Will Trump be a war criminal like Truman?

[gipper]

Easy. Accept Japan's surrender. Done and lots of innocent lives saved.

Those were not one of the choices.

Just to repeat.

Long drawn out war with the USSR?

Or

Drop the bombs?

Those are the choices.

What do you do?

Doesn't matter. That is the choice that ends the war and saves lots of lives. EASY PEASY.

Ok, you won't answer the question. It's cool.

Oh and on a side note, if Japan planned on surrendering to the USSR, what do you do?

For the record, they were not surrendering.

You realize they did not surrender until USSR backed off and after the second bomb, right?

Just wasn't sure if you knew that.

The US military had complete control of the air and sea around Japan. It would not have mattered if they surrendered to the USSR, the US controlled the region.

If they had surrendered to stalin, then stalin would have controlled the region.

Understand that the cold war had begun.

Understand that the bombs were to prevent a war with the USSR.

You don't buy that. I get it.

The question is, if dropping the bombs prevented a war with the USSR, was it worth it?

You don't have to believe it to answer. Remember, August 8th 1945, the USSR declared war on Japan. August 9th, fat boy was dropped. Is that a bizarre coincidence? Russia was clearly trying to take over the whole region. Stalin knew the American people would not be behind another long war. If anything, the USSR spies certainly had the pulse of the American people. That only emboldened the encroachment.

Patton knew all too well what was happening and he wanted a war with them.

The bombs were dropped in order to save us from a long drawn out war with Russia.

Period. Still not quite sure what your choice would be if what I am saying is true.

There is no way the soviets could control the region. They had no navy and nearly no air forces. The USA had an enormous military presence surrounding Japan.

 

[gipper]

Harry Truman was the last democrat worth a damn. He didn't know FDR had the Manhattan Project underway for almost 2 years and didn't find out before Roosevelt died and he became president. When the bombs (we only had two) were ready he was told we would lose hundreds of thousands of Troops in the invasion of Japan. Claiming an invasion wasn't necessary is idiocy...the Japs were trying for a cessation of hostilities and Truman answered with Hiroshima. They didn't quit so a couple days later we hit Nagasaki. We were out of A-bombs and if the Japs had known that, they still wouldn't have quit. Here's Harry:

The Japanese were out of oil and other war essentials, and had been sending messages of wilingness to surrender. Truman must have been aware of this. The best guess is that USA wanted to send a message to a future enemy, Russia, of it's capabilities.

Was Hiroshima Necessary?

gip, If they were willing to surrender, UNDER OUR TERMS and not their own, there would not have been a second bomb.
The Japanese citizenry was in full support of their country. And their country was so resistant to surrender that 1. knowing the devastation caused by the first bomb, and 2. having no bombs to retaliate with, it STILL took two bombs to convince them it would be prudent to concede defeat.
That war could have gone on for years and cost an untold thousands of American deaths had Truman not made that difficult decision. Husbands came home. Sons and daughters came home because he did. My Daddy was one. Truman was right.
They declared war on us. We ended it. Japan didn't have the right to dictate how we stopped them from killing us.
Truman and the rest of our country were war victims. We were sleeping. They came a killing. Hirohito and the Empire of Japan that passed a lawful Declaration of War against the United States were the criminals. you dumbass..

No. All the Japanese asked for is for the Emperor not be charged as a criminal and hung. Truman said **** you. We will kill you and he dropped those two bombs incinerating 200k innocent women and children. Then he said okay the emperor can stay.

Nice guy old Harry.

 

[Theowl32]

Those were not one of the choices.

Just to repeat.

Long drawn out war with the USSR?

Or

Drop the bombs?

Those are the choices.

What do you do?

Doesn't matter. That is the choice that ends the war and saves lots of lives. EASY PEASY.

Ok, you won't answer the question. It's cool.

Oh and on a side note, if Japan planned on surrendering to the USSR, what do you do?

For the record, they were not surrendering.

You realize they did not surrender until USSR backed off and after the second bomb, right?

Just wasn't sure if you knew that.

The US military had complete control of the air and sea around Japan. It would not have mattered if they surrendered to the USSR, the US controlled the region.

If they had surrendered to stalin, then stalin would have controlled the region.

Understand that the cold war had begun.

Understand that the bombs were to prevent a war with the USSR.

You don't buy that. I get it.

The question is, if dropping the bombs prevented a war with the USSR, was it worth it?

You don't have to believe it to answer. Remember, August 8th 1945, the USSR declared war on Japan. August 9th, fat boy was dropped. Is that a bizarre coincidence? Russia was clearly trying to take over the whole region. Stalin knew the American people would not be behind another long war. If anything, the USSR spies certainly had the pulse of the American people. That only emboldened the encroachment.

Patton knew all too well what was happening and he wanted a war with them.

The bombs were dropped in order to save us from a long drawn out war with Russia.

Period. Still not quite sure what your choice would be if what I am saying is true.

There is no way the soviets could control the region. They had no navy and nearly no air forces. The USA had an enormous military presence surrounding Japan.

You are echoing the reasons why Patton wanted to go to war with them. Pattons point was the US had ALL of the logistical advantages and he also knew that would not be the case 10 years down the road.

He knew fully the aspirations of Russia, especially after the Yalta Conference.

Now, make no mistake. If a war happened with Russia, a few things. One, Russia was very powerful. Don't underestimate what they did have. They certainly had air power and they did have a navy. Going to war with russia, even though the US had advantages would have struggled. The UK was not about to join us. We would have been alone.

Also, and most importantly, it would have been an IMPOSSIBLE sell to the American people and Stalin knew this all too well.

You are starting to see the dilemma. The simple fact is the cold war was indeed going on. Russia wanted the region to expand their power. Japan was not surrendering cause they were trying to make arrangements with Russia for a surrender to them. Russia declared war on Japan the day before the second bomb was dropped.

This is why the bombs were dropped. To force stalin to back the hell off. Also to prevent a long war with them. Hundreds of thousands of lives lost.

 

[gipper]

Doesn't matter. That is the choice that ends the war and saves lots of lives. EASY PEASY.

Ok, you won't answer the question. It's cool.

Oh and on a side note, if Japan planned on surrendering to the USSR, what do you do?

For the record, they were not surrendering.

You realize they did not surrender until USSR backed off and after the second bomb, right?

Just wasn't sure if you knew that.

