Will the Rich be Lost in Hell ?

[Quatermass]

..or be at home in Hell ?

It is very easy to avoid an uncomfortable truth. However, for those unafraid to ask difficult questions of themselves, read on.

Who is rich? If one defines being ‘rich’ as having an unequal balance of wealth and also that in God’s all seeing eyes comparisons work not only on a local, and national level but also on an international footing, then the parameters of judgement are wide indeed for inhabitants of the 1st World.

Those who are held up as the greatest of figures under the auspices of the Capitalist system. Those captains of industries, the millionaire presidents and financiers; iconic media moguls and the brightest stars of entertainment royalty, are according to the Christian doctrine, esteemed least in the eyes of God:

"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."
Matthew 19:24

"A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight."
Proverbs 11:1

 

[Evangelical]

The experience was not to teach you to be poor, but rather to teach you for whatever sins you are guilty of, stay with Christ. Had the rich man said "I cannot let go my fortunes, but I will follow you" he probably would have been saved because seeing Jesus crucified and resurrected he would have died for Christ, by taking up his cross.

But, also, it is difficult to sanctify yourself if you are addicted to other things, sex, or wealth, etc. Sanctification is important, you should work to do so, we have one purpose, to glorify God, to love Him...but we cannot possibly be perfect, which is why we have saving grace.

And even the rich prince would be blessed with saving grace if only he followed Jesus.

Instead he turned away sad at His teachings.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I think what Evangelical is trying to say here is that being rich is not a sin. It's hard for a rich man to get into Heaven, not because it's inherently wrong and sinful to be rich, but because material wealth and possessions can easily become an idol, something we worship in place of God.

Insofar as one views wealth merely as a means to an end, a way to accomplish goals and help people and do God's work (and yes, providing for your family is God's work as well), then there's no problem.

 

[HUGGY]

..or be at home in Hell ?

It is very easy to avoid an uncomfortable truth. However, for those unafraid to ask difficult questions of themselves, read on.

Who is rich? If one defines being ‘rich’ as having an unequal balance of wealth and also that in God’s all seeing eyes comparisons work not only on a local, and national level but also on an international footing, then the parameters of judgement are wide indeed for inhabitants of the 1st World.

Those who are held up as the greatest of figures under the auspices of the Capitalist system. Those captains of industries, the millionaire presidents and financiers; iconic media moguls and the brightest stars of entertainment royalty, are according to the Christian doctrine, esteemed least in the eyes of God:

"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."
Matthew 19:24

"A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight."
Proverbs 11:1

Are you for real? You goofy christians never cease to amaze. The only "hell" is sharing air with you stupid fucks.

 

[editec]

Being wealthy isn't a crime.

Being smug about it, however, should be.

 

[Dis]

..or be at home in Hell ?

It is very easy to avoid an uncomfortable truth. However, for those unafraid to ask difficult questions of themselves, read on.

Who is rich? If one defines being ‘rich’ as having an unequal balance of wealth and also that in God’s all seeing eyes comparisons work not only on a local, and national level but also on an international footing, then the parameters of judgement are wide indeed for inhabitants of the 1st World.

Those who are held up as the greatest of figures under the auspices of the Capitalist system. Those captains of industries, the millionaire presidents and financiers; iconic media moguls and the brightest stars of entertainment royalty, are according to the Christian doctrine, esteemed least in the eyes of God:

"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."
Matthew 19:24

"A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight."
Proverbs 11:1

Are you for real? You goofy christians never cease to amaze. The only "hell" is sharing air with you stupid fucks.

Feel free to sever your air supply at any time.

 

[Evangelical]

I think what Evangelical is trying to say here is that being rich is not a sin. It's hard for a rich man to get into Heaven, not because it's inherently wrong and sinful to be rich, but because material wealth and possessions can easily become an idol, something we worship in place of God.

Insofar as one views wealth merely as a means to an end, a way to accomplish goals and help people and do God's work (and yes, providing for your family is God's work as well), then there's no problem.

