Yeah, let's play a game

[Zavulon]

In the case of Russian counter force strike significant parts of Montana and Dacotas will be devastated by fallouts. But most of the USA (say nothing about the rest of the world) will be perfectly intact.

 

[kyzr]

I know what Ukrainians are. My Mom was Ukrainian, and my Grandmom was western Ukrainian. Some of my friends were Ukrainian Nazis. And they are fighting for something they really value, their "Ukrainian identity". In the situation of free market and free coexistence of Russian and Ukrainian, people doesn't speak Ukrainian. They speak Russian. In the "equal right" situation Ukrainian language in Ukraine will be lesser used than Belarusian in Belarus or Dakota language in North Dakota state. In 2013 in Ukraine less than 10% of published fiction books were published in Ukrainian. That's why they need use extreme violence to suppress Russian culture and language.

Here in the US we have a significant segment of the population that is Hispanic. They can speak their language, and have their Spanish TV stations, but politically, they are a good mix, not monolithic. Latinos are the fastest growing segment of the US population. We majority whites enjoy all of the cultures that comprise the US. The "official language" here is English, so we don't have the cultural baggage of Russians/Ukrainians. Violence should not be necessary to promote the "official language", unless some Russians don't accept the "official language" and need to be convinced with force?

Situation with Europeans is even more simple. They live on a little, overpopulated and resource poor peninsula. They need not just "cheap" Russian resources. They need those resources for free and they need Russian land just to survive. If they try to live on their own - they are going to fall to pre-industrial levels in few decades. Say nothing about corrupted politicians who sell (to Americans) their subjects as cannon fodder. I do understand their motivation. And I do understand that "acceptable" for us peace (the world of equal rights and equal safety) is "unacceptable" for them.

The EU would love to buy Russian energy, but not if it finances Russia's war machine. The EU can pay for its needs, it does not "need" anything from Russia to survive. The EU is more prosperous than Russia. Your arguments fall flat since after WW2 the EU and Russia have both lived in peace quite nicely. There is no justification for war.

We had the treaty once. You had violated it and then you cancelled it. And the only reason why you need medium range missiles in Europe - you are preparing to attack Russia.

I'm not sure what "treaty" we canceled? The only reason we need missiles of any type is to keep Russia from attacking someone. NATO missiles are not first strike missiles.

Yep. It seems to me, that you won't accept Russia-acceptable terms without good nuking. Actually, if those media "leaks" are even 10% true, your decision-makers doesn't even think about what kind of peace is acceptable for Russia.

My understanding of the current 20-point peace deal is Russia keep the land it occupies, but no land it does not occupy, but the "security guarantees" for Ukraine are the problem. NATO countries border Russia from Sweden to Turkey, Ukraine would only be an EU country, not a NATO country, if I understand the plan correctly.

It depends. Attacking first is definitely better than attack second.

No difference, devastation happens either way.

Its just a tripware. You send peacekeepers to start a war if those peacekeepers are killed. And, say, French peacekeepers in Odessa will be killed pretty soon.

If ending the war means Russia never invades Ukraine a tripwire of a few "peacekeepers" just triggers the fighting again, but with other countries fighting with Ukraine. So no invasion would succeed. Peace means no invasions. Hopefully Putin retires soon and the threat of war retires with him.

Ok. Let's play the game. France sends a few hundred peacekeepers armed with firearms in Odessa. If there is still the same regime in Kiev, there will be rebellion in Odessa. There is a rebellion and French peacekeepers are killed. France decided to send more troops to suppress Odessa Rebellion and support Kiev's regime. Of course, more troops with tanks and missiles are unacceptable for Russia. Russian Federation send a big salvo of cruise missiles and UAVs and kill them all. France declare war on Russian Federation and just to protect their nuclear Triumphant-class SSBNs order them out of the base. Russia face the choice between allowing all three submarines in sea (and in this case Moscow can be destroyed) or killing two submarines in the base and face retaliation from only one submarine (that can't destroy Moscow, and can destroy, say, Voronezh). The choice between Moscow and Voronezh is obvious (especially if France already declared the war) and Russia nuke base Ile-Longe, and say, that if France nuke Russian cities - Russia will destroy seven French cities for every Russian. France have choice - retaliate and be destroyed or don't retaliate and surrender. Smart choice is to surrender, but they can decide otherwise (especially if Macron sold Frenchies as Zelenskiy sold Ukrainians, for big money and some guarantees of personal safety). France destroyed Voronezh and Russia destroyed seven medium-size French cities and demand unconditional surrender. Now the USA face the choice - accept nuclear defeat of their nuclear ally and sign a mutually acceptable peace with Russia without any provocative moves (as they wrote in schemes - "Millions dead, Russian domination") or bring nukes on the table and start their own preparations to a nuclear war and in this situation the one who shot first is the one who laugh last.
That's what we call "escalation". And it is inevitable if we didn't eradicate the roots of conflict - NATO expansion and Ukrainian nationalism.

Your game setup is flawed. First, French peacekeepers would be along the "demilitarized zone" similar to the 2014 border between Russian and Ukrainian troops. If any French troops were sent to Odessa there would not be a rebellion, if there was, Ukrainian troops would put the rebellion down, not the French peacekeepers. Russia would not have any excuse to intervene in Odessa, Odessa is none of their business. There would be no "escalation" because the role of peacekeepers would be very limited.

You don't want to negotiate even strategic missiles, exactly because you are preparing to the war on Russia. Or ask your congressman why Trump can't negotiate prolongation of the New Start treaty.

Ok. I'm not privy to the latest strategic rationale' or the START Treaty. But I do know that no one wants a war with Russia.

 

[Zavulon]

Here in the US we have a significant segment of the population that is Hispanic. They can speak their language, and have their Spanish TV stations, but politically, they are a good mix, not monolithic. Latinos are the fastest growing segment of the US population. We majority whites enjoy all of the cultures that comprise the US. The "official language" here is English, so we don't have the cultural baggage of Russians/Ukrainians. Violence should not be necessary to promote the "official language", unless some Russians don't accept the "official language" and need to be convinced with force?

You still have a peace (more or less) because there is not discrimination of any language. You don't have language patrols, you don't have the High Council for den#ggerisation and de-latinisation, you don't ban "Latin" nor "N#gger music", you don't burn alive people who just protest against discrimination. Try to do what Ukrainians tried to do - and you'll have civil war, too.
And I can't blame people who don't want to speak like if they are mocking the village imbeciles.

