Will the F-5 ever go away?

[Dusty]

Top gun is a complete fucking waste of time as no pilot will ever dogfight again.

*laughs*

*looks up again, laughs even harder*

Oh really now, once again you just inject nonsense and show that you are really John Snow.

The first American air-to-air kill involving manned aircraft in almost two decades opens up a new chapter in American warfare — and perhaps a more dangerous phase of the air war against the Islamic State terror group.

Nobody knows yet what the ramifications will be from the June 18 shootdown of a Syrian Su-22 fighter jet by a Navy F/A-18 Super Hornet, but it — along with Air Force F-15s shooting down drones on two recent occasions — quickly raised tensions in the volatile Syrian theater.

Air-to-air combat is back: How will the Air Force respond as the war over Syria heats up?

The first American air-to-air kill involving manned aircraft in almost two decades opens up a new chapter in American warfare — and perhaps a more dangerous phase of the air war against the Islamic State terror group.

www.airforcetimes.com

OK, so "never again", since 2017. So kindly tell me, what has changed so much in 4 years to have made it obsolete?

There were dozens of air to air kills in the Libyan Civil War. At least 3 Ukrainian fighters were show down in air to air action in 2014.

In the modern era, "dogfighting" is actually primarily used against drones. And the same skills needed to dogfight a drone are those needed to dogfight a real person.

So while true, that "dogfighting" against another manned aircraft is rare, the skill itself and the use are not. And as drones are becoming rapidly more sophisticated, the skill is only going to become more critical. Especially as the newer generations of drones become more "stealthy", and the only way to acquire, target, and destroy them will be increasingly visual.

So please, do as you have every other time and inform us all exactly why dogfighting is obsolete, and will never be used again.

Hypersonic air to air missiles will preclude ever seeing the enemy as will ai drones now under construction by kratos. LOL the Libyan civil war was retards chasing retards. Jesus you are dumb, are they still letting you play with mines

 

[Mushroom]

Hypersonic air to air missiles will preclude ever seeing the enemy as will ai drones now under construction by kratos. LOL the Libyan civil war was retards chasing retards. Jesus you are dumb, are they still letting you play with mines

And over Syria? Ukraine?

No, you said I was stupid. But here is the difference, I came with a reference to show exactly why you were wrong. Again.

As usual, you throw around insults, and then scream you are correct as always. With absolutely no reference, just your own fantasies.

So OK bubba, I will see your insults and nonsense, and ask for a reference. Surely you can pull out something to show that I am wrong from somebody reputable. Right?

And no, I actually do not expect any because I have made challenges to you like this in the past. I give multiple references, you dismiss them all, insist you are right and anybody else is stupid. And never back up anything.

So I am calling you, yet again. You raised, I am calling. Put up or shut up, in other words.

 

[Dusty]

Hypersonic air to air missiles will preclude ever seeing the enemy as will ai drones now under construction by kratos. LOL the Libyan civil war was retards chasing retards. Jesus you are dumb, are they still letting you play with mines

And over Syria? Ukraine?

No, you said I was stupid. But here is the difference, I came with a reference to show exactly why you were wrong. Again.

As usual, you throw around insults, and then scream you are correct as always. With absolutely no reference, just your own fantasies.

So OK bubba, I will see your insults and nonsense, and ask for a reference. Surely you can pull out something to show that I am wrong from somebody reputable. Right?

And no, I actually do not expect any because I have made challenges to you like this in the past. I give multiple references, you dismiss them all, insist you are right and anybody else is stupid. And never back up anything.

So I am calling you, yet again. You raised, I am calling. Put up or shut up, in other words.

Top gun is a waste of time as are the existence of aircraft carriers that can never approach either china or russia and survive.

Unless the USA persist on attacking camels in syria

 

[Mushroom]

Top gun is a waste of time as are the existence of aircraft carriers that can never approach either china or russia and survive.

How boringly predictable. You ignore my reference, and I challenge you to provide your own.