The US military had complete control of the air and sea around Japan. It would not have mattered if they surrendered to the USSR, the US controlled the region.

If they had surrendered to stalin, then stalin would have controlled the region.

Understand that the cold war had begun.

Understand that the bombs were to prevent a war with the USSR.

You don't buy that. I get it.

The question is, if dropping the bombs prevented a war with the USSR, was it worth it?

You don't have to believe it to answer. Remember, August 8th 1945, the USSR declared war on Japan. August 9th, fat boy was dropped. Is that a bizarre coincidence? Russia was clearly trying to take over the whole region. Stalin knew the American people would not be behind another long war. If anything, the USSR spies certainly had the pulse of the American people. That only emboldened the encroachment.

Patton knew all too well what was happening and he wanted a war with them.

The bombs were dropped in order to save us from a long drawn out war with Russia.

Period. Still not quite sure what your choice would be if what I am saying is true.

There is no way the soviets could control the region. They had no navy and nearly no air forces. The USA had an enormous military presence surrounding Japan.

You are echoing the reasons why Patton wanted to go to war with them. Pattons point was the US had ALL of the logistical advantages and he also knew that would not be the case 10 years down the road.

He knew fully the aspirations of Russia, especially after the Yalta Conference.

Now, make no mistake. If a war happened with Russia, a few things. One, Russia was very powerful. Don't underestimate what they did have. They certainly had air power and they did have a navy. Going to war with russia, even though the US had advantages would have struggled. The UK was not about to join us. We would have been alone.

Also, and most importantly, it would have been an IMPOSSIBLE sell to the American people and Stalin knew this all too well.

You are starting to see the dilemma. The simple fact is the cold war was indeed going on. Russia wanted the region to expand their power. Japan was not surrendering cause they were trying to make arrangements with Russia for a surrender to them. Russia declared war on Japan the day before the second bomb was dropped.

This is why the bombs were dropped. To force stalin to back the hell off. Also to prevent a long war with them. Hundreds of thousands of lives lost.

I do not dispute that Dirty Harry killed 200k innocent Japanese to impress Uncle Joe. That in no way can be considered anything but a war crime.

 

[Theowl32]

Ok, you won't answer the question. It's cool.

Oh and on a side note, if Japan planned on surrendering to the USSR, what do you do?

For the record, they were not surrendering.

You realize they did not surrender until USSR backed off and after the second bomb, right?

Just wasn't sure if you knew that.

The US military had complete control of the air and sea around Japan. It would not have mattered if they surrendered to the USSR, the US controlled the region.

If they had surrendered to stalin, then stalin would have controlled the region.

Understand that the cold war had begun.

Understand that the bombs were to prevent a war with the USSR.

You don't buy that. I get it.

The question is, if dropping the bombs prevented a war with the USSR, was it worth it?

You don't have to believe it to answer. Remember, August 8th 1945, the USSR declared war on Japan. August 9th, fat boy was dropped. Is that a bizarre coincidence? Russia was clearly trying to take over the whole region. Stalin knew the American people would not be behind another long war. If anything, the USSR spies certainly had the pulse of the American people. That only emboldened the encroachment.

Patton knew all too well what was happening and he wanted a war with them.

The bombs were dropped in order to save us from a long drawn out war with Russia.

Period. Still not quite sure what your choice would be if what I am saying is true.

There is no way the soviets could control the region. They had no navy and nearly no air forces. The USA had an enormous military presence surrounding Japan.

You are echoing the reasons why Patton wanted to go to war with them. Pattons point was the US had ALL of the logistical advantages and he also knew that would not be the case 10 years down the road.

He knew fully the aspirations of Russia, especially after the Yalta Conference.

Now, make no mistake. If a war happened with Russia, a few things. One, Russia was very powerful. Don't underestimate what they did have. They certainly had air power and they did have a navy. Going to war with russia, even though the US had advantages would have struggled. The UK was not about to join us. We would have been alone.

Also, and most importantly, it would have been an IMPOSSIBLE sell to the American people and Stalin knew this all too well.

You are starting to see the dilemma. The simple fact is the cold war was indeed going on. Russia wanted the region to expand their power. Japan was not surrendering cause they were trying to make arrangements with Russia for a surrender to them. Russia declared war on Japan the day before the second bomb was dropped.

This is why the bombs were dropped. To force stalin to back the hell off. Also to prevent a long war with them. Hundreds of thousands of lives lost.

I do not dispute that Dirty Harry killed 200k innocent Japanese to impress Uncle Joe. That in no way can be considered anything but a war crime.

That was really not the question.

The question was if you would have chosen a war with the USSR.

You are avoiding the subject by your tongue and cheek comment about Truman wanting to "impress Uncle Joe."

No, it was a lot more than that. You seem to ignore the reality of the cold war and you are refusing to see that the USSR was looking to take over the region.

Look at how communism did spread over the next decades following WWII. You cannot and will not see the reality.

Instead it is all about flaming America. Your zeal is blinding you to the actual reality of the situation Truman was in.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Harry Truman was the last democrat worth a damn. He didn't know FDR had the Manhattan Project underway for almost 2 years and didn't find out before Roosevelt died and he became president. When the bombs (we only had two) were ready he was told we would lose hundreds of thousands of Troops in the invasion of Japan. Claiming an invasion wasn't necessary is idiocy...the Japs were trying for a cessation of hostilities and Truman answered with Hiroshima. They didn't quit so a couple days later we hit Nagasaki. We were out of A-bombs and if the Japs had known that, they still wouldn't have quit. Here's Harry:

The Japanese were out of oil and other war essentials, and had been sending messages of wilingness to surrender. Truman must have been aware of this. The best guess is that USA wanted to send a message to a future enemy, Russia, of it's capabilities.

Was Hiroshima Necessary?

gip, If they were willing to surrender, UNDER OUR TERMS and not their own, there would not have been a second bomb.
The Japanese citizenry was in full support of their country. And their country was so resistant to surrender that 1. knowing the devastation caused by the first bomb, and 2. having no bombs to retaliate with, it STILL took two bombs to convince them it would be prudent to concede defeat.
That war could have gone on for years and cost an untold thousands of American deaths had Truman not made that difficult decision. Husbands came home. Sons and daughters came home because he did. My Daddy was one. Truman was right.
They declared war on us. We ended it. Japan didn't have the right to dictate how we stopped them from killing us.
Truman and the rest of our country were war victims. We were sleeping. They came a killing. Hirohito and the Empire of Japan that passed a lawful Declaration of War against the United States were the criminals. you dumbass..