So, you say you are a white, English speaker, right? Where exactly do you live, if you don't mind?

You have Canada and you have French-speaking minority there. Now, let's play the game. After illegal coup, new Canadian junta declared, as the part of their policy of de-Americanisation, that French is the only legal language in Canada, and all the guys who tried to protest can be killed without asking questions (including burning alive) by French-speaking militants, hired by China. Do you believe that English-speaking Americans will or even can ignore it?

The EU would love to buy Russian energy, but not if it finances Russia's war machine.

They don't want to buy. They want to take it for free.

The EU can pay for its needs, it does not "need" anything from Russia to survive.

Now, they need fertilizers.

The EU is more prosperous than Russia.

It depends on the way you calculate wealth.

Your arguments fall flat since after WW2 the EU and Russia have both lived in peace quite nicely. There is no justification for war.

Europe and Russia both lived in peace because half of Europe was occupied by Russia, and another half - by Americans. And they remembered what happened when they go east. Both Russia and America unleashed them, and they returned to their traditional behaviour.

I'm not sure what "treaty" we canceled?

INF treaty.

The only reason we need missiles of any type is to keep Russia from attacking someone. NATO missiles are not first strike missiles.

Of course they are. If you want retaliate - you should keep missiles on your own territory. It's safer, cheaper and more effective. There is no difference between destruction of Moscow in 15 minutes after destruction of Paris and in 45 minutes. That's what we call "Reliable Second Strike Capability".

My understanding of the current 20-point peace deal is Russia keep the land it occupies, but no land it does not occupy, but the "security guarantees" for Ukraine are the problem. NATO countries border Russia from Sweden to Turkey, Ukraine would only be an EU country, not a NATO country, if I understand the plan correctly.

It won't work anyway.

No difference, devastation happens either way.

If ending the war means Russia never invades Ukraine a tripwire of a few "peacekeepers" just triggers the fighting again, but with other countries fighting with Ukraine. So no invasion would succeed. Peace means no invasions. Hopefully Putin retires soon and the threat of war retires with him.

There will be no peace with the current Kievan regime in charge. They will do literally everything to drawn Europeans and Americans in the war.

Your game setup is flawed. First, French peacekeepers would be along the "demilitarized zone" similar to the 2014 border between Russian and Ukrainian troops.

And they will be, at least constantly under attack of "unknown UAVs" and local rebels.

If any French troops were sent to Odessa there would not be a rebellion, if there was, Ukrainian troops would put the rebellion down, not the French peacekeepers.

If Ukrainain forces commit another Odessa massacre, and they will commit it, there is no way how Putin, or anyone else can prevent Russian people, may be, including some regular military units, from attacking Ukrainians and French Peacekeepers.

Russia would not have any excuse to intervene in Odessa, Odessa is none of their business.

Odessa is a Russian city, and there is no way any Russian government can ignore situation in it. Can US government or White American Protestant guys ignore systematic genocide of English-speaking Canadians in, say, Alberta, commited by pro-Chinese government.

There would be no "escalation" because the role of peacekeepers would be very limited.

They will be killed, and there will be escalation.

Ok. I'm not privy to the latest strategic rationale' or the START Treaty. But I do know that no one wants a war with Russia.

But still, the war seems inevitable, because you don't want peace with Russia, either.

 

[kyzr]

You still have a peace (more or less) because there is not discrimination of any language. You don't have language patrols, you don't have the High Council for den#ggerisation and de-latinisation, you don't ban "Latin" nor "N#gger music", you don't burn alive people who just protest against discrimination. Try to do what Ukrainians tried to do - and you'll have civil war, too.
And I can't blame people who don't want to speak like if they are mocking the village imbeciles.
So, you say you are a white, English speaker, right? Where exactly do you live, if you don't mind?
You have Canada and you have French-speaking minority there. Now, let's play the game. After illegal coup, new Canadian junta declared, as the part of their policy of de-Americanisation, that French is the only legal language in Canada, and all the guys who tried to protest can be killed without asking questions (including burning alive) by French-speaking militants, hired by China. Do you believe that English-speaking Americans will or even can ignore it?

You are describing the "Ethnic Cleansing" like they had in the old Yugoslavia, Kosovo, Bosnia, etc. I have not seen that type of brutality in Ukraine. That is something that needs to be documented in the peace agreement, no "ethnic cleansing".

They don't want to buy. They want to take it for free.

Not true. The EU always paid or the energy from Russia.

Now, they need fertilizers.

True. They can also pay for it.

It depends on the way you calculate wealth.

Russia is #46

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Economy & Living Standards · Wages & incomes Data refresh: loading… People often google “median household income by country” expecting a clean global ranking. In practice, the hard part is comparability: surveys measure income or consumption differently, countries have different taxes/benefits...

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Europe and Russia both lived in peace because half of Europe was occupied by Russia, and another half - by Americans. And they remembered what happened when they go east. Both Russia and America unleashed them, and they returned to their traditional behaviour.

Not exactly. They talk bigger than they can fight. They don't have modern armies, Germany can't fill their goals.

INF treaty.

Thanks. We said Russians cheated.

Of course they are (first strike missiles). If you want retaliate - you should keep missiles on your own territory. It's safer, cheaper and more effective. There is no difference between destruction of Moscow in 15 minutes after destruction of Paris in 45 minutes. That's what we call "Reliable Second Strike Capability".

Still makes no sense to launch.

It won't work anyway.

The Ukraine peace deal needs to work or the war continues...

And they will be, at least constantly under attack of "unknown UAVs" and local rebels.

The French can defend themselves, with the Ukrainians and other NATO countries if needed.

If Ukrainian forces commit another Odessa massacre, and they will commit it, there is no way anyone can prevent Russian people, may be, including some regular military units, from attacking Ukrainians and French Peacekeepers.

There won't be another Odessa massacre. Put it in the Peace deal.

Odessa is a Russian city, and there is no way any Russian government can ignore situation in it. Can US government or White American Protestant guys ignore systematic genocide of English-speaking Canadians in, say, Alberta, committed by pro-Chinese government.

If Odessa is in Ukraine its a Ukrainian city.

Peacekeepers will be killed, and there will be escalation.

Not if Ukrainians police their country.

But still, the war seems inevitable, because you don't want peace with Russia, either.

Don't take this the wrong way, but Russia is more of a pain in the ass than they are worth.
Putin is a problem child who won't play nicely with others, he is a psycho dictator who sees Nazis behind every tree when there are none.