You then simply repeat yourself. How predictable.

 

[Dusty]

Top gun is a waste of time as are the existence of aircraft carriers that can never approach either china or russia and survive.

How boringly predictable. You ignore my reference, and I challenge you to provide your own.

You then simply repeat yourself. How predictable.

Again your reference of retarded Libyans attacking other retarded Libyans with obsolete shit is as pertinent to a real battle between china or russia and the USA as are gingerbread cookies on flag day. You are a little boy trapped in the past, did you hear that Tom Cruise asked to fly a real F18 and an admiral and captain both rolled off the deck.......................

You live in TV not reality, but at least they picked you to dig for mines, I gather that you failed to actually find any

 

[Mushroom]

Again your reference of retarded Libyans attacking other retarded Libyans with obsolete shit

Yet, I notice you ignore the reference with the Su-22 and F/A-18 repeatedly.

Yes, nothing but a troll.

 

[Dayton3]

Not today. The F-5 beat out the F-16 for the agressors squadron for the Navies Top Gun. Starting sometime this year, the F-5 assumes those roles. These are F-5Es and Fs that were made in the 60s. And coming from the Air Force that also still uses them, they operate lower than any other jet in operations. The AF uses them to keep their Bomber and Tanker Pilots concurrent in flying hours to qualify for their flight pay when money gets tight. Plus, the Agressor Squadron for the AF uses the F-5 because it's about the same size as the Mig-21 with similar flight capabilities unless the F-5 is upgraded.

Then there is Brazil. And you thought that Iran was the only one flying them. They are all over the globe in many other Air Forces.

How the F-5E “Tiger” Fighter Jet Keeps Getting Better (Despite Getting Older)

January 13, 2019 Topic: Security Region: Latin America Blog Brand: The Buzz Tags: BrazilF-5AWACSFrench MirageArms Sales

How the F-5E “Tiger” Fighter Jet Keeps Getting Better (Despite Getting Older)


Brazil has some big plans for this old fighter plane.


by Charlie Gao

The F-5E “Tiger” is one of U.S. aerospace industry’s largest export successes. Designed as a budget lightweight fighter, the F-5E is still operated by many nations around the world despite the availability of more modern fighters.

Its continued service is enabled by miniaturization of electronics, which allows for more powerful radars and more systems to be integrated into the same spaces as the original system. This approach is exemplified by the F-5EM operated by Brazil, one of the most advanced variants of the F-5E flying today.


Brazil first acquired F-5Es in 1974 after comparing it to rival NATO light fighters like the Harrier, Jaguar, Fiat G.91 and A-4 Skyhawk. Forty-two units were purchased originally, followed by twenty-six more in the 1980s.

These aircraft served in without much modification until CRUZEX I aerial exercise in 2002. The exercise simulated conflict between the Brazilian Air Force (FAB) and a French Armee de l’Air force equipped with Mirage 2000s with E-3 Sentry AWACS support. The results were abysmal , with France expected to take air superiority in a real conflict despite some good simulated kills by FAB Mirage IIIs.

This sparked a significant push to modernize the FAB’s capability to defend Brazil’s airspace. Modernization of the Mirage III was explored but deemed to be cost ineffective. The F-5E showed much more promise.

In the 1990s, Chile, facing a similar need to modernize, created their own variant, the Tiger III Plus with assistance from Israel Aircraft Industries . A similar program with newer technology could be done with the FAB’s F-5Es.

The program began in the 2000s when a contract was awarded to the Brazilian firm Embraer to modernize forty-six F-5Es with European and Israeli technology. The key aspect of the modernization was to “extend” the legs of the F-5E from being a short-range “point defense” fighter to something that could cover more ground over Brazil’s rather large borders.

To this end, the radar was upgraded to the SELEX Grifo-F, which involved lengthening the nose cone of the aircraft to account for the larger radar antenna. But while the new radar was better, the F-5EM was designed with a secure data link to connect to FAB E-99 AWACS aircraft and ground radars, which were envisioned to vector the F-5s onto a target.