I think you could call wealth a sin, but no more than the material world is sinful, marriage is a sin if marriage causes you to devote yourself more to your spouse than to God, Paul warned of this.

In that time, Jews believed the wealthy were wealthy because they were righteous, and God blessed them. Jesus said, in short, "no, you are righteous because you believe in me. All I ask of you, as an individual, is give up your wealth. If I gave it to you because of your righteousness, then you can give it up for me and be righteous."

Does this mean he had to give up his wealth to go to Heaven? I don't see the evidence of that, all there seems to be evidence of is a rebuking of the Pharisees' teaching that wealth is proof that God loves you.

Because the wealthy Pharisees were corrupt and God did not know them, and Jesus was making that point along with many others.

The most important point being that if you leave Christ, turn from Christ, you will not be saved. So regardless of your problems, at least turn to Him and have faith in Him.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

There is no Hell except Earth while Satan is running it.

 

[Toro]

There is no Hell except Earth while Satan is running it.

Satan, or one's ex-wife.

 

[Quatermass]

Evangelical.

I consider the ethic of Christ's instruction here is in fact a diametrical contradiction of all that is held sacrosanct in today's modern Capitalist ideology.

It is quite necessary that such scripture and sentiments attributable directly to Jesus of Nazareth be omitted, or explained away in contemporary sermon, for they are so incongruous and upsetting to the status quo of religious establishment to represent a direct threat. Hence my warning in the subtext.

You say:

[Evangelical]
"The experience was not to teach you to be poor, but rather to teach you for whatever sins you are guilty of, stay with Christ."

Yet clearly in the passage I print in full bellow, Christ instructs the rich man to in fact become as the poor by distributing his worldly possessions in order to completer his journey towards the Kingdom of God.

And in becoming poor and humble the blessings of the Christian God are forthcoming. A world full of only poor and humble people being a classless world without material iniquities and therefore a land of plenty.

You also say:

[Evangelical]
"...but we cannot possibly be perfect, which is why we have saving grace."

Do you not know Evangelical, that in several passages Christ reiterates that Man is to 'follow him' and 'become perfect' ? And that Grace only 'saves' if it is acted upon ?

For Grace is like the lighthouse which can save ships at night only if the captain duly takes note and steers accordingly.


Matthew 5:

16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[Quatermass]

Cecilie1200

It is not wealth but an inequality of wealth which begets the sin. The Attitude one adopts towards such wealth or even the prospect of acquiring a great wealth is a significant aspects of one’s moral character. The single luxury the rich man could not bear to part with

Every rich man is also a lover of their wealth, for it is this quality (the love of mammon) which constitutes the driving force behind their entrepreneurial endeavours, and indeed the very framework of the profit system in which Humanity now laments.

 

[Avatar4321]

What makes you think money is going to matter in the afterlife?

 

[RodISHI]

Luke 12:15 - 12:36

And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.

And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully: And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits? And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods. But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.
And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on.
The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment.
Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls?
And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?
If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?

Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?
And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind.
For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.
But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.

For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.


Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;
And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

 

[Quatermass]

editec

The thrust of Christ’s message is indeed what you deny: That being rich is a crime in the eyes of God.

Those who wallow in splendour amidst a sea of want, an ocean of exploitation and a backdrop of need are an affront to all that is true and decent. Surely they have had their reward in this life and have no place amongst the children of Heaven?


"And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God."
Luke 6:20

 

[RodISHI]

Pretty wells covers the original question for this conversation.

Romans 10:6-7

But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above

Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

 

[Quatermass]

Avatar

It is the choices and activities enacted in this life which will determine the worth of one’s spiritual remains, and therefore their disposition in the thereafter.

If the prospect of inequality was so attractive in this world then under the auspices of Christian doctrine, surely one will be judged accordingly for the next.

 

[Evangelical]

Quater, Matthew 5 provides evidence for my point.

Jesus did not say "follow me and be perfect" no one following him was perfect.

Jesus said "if thou will be perfect, sell all you have and follow me".

There's two aspects of this, first, the man did not follow him, nor did he sell all he had.

