wind power, winning all the way

[Abraham3]

Absent a MAJOR legislative push from the government that drives fossil fuel generators out of business, wind is going to die within the next 15 years.

And I'm certain you have a peer-reviewed study published in a "real grown-up journal" to back that up, right?

It is unreliable and grotesquely expensive for what you get.

And I'm certain you have a peer-reviewed study published in a "real grown-up journal" to back that up, right? I particularly want to see the part about a system with zero fuel costs being "grotesquely expensive".

It does nothing to reduce the carbon footprint

Really? Medic! Medic! We need a reality check over here ASAP!

and murders endangered bird species at a rate far, far above every other source of avian lethality on this planet.

And I'm certain you have a peer-reviewed study published in a "real grown-up journal" to back that up, right?

Yes, don't bother to trot that "study" out that shows buildings kill between 3 million and 60 million birds...any study that has that huge a variance is simply not credible in any scientific field. And even if it were true, those are NOT rare and endangered raptors being killed.

So you want to ignore the study that shows a MINIMUM of 3 millions birds killed annually by buildings because it might actually be as high as 60 million. Got it. And is it your vast experience in the scientific field that allows you to tell us what sort of variance is and is not acceptable in any of them? I had no idea. You certainly hide your light under a bushel and a half! And this is an amazing revelation! Buildings are able to DISCRIMINATE as to which species they kill! That is amazing - absolutely FUCKING amazing.

Windmills alone kill those types of birds.

Oh, this is getting funny. I'm certain you have a peer-reviewed study published in a "real grown-up journal" to back that up, right?

And also don't forget the millions of bats killed every year too. They don't get killed by buildings (sonar helps them avoid them don't you know) at all....but they are chopped to bits by windmills.

Millions? And, to BITS? Really? Bits?!? Are you thinking what I'm thinking? Dick Van Dyke in "Mary Poppins"? No? Too bad.

 

[Derideo_Te]

I'm glad it worked out for the seals but they could have installed screens. But it sounds like that would have put a bunch of people out of work.

The screens would have drowned the seals.

They were college kids and retired folks mostly.

Were they volunteers or paid? I thought you said "hired". So they were worried about the seals getting chopped up but decided against screens for fear of drowning them? Sounds like you are making things up as you go along.

Nope, the screens would have pinned the seals underwater so they would have drowned which is why they didn't want to use them.

 

[Iceweasel]

The screens would have drowned the seals.

They were college kids and retired folks mostly.

Were they volunteers or paid? I thought you said "hired". So they were worried about the seals getting chopped up but decided against screens for fear of drowning them? Sounds like you are making things up as you go along.

Nope, the screens would have pinned the seals underwater so they would have drowned which is why they didn't want to use them.

That's what I thought, you're making it up. It makes no sense.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Were they volunteers or paid? I thought you said "hired". So they were worried about the seals getting chopped up but decided against screens for fear of drowning them? Sounds like you are making things up as you go along.

Nope, the screens would have pinned the seals underwater so they would have drowned which is why they didn't want to use them.

That's what I thought, you're making it up. It makes no sense.

Do you understand what a vortex is?

 

[Iceweasel]

Do you understand what a vortex is?

Do you understand anything? A screen would offer a chance whereas getting sucked in wouldn't. You're full of it. Your story isn't credible.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Do you understand what a vortex is?

Do you understand anything? A screen would offer a chance whereas getting sucked in wouldn't. You're full of it. Your story isn't credible.

Read and learn!

http://inhabitat.com/northern-irelands-seagen-tidal-turbine-gets-environmental-approval/

Despite the 1.2 MW turbine operating in Northern Ireland’s Strangford Lough since 2008, it is only now that the SeaGen has got the environmental seal of approval despite having had no significant effect on the local environment thus far. In the report, it was noted that the local seal and porpoise population regarded the turbine with “no concern” and they generally avoided it.

“This is the most comprehensive study of the environmental impact of marine energy devices undertaken anywhere in the world,” says David Erwin, the chair of the SeaGen Scientific Group.

Frank Fortune, technical director at Royal Haskoning, concurred saying that the findings indicate that SeaGen will be able to continue to operate with no significant impacts on the local marine environment.

Northern Ireland’s Environment Minister, Alex Attwood, commented, “Marine Current Turbines has proven that the power of the seas can be harnessed in harmony with marine life. The results of their work will give everyone greater confidence in realising the economic and environmental benefits that tidal and wave energy can offer.”

 

[Iceweasel]

Do you understand what a vortex is?

Do you understand anything? A screen would offer a chance whereas getting sucked in wouldn't. You're full of it. Your story isn't credible.

Read and learn!