The role of the data link in FAB doctrine is significant. In addition to the dominance displayed by the French Mirages working with E-3s during CRUZEX, the FAB always favored vectoring their fighters from more powerful radars due to poor experience with the original F-5E radar. During a night intercept of a British Vulcan bomber in 1982, the F-5E’s onboard radar was unable to effectively search for the massive aircraft, the fighters were reliant on ground radar.

To take advantage of the additional range given by the data link and radar systems, the Israeli Derby active-radar medium-range air-to-air missile was integrated into the F-5EM. While lighter and shorter ranged than heavier missiles like the AMRAAM and R-27, the missile gave the FAB much-needed beyond-visual-range capability in air-to-air combat, the third nation after Chile and Venezuela to gain such capability.

Many other systems were added or upgraded on the F-5EM. In addition to the Derby, Israeli Python III short-range missiles were integrated. The Israeli DASH helmet mounted display was installed in the cockpit to cue those missiles, making the F-5EM a formidable close range fighter.

A radar-warning receiver, onboard oxygen generation system, hands-on throttle and stick, and INS/GPS navigation are all included. The addition of all these systems came at a cost though. The starboard M39A2 20mm cannon was removed to make space for electronics in the jet.

Finally to address the F-5E’s meager internal fuel capacity, provision for air-to-air refueling was added.

The F-5E modernization program continued through the 2000s and 2010s, with the final jet being delivered in 2013. Eleven additional F-5Es were acquired from the Jordanian Air Force in 2009 to increase the number of the type in FAB service.

Brazilian experts stress that the FAB’s capability gap with neighboring air forces was only narrowed by the upgrade and that the F-5EM still remains an outclassed fighter in modern air combat due to its shortcomings and old-school design. Regardless, it was the best the FAB could do on a limited budget and the resulting craft was quite good for the money spent.

Charlie Gao studied political and computer science at Grinnell College and is a frequent commentator on defense and national-security issues.

Top gun is a complete fucking waste of time as no pilot will ever dogfight again.

That is what the U.S. thought going into the Vietnam War and look how that worked out for us.

In truth almost every air to air engagement since World War Two has been a close range "knife fighting" engagement.

 

[Dusty]

Not today. The F-5 beat out the F-16 for the agressors squadron for the Navies Top Gun. Starting sometime this year, the F-5 assumes those roles. These are F-5Es and Fs that were made in the 60s. And coming from the Air Force that also still uses them, they operate lower than any other jet in operations. The AF uses them to keep their Bomber and Tanker Pilots concurrent in flying hours to qualify for their flight pay when money gets tight. Plus, the Agressor Squadron for the AF uses the F-5 because it's about the same size as the Mig-21 with similar flight capabilities unless the F-5 is upgraded.

Then there is Brazil. And you thought that Iran was the only one flying them. They are all over the globe in many other Air Forces.

How the F-5E “Tiger” Fighter Jet Keeps Getting Better (Despite Getting Older)

January 13, 2019 Topic: Security Region: Latin America Blog Brand: The Buzz Tags: BrazilF-5AWACSFrench MirageArms Sales

How the F-5E “Tiger” Fighter Jet Keeps Getting Better (Despite Getting Older)


Brazil has some big plans for this old fighter plane.


by Charlie Gao

The F-5E “Tiger” is one of U.S. aerospace industry’s largest export successes. Designed as a budget lightweight fighter, the F-5E is still operated by many nations around the world despite the availability of more modern fighters.

Its continued service is enabled by miniaturization of electronics, which allows for more powerful radars and more systems to be integrated into the same spaces as the original system. This approach is exemplified by the F-5EM operated by Brazil, one of the most advanced variants of the F-5E flying today.


Brazil first acquired F-5Es in 1974 after comparing it to rival NATO light fighters like the Harrier, Jaguar, Fiat G.91 and A-4 Skyhawk. Forty-two units were purchased originally, followed by twenty-six more in the 1980s.