 

[Zavulon]

You are describing the "Ethnic Cleansing" like they had in the old Yugoslavia, Kosovo, Bosnia, etc. I have not seen that type of brutality in Ukraine.

Only because you don't want to see. Denialism is a form of support.

That is something that needs to be documented in the peace agreement, no "ethnic cleansing".

That's what we call "denazification". Equal rights for Russians, Russian-speakers, laymen of Ukrainian Orthodox Church. Ukraine and Europe definitely refused to do it, and said that they will continue "derussification of Ukraine".

Not true. The EU always paid or the energy from Russia.

They paid, but they don't want to do it. Say nothing that they had stolen our money.

True. They can also pay for it.

And they want to take it for free.

Russia is #46

Top 100 Countries by Real Median Household Income (PPP), 2025 - World ranking sites

Economy & Living Standards · Wages & incomes Data refresh: loading… People often google “median household income by country” expecting a clean global ranking. In practice, the hard part is comparability: surveys measure income or consumption differently, countries have different taxes/benefits...

statranker.org

It depends.

Not exactly. They talk bigger than they can fight. They don't have modern armies, Germany can't fill their goals.

NATO overwhelm Russia numerically as 7:1 and they can hire mercenaries in other regions. Anyway, we don't want just to win, we need to win with minimal losses.

Thanks. We said Russians cheated.
View attachment 1212556

In fact, it were Americans who openly violated it, by making armed UAVs like Reapers and Predators. They said, that Predators and Reapers are not GLCMs, because.... F#ck you, thats why.

Still makes no sense to launch.

There are two main options for launch and two main types of targets. If you want to attack first - you'd better attack fast, attack from short distance and attack ICBMs (and other nuclear forces), because if you don't kill them in few minutes - they will attack you.
If you want to retaliate and reliably hit enemies cities, you need to keep your missiles safe, and on your own territory, where the enemy can't kill them. Larger distance - safer missiles. Unlike missiles, bombers and submarines, cities can't run away.

The Ukraine peace deal needs to work or the war continues...

The war continues if we don't eradicate the very reasons for it.

The French can defend themselves, with the Ukrainians and other NATO countries if needed.

Of course it will be needed. Both French and Ukrainians will make it necessary. And it means, that all those talks about "few soldiers" is nothing but plain lie, the same lie as were your talks about NATO expansion (no inch easward) or sending military units in Eastern Europe, or non agression without permission of SC UN.

There won't be another Odessa massacre. Put it in the Peace deal.

We suggested. Ukrainians and Europeans refused. They want genocide Russians. That's what it all about.

If Odessa is in Ukraine its a Ukrainian city.

If you insist that Odessa is Ukrainian city, it makes Odessa rebellion inevitable.

Not if Ukrainians police their country.

If Ukrainains police "their" country, there will be massacres and mass murders. Without high level of violence and administrative coerction, people don't speak Ukrainian. And, of course, peacekeepers will be killed (by Ukrainians) because it is the simplest way to draw Europeans in the war.

Don't take this the wrong way, but Russia is more of a pain in the ass than they are worth.
Putin is a problem child who won't play nicely with others, he is a psycho dictator who sees Nazis behind every tree when there are none.

If you take a bush for a Nazi - you just lose few bullets. If you take a Nazi for a bush - you lose your life. And there are Nazies. Thats why they so furiously resist the very idea of giving equal rights to Russian language and Orthodox Church.

 

[kyzr]

Only because you don't want to see (ethnic cleansing). Denialism is a form of support.
That's what we call "denazification". Equal rights for Russians, Russian-speakers, laymen of Ukrainian Orthodox Church. Ukraine and Europe definitely refused to do it, and said that they will continue "derussification of Ukraine".

Just imagine a Russian city where a segment of the population was Ukrainian and was pushing to belong to Ukraine, how would Putin respond? My point is that the Ukrainians are not "ethnic cleansing" Russians in Odessa or in any other part of Ukraine. It is normal to declare a national language, here in the US its English. Minorities need to be well behaved and not push for a different national identity, like "we want to belong to Russia, not Ukraine".

They paid for oil, but they don't want to do it. Say nothing that they had stolen our money.

They paid, a win-win that should still be happening, but Russia soured the relationship.

NATO overwhelm Russia numerically as 7:1 and they can hire mercenaries in other regions. Anyway, we don't want just to win, we need to win with minimal losses.

So make peace and focus on prosperity. No one wants war. War is a stupid option.

In fact, it was Americans who openly violated it, by making armed UAVs like Reapers and Predators. They said, that Predators and Reapers are not GLCMs, because.... F#ck you, that's why.

LOL. We say that a lot, to a lot of countries, because we can.

There are two main options for launch and two main types of targets. If you want to attack first - you'd better attack fast, attack from short distance and attack ICBMs (and other nuclear forces), because if you don't kill them in few minutes - they will attack you.
If you want to retaliate and reliably hit enemy cities, you need to keep your missiles safe, and on your own territory, where the enemy can't kill them. Larger distance - safer missiles. Unlike missiles, bombers and submarines, cities can't run away.

We both know that there is no way to prevent a massive retaliatory strike, so a first strike is stupid.

The war continues if we don't eradicate the very reasons for it.

As the war continues Russia gets weaker not stronger. What do you want to "eradicate"? Russian soldiers?

Of course it will be needed. Both French and Ukrainians will make it necessary. And it means, that all those talks about "few soldiers" is nothing but plain lie, the same lie as were your talks about NATO expansion (not 1 inch eastward) or sending military units in Eastern Europe, or non aggression without permission of SC UN.

If Russia can respect Ukraine's borders, NATO will respect Russia's borders, that's how civilized countries live, not by making outrageous claims of "genocide" or "Nazis" everywhere.

We suggested (a deal for Odessa). Ukrainians and Europeans refused. They want genocide Russians. That's what it all about.

I call bullshit. If Ukraine wanted to "ethnically cleanse" Odessa, it would be clean already.

If you insist that Odessa is Ukrainian city, it makes Odessa rebellion inevitable.

Only if Russian instigators make trouble. Rebellion is never tolerated in any country.

If Ukrainians police "their" country, there will be massacres and mass murders. Without high level of violence and administrative coercion, people don't speak Ukrainian. And, of course, peacekeepers will be killed (by Ukrainians) because it is the simplest way to draw Europeans in the war.