I didn't say they didn't exist, the rest of your story sounds sketchy. Spotters would let them know when a seal was coming so they could be stopped? That doesn't sound possible. It hasn't proven itself to be worthwhile anyway. Nice attempt but I suspect something better will come along.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Do you understand anything? A screen would offer a chance whereas getting sucked in wouldn't. You're full of it. Your story isn't credible.

Read and learn!

I didn't say they didn't exist, the rest of your story sounds sketchy. Spotters would let them know when a seal was coming so they could be stopped? That doesn't sound possible. It hasn't proven itself to be worthwhile anyway. Nice attempt but I suspect something better will come along.

You either didn't read the article or didn't comprehend it.

 

[Iceweasel]

Read and learn!

I didn't say they didn't exist, the rest of your story sounds sketchy. Spotters would let them know when a seal was coming so they could be stopped? That doesn't sound possible. It hasn't proven itself to be worthwhile anyway. Nice attempt but I suspect something better will come along.

You either didn't read the article or didn't comprehend it.

You either didn't read my response or you can't comprehend it. I was talking about your post. You said "A friend of mine is a marine biologist and was part of a study for a tidal powered energy generator. The local environmentalists were seriously concerned that the seals would be sucked in and "chopped to bits" especially during high tide when the current was flowing the strongest and the most energy was being generated. They posters "spotters" on the equipment and along the shoreline to give warnings when they saw a seal so that the equipment could be immediately shut down and no seals would be harmed.

This study lasted for 9 months without a single warning or shutdown and yet not a single seal was ever harmed. The reason was simple. The seals didn't waste their energy swimming at high tide. Instead they were all taking naps. They knew that it took more energy to swim at high tide than slack tide so they just stayed out of the water."

I'd like to know how they can see into the water so clearly, how they can stop giant blades instantly and why those seals don't swin at high tide when the ones here do. Not against the current but they do, I've been in a kayak and see them in action. So the story makes no sense to me.

 

[westwall]

Ok, I will take that bet! The reason is because people said the same things about airports and birds and yet now we have birds who nest on airports.

Personally I think the windmills should be located offshore because the wind is more constant in those locations and there are millions of seagulls and no bats.

A friend of mine is a marine biologist and was part of a study for a tidal powered energy generator. The local environmentalists were seriously concerned that the seals would be sucked in and "chopped to bits" especially during high tide when the current was flowing the strongest and the most energy was being generated. They posters "spotters" on the equipment and along the shoreline to give warnings when they saw a seal so that the equipment could be immediately shut down and no seals would be harmed.

This study lasted for 9 months without a single warning or shutdown and yet not a single seal was ever harmed. The reason was simple. The seals didn't waste their energy swimming at high tide. Instead they were all taking naps. They knew that it took more energy to swim at high tide than slack tide so they just stayed out of the water.

Yes, there are birds being killed but we have had windmills up and working since the 1970's. The birds are still in those areas and they are the survivors who have learned to avoid them. The carnage on wild life from fossil fuels continues unabated. To ignore one of the best options we have for future energy needs simply because there are a few birds who must learn to adapt strikes me as shortsighted. I would happily live with a windmill in my backyard rather than one of those coal sludge pools that are polluting the water supply.

Seals are much smarter than birds. The Altamont Pass windfarm (about 40 miles from San Francisco) has been in operation since the 1970's and in that period the raptor population has been chopped (quite literally) in half.

All endangered birds in that area are being driven to extinction by the windfarm. A 50% reduction in the raptor population was so alarming even the environmentalists are taking notice.

Hmmm, no other factors at play? Like urban growth, pesticides, loss of nesting sites and food sources? Just the wind farm is to blame?

Yep. The windfarm has been the only development in the whole area. There has been extensive study of its impact on the raptor population. The problem with the windfarm, and MOST windfarms, is it was built in a flyway and the hills are and have always been a huge source of bunny rabbits and other critters that the raptors feed on.

So yes in the case of this windfarm we can categorically say IT IS THE ONLY SOURCE OF RAPTOR LETHALITY IN THAT AREA.

 

[westwall]

Absent a MAJOR legislative push from the government that drives fossil fuel generators out of business, wind is going to die within the next 15 years.

And I'm certain you have a peer-reviewed study published in a "real grown-up journal" to back that up, right?

It is unreliable and grotesquely expensive for what you get.

And I'm certain you have a peer-reviewed study published in a "real grown-up journal" to back that up, right? I particularly want to see the part about a system with zero fuel costs being "grotesquely expensive".



Really? Medic! Medic! We need a reality check over here ASAP!



And I'm certain you have a peer-reviewed study published in a "real grown-up journal" to back that up, right?