No. All the Japanese asked for is for the Emperor not be charged as a criminal and hung. Truman said **** you. We will kill you and he dropped those two bombs incinerating 200k innocent women and children. Then he said okay the emperor can stay.

Nice guy old Harry.

The Emperor was in no position to make demands after killing thousands and thousands of American men and women in and after an UNPROVOKED attack on our country. Yes we could have continued to let the Japanese kill us while we hugged them and tried to understand why they wanted to seize our country. They didn't want hugged.
Innocents die in war. The Japanese knew that. Not everyone that died at Pearl Harbor were soldiers, and none had any issue with Hirohito. Hirohito knew the risk he was taking. He didn't give a shit about his innocent. But it's so pc of you to care more about the aggressors than the real victims.
So tell me how many more Americans would YOU have been willing to sacrifice in the name of diplomacy? My Dad? FU. How dare you.
You tell Mrs. Sullivan how unfair to the Japanese we were, you little son of a *****. When the preacher showed up in her driveway, she ask him, "Which one?" He said, "ALL 5". The last one was eaten by sharks.
Tell me some more about the innocent losing their lives. Those boys were farmers until the Japanese killed them all.

Nice guy old Hirohito. He would appreciate an American that cared so much about his welfare. And his Kamikaze respect for American life.

 

[SavannahMann]

Those were not one of the choices.

Just to repeat.

Long drawn out war with the USSR?

Or

Drop the bombs?

Those are the choices.

What do you do?

Doesn't matter. That is the choice that ends the war and saves lots of lives. EASY PEASY.

Ok, you won't answer the question. It's cool.

Oh and on a side note, if Japan planned on surrendering to the USSR, what do you do?

For the record, they were not surrendering.

You realize they did not surrender until USSR backed off and after the second bomb, right?

Just wasn't sure if you knew that.

The US military had complete control of the air and sea around Japan. It would not have mattered if they surrendered to the USSR, the US controlled the region.

If they had surrendered to stalin, then stalin would have controlled the region.

Understand that the cold war had begun.

Understand that the bombs were to prevent a war with the USSR.

You don't buy that. I get it.

The question is, if dropping the bombs prevented a war with the USSR, was it worth it?

You don't have to believe it to answer. Remember, August 8th 1945, the USSR declared war on Japan. August 9th, fat boy was dropped. Is that a bizarre coincidence? Russia was clearly trying to take over the whole region. Stalin knew the American people would not be behind another long war. If anything, the USSR spies certainly had the pulse of the American people. That only emboldened the encroachment.

Patton knew all too well what was happening and he wanted a war with them.

The bombs were dropped in order to save us from a long drawn out war with Russia.

Period. Still not quite sure what your choice would be if what I am saying is true.

There is no way the soviets could control the region. They had no navy and nearly no air forces. The USA had an enormous military presence surrounding Japan.

I have to ask. Did you study World War II on anything but the History Channel? Because your knowledge of the subject is sorely lacking.

Soviet Air Forces - Wikipedia

Soviets produced some 140,000 planes during the war. Oh, and they had the highest scoring ace of any Allied power.

What hampered the Soviets in the early part of the war was less about the quality of the planes, but the lack of experienced pilots, and ground crews. Also the speed of advance of the German Army. This was a problem that was solved when the pilots lived long enough to learn. Stalin had a theory, a soldier learned everything they needed to know in five minutes of combat. If they lived, there wasn't much about war you could teach them.

The Soviets pretty much denied the Luftwaffe the skies over the Battle of Kursk. That means they fought the most experienced Air Force in the world to a standstill.

The Soviets performed the first trans polar flight. Best of all their planes worked in the winter, which the German Planes generally speaking, didn't.

Soviet Snipers racked up hundreds of kills. Soviet women were on the front lines killing Fascists. One woman came to the United States and was introduced to the American Press. She had been invalided from the front lines after her third wound. That was after she had killed 309 Germans.

The Soviets adapted a modern battle rifle after World War II, this was the AK-47. The Americans used the M-1 Garand, and then the M-14, the M-16, M-16A1, M-16A2, M-4, and other specialized variants of the same bloody rifle. The Russians still use the AK-47. It is cheap, reliable, rugged as hell, and is not affected by elements like the AR platform is. In fact, the "modern" AR's use the same Gas Operating Rod system that the AK has. The one we used to use on the M-1 and M-14's.

It's fun to pretend that everything awesome in the world is American, but that fantasy is dangerous. Because it means you underestimate your opponent.

One last thing. There was a joke in the Army during the 1980's that was still around when I showed up at Fort Bragg. Two Soviet Generals are having coffee in Paris, one turns to the second and asks. "So who won the air war?"

It will probably take you a minute to get it.

The Soviets managed to shoot down a U-2 spy plane. The Soviets managed a lot of things.

One example. NASA realized the Astronauts would need to take notes in space. But a ball point pen would not work. Gravity pulls the ink to the ball allowing it to be spread on the paper by the rolling of the ball. NASA literally spent a million dollars developing a pen that worked in space. These pens are sold in most office supply stores now as "space pens". They write upside down, under water. They're awesome.

The Soviets had the same need, to take notes in space. The soviets used a pencil. The Russian Cosmonauts today, still use a pencil.

The Soviets developed the first of the Reactive Armor systems. These were explosives that were placed around the vehicle and when an enemy warhead struck the armor, the explosive blew out stopping the warhead from penetrating. We smart Americans laughed our asses off. Then we saw it actually worked. Now, our most advanced defense industries are developing radar and laser activated interceptor systems for enemy warheads that are basically ten times as expensive and don't work any better than the systems the Soviets came up with in the 1970's.

If it's stupid, but it works, it isn't stupid. Murphy's laws of Combat.

 

[Aletheia4u]

...and Truman was most certainly a war criminal and a liar. Let's hope Trump does not follow in his footsteps.

From the great Ralph Raico....the truth...you might not like it.