Nonsense. If there were Russian loyalists in Ukraine they would be fighting Ukrainians, and there are no Russian pockets of resistance in Ukraine, even in Odessa. You are making a fake claim.

If you take a bush for a Nazi - you just lose few bullets. If you take a Nazi for a bush - you lose your life. And there are Nazis. That's why they so furiously resist the very idea of giving equal rights to Russian language and Orthodox Church.

All majorities put restrictions on minorities, that's how nationalism and sovereignty works.

 

[Zavulon]

Just imagine a Russian city where a segment of the population was Ukrainian and was pushing to belong to Ukraine, how would Putin respond?

Actually, there are regions were are Ukrainian population. But Russia respect their human rights and has Ukrainian as official language there.

My point is that the Ukrainians are not "ethnic cleansing" Russians in Odessa or in any other part of Ukraine.

Your point is wrong. Derussification is official policy of Kievan regime and their EU sponsors.

It is normal to declare a national language, here in the US its English. Minorities need to be well behaved and not push for a different national identity, like "we want to belong to Russia, not Ukraine".

No. Normal is to respect human rights, including languages of people, living in the state. Canada has French as one of official languages and US government when necessary has Spanish versions of their documents. Government should work for people, not people change themselves for the government. That's what we call "democracy".

So make peace and focus on prosperity. No one wants war. War is a stupid option.

They want war.

We both know that there is no way to prevent a massive retaliatory strike, so a first strike is stupid.

C'mon. Right now you have only two SSBNs in Atlantic - USS "West Virginia", which is shadowed by a Russian attacking submarine, and USS "Wyoming" which left the base at Jan, 24 and still didn't reached her patrol area

As the war continues Russia gets weaker not stronger. What do you want to "eradicate"? Russian soldiers?

Ukrainian Nazies, and, if necessary Europeans and/or Americans.

If Russia can respect Ukraine's borders, NATO will respect Russia's borders, that's how civilized countries live, not by making outrageous claims of "genocide" or "Nazis" everywhere.

I call bullshit. If Ukraine wanted to "ethnically cleanse" Odessa, it would be clean already.

Only if Russian instigators make trouble. Rebellion is never tolerated in any country.

Nonsense. If there were Russian loyalists in Ukraine they would be fighting Ukrainians, and there are no Russian pockets of resistance in Ukraine,

There are. They just prefer spying and sabitaging for Russia. They wait to be liberated. But if they think they are on their own, they will fight by themselves. Say nothing about Ukrainian SBU who need to draw Europe and America in war.

All majorities put restrictions on minorities, that's how nationalism and sovereignty works.

When people see themselves too discriminatated - they have right to rebel.

 

[kyzr]

Actually, there are regions in Russia with Ukrainian populations. But Russia respects their human rights and has Ukrainian as official language there.

OK, that is what we call "tolerance". But those Ukrainian populations in Russia are not fighting Russia, they probably consider themselves Ukrainian speaking Russians, correct? That is how its supposed to work.

Your point is wrong. Derussification is official policy of Kiev regime and their EU sponsors.

Did Ukraine round up Russians and deport or kill them? NO. So there is no "ethnic cleansing" in Ukraine.
Does Kiev prohibit speaking or publishing in Russian? I don't think so.

No. Normal is to respect human rights, including languages of people, living in the state. Canada has French as one of official languages and US government when necessary has Spanish versions of their documents. Government should work for people, not people change themselves for the government. That's what we call "democracy".

True. That is what we call "diversity".

They want war.

No one wants war but Putin.

C'mon. Right now you have only two SSBNs in Atlantic - USS "West Virginia", which is shadowed by a Russian attacking submarine, and USS "Wyoming" which left the base at Jan, 24 and still didn't reached her patrol area

The US has 18 subs for launching nuclear response missiles, good luck trying to neutralize any of them before that first strike.

Eliminate Ukrainian Nazis, and, if necessary Europeans and/or Americans.

How is that goal holding up after 4-years? Better rethink it. A peaceful Ukraine is better than continued war for no real gain.

There are. They just prefer spying and sabotaging for Russia. They wait to be liberated. But if they think they are on their own, they will fight by themselves. Say nothing about Ukrainian SBU who need to draw Europe and America in war.

So you say, but they must be very small in number, if they even exist. Not a factor in the war.

When people see themselves too discriminated - they have right to rebel.

True, but when the majority kicks their ass they either conform or emigrate.

 

[Zavulon]

OK, that is what we call "tolerance". But those Ukrainian populations in Russia are not fighting Russia, they probably consider themselves Ukrainian speaking Russians, correct? That is how its supposed to work.

No. They usually consider themselves Russian-speaking, ethnic Ukrainians, citizens of Russian Federation. Like, there are English-speaking, ethnic Irishmen, citizens of the United States. Nobody actually speaks "official Ukrainian" (Derjavna mova - State's Language) as his first language. "Official Ukrainian" is an artificial language, created mostly in 1920-30s for political reason, as a far-left experiment of "positive discrimination and forced tolerance", based on the, mostly, on the two large groups of dialects of Small Russia. In their villages people speak their native dialects (like "Lvivska gvara" in Lvov region, "Poltavskiy surjik" in Poltava region, Slobojanski in villages of Northern Ukraine, etc...), in cities, when they free to choose, people prefer to speak normal Russian (especially in the age of book-printing, radio, TV, internet).

You know, there are such guys as Cajoons. Now imagine, that some far-left freaks invented Louisiana's Language by mixing Cajoon's English and Cajoon's French and force everybody in Louisiana Republic (artificially created on the territory of former Louisiana Colony) study it in attempt to build "Louisianian identity" or something.
How many people would actually speak it without being forced.

Did Ukraine round up Russians and deport or kill them?

Yes. There was Odessa Massacre, there were mass murders of Russian activists, there was shelling of Donbass.

Does Kiev prohibit speaking or publishing in Russian?

Yes. No publishing in Russian, no TV-shows in Russian (before Maidan 90% of TV shows were in Russian), no public speach for any official or service personnel in Russian, no teaching in schools in Russian, no public reproduction of Russian music, etc...

True. That is what we call "diversity".

Russian Federation value "diversity". Ukrainian Nazies do understand that in equal opportunity society Ukrainian and all other rural dialects are fading and official Ukrainian is losing to official Russian in cities.

No one wants war but Putin.

And who are Russians (in your universe) - a horde of bloodthristy monsters, who just enjoy killing, raping and pillage or a gang of brainwashed zombies, without even a trace of their own will and magically controlled by the Dark Lord?