These aircraft served in without much modification until CRUZEX I aerial exercise in 2002. The exercise simulated conflict between the Brazilian Air Force (FAB) and a French Armee de l’Air force equipped with Mirage 2000s with E-3 Sentry AWACS support. The results were abysmal , with France expected to take air superiority in a real conflict despite some good simulated kills by FAB Mirage IIIs.

This sparked a significant push to modernize the FAB’s capability to defend Brazil’s airspace. Modernization of the Mirage III was explored but deemed to be cost ineffective. The F-5E showed much more promise.

In the 1990s, Chile, facing a similar need to modernize, created their own variant, the Tiger III Plus with assistance from Israel Aircraft Industries . A similar program with newer technology could be done with the FAB’s F-5Es.

The program began in the 2000s when a contract was awarded to the Brazilian firm Embraer to modernize forty-six F-5Es with European and Israeli technology. The key aspect of the modernization was to “extend” the legs of the F-5E from being a short-range “point defense” fighter to something that could cover more ground over Brazil’s rather large borders.

To this end, the radar was upgraded to the SELEX Grifo-F, which involved lengthening the nose cone of the aircraft to account for the larger radar antenna. But while the new radar was better, the F-5EM was designed with a secure data link to connect to FAB E-99 AWACS aircraft and ground radars, which were envisioned to vector the F-5s onto a target.

The role of the data link in FAB doctrine is significant. In addition to the dominance displayed by the French Mirages working with E-3s during CRUZEX, the FAB always favored vectoring their fighters from more powerful radars due to poor experience with the original F-5E radar. During a night intercept of a British Vulcan bomber in 1982, the F-5E’s onboard radar was unable to effectively search for the massive aircraft, the fighters were reliant on ground radar.

To take advantage of the additional range given by the data link and radar systems, the Israeli Derby active-radar medium-range air-to-air missile was integrated into the F-5EM. While lighter and shorter ranged than heavier missiles like the AMRAAM and R-27, the missile gave the FAB much-needed beyond-visual-range capability in air-to-air combat, the third nation after Chile and Venezuela to gain such capability.

Many other systems were added or upgraded on the F-5EM. In addition to the Derby, Israeli Python III short-range missiles were integrated. The Israeli DASH helmet mounted display was installed in the cockpit to cue those missiles, making the F-5EM a formidable close range fighter.

A radar-warning receiver, onboard oxygen generation system, hands-on throttle and stick, and INS/GPS navigation are all included. The addition of all these systems came at a cost though. The starboard M39A2 20mm cannon was removed to make space for electronics in the jet.

Finally to address the F-5E’s meager internal fuel capacity, provision for air-to-air refueling was added.

The F-5E modernization program continued through the 2000s and 2010s, with the final jet being delivered in 2013. Eleven additional F-5Es were acquired from the Jordanian Air Force in 2009 to increase the number of the type in FAB service.

Brazilian experts stress that the FAB’s capability gap with neighboring air forces was only narrowed by the upgrade and that the F-5EM still remains an outclassed fighter in modern air combat due to its shortcomings and old-school design. Regardless, it was the best the FAB could do on a limited budget and the resulting craft was quite good for the money spent.

Charlie Gao studied political and computer science at Grinnell College and is a frequent commentator on defense and national-security issues.

Top gun is a complete fucking waste of time as no pilot will ever dogfight again.

That is what the U.S. thought going into the Vietnam War and look how that worked out for us.

In truth almost every air to air engagement since World War Two has been a close range "knife fighting" engagement.

Vietnam is over, as there is no way to approach either china or russia with a useless carrier. Since the foe can not be approached there is no way to even use a jet

So were there hypersonic missiles or gps in Vietnam?

The past is over

 

[Vrenn]

Vrenn Yes, but many things the US makes strictly for export, with no intent on using them for themselves.

And I can bring up yet another one with little thought.