So you want to ignore the study that shows a MINIMUM of 3 millions birds killed annually by buildings because it might actually be as high as 60 million. Got it. And is it your vast experience in the scientific field that allows you to tell us what sort of variance is and is not acceptable in any of them? I had no idea. You certainly hide your light under a bushel and a half! And this is an amazing revelation! Buildings are able to DISCRIMINATE as to which species they kill! That is amazing - absolutely FUCKING amazing.

Windmills alone kill those types of birds.

Oh, this is getting funny. I'm certain you have a peer-reviewed study published in a "real grown-up journal" to back that up, right?

And also don't forget the millions of bats killed every year too. They don't get killed by buildings (sonar helps them avoid them don't you know) at all....but they are chopped to bits by windmills.

Millions? And, to BITS? Really? Bits?!? Are you thinking what I'm thinking? Dick Van Dyke in "Mary Poppins"? No? Too bad.

Yes, really. And the peer reviewed studies have been posted before....many times.

 

[Abraham3]

Bullshit.

 

[flacaltenn]

Bullshit.

The bats usually dont get cut in half.. Their little hearts explode from the acoustic pressure wave of these fans you claim are so quiet now.

 

[Abraham3]

How much chiroptera prey and chiroptera habitat vanish when you turn 5000 acres of woods into an open strip mine? What is the effect of acid rain on bats and their food species? What will be the effect of climate warming and altered rainfall and altered seasonal timing? What is the ratio between the habitat area affected by the use of fossil fuels and that affected by the presence of wind turbines?

The argument that bats and birds are MORE adversely affected by wind turbines than by fossil fuel power plants is a wash.

 

[flacaltenn]

How much chiroptera prey and chiroptera habitat vanish when you turn 5000 acres of woods into an open strip mine? What is the effect of acid rain on bats and their food species? What will be the effect of climate warming and altered rainfall and altered seasonal timing? What is the ratio between the habitat area affected by the use of fossil fuels and that affected by the presence of wind turbines?

The argument that bats and birds are MORE adversely affected by wind turbines than by fossil fuel power plants is a wash.

Well now.. lets not go overboard here.. No one is claiming worse or better. We just want enviro CONCERNS to be equal.. Like in breaking into pristine desrt to build Ivanpah, or getting waivers to kill more of the national bird symbol.. I dont want the Wind farms OR the oil companies getting government help to break rules and the trust of the public.

 

[skookerasbil]

Wind Power is a joke......another of the many green fantasies on the far left!!!

More fodder on the level of gay >>>

Wind Power: Germany?s Fatal Attraction ? STOP THESE THINGS

 

[skookerasbil]

The k00ks think there is this huge movement to renewables........holy fuck these people are so duped by the religious assholes they follow........meanwhile >>>


People Are Losing Hope For Green Energy - Business Insider

 

[skookerasbil]

Anyway......Europe is going to be going with coal and shale anyway's because the green experiment made their economies unable to compete. When you need cheap energy to compete, the last thing you want is solar or wind >>>


Energy Seriousness for Europe - WSJ.com

 

[freedombecki]

Nope, the screens would have pinned the seals underwater so they would have drowned which is why they didn't want to use them.

That's what I thought, you're making it up. It makes no sense.

Do you understand what a vortex is?

Is there a way they could fix the shape of the screens to eschew the artificial undertow created by these metal horrors? I think my impression of the area all around one of these was that nothing was growing in the waters around the unit for several cubic acres. My heart goes out to the people who once fished the areas for regional favorites they can no longer find, not to mention the ending of a specie of fish so beneficial in its habitat niche. And it seems a certain species of seal no longer exists by an area used for experimentation that turned into a power source, and it could be extinct in short order if the practice is continued.

Bless the beasts and the children...

[ame=http://youtu.be/AhR36gV6vW4]carpenter - Bless the Beasts and the Children - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Abraham3]

Do you understand anything? A screen would offer a chance whereas getting sucked in wouldn't. You're full of it. Your story isn't credible.

Read and learn!

I didn't say they didn't exist, the rest of your story sounds sketchy. Spotters would let them know when a seal was coming so they could be stopped? That doesn't sound possible. It hasn't proven itself to be worthwhile anyway. Nice attempt but I suspect something better will come along.

I'd like to point out something. Flow through open turbine blades being driven by the ambient flow produces NO SUCTION. Flow through the blade's arc area is actually slower than the flow away from the blades Animals will not be sucked in to the blades. It is possible for one of them to be struck by the blades, but unlikely. Additionally, compared to the speed at which dolphins and seals swim and maneuver, the blades are not moving that fast. You could get instances, as with birds, where the animals own speed makes a collision worse: essentially having a head on collision between a high speed animal and the moving blade. Given their maneuverability, their speed, their sense and their intellect, the odds of a seal or dolphin being struck and injured by a turbine blade are slim to none.