In both cases you just prove that peace deal is impossible and we shouldn't make it. No sane person can make a deal with bloodthristy monsters, and, of course, no sane person makes peace with guys who actually believe that they are monsters.

If you want a peace (and I believe, you, actually, don't), first of all, you should understand that Russians are human beings with their minds and reasons. And when we kill somebody, we don't do it because a flick of imagination or because we enjoy killing. We do it because we have pretty good reasons to do it, our reasons are rational and we are much better informed than you.

The US has 18 subs for launching nuclear response missiles, good luck trying to neutralize any of them before that first strike.

But, most of them in bases. Some are in Pacific. Right now there are only two of them in Atlantic, only one of them, "West Virginia", is on hard duty and in 15-minute readiness, and it is shadowed by an attacking submarine, and, highly likely will be killed just before the war is started. Anyway, the salvo of one SSBN highly likely, will be intercepted by Moscow ABD.

How is that goal holding up after 4-years?

Quite good. Most of adult male Ukrainians are already killed or left the country. In few more years the rest of them will be killed, too.

Better rethink it. A peaceful Ukraine is better than continued war for no real gain.

We do want peaceful Ukraine, neutral, non-threating and with equal safety and equal rights for everyone. But it is NATO who doesn't want it.

So you say, but they must be very small in number, if they even exist. Not a factor in the war.

Of course, no. "One Ukrainian is a cheapskate, two Ukrainians are a guerilla squad, and three Ukrainians are a guerilla squad with a traitor." It is the most important factor in fratricidal wars.

True, but when the majority kicks their ass they either conform or emigrate.

Or they fight back and call foreign power to help them (as it was with, say, Albanians in Kosovo, Kurds in Iraq and Syria, Americans in British Empire, Americans in Mexico, et cetera...)

 

[kyzr]

No. They usually consider themselves Russian-speaking, ethnic Ukrainians, citizens of Russian Federation. Like, there are English-speaking, ethnic Irishmen, citizens of the United States. Nobody actually speaks "official Ukrainian" (Derjavna mova - State's Language) as his first language. "Official Ukrainian" is an artificial language, created mostly in 1920-30s for political reason, as a far-left experiment of "positive discrimination and forced tolerance", based on the, mostly, on the two large groups of dialects of Small Russia. In their villages people speak their native dialects (like "Lvivska gvara" in Lvov region, "Poltavskiy surjik" in Poltava region, Slobojanski in villages of Northern Ukraine, etc...), in cities, when they free to choose, people prefer to speak normal Russian (especially in the age of book-printing, radio, TV, internet).

We Americans don't appreciate the advantage we have all speaking the same language. Hispanics can speak Spanish, but mostly the national language is in all workplaces and on the major TV networks, and in the military. In Europe there are many dialects even in the same country. Stalin was a Ukrainian, so how did he get to rule Russia if he didn't speak Russian?

You know, there are such guys as Cajuns. Now imagine, that some far-left freaks invented Louisiana's Language by mixing Cajun's English and Cajun's French and force everybody in Louisiana Republic (artificially created on the territory of former Louisiana Colony) study it in attempt to build "Louisianian identity" or something. How many people would actually speak it without being forced.

Cajuns are crazy. They wrestle alligators. True their ethnicity is French, and some may speak some weird French dialect, but I doubt that anyone from Quebec would understand them. To your point, a tiny Cajun minority dialect is much different than a country like Ukraine having a national language.

Yes. There was Odessa Massacre, there were mass murders of Russian activists, there was shelling of Donbas.

No mass murder, 48 people died from both sides when Pro-Russians fought with Pro-Unity Ukrainians. The shelling of Donbas happened from both sides. Point being there was no round up of Russians like the Nazis rounded up Jews.

Yes. No publishing in Russian, no TV-shows in Russian (before Maidan 90% of TV shows were in Russian), no public speach for any official or service personnel in Russian, no teaching in schools in Russian, no public reproduction of Russian music, etc...

OK, Ukraine is at war with Russia. I don't blame them for prohibiting all things Russian.

Russian Federation value "diversity". Ukrainian Nazis do understand that in equal opportunity society Ukrainian and all other rural dialects are fading and official Ukrainian is losing to official Russian in cities.

Just the opposite since the 2022 Russian invasion.

And who are Russians (in your universe) - a horde of blood-thristy monsters, who just enjoy killing, raping and pillage or a gang of brainwashed zombies, without even a trace of their own will and magically controlled by the Dark Lord?

Russians in our universe are victims of Putin, it started off with prosperity, but without adequate "checks and balances" he consolidated power and became a vicious dictator. That is why we always limit the power of US presidents.

Why Did Modern Russia Turn Into An Authoritarian State: Was It Putin Or The People?

-Analysis-

worldcrunch.com

In both cases you just prove that peace deal is impossible and we shouldn't make it. No sane person can make a deal with blood-thristy monsters, and, of course, no sane person makes peace with guys who actually believe that they are monsters.

Not "monsters", one monster.

If you want a peace (and I believe, you, actually, don't), first of all, you should understand that Russians are human beings with their minds and reasons. And when we kill somebody, we don't do it because a flick of imagination or because we enjoy killing. We do it because we have pretty good reasons to do it, our reasons are rational and we are much better informed than you.

Not true. Putin controls all information, so what you know is what he wants you to know and think.

But, most US subs are in bases. Some are in Pacific. Right now there are only two of them in Atlantic, only one of them, "West Virginia", is on hard duty and in 15-minute readiness, and it is shadowed by an attacking submarine, and, highly likely will be killed just before the war is started. Anyway, the salvo of one SSBN highly likely, will be intercepted by Moscow ABD.

Best idea is not to tempt fate. As we say here "shit happens" meaning the unexpected.

The SMO's objectives are still Quite good. Most of adult male Ukrainians are already killed or left the country. In few more years the rest of them will be killed, too.

Never let reality crudely interrupt a pleasant dream.

We do want peaceful Ukraine, neutral, non-threatening and with equal safety and equal rights for everyone. But it is NATO who doesn't want it.

We want what the Ukrainians want. They want independence from Russia and are fighting for it.

Of course, not. "One Ukrainian is a cheapskate, two Ukrainians are a guerilla squad, and three Ukrainians are a guerilla squad with a traitor." It is the most important factor in fratricidal wars.

If there are any Russian militias in Ukraine they must be in their basements.