In 1978, we started building 4 new destroyers for the Royal Iranian Navy. These were to be based on the Spruance class, but to include major changes, including a vastly improved HVAC system to deal with the heat in the Persian Gulf. And less emphasis on ASW than the Spruance class, with more emphasis on air defense and surface warfare capabilities.

But after the Iranian Revolution, the new government sent a letter to the State Department stating that they no longer wanted the ships. So now the Navy was stuck with 4 ships that it did not really want. This started the saga of one of the most unique classes of ship in the US Navy, known officially as the "Kidd Class Destroyer". But it was most commonly known as the "Dead Admiral" class, as each ship was named after an Admiral that had died in battle. Or the "Ayatollah class", as they were for Iran, but the Ayatollah cancelled the contract.

Admiral Kidd, who died on his flagship, the USS Arizona. Admiral Callaghan, who died during the surface battle at Guadalcanal on the USS San Francisco. Admiral Scott, who also died at Guadalcanal on the USS Atlanta. And finally, Admiral Chandler, after a kamikaze struck the USS Louisville off of Luzon.

But because of their modifications, they spent most of their career in the Persian Gulf, ironically poised against Iran and Iraq. And as a pre-AEGIS system, they also became a test bed for future AEGIS upgrades and configurations.

Finally in 1999 they were retired after a proposal to sell them to Australia fell through. And after a similar deal to sell them to Greece failed, they were bought by Taiwan. Where the four ships are known as the Kee Lung class destroyer.

This was yet another item that the US never intended on using, it was literally built in the window right before the Arliegh Burke class destroyers, which was from the inception to have been a fully AEGIS class ship. This was made for export, so had some parts that were compatible, but many more that were not. The US was only using them because the purchaser basically ceased to exist between keep laying and delivery.

The F-5 was intended for export but due to the needs of the service (primarily the USAF) it was introduced into USAF. There was a huge gap between the A-7 and the F-4 and the cost to fill that role with the F-4 was just insane. So they took an off the shelf export bird and used it instead. Remember, at that time, the F-4 did not have a gun and if it got into a lufbery circle with a Mig 17 or 21, it had to just ride it out and hope that it could get a lucky missile shot. Until the F-4E was introduced, the F-4 had to have gun pods and they weren't real accurate. But the F-5 had two 20mm guns and could tear a Mig-21 to pieces in a dog fight even though the F-5s were primarily used for light ground attack. But the North Vietnamese Pilots were famous for picking their fights well.

After Vietnam, the role that the F-5 played was filled by the F-16. But in the adversary flyoffs, an updated F-5 is well up to competing with a modern F-16. But USAF isn't going to go out and buy a bunch of them. But other countries are wise that they are. Cheap, easy to fly, easy to maintain, can fly against anything short of a 5th gen. Whats not to like.

 

[Vrenn]

Not today. The F-5 beat out the F-16 for the agressors squadron for the Navies Top Gun. Starting sometime this year, the F-5 assumes those roles. These are F-5Es and Fs that were made in the 60s. And coming from the Air Force that also still uses them, they operate lower than any other jet in operations. The AF uses them to keep their Bomber and Tanker Pilots concurrent in flying hours to qualify for their flight pay when money gets tight. Plus, the Agressor Squadron for the AF uses the F-5 because it's about the same size as the Mig-21 with similar flight capabilities unless the F-5 is upgraded.

Then there is Brazil. And you thought that Iran was the only one flying them. They are all over the globe in many other Air Forces.

How the F-5E “Tiger” Fighter Jet Keeps Getting Better (Despite Getting Older)

January 13, 2019 Topic: Security Region: Latin America Blog Brand: The Buzz Tags: BrazilF-5AWACSFrench MirageArms Sales

How the F-5E “Tiger” Fighter Jet Keeps Getting Better (Despite Getting Older)


Brazil has some big plans for this old fighter plane.


by Charlie Gao

The F-5E “Tiger” is one of U.S. aerospace industry’s largest export successes. Designed as a budget lightweight fighter, the F-5E is still operated by many nations around the world despite the availability of more modern fighters.