Harry Truman and the Atomic Bomb
Great controversy has always surrounded the bombings. One thing Truman insisted on from the start was that the decision to use the bombs, and the responsibility it entailed, was his. Over the years, he gave different, and contradictory, grounds for his decision. Sometimes he implied that he had acted simply out of revenge. To a clergyman who criticized him, Truman responded testily,

Nobody is more disturbed over the use of Atomic bombs than I am but I was greatly disturbed over the unwarranted attack by the Japanese on Pearl Harbor and their murder of our prisoners of war. The only language they seem to understand is the one we have been using to bombard them.2

Such reasoning will not impress anyone who fails to see how the brutality of the Japanese military could justify deadly retaliation against innocent men, women, and children. Truman doubtless was aware of this, so from time to time he advanced other pretexts. On August 9, 1945, he stated, “The world will note that the first atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, a military base. That was because we wished in this first attack to avoid, insofar as possible, the killing of civilians.

This, however, is absurd. Pearl Harbor was a military base. Hiroshima was a city, inhabited by some three hundred thousand people, which contained military elements. In any case, since the harbor was mined and the US Navy and Air Force were in control of the waters around Japan, whatever troops were stationed in Hiroshima had been effectively neutralized.

On other occasions, Truman claimed that Hiroshima was bombed because it was an industrial center. But, as noted in the US Strategic Bombing Survey, “all major factories in Hiroshima were on the periphery of the city — and escaped serious damage.”4 The target was the center of the city. That Truman realized the kind of victims the bombs consumed is evident from his comment to his cabinet on August 10, explaining his reluctance to drop a third bomb: “The thought of wiping out another 100,000 people was too horrible,” he said; he didn’t like the idea of killing “all those kids.”5 Wiping out another one hundred thousand people … all those kids.

Harry Truman’s Atomic Bombs - LewRockwell LewRockwell.com

No, Truman used water for his analogy. But Pres. Trump uses fire and fury...

‘A rain of ruin’: Watch Truman announce the Hiroshima atomic bomb | The Kansas City Star

 

[Syriusly]

...and Truman was most certainly a war criminal and a liar. Let's hope Trump does not follow in his footsteps.

Truman of course was not a war criminal- since he was never convicted of any crimes.

Was Truman a liar? Sure- all Presidents are liars. Was Truman a liar on the scale of President Snowflake? Not a chance- President Snowflake lies as often as he tweets.

 

[Syriusly]

Shrug. Better their kids than ours. The casualties resulting from an invasion of Japan would have been ridiculous.

That is just another lie. And besides, the US did not need to invade the home islands. Just more bull shit...
.

Not a lie- just look at what happened in Saipan to see what would have happened in Japan.

Did the allies need to invade Japan? Yes.

Japan had an active nuclear weapons development program- and a military philosophy that until Hiroshima and Nagasaki would have willingly sacrificed its population- and planned to.

 

[gipper]

The US military had complete control of the air and sea around Japan. It would not have mattered if they surrendered to the USSR, the US controlled the region.

If they had surrendered to stalin, then stalin would have controlled the region.

Understand that the cold war had begun.

Understand that the bombs were to prevent a war with the USSR.

You don't buy that. I get it.

The question is, if dropping the bombs prevented a war with the USSR, was it worth it?

You don't have to believe it to answer. Remember, August 8th 1945, the USSR declared war on Japan. August 9th, fat boy was dropped. Is that a bizarre coincidence? Russia was clearly trying to take over the whole region. Stalin knew the American people would not be behind another long war. If anything, the USSR spies certainly had the pulse of the American people. That only emboldened the encroachment.

Patton knew all too well what was happening and he wanted a war with them.

The bombs were dropped in order to save us from a long drawn out war with Russia.

Period. Still not quite sure what your choice would be if what I am saying is true.

There is no way the soviets could control the region. They had no navy and nearly no air forces. The USA had an enormous military presence surrounding Japan.

You are echoing the reasons why Patton wanted to go to war with them. Pattons point was the US had ALL of the logistical advantages and he also knew that would not be the case 10 years down the road.

He knew fully the aspirations of Russia, especially after the Yalta Conference.

Now, make no mistake. If a war happened with Russia, a few things. One, Russia was very powerful. Don't underestimate what they did have. They certainly had air power and they did have a navy. Going to war with russia, even though the US had advantages would have struggled. The UK was not about to join us. We would have been alone.

Also, and most importantly, it would have been an IMPOSSIBLE sell to the American people and Stalin knew this all too well.

You are starting to see the dilemma. The simple fact is the cold war was indeed going on. Russia wanted the region to expand their power. Japan was not surrendering cause they were trying to make arrangements with Russia for a surrender to them. Russia declared war on Japan the day before the second bomb was dropped.

This is why the bombs were dropped. To force stalin to back the hell off. Also to prevent a long war with them. Hundreds of thousands of lives lost.

I do not dispute that Dirty Harry killed 200k innocent Japanese to impress Uncle Joe. That in no way can be considered anything but a war crime.

That was really not the question.

The question was if you would have chosen a war with the USSR.

You are avoiding the subject by your tongue and cheek comment about Truman wanting to "impress Uncle Joe."

No, it was a lot more than that. You seem to ignore the reality of the cold war and you are refusing to see that the USSR was looking to take over the region.

Look at how communism did spread over the next decades following WWII. You cannot and will not see the reality.

Instead it is all about flaming America. Your zeal is blinding you to the actual reality of the situation Truman was in.

Don't be silly.

If you think Truman's criminal act was appropriate because it somehow contained the USSR, you are not only wrong but inhuman.

 

[gipper]

Shrug. Better their kids than ours. The casualties resulting from an invasion of Japan would have been ridiculous.

That is just another lie. And besides, the US did not need to invade the home islands. Just more bull shit...
.

Not a lie- just look at what happened in Saipan to see what would have happened in Japan.

Did the allies need to invade Japan? Yes.

Japan had an active nuclear weapons development program- and a military philosophy that until Hiroshima and Nagasaki would have willingly sacrificed its population- and planned to.

No the allies did not need to invade. By summer August 1945, Japan had nothing left. The nation was starving and in ruins. Accept their surrender and move on.

However, we all know that is not how empires are built.

 

[gipper]

...and Truman was most certainly a war criminal and a liar. Let's hope Trump does not follow in his footsteps.

Truman of course was not a war criminal- since he was never convicted of any crimes.

Was Truman a liar? Sure- all Presidents are liars. Was Truman a liar on the scale of President Snowflake? Not a chance- President Snowflake lies as often as he tweets.

Silly and stupid.

One is only a war criminal, if one is convicted. Come now...you can't be this stupid. Right?