Perfection comes in following Christ, through resurrection.

The man did not sell all he had because it is impossible for anyone to be perfect, there is no example in the Bible of any such person except Jesus Christ.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I think what Evangelical is trying to say here is that being rich is not a sin. It's hard for a rich man to get into Heaven, not because it's inherently wrong and sinful to be rich, but because material wealth and possessions can easily become an idol, something we worship in place of God

Insofar as one views wealth merely as a means to an end, a way to accomplish goals and help people and do God's work (and yes, providing for your family is God's work as well), then there's no problem.

I think you could call wealth a sin, but no more than the material world is sinful, marriage is a sin if marriage causes you to devote yourself more to your spouse than to God, Paul warned of this.

I feel compelled to clarify here. It is not the wealth or the marriage that is the sin. It is, specifically, the act of putting something ahead of God that is a sin.

In that time, Jews believed the wealthy were wealthy because they were righteous, and God blessed them. Jesus said, in short, "no, you are righteous because you believe in me. All I ask of you, as an individual, is give up your wealth. If I gave it to you because of your righteousness, then you can give it up for me and be righteous."

Does this mean he had to give up his wealth to go to Heaven? I don't see the evidence of that, all there seems to be evidence of is a rebuking of the Pharisees' teaching that wealth is proof that God loves you.

Because the wealthy Pharisees were corrupt and God did not know them, and Jesus was making that point along with many others.

The most important point being that if you leave Christ, turn from Christ, you will not be saved. So regardless of your problems, at least turn to Him and have faith in Him.

I agree with this. I don't think God expects all of His followers to give up all money and possessions and wander the world in sackcloth and ashes, panhandling just to eat. How silly that would be. Not to mention the fact that people who obsess on the idea that righteousness = poverty are really just doing the same thing: putting something else ahead of worshipping God, in this case the outward appearance of humility and holiness.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Cecilie1200

It is not wealth but an inequality of wealth which begets the sin. The Attitude one adopts towards such wealth or even the prospect of acquiring a great wealth is a significant aspects of one’s moral character. The single luxury the rich man could not bear to part with

Every rich man is also a lover of their wealth, for it is this quality (the love of mammon) which constitutes the driving force behind their entrepreneurial endeavours, and indeed the very framework of the profit system in which Humanity now laments.

Wrong. It is human nature that begets sin. Always. If you are correct in saying that the attitude one adopts toward wealth is an aspect of moral character, then it is the ATTITUDE that is the sin, not the wealth. And the only thing sinful about an inequaity of wealth is the envy one harbors in one's heart toward those with more. THEY are not sinful for having wealth. YOU are sinful for letting it bother you. If you were truly Christlike, you would love your neighbor enough to rejoice at his good fortune, rather than casting aspersions on him and saying he's sinful for having so much instead of giving it away.

No, every rich man is NOT a lover of their wealth. Ever hear the term "philanthropist"? Many rich people view their wealth as an opportunity to help others. Perhaps the problem here is that YOU cannot be trusted not to make an idol out of material goods, and so project your character flaw onto everyone else.

There is no "lamenting" about profits, unless you are someone who simply cannot hold his own in a competitive, personally responsible system. Capitalism produces not only the material goods necessary to help the less fortunate, it also provides the framework for helping those less fortunate in character, by teaching hard work, thrift, and responsibility. What you seem to suggest is a system where good people refuse to have anything to help others with and leave all material success to the greedy and evil, who will do nothing to alleviate suffering with it. Or you could have a communist system, which encourages sloth, envy, and parasitism. How is THAT helping anyone's moral or spiritual development?

Bottom line: nothing suggests that God expects Christians to be poor, homeless, and utterly lacking in amibtion or a drive for achievement. Christ's instructions to the rich man suggest only that He knew that man was so attached to his material goods that he could not focus on God while he had them. Please do not try to make a virtue out of your own vices and vices out of others' virtues.

 

[Cecilie1200]

What makes you think money is going to matter in the afterlife?

Who ever said it would?