Or they fight back and call foreign power to help them (as it was with, say, Albanians in Kosovo, Kurds in Iraq and Syria, Americans in British Empire, Americans in Mexico, etc...)

Not sure what your "Americans in Mexico" refers to. The Alamo? Texans didn't need any foreign help kicking Santa Anna's ass.
Americans had the Revolutionary war won before the French navy showed up, but there were several brave Europeans who helped win, like Marquis de Lafayette from France, who became a major general in the Continental Army, and Baron von Steuben from Prussia, who played a crucial role in training American troops. Other significant figures include Kazimierz Pulaski and Thaddeus Kosciuszko.
The US wanted ISIS dead, the Kurds were helpful, we didn't "help the Kurds".
Point being a major power uses the minority as a pretext, not helping them out of charity.

 

[Zavulon]

We Americans don't appreciate the advantage we have all speaking the same language. Hispanics can speak Spanish, but mostly the national language is in all workplaces and on the major TV networks, and in the military. In Europe there are many dialects even in the same country. Stalin was a Ukrainian, so how did he get to rule Russia if he didn't speak Russian?

Stalin wasn't Ukrainian. He was a Georgian. Some say a "Georgian Jew", and Georgia was a part of Russian Empire. Of course he did speak Russian. As well as an Irish Biden ruled the USA.
And, this your obsession with personalities... Stalin didn't actully "rule" Russia. As any other politician he was more a "talking head" for influencers behind him.

Cajuns are crazy. They wrestle alligators. True their ethnicity is French, and some may speak some weird French dialect, but I doubt that anyone from Quebec would understand them. To your point, a tiny Cajun minority dialect is much different than a country like Ukraine having a national language.

"Lvivska gvara" (actual first language of some Western Ukrainians, like my Grandmom) is barely more popular than Cajun's French. And forcing people in Arkansas speak artificial mixture of Cajun French and Cajun English is, at very least, stupid.

No mass murder, 48 people died from both sides when Pro-Russians fought with Pro-Unity Ukrainians. The shelling of Donbas happened from both sides. Point being there was no round up of Russians like the Nazis rounded up Jews.

Do you think that few thousands of Americans, killed in 911 terroristic act, didn't justificate American war on terror, caused death of millions of Muslims? C'mon, it's just a natural reaction.

"WE are under attack. THEY attacked us, and THEY killed some of us. WE have to defend ourselves. And defending ourselves means, that we should beat them until THEY understand that killing US is totally unacceptable, or till THEY all are dead."

When you say something like: "THEY have right to kill YOU", it means, that you became one of THEM, and part of the threat. And it means, that WE have to beat you into submission, too.

OK, Ukraine is at war with Russia. I don't blame them for prohibiting all things Russian.

But we do. And the peace (reliable, lasting peace) can't be established without end of discrimination of Russian language and Orthodox Church.

Russians in our universe are victims of Putin, it started off with prosperity, but without adequate "checks and balances" he consolidated power and became a vicious dictator. That is why we always limit the power of US presidents.

Why Did Modern Russia Turn Into An Authoritarian State: Was It Putin Or The People?

-Analysis-

worldcrunch.com

Not "monsters", one monster.

Wow. Looks like, Putin in your "Fake News World" is even less realistic than Sauron in "The Rings of Power" world. Some kind of supernatural creature, a demon in human form, who's dark magic directly control innumerable hordes of mindless zombies. May be, something like King of Night from "The Game of Thrones". Really stupid conception, and that's how they'd ruined the last season....

Anyway, if you really think that way, it is quite obvious you can't make peace neither with The Monster, nor with mindless zombies who fell under his control and all your "peace-dealing efforts" is nothing but a trick and a part of your preparation to the larger war or some sophisticated plan.
And it means, that we should attack you, before your complex and sophisticated attack started.

Not true. Putin controls all information, so what you know is what he wants you to know and think.

Wow! It's twenty-first centure. No single person can control "all information". I'm talking with you, and, I hope, Putin doesn't control you. Does he?

Best idea is not to tempt fate. As we say here "shit happens" meaning the unexpected.

Sometimes attacking first is much better than waiting for opponent's first move.

We want what the Ukrainians want. They want independence from Russia and are fighting for it.

We live in codependent world. And they can't be independent from Russia, because they live in Russia. Ukraine is a part of Russia as Canada and California are parts of America. If they want to build "Ukraine without Russians" they have either go in Saskatchewan, or genocide all Russians (in Ukraine, Belarus and the Russian Federation).

If there are any Russian militias in Ukraine they must be in their basements.

Of course no. They should participate in the ruling of their country. "No taxation without representation", don't you remember?

Not sure what your "Americans in Mexico" refers to. The Alamo? Texans didn't need any foreign help kicking Santa Anna's ass.

I mean American-Mexican war.

Americans had the Revolutionary war won before the French navy showed up, but there were several brave Europeans who helped win, like Marquis de Lafayette from France, who became a major general in the Continental Army, and Baron von Steuben from Prussia, who played a crucial role in training American troops. Other significant figures include Kazimierz Pulaski and Thaddeus Kosciuszko.

And the whole American Revolutionary war was just a little part of the bigger European game. One can say, that Continental powers used American separatists to fight British Empire, or that American separatists used European powers to fight British oppression and get their freedom.

The US wanted ISIS dead, the Kurds were helpful, we didn't "help the Kurds".

The Kurds (from their own point of view) were oppressed by regimes of Saddam and Assad. They fought them, and they found mighty foreign allies. "You help me, I help you" in the fight against our common enemy.

Point being a major power uses the minority as a pretext, not helping them out of charity.

Usually, yes. Like Americans use Ukrainians as pretext to fight Russia. Especially if this minority is not seem as "you". And you'll throw them to the wolves as you did with Kurds, Southern Vietnamese, "democratic Afghans" and many, many others.

But if Canadian French speaking pro-Chinese gangs commit coup de grace, and then mass-murders of English-speaking Canadians, and people in Alberta take weapons in their hands to defend themselves, will you help them because of oil of Alberta, because you see Chinese influence in Canada as a direct and vital threat to the USA, or simply because THEY (dangerous aliens) attacked YOU (and you see english-speaking Albertians as part of YOU (White Anglo-Saxon Protestants of America)?
I suppose you will help them anyway, without any additional "magic influence".

 

[Zavulon]

And, kyzr , from your own article:

Russians are not victims. Russians love to live in safety and prosperity and ready defend their life style with weapons in their hands. And that's why you blame them for defending their basic human rights.