 

[gipper]

Harry Truman was the last democrat worth a damn. He didn't know FDR had the Manhattan Project underway for almost 2 years and didn't find out before Roosevelt died and he became president. When the bombs (we only had two) were ready he was told we would lose hundreds of thousands of Troops in the invasion of Japan. Claiming an invasion wasn't necessary is idiocy...the Japs were trying for a cessation of hostilities and Truman answered with Hiroshima. They didn't quit so a couple days later we hit Nagasaki. We were out of A-bombs and if the Japs had known that, they still wouldn't have quit. Here's Harry:

The Japanese were out of oil and other war essentials, and had been sending messages of wilingness to surrender. Truman must have been aware of this. The best guess is that USA wanted to send a message to a future enemy, Russia, of it's capabilities.

Was Hiroshima Necessary?

gip, If they were willing to surrender, UNDER OUR TERMS and not their own, there would not have been a second bomb.
The Japanese citizenry was in full support of their country. And their country was so resistant to surrender that 1. knowing the devastation caused by the first bomb, and 2. having no bombs to retaliate with, it STILL took two bombs to convince them it would be prudent to concede defeat.
That war could have gone on for years and cost an untold thousands of American deaths had Truman not made that difficult decision. Husbands came home. Sons and daughters came home because he did. My Daddy was one. Truman was right.
They declared war on us. We ended it. Japan didn't have the right to dictate how we stopped them from killing us.
Truman and the rest of our country were war victims. We were sleeping. They came a killing. Hirohito and the Empire of Japan that passed a lawful Declaration of War against the United States were the criminals. you dumbass..

No. All the Japanese asked for is for the Emperor not be charged as a criminal and hung. Truman said **** you. We will kill you and he dropped those two bombs incinerating 200k innocent women and children. Then he said okay the emperor can stay.

Nice guy old Harry.

The Emperor was in no position to make demands after killing thousands and thousands of American men and women in and after an UNPROVOKED attack on our country. Yes we could have continued to let the Japanese kill us while we hugged them and tried to understand why they wanted to seize our country. They didn't want hugged.
Innocents die in war. The Japanese knew that. Not everyone that died at Pearl Harbor were soldiers, and none had any issue with Hirohito. Hirohito knew the risk he was taking. He didn't give a shit about his innocent. But it's so pc of you to care more about the aggressors than the real victims.
So tell me how many more Americans would YOU have been willing to sacrifice in the name of diplomacy? My Dad? FU. How dare you.
You tell Mrs. Sullivan how unfair to the Japanese we were, you little son of a *****. When the preacher showed up in her driveway, she ask him, "Which one?" He said, "ALL 5". The last one was eaten by sharks.
Tell me some more about the innocent losing their lives. Those boys were farmers until the Japanese killed them all.

Nice guy old Hirohito. He would appreciate an American that cared so much about his welfare. And his Kamikaze respect for American life.

You only see the American position, while ignoring what American forces did. Japan's cities were bombed incessantly. Killing untold numbers of innocent civilians. You and sadly too many Americans, somehow think this justified because the Japanese military committed atrocities.

Why to you fail to see how ignorant that is?

All Truman had to do to end the war, prior to his war crimes of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, was to tell the Japanese the emperor would not be prosecuted...which is exactly what he did AFTER he incinerated 200,000 innocent women and children.

You can't see there is no difference between Truman and Hirohito. Both were murdering fools.

 

[gipper]

Doesn't matter. That is the choice that ends the war and saves lots of lives. EASY PEASY.

Ok, you won't answer the question. It's cool.

Oh and on a side note, if Japan planned on surrendering to the USSR, what do you do?

For the record, they were not surrendering.

You realize they did not surrender until USSR backed off and after the second bomb, right?

Just wasn't sure if you knew that.

The US military had complete control of the air and sea around Japan. It would not have mattered if they surrendered to the USSR, the US controlled the region.

If they had surrendered to stalin, then stalin would have controlled the region.

Understand that the cold war had begun.

Understand that the bombs were to prevent a war with the USSR.

You don't buy that. I get it.

The question is, if dropping the bombs prevented a war with the USSR, was it worth it?

You don't have to believe it to answer. Remember, August 8th 1945, the USSR declared war on Japan. August 9th, fat boy was dropped. Is that a bizarre coincidence? Russia was clearly trying to take over the whole region. Stalin knew the American people would not be behind another long war. If anything, the USSR spies certainly had the pulse of the American people. That only emboldened the encroachment.

Patton knew all too well what was happening and he wanted a war with them.

The bombs were dropped in order to save us from a long drawn out war with Russia.

Period. Still not quite sure what your choice would be if what I am saying is true.

There is no way the soviets could control the region. They had no navy and nearly no air forces. The USA had an enormous military presence surrounding Japan.

I have to ask. Did you study World War II on anything but the History Channel? Because your knowledge of the subject is sorely lacking.

Soviet Air Forces - Wikipedia

Soviets produced some 140,000 planes during the war. Oh, and they had the highest scoring ace of any Allied power.

What hampered the Soviets in the early part of the war was less about the quality of the planes, but the lack of experienced pilots, and ground crews. Also the speed of advance of the German Army. This was a problem that was solved when the pilots lived long enough to learn. Stalin had a theory, a soldier learned everything they needed to know in five minutes of combat. If they lived, there wasn't much about war you could teach them.

The Soviets pretty much denied the Luftwaffe the skies over the Battle of Kursk. That means they fought the most experienced Air Force in the world to a standstill.

The Soviets performed the first trans polar flight. Best of all their planes worked in the winter, which the German Planes generally speaking, didn't.

Soviet Snipers racked up hundreds of kills. Soviet women were on the front lines killing Fascists. One woman came to the United States and was introduced to the American Press. She had been invalided from the front lines after her third wound. That was after she had killed 309 Germans.

The Soviets adapted a modern battle rifle after World War II, this was the AK-47. The Americans used the M-1 Garand, and then the M-14, the M-16, M-16A1, M-16A2, M-4, and other specialized variants of the same bloody rifle. The Russians still use the AK-47. It is cheap, reliable, rugged as hell, and is not affected by elements like the AR platform is. In fact, the "modern" AR's use the same Gas Operating Rod system that the AK has. The one we used to use on the M-1 and M-14's.

It's fun to pretend that everything awesome in the world is American, but that fantasy is dangerous. Because it means you underestimate your opponent.

One last thing. There was a joke in the Army during the 1980's that was still around when I showed up at Fort Bragg. Two Soviet Generals are having coffee in Paris, one turns to the second and asks. "So who won the air war?"