Its continued service is enabled by miniaturization of electronics, which allows for more powerful radars and more systems to be integrated into the same spaces as the original system. This approach is exemplified by the F-5EM operated by Brazil, one of the most advanced variants of the F-5E flying today.


Brazil first acquired F-5Es in 1974 after comparing it to rival NATO light fighters like the Harrier, Jaguar, Fiat G.91 and A-4 Skyhawk. Forty-two units were purchased originally, followed by twenty-six more in the 1980s.

These aircraft served in without much modification until CRUZEX I aerial exercise in 2002. The exercise simulated conflict between the Brazilian Air Force (FAB) and a French Armee de l’Air force equipped with Mirage 2000s with E-3 Sentry AWACS support. The results were abysmal , with France expected to take air superiority in a real conflict despite some good simulated kills by FAB Mirage IIIs.

This sparked a significant push to modernize the FAB’s capability to defend Brazil’s airspace. Modernization of the Mirage III was explored but deemed to be cost ineffective. The F-5E showed much more promise.

In the 1990s, Chile, facing a similar need to modernize, created their own variant, the Tiger III Plus with assistance from Israel Aircraft Industries . A similar program with newer technology could be done with the FAB’s F-5Es.

The program began in the 2000s when a contract was awarded to the Brazilian firm Embraer to modernize forty-six F-5Es with European and Israeli technology. The key aspect of the modernization was to “extend” the legs of the F-5E from being a short-range “point defense” fighter to something that could cover more ground over Brazil’s rather large borders.

To this end, the radar was upgraded to the SELEX Grifo-F, which involved lengthening the nose cone of the aircraft to account for the larger radar antenna. But while the new radar was better, the F-5EM was designed with a secure data link to connect to FAB E-99 AWACS aircraft and ground radars, which were envisioned to vector the F-5s onto a target.

The role of the data link in FAB doctrine is significant. In addition to the dominance displayed by the French Mirages working with E-3s during CRUZEX, the FAB always favored vectoring their fighters from more powerful radars due to poor experience with the original F-5E radar. During a night intercept of a British Vulcan bomber in 1982, the F-5E’s onboard radar was unable to effectively search for the massive aircraft, the fighters were reliant on ground radar.

To take advantage of the additional range given by the data link and radar systems, the Israeli Derby active-radar medium-range air-to-air missile was integrated into the F-5EM. While lighter and shorter ranged than heavier missiles like the AMRAAM and R-27, the missile gave the FAB much-needed beyond-visual-range capability in air-to-air combat, the third nation after Chile and Venezuela to gain such capability.

Many other systems were added or upgraded on the F-5EM. In addition to the Derby, Israeli Python III short-range missiles were integrated. The Israeli DASH helmet mounted display was installed in the cockpit to cue those missiles, making the F-5EM a formidable close range fighter.

A radar-warning receiver, onboard oxygen generation system, hands-on throttle and stick, and INS/GPS navigation are all included. The addition of all these systems came at a cost though. The starboard M39A2 20mm cannon was removed to make space for electronics in the jet.

Finally to address the F-5E’s meager internal fuel capacity, provision for air-to-air refueling was added.

The F-5E modernization program continued through the 2000s and 2010s, with the final jet being delivered in 2013. Eleven additional F-5Es were acquired from the Jordanian Air Force in 2009 to increase the number of the type in FAB service.

Brazilian experts stress that the FAB’s capability gap with neighboring air forces was only narrowed by the upgrade and that the F-5EM still remains an outclassed fighter in modern air combat due to its shortcomings and old-school design. Regardless, it was the best the FAB could do on a limited budget and the resulting craft was quite good for the money spent.

Charlie Gao studied political and computer science at Grinnell College and is a frequent commentator on defense and national-security issues.

Top gun is a complete fucking waste of time as no pilot will ever dogfight again.

That is what the U.S. thought going into the Vietnam War and look how that worked out for us.