We fight for what is right

 

[Zavulon]

Talking about your article, it actually just a replay of classic Goebbels rethoric - "Russians are Untermenchen, and that is why they choose comminists, (instead of submission to the civilised Europeans, giving them everything they have, including their land and their bodies, and then march in disciplined collums into German ovens, as they suppose to do according European vision)."

If you actually think this way, you are a Nazi too, and we are not going to liberate America for you. We are going to liberate it from you.

 

[kyzr]

And, kyzr , from your own article:
View attachment 1213285
Russians are not victims. Russians love to live in safety and prosperity and ready defend their life style with weapons in their hands. And that's why you blame them for defending their basic human rights. We fight for what is right

But you danced around the fact that Putin consolidated power and became the dictator he is today.
Putin is one of the richest men in the world, just by stealing Russia's wealth.
You fight for what Putin tells you to fight for, right or wrong.
Invading Ukraine was wrong, Ukrainians want to live in safety and prosperity too, and they are defending their country quite nicely.

 

[kyzr]

Talking about your article, it actually just a replay of classic Goebbels rhetoric - "Russians are Untermenchen, and that is why they choose communism, (instead of submission to the civilised Europeans, giving them everything they have, including their land and their bodies, and then march in disciplined columns into German ovens, as they are suppose to do according European vision)."

There is no EU "vision" of Russians marching into German ovens. That is classic Goebbels propaganda. Russia has a border and an army, so what are you afraid of? You should be afraid of faulty logic.

If you actually think this way, you are a Nazi too, and we are not going to liberate America for you. We are going to liberate it from you.

Bad logic. Russians are fine in Russia. There are no Nazis. When Russians threaten war we all push them back into Russia.
As for liberating America, don't make jokes, you guys can't liberate Kyiv after 4-years.

 

[kyzr]

Stalin wasn't Ukrainian. He was a Georgian. Some say a "Georgian Jew", and Georgia was a part of Russian Empire. Of course he did speak Russian. As well as an Irish Biden ruled the USA. And, this your obsession with personalities... Stalin didn't actually "rule" Russia. As any other politician he was more a "talking head" for influencers behind him.

Stalin's policies killed 20 million Russians. 27 million more Russians died from WW2. You would think that Russians would be more careful picking rulers.

Do you think that few thousands of Americans, killed in 9/11 terror act, didn't justify American war on terror, caused death of millions of Muslims? C'mon, it's just a natural reaction.

True. Iran is getting close to regime change to end terrorism funded by Iran.

"WE are under attack. THEY attacked us, and THEY killed some of us. WE have to defend ourselves. And defending ourselves means, that we should beat them until THEY understand that killing US is totally unacceptable, or till THEY all are dead."

See, that's where we disagree. Russia is not under attack. Ukraine is an independent country, except for a few "rebel loyalists" who prefer to belong to Russia. Ukraine puts down "minor uprisings". Putin uses those ethnic (Russian v Ukrainian) riots as a pretext for invasion. But actually, how Ukraine polices its country is none of Putin's business. People that live in a country need to be loyal to that country or leave.

When you say something like: "THEY have right to kill YOU", it means, that you became one of THEM, and part of the threat. And it means, that WE have to beat you into submission, too.

They have the right to defend their county from invaders. We all signed the Budapest Memorandum guaranteeing Ukraine's security. You can't beat anyone into submission, so stop trying. You're just getting too many young men killed for no reason.

Wow. Looks like, Putin in your "Fake News World" is even less realistic than Sauron in "The Rings of Power" world. Some kind of supernatural creature, a demon in human form, who's dark magic directly control innumerable hordes of mindless zombies. May be, something like King of Night from "The Game of Thrones". Really stupid conception, and that's how they'd ruined the last season....

I'm surprised you are so current with US culture. We agree on the last season of GOT, but it was a great HBO series.

Anyway, if you really think that way, it is quite obvious you can't make peace neither with The Monster, nor with mindless zombies who fell under his control and all your "peace-dealing efforts" is nothing but a trick and a part of your preparation to the larger war or some sophisticated plan. And it means, that we should attack you, before your complex and sophisticated attack started.

Oh please. Better check under your bed for monsters tonight.

Wow! It's twenty-first century. No single person can control "all information". I'm talking with you, and, I hope, Putin doesn't control you. Does he?

No. But I am curious how you have internet access. OK, AI says 85% of Russians use the internet, but:
"Major platforms like Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter have been blocked since the invasion of Ukraine in 2022."

Sometimes attacking first is much better than waiting for opponent's first move.

Nuclear war is never better.

We live in codependent world. And they can't be independent from Russia, because they live in Russia. Ukraine is a part of Russia as Canada and California are parts of America. If they want to build "Ukraine without Russians" they have either go in Saskatchewan, or genocide all Russians (in Ukraine, Belarus and the Russian Federation).

They want to build a Ukraine independent of Russia. The EU has a much better economic system than Russia.

I meant American-Mexican War.

OK, we didn't need any foreign help with that war. Won a lot of territory.
The Mexican-American War was a conflict between the United States and Mexico from 1846 to 1848, primarily over territorial disputes following the U.S. annexation of Texas. The war resulted in significant territorial gains for the U.S., including present-day California, Arizona, New Mexico, and parts of several other states, solidifying the concept of Manifest Destiny

And the whole American Revolutionary war was just a little part of the bigger European game. One can say, that Continental powers used American separatists to fight British Empire, or that American separatists used European powers to fight British oppression and get their freedom.

Actually the war in Ukraine is quite similar isn't it? Ukraine is fighting Russia forcing Russia (expansionist British Empire) to spend men and money weakening it so it is not a serious threat to NATO.

The Kurds were oppressed by regimes of Saddam and Assad. They fought them, and they found mighty foreign allies. "You help me, I help you" in the fight against our common enemy.

The Kurds have no luck, they are scattered and get hammered by everyone, Turkey kills them, Assad kills them, Iran kills them, and Saddam gassed them. Kurdistan vanished. But Trump gave the Kurds a few oil fields to sustain "Kurdistan".

Read the Latest News About Kurdistan Oil | The Kurdish Project

Oil in Kurdistan is an important issue between the KRG and the Iraqi government. Read the latest news about Kurdistan oil at the Kurdish Project.

thekurdishproject.org

Usually, yes. Like Americans use Ukrainians as pretext to fight Russia. Especially if this minority is not seem as "you". And you'll throw them to the wolves as you did with Kurds, Southern Vietnamese, "democratic Afghans" and many, many others.