It will probably take you a minute to get it.

The Soviets managed to shoot down a U-2 spy plane. The Soviets managed a lot of things.

One example. NASA realized the Astronauts would need to take notes in space. But a ball point pen would not work. Gravity pulls the ink to the ball allowing it to be spread on the paper by the rolling of the ball. NASA literally spent a million dollars developing a pen that worked in space. These pens are sold in most office supply stores now as "space pens". They write upside down, under water. They're awesome.

The Soviets had the same need, to take notes in space. The soviets used a pencil. The Russian Cosmonauts today, still use a pencil.

The Soviets developed the first of the Reactive Armor systems. These were explosives that were placed around the vehicle and when an enemy warhead struck the armor, the explosive blew out stopping the warhead from penetrating. We smart Americans laughed our asses off. Then we saw it actually worked. Now, our most advanced defense industries are developing radar and laser activated interceptor systems for enemy warheads that are basically ten times as expensive and don't work any better than the systems the Soviets came up with in the 1970's.

If it's stupid, but it works, it isn't stupid. Murphy's laws of Combat.

That is laughable, coming from one who believes whatever the State tells him.

 

[Theowl32]

If they had surrendered to stalin, then stalin would have controlled the region.

Understand that the cold war had begun.

Understand that the bombs were to prevent a war with the USSR.

You don't buy that. I get it.

The question is, if dropping the bombs prevented a war with the USSR, was it worth it?

You don't have to believe it to answer. Remember, August 8th 1945, the USSR declared war on Japan. August 9th, fat boy was dropped. Is that a bizarre coincidence? Russia was clearly trying to take over the whole region. Stalin knew the American people would not be behind another long war. If anything, the USSR spies certainly had the pulse of the American people. That only emboldened the encroachment.

Patton knew all too well what was happening and he wanted a war with them.

The bombs were dropped in order to save us from a long drawn out war with Russia.

Period. Still not quite sure what your choice would be if what I am saying is true.

There is no way the soviets could control the region. They had no navy and nearly no air forces. The USA had an enormous military presence surrounding Japan.

You are echoing the reasons why Patton wanted to go to war with them. Pattons point was the US had ALL of the logistical advantages and he also knew that would not be the case 10 years down the road.

He knew fully the aspirations of Russia, especially after the Yalta Conference.

Now, make no mistake. If a war happened with Russia, a few things. One, Russia was very powerful. Don't underestimate what they did have. They certainly had air power and they did have a navy. Going to war with russia, even though the US had advantages would have struggled. The UK was not about to join us. We would have been alone.

Also, and most importantly, it would have been an IMPOSSIBLE sell to the American people and Stalin knew this all too well.

You are starting to see the dilemma. The simple fact is the cold war was indeed going on. Russia wanted the region to expand their power. Japan was not surrendering cause they were trying to make arrangements with Russia for a surrender to them. Russia declared war on Japan the day before the second bomb was dropped.

This is why the bombs were dropped. To force stalin to back the hell off. Also to prevent a long war with them. Hundreds of thousands of lives lost.

I do not dispute that Dirty Harry killed 200k innocent Japanese to impress Uncle Joe. That in no way can be considered anything but a war crime.

That was really not the question.

The question was if you would have chosen a war with the USSR.

You are avoiding the subject by your tongue and cheek comment about Truman wanting to "impress Uncle Joe."

No, it was a lot more than that. You seem to ignore the reality of the cold war and you are refusing to see that the USSR was looking to take over the region.

Look at how communism did spread over the next decades following WWII. You cannot and will not see the reality.

Instead it is all about flaming America. Your zeal is blinding you to the actual reality of the situation Truman was in.

Don't be silly.

If you think Truman's criminal act was appropriate because it somehow contained the USSR, you are not only wrong but inhuman.

All war is inhuman and all wars have collateral damage.

I asked a simple question and I am sure that it is causing cognitive dissonance. So much so that you are simply not answering it.

The USSR (stalin) was pushing his ideology. Remember also that the USSR had real problems financially after the war. Stalin was encroaching into the far east. This is actually documented. Not sure why anyone is denying this.

Stalin was pushing his weight around and as I said the cold war began BEFORE WWII was over. After the Yalta Conference, the soviets were no longer ALLIES with the US.

Stalin knew that he would be able to push his weight around based on the fact that the American people would not stand for another long drawn out war that would leave hundreds of thousands of Americans killed.

Patton, from a tactical position was right. All of war is about logistics. Those who have logistical advantages and those who don't. That is all the professionals study. Logistics. When any general senses logistical advantages they act accordingly.

However, politically it would not be possible. That is NOT what generals are and history is filled with generals or colonels arguing with politicians.

Again, those bombs were dropped to stop an impending bloody war with the soviets. Remember a few things. One, Soviets did not have the bomb. Two, time was of the essence. The soviets were encroaching rapidly. Three, there were no satellites so there was no precision bombing.

The story that the US sold to the world and American people was true to some extent. If they did not drop the bombs, that would have cost hundreds of thousands if not millions of lives lost on all sides. However, what they did not tell was the fact that it was the Soviets that we would have been at war with.

The American public was not aware at the time of the cold war that was going on. Remember, they had spent the previous 4 or 5 years understanding the soviets were allies.

You won't answer the question and I am guessing this paradigm shift is causing problems for you. You deal with it by denying there was a real problem with the soviets. You refuse to believe that a war with the soviets was imminent. Of course immediately following WWII, the cold war was a well documented conflict that lasted 40 years.

Thanks to the left wing commie sympathizers and traitors Stalin got the secrets to the bomb. Shortly after the rosenbergs, the nuclear arms race began.

You are simply naive.

 

[gipper]

Doesn't matter. That is the choice that ends the war and saves lots of lives. EASY PEASY.

Ok, you won't answer the question. It's cool.

Oh and on a side note, if Japan planned on surrendering to the USSR, what do you do?

For the record, they were not surrendering.

You realize they did not surrender until USSR backed off and after the second bomb, right?

Just wasn't sure if you knew that.

The US military had complete control of the air and sea around Japan. It would not have mattered if they surrendered to the USSR, the US controlled the region.

If they had surrendered to stalin, then stalin would have controlled the region.

Understand that the cold war had begun.

Understand that the bombs were to prevent a war with the USSR.

You don't buy that. I get it.