In truth almost every air to air engagement since World War Two has been a close range "knife fighting" engagement.

I remember when the F-4E made it appearance in SEA. All of a sudden those Lufbury Circles changed because the F-4E had teeth when it's missiles were neutralized. The North Vietnamese Pilots didn't want to play that anymore.

 

[Dusty]

Not today. The F-5 beat out the F-16 for the agressors squadron for the Navies Top Gun. Starting sometime this year, the F-5 assumes those roles. These are F-5Es and Fs that were made in the 60s. And coming from the Air Force that also still uses them, they operate lower than any other jet in operations. The AF uses them to keep their Bomber and Tanker Pilots concurrent in flying hours to qualify for their flight pay when money gets tight. Plus, the Agressor Squadron for the AF uses the F-5 because it's about the same size as the Mig-21 with similar flight capabilities unless the F-5 is upgraded.

Then there is Brazil. And you thought that Iran was the only one flying them. They are all over the globe in many other Air Forces.

How the F-5E “Tiger” Fighter Jet Keeps Getting Better (Despite Getting Older)

January 13, 2019 Topic: Security Region: Latin America Blog Brand: The Buzz Tags: BrazilF-5AWACSFrench MirageArms Sales

How the F-5E “Tiger” Fighter Jet Keeps Getting Better (Despite Getting Older)


Brazil has some big plans for this old fighter plane.


by Charlie Gao

The F-5E “Tiger” is one of U.S. aerospace industry’s largest export successes. Designed as a budget lightweight fighter, the F-5E is still operated by many nations around the world despite the availability of more modern fighters.

Its continued service is enabled by miniaturization of electronics, which allows for more powerful radars and more systems to be integrated into the same spaces as the original system. This approach is exemplified by the F-5EM operated by Brazil, one of the most advanced variants of the F-5E flying today.


Brazil first acquired F-5Es in 1974 after comparing it to rival NATO light fighters like the Harrier, Jaguar, Fiat G.91 and A-4 Skyhawk. Forty-two units were purchased originally, followed by twenty-six more in the 1980s.

These aircraft served in without much modification until CRUZEX I aerial exercise in 2002. The exercise simulated conflict between the Brazilian Air Force (FAB) and a French Armee de l’Air force equipped with Mirage 2000s with E-3 Sentry AWACS support. The results were abysmal , with France expected to take air superiority in a real conflict despite some good simulated kills by FAB Mirage IIIs.

This sparked a significant push to modernize the FAB’s capability to defend Brazil’s airspace. Modernization of the Mirage III was explored but deemed to be cost ineffective. The F-5E showed much more promise.

In the 1990s, Chile, facing a similar need to modernize, created their own variant, the Tiger III Plus with assistance from Israel Aircraft Industries . A similar program with newer technology could be done with the FAB’s F-5Es.

The program began in the 2000s when a contract was awarded to the Brazilian firm Embraer to modernize forty-six F-5Es with European and Israeli technology. The key aspect of the modernization was to “extend” the legs of the F-5E from being a short-range “point defense” fighter to something that could cover more ground over Brazil’s rather large borders.

To this end, the radar was upgraded to the SELEX Grifo-F, which involved lengthening the nose cone of the aircraft to account for the larger radar antenna. But while the new radar was better, the F-5EM was designed with a secure data link to connect to FAB E-99 AWACS aircraft and ground radars, which were envisioned to vector the F-5s onto a target.

The role of the data link in FAB doctrine is significant. In addition to the dominance displayed by the French Mirages working with E-3s during CRUZEX, the FAB always favored vectoring their fighters from more powerful radars due to poor experience with the original F-5E radar. During a night intercept of a British Vulcan bomber in 1982, the F-5E’s onboard radar was unable to effectively search for the massive aircraft, the fighters were reliant on ground radar.

To take advantage of the additional range given by the data link and radar systems, the Israeli Derby active-radar medium-range air-to-air missile was integrated into the F-5EM. While lighter and shorter ranged than heavier missiles like the AMRAAM and R-27, the missile gave the FAB much-needed beyond-visual-range capability in air-to-air combat, the third nation after Chile and Venezuela to gain such capability.