Is Ukraine a "Proxy War" for the US and NATO? Probably.
We didn't throw the Kurds to the wolves we gave them oil fields and saved them for helping us defeat ISIS.

 

[Zavulon]

But you danced around the fact that Putin consolidated power and became the dictator he is today.

Because he didn't it. As every human being he can't control more than five other human beings. Everything else is just how people in the system act. And given Putin's age and intellectual capabilities he hardly can be anything but a talking head for decision-makers.

Putin is one of the richest men in the world, just by stealing Russia's wealth.

Even if he is stealing, he is stealing from common profits, not from common losses, as Western politicians. During his rule, average wealth of Russian people significantly increased.

You fight for what Putin tells you to fight for, right or wrong.

C'mon. I'm many ranks lower than Putin. He doesn't give me any orders at least directly. I fight for my money and my family (including my cousins in Ukraine).

Invading Ukraine was wrong, Ukrainians want to live in safety and prosperity too, and they are defending their country quite nicely.

They want to earn "the sovereign right to supress and kill Russians" and to earn Western money. If they want to live - they shouldn't kill Russians (or make any preparations to do so), which means our demands for denazification, demilitarisation and neutral status. Look at Georgians - they studied their lesson in 2008 that it is not OK to kill Russians, and now they are safe and wealthy. Killing Russians and stealing Russian property is not a proper way to get safety and wealth.

 

[Zavulon]

Stalin's policies killed 20 million Russians. 27 million more Russians died from WW2. You would think that Russians would be more careful picking rulers.

Given the nature of our dear "non-Nazi" European neighbours, it was definitely the lesser evil.

See, that's where we disagree. Russia is not under attack. Ukraine is an independent country, except for a few "rebel loyalists" who prefer to belong to Russia. Ukraine puts down "minor uprisings". Putin uses those ethnic (Russian v Ukrainian) riots as a pretext for invasion. But actually, how Ukraine polices its country is none of Putin's business.

You don't know a fig about both Russian and/or Ukraine and try to lecture somebody who is much better informed.

People that live in a country need to be loyal to that country or leave.

Really? Was it the same way right for subjects of British crown, living in American colonies, Texas, living in Mexico, to Albanians, living in Serbia, Kurds and Arabs in Iraq, Iran and Syria? Do you actually believe that people shouldn't fight against despotic, discriminative, abusive and literally genicidal regimes? Or you just turned on your racist regime, and say that Russians don't have basic human rights?
BTW, do Russians have the Right of Rebellion against Putin's regime?

They have the right to defend their county from invaders.

Yep. And we have right to kill them for killing us.

We all signed the Budapest Memorandum guaranteeing Ukraine's security. You can't beat anyone into submission, so stop trying.

Of course we can. And we do it.

You're just getting too many young men killed for no reason.

Oh my. You just said that Russians are mindless creatures, who doesn't know what is good and what is bad for them.

I'm surprised you are so current with US culture. We agree on the last season of GOT, but it was a great HBO series.

It was. We are Russians, we are taking whatever we like, especially, talking about cultural and intellectual things. And I'm not surprised that you are not current with Russian culture (given the nature of American regime, who keep Americans in darkness and feed them with shit). Talking about movies, there was a nice movie "The Last Paladin", among other things, reundersating visual conception of GOT (and some other Hollywood masterpieces). And in this movie, Kashey The Undead (the visual heir of King of Night)is a good guy.

Oh please. Better check under your bed for monsters tonight.

It was you, who said that Putin is a monster. Did you change your mind?

No. But I am curious how you have internet access. OK, AI says 85% of Russians use the internet, but:
"Major platforms like Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter have been blocked since the invasion of Ukraine in 2022."

Wow. You can't be serious. Russia is much more developed country (talking about internet) than the USA. First of all, we have our own platforms, plus neutral grounds like Telegram. Second - if you want something, you can always use VPN or other ways to get access. USMB is also blocked, so I use VPN.

Nuclear war is never better.

Stop being that nucleophobic. Nuclear war is practically unavoidable, and the only question is who will win it and with what losses.

OK, we didn't need any foreign help with that war. Won a lot of territory.

Unrecognised Repubic of Texas asked for the foreign help from the USA. Technically, the USA were a foreign land for Texas until it's annexation.

Actually the war in Ukraine is quite similar isn't it? Ukraine is fighting Russia forcing Russia (expansionist British Empire) to spend men and money weakening it so it is not a serious threat to NATO.

That is why we need to bring war in Europe and in the USA to coerce you into peace.

Is Ukraine a "Proxy War" for the US and NATO? Probably.

Exactly. And you'll stop support them when your heartlands are in significant danger.
What do you think about nuclear destruction of Chicago? Or about another civil war?

 

[Zavulon]

And if you say, that Russians should rebel against regime defending Russian people and obey regime killing Russian people, it is pretty equal to saying that Russians should march in disciplined collums directly in the European gas chambers and ovens.

 

[Zavulon]

As one of my Ukrainian friends wrote:
---------------
If we look at the entire prehistory of the conflict between Russia and Ukraine, the biggest surprise for me is the fact that there wasn't a single politician in Ukraine who would say something like this:

"We are persistently provoking an armed conflict with Russia. If it happens, what will our country gain from it? We won't be able to win, but maybe we'll get some benefits? What benefits?"

And this is the main question. Because from the very beginning, it was clear that there was no benefit for Ukraine in conflict with Russia. There are benefits for Western countries and the USA, but Ukraine, having taken on all the dirty work, not only gets no benefits, but also loses a lot (people, territory, industry, energy, money, markets, and even remnants of sovereignty).

But there wasn't anyone who asked the simple question: "Why are we doing this?" And if someone had asked, then perhaps an obvious answer would have occurred to them: "Our government has betrayed and sold out the people. We will be sacrificed and destroyed for the sake of foreign interests, under the guise of the greatness of the nation and the necessity of hating Russia." It's like throwing a fighting rooster into the ring, watching the fight with excitement and placing bets. But what does the rooster ultimately get? In the end, it dies, bleeding, and behind the fence, another rooster is being prepared, ready to fight to the death, only to get nothing in the end.

This is the largest deception since the Second World War. "Because we're not slaves. We're fools." And now, it turns out that we're not just fools, but slaves as well.
------------------------

Do they have right to rebel against Kievan regime?