The question is, if dropping the bombs prevented a war with the USSR, was it worth it?

You don't have to believe it to answer. Remember, August 8th 1945, the USSR declared war on Japan. August 9th, fat boy was dropped. Is that a bizarre coincidence? Russia was clearly trying to take over the whole region. Stalin knew the American people would not be behind another long war. If anything, the USSR spies certainly had the pulse of the American people. That only emboldened the encroachment.

Patton knew all too well what was happening and he wanted a war with them.

The bombs were dropped in order to save us from a long drawn out war with Russia.

Period. Still not quite sure what your choice would be if what I am saying is true.

There is no way the soviets could control the region. They had no navy and nearly no air forces. The USA had an enormous military presence surrounding Japan.

I have to ask. Did you study World War II on anything but the History Channel? Because your knowledge of the subject is sorely lacking.

Soviet Air Forces - Wikipedia

Soviets produced some 140,000 planes during the war. Oh, and they had the highest scoring ace of any Allied power.

What hampered the Soviets in the early part of the war was less about the quality of the planes, but the lack of experienced pilots, and ground crews. Also the speed of advance of the German Army. This was a problem that was solved when the pilots lived long enough to learn. Stalin had a theory, a soldier learned everything they needed to know in five minutes of combat. If they lived, there wasn't much about war you could teach them.

The Soviets pretty much denied the Luftwaffe the skies over the Battle of Kursk. That means they fought the most experienced Air Force in the world to a standstill.

The Soviets performed the first trans polar flight. Best of all their planes worked in the winter, which the German Planes generally speaking, didn't.

Soviet Snipers racked up hundreds of kills. Soviet women were on the front lines killing Fascists. One woman came to the United States and was introduced to the American Press. She had been invalided from the front lines after her third wound. That was after she had killed 309 Germans.

The Soviets adapted a modern battle rifle after World War II, this was the AK-47. The Americans used the M-1 Garand, and then the M-14, the M-16, M-16A1, M-16A2, M-4, and other specialized variants of the same bloody rifle. The Russians still use the AK-47. It is cheap, reliable, rugged as hell, and is not affected by elements like the AR platform is. In fact, the "modern" AR's use the same Gas Operating Rod system that the AK has. The one we used to use on the M-1 and M-14's.

It's fun to pretend that everything awesome in the world is American, but that fantasy is dangerous. Because it means you underestimate your opponent.

One last thing. There was a joke in the Army during the 1980's that was still around when I showed up at Fort Bragg. Two Soviet Generals are having coffee in Paris, one turns to the second and asks. "So who won the air war?"

It will probably take you a minute to get it.

The Soviets managed to shoot down a U-2 spy plane. The Soviets managed a lot of things.

One example. NASA realized the Astronauts would need to take notes in space. But a ball point pen would not work. Gravity pulls the ink to the ball allowing it to be spread on the paper by the rolling of the ball. NASA literally spent a million dollars developing a pen that worked in space. These pens are sold in most office supply stores now as "space pens". They write upside down, under water. They're awesome.

The Soviets had the same need, to take notes in space. The soviets used a pencil. The Russian Cosmonauts today, still use a pencil.

The Soviets developed the first of the Reactive Armor systems. These were explosives that were placed around the vehicle and when an enemy warhead struck the armor, the explosive blew out stopping the warhead from penetrating. We smart Americans laughed our asses off. Then we saw it actually worked. Now, our most advanced defense industries are developing radar and laser activated interceptor systems for enemy warheads that are basically ten times as expensive and don't work any better than the systems the Soviets came up with in the 1970's.

If it's stupid, but it works, it isn't stupid. Murphy's laws of Combat.

Your long posts are tedious, stupid, and off point.

You won't find Ralph Raico's opinion of Truman and the A-bombings on the history channel. You will find your view widely promoted on the History Channel.

Clearly ...you are statist dupe.

 

[gipper]

There is no way the soviets could control the region. They had no navy and nearly no air forces. The USA had an enormous military presence surrounding Japan.

You are echoing the reasons why Patton wanted to go to war with them. Pattons point was the US had ALL of the logistical advantages and he also knew that would not be the case 10 years down the road.

He knew fully the aspirations of Russia, especially after the Yalta Conference.

Now, make no mistake. If a war happened with Russia, a few things. One, Russia was very powerful. Don't underestimate what they did have. They certainly had air power and they did have a navy. Going to war with russia, even though the US had advantages would have struggled. The UK was not about to join us. We would have been alone.

Also, and most importantly, it would have been an IMPOSSIBLE sell to the American people and Stalin knew this all too well.

You are starting to see the dilemma. The simple fact is the cold war was indeed going on. Russia wanted the region to expand their power. Japan was not surrendering cause they were trying to make arrangements with Russia for a surrender to them. Russia declared war on Japan the day before the second bomb was dropped.

This is why the bombs were dropped. To force stalin to back the hell off. Also to prevent a long war with them. Hundreds of thousands of lives lost.

I do not dispute that Dirty Harry killed 200k innocent Japanese to impress Uncle Joe. That in no way can be considered anything but a war crime.

That was really not the question.

The question was if you would have chosen a war with the USSR.

You are avoiding the subject by your tongue and cheek comment about Truman wanting to "impress Uncle Joe."

No, it was a lot more than that. You seem to ignore the reality of the cold war and you are refusing to see that the USSR was looking to take over the region.

Look at how communism did spread over the next decades following WWII. You cannot and will not see the reality.

Instead it is all about flaming America. Your zeal is blinding you to the actual reality of the situation Truman was in.

Don't be silly.

If you think Truman's criminal act was appropriate because it somehow contained the USSR, you are not only wrong but inhuman.

All war is inhuman and all wars have collateral damage.

I asked a simple question and I am sure that it is causing cognitive dissonance. So much so that you are simply not answering it.

The USSR (stalin) was pushing his ideology. Remember also that the USSR had real problems financially after the war. Stalin was encroaching into the far east. This is actually documented. Not sure why anyone is denying this.

Stalin was pushing his weight around and as I said the cold war began BEFORE WWII was over. After the Yalta Conference, the soviets were no longer ALLIES with the US.

Stalin knew that he would be able to push his weight around based on the fact that the American people would not stand for another long drawn out war that would leave hundreds of thousands of Americans killed.

Patton, from a tactical position was right. All of war is about logistics. Those who have logistical advantages and those who don't. That is all the professionals study. Logistics. When any general senses logistical advantages they act accordingly.

