quaker burying ground. ... The committee of the Quakers refused to receive his body, at which he seemed deeply moved." A renunciation of his Infidel opinions -- a simple acknowledgment of Jesus Christ -- would have secured him a burial place in any Christian cemetery. He was buried on his farm.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Thomas Jefferson's advice: "Fix Reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason than of blindfolded fear. ... Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences. If it end in a belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise and in the love of others which it will procure for you" (Jefferson's Works, Vol. ii., p. 217).

 

[JakeStarkey]

George Washington The "People's Library of Information" contains the following:
"The question has been raised as to whether any one of our Presidents was a communicant in a Christian church. There is a tradition that Washington asked permission of a Presbyterian mister in New Jersey to unite in communion. But it is only a tradition. Washington was a vestryman in the Episcopal church. But that office required no more piety than it would to be mate of a ship. There is no account of his communing in Boston, or in New York, or Philadelphia, or elsewhere, during the Revolutionary struggle."

 

[JakeStarkey]

Franklin Franklin received a religious training, but his good sense and his humane nature forced him to rebel against the irrational and inhuman tenets of his parents' faith, and at an early age a spirit of skepticism was developed in him, as the following extracts from his Autobiography will show:"My parents had given me betimes religions impressions, and I received from my infancy a pious education in the principles of Calvinism. But scarcely was I arrived at fifteen years of age, when, after having doubted in turn of different tenets, according as I found them combated in the different books that I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself" (Autobiography, p. 66).

 

[Uncensored2008]

The story is common knowledge and you can't disprove it.

The story that you have sex with marsupials is common knowledge, and you can't disprove it, Fakey Jake.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Uncensored is failing again. Look above and weep my little canine.

 

[UltimateReality]

Hey dude, keep up. We were talking about Washington refusing communion.

The story is common knowledge and your attempt to deceive fails.

Jefferson was deist. Jefferson thought Jesus was the greatest moral philosopher. Jefferson wanted a wall between church and state. Jefferson succeeded.

Nice try. The burden of disproof is not on me, and I will not fall for your deception. Here, let me say it like you would... Provide the link NOW or its time for you to leave.

The story is common knowledge and you can't disprove it.

 

[UltimateReality]

It shouldn't be difficult to understand that in the context of the time, "Lord" defined a very specific deity.

Yes, but no one here is going to forget you claimed the word Lord was not in the Constitution. Everyone knows our date system is a direct reference to Christ. To deny that is absolute foolishness. "Year of our Lord" is a direct reference to Christ.

In your need to force hey-Zeus into the constitution, you are not understanding that in the context of that prior comment, I was referring to the FF's deliberate exclusion of any specific gods in the formulation of the constitution.

You have this desperate need to force your gods onto those around you. Fortunately, the constitution protects me from people like you by providing freedom from your religion.

You have a desperate need never to admit you are WRONG.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Ultimate Reality is stumbing and bumbling right through the thread.

 

[UltimateReality]

Didn't you just say Jefferson belonged to the "Anglican" church. This man that stood up for learning and independence would "appease" people by going to church? That just doesn't make sense.

I very much believe Jefferson is the type of man that would participate in this type of behavior. Just look how he lied about the US not being Christian in the Treaty of Tripoli to appease the Barbary Pirates.

Priceless! Hold up the Founders as saying we are a Christian nation and when they say something different, it's because they are "lying".

Hey Bodey, it was Starkey and Butch that claimed Jefferson's church going was a lie. I'm not surprised you missed the logical sarcasm of my post. You and your revisionist friends want to say that Jefferson would fake going to church to further his political career and appease the CHRISTIAN populace, but you don't even question the fact he could have exaggerated his statement about our government to the Barbary pirates to appease them. You guys love to insert YOUR imaginary motivations for the FF's and will flip flop willy nilly just so you maintain the party line to fit your false meta narrative.