Many other systems were added or upgraded on the F-5EM. In addition to the Derby, Israeli Python III short-range missiles were integrated. The Israeli DASH helmet mounted display was installed in the cockpit to cue those missiles, making the F-5EM a formidable close range fighter.

A radar-warning receiver, onboard oxygen generation system, hands-on throttle and stick, and INS/GPS navigation are all included. The addition of all these systems came at a cost though. The starboard M39A2 20mm cannon was removed to make space for electronics in the jet.

Finally to address the F-5E’s meager internal fuel capacity, provision for air-to-air refueling was added.

The F-5E modernization program continued through the 2000s and 2010s, with the final jet being delivered in 2013. Eleven additional F-5Es were acquired from the Jordanian Air Force in 2009 to increase the number of the type in FAB service.

Brazilian experts stress that the FAB’s capability gap with neighboring air forces was only narrowed by the upgrade and that the F-5EM still remains an outclassed fighter in modern air combat due to its shortcomings and old-school design. Regardless, it was the best the FAB could do on a limited budget and the resulting craft was quite good for the money spent.

Charlie Gao studied political and computer science at Grinnell College and is a frequent commentator on defense and national-security issues.

Top gun is a complete fucking waste of time as no pilot will ever dogfight again.

That is what the U.S. thought going into the Vietnam War and look how that worked out for us.

In truth almost every air to air engagement since World War Two has been a close range "knife fighting" engagement.

I remember when the F-4E made it appearance in SEA. All of a sudden those Lufbury Circles changed because the F-4E had teeth when it's missiles were neutralized. The North Vietnamese Pilots didn't want to play that anymore.

North Vietnamese pilots? What were they flying

 

[Vrenn]

Not today. The F-5 beat out the F-16 for the agressors squadron for the Navies Top Gun. Starting sometime this year, the F-5 assumes those roles. These are F-5Es and Fs that were made in the 60s. And coming from the Air Force that also still uses them, they operate lower than any other jet in operations. The AF uses them to keep their Bomber and Tanker Pilots concurrent in flying hours to qualify for their flight pay when money gets tight. Plus, the Agressor Squadron for the AF uses the F-5 because it's about the same size as the Mig-21 with similar flight capabilities unless the F-5 is upgraded.

Then there is Brazil. And you thought that Iran was the only one flying them. They are all over the globe in many other Air Forces.

How the F-5E “Tiger” Fighter Jet Keeps Getting Better (Despite Getting Older)

January 13, 2019 Topic: Security Region: Latin America Blog Brand: The Buzz Tags: BrazilF-5AWACSFrench MirageArms Sales

How the F-5E “Tiger” Fighter Jet Keeps Getting Better (Despite Getting Older)


Brazil has some big plans for this old fighter plane.


by Charlie Gao

The F-5E “Tiger” is one of U.S. aerospace industry’s largest export successes. Designed as a budget lightweight fighter, the F-5E is still operated by many nations around the world despite the availability of more modern fighters.

Its continued service is enabled by miniaturization of electronics, which allows for more powerful radars and more systems to be integrated into the same spaces as the original system. This approach is exemplified by the F-5EM operated by Brazil, one of the most advanced variants of the F-5E flying today.


Brazil first acquired F-5Es in 1974 after comparing it to rival NATO light fighters like the Harrier, Jaguar, Fiat G.91 and A-4 Skyhawk. Forty-two units were purchased originally, followed by twenty-six more in the 1980s.

These aircraft served in without much modification until CRUZEX I aerial exercise in 2002. The exercise simulated conflict between the Brazilian Air Force (FAB) and a French Armee de l’Air force equipped with Mirage 2000s with E-3 Sentry AWACS support. The results were abysmal , with France expected to take air superiority in a real conflict despite some good simulated kills by FAB Mirage IIIs.

This sparked a significant