However, politically it would not be possible. That is NOT what generals are and history is filled with generals or colonels arguing with politicians.

Again, those bombs were dropped to stop an impending bloody war with the soviets. Remember a few things. One, Soviets did not have the bomb. Two, time was of the essence. The soviets were encroaching rapidly. Three, there were no satellites so there was no precision bombing.

The story that the US sold to the world and American people was true to some extent. If they did not drop the bombs, that would have cost hundreds of thousands if not millions of lives lost on all sides. However, what they did not tell was the fact that it was the Soviets that we would have been at war with.

The American public was not aware at the time of the cold war that was going on. Remember, they had spent the previous 4 or 5 years understanding the soviets were allies.

You won't answer the question and I am guessing this paradigm shift is causing problems for you. You deal with it by denying there was a real problem with the soviets. You refuse to believe that a war with the soviets was imminent. Of course immediately following WWII, the cold war was a well documented conflict that lasted 40 years.

Thanks to the left wing commie sympathizers and traitors Stalin got the secrets to the bomb. Shortly after the rosenbergs, the nuclear arms race began.

You are simply naive.

Is your first sentence some kind of ignorant justification for mass murder of innocents?

Please stop with your silliness.

It is clear to anyone willing to think, that the a-bombings were entirely unnecessary and a war crime.

 

[Theowl32]

You are echoing the reasons why Patton wanted to go to war with them. Pattons point was the US had ALL of the logistical advantages and he also knew that would not be the case 10 years down the road.

He knew fully the aspirations of Russia, especially after the Yalta Conference.

Now, make no mistake. If a war happened with Russia, a few things. One, Russia was very powerful. Don't underestimate what they did have. They certainly had air power and they did have a navy. Going to war with russia, even though the US had advantages would have struggled. The UK was not about to join us. We would have been alone.

Also, and most importantly, it would have been an IMPOSSIBLE sell to the American people and Stalin knew this all too well.

You are starting to see the dilemma. The simple fact is the cold war was indeed going on. Russia wanted the region to expand their power. Japan was not surrendering cause they were trying to make arrangements with Russia for a surrender to them. Russia declared war on Japan the day before the second bomb was dropped.

This is why the bombs were dropped. To force stalin to back the hell off. Also to prevent a long war with them. Hundreds of thousands of lives lost.

I do not dispute that Dirty Harry killed 200k innocent Japanese to impress Uncle Joe. That in no way can be considered anything but a war crime.

That was really not the question.

The question was if you would have chosen a war with the USSR.

You are avoiding the subject by your tongue and cheek comment about Truman wanting to "impress Uncle Joe."

No, it was a lot more than that. You seem to ignore the reality of the cold war and you are refusing to see that the USSR was looking to take over the region.

Look at how communism did spread over the next decades following WWII. You cannot and will not see the reality.

Instead it is all about flaming America. Your zeal is blinding you to the actual reality of the situation Truman was in.

Don't be silly.

If you think Truman's criminal act was appropriate because it somehow contained the USSR, you are not only wrong but inhuman.

All war is inhuman and all wars have collateral damage.

I asked a simple question and I am sure that it is causing cognitive dissonance. So much so that you are simply not answering it.

The USSR (stalin) was pushing his ideology. Remember also that the USSR had real problems financially after the war. Stalin was encroaching into the far east. This is actually documented. Not sure why anyone is denying this.

Stalin was pushing his weight around and as I said the cold war began BEFORE WWII was over. After the Yalta Conference, the soviets were no longer ALLIES with the US.

Stalin knew that he would be able to push his weight around based on the fact that the American people would not stand for another long drawn out war that would leave hundreds of thousands of Americans killed.

Patton, from a tactical position was right. All of war is about logistics. Those who have logistical advantages and those who don't. That is all the professionals study. Logistics. When any general senses logistical advantages they act accordingly.

However, politically it would not be possible. That is NOT what generals are and history is filled with generals or colonels arguing with politicians.

Again, those bombs were dropped to stop an impending bloody war with the soviets. Remember a few things. One, Soviets did not have the bomb. Two, time was of the essence. The soviets were encroaching rapidly. Three, there were no satellites so there was no precision bombing.

The story that the US sold to the world and American people was true to some extent. If they did not drop the bombs, that would have cost hundreds of thousands if not millions of lives lost on all sides. However, what they did not tell was the fact that it was the Soviets that we would have been at war with.

The American public was not aware at the time of the cold war that was going on. Remember, they had spent the previous 4 or 5 years understanding the soviets were allies.

You won't answer the question and I am guessing this paradigm shift is causing problems for you. You deal with it by denying there was a real problem with the soviets. You refuse to believe that a war with the soviets was imminent. Of course immediately following WWII, the cold war was a well documented conflict that lasted 40 years.

Thanks to the left wing commie sympathizers and traitors Stalin got the secrets to the bomb. Shortly after the rosenbergs, the nuclear arms race began.

You are simply naive.

Is your first sentence some kind of ignorant justification for mass murder of innocents?

Please stop with your silliness.

It is clear to anyone willing to think, that the a-bombings were entirely unnecessary and a war crime.

Yeah, this is done. You are extremely naive. You are not aware of the reality of the situation.

You would have chosen war with the USSR.

Good for you.

 

[gipper]

10 Most Devastating Bombing Campaigns of WWII

Considering that Nagasaki is estimated somewhere near 40,000 initially and Hiroshima at about 10,000 that puts both not quite on top of the list for bombing deaths.

Until WW2 the practice of civilian targets was pretty much banned. Armies would assemble in fields and fight it out. England actually changed that when the Germans accidentally bombed part of London, or some civilian target, which lead to the allies bombing of German cities. This was done to distract the Germans from bombing military targets which were determined to be more valuable. Quite the sacrifice.

That said, the use of the atom bombs was hardly less barbaric then the fire bombing of Tokyo or Dresden which resulted in as many or even more horrific casualties.

There was an enemy and the barbaric enemy was defeated with the means provided to the President. He really has nothing to apologize for considering places like Dresden, London and Tokyo. War is hell, and a good thing it is or we would repeat it. (William Tecumseh Sherman)

Does that somehow justify what American forces did to Japan? Does that justify what Truman did in incinerating 200K innocent Japanese women and children?

Why do Americans think Total War acceptable?

Because the State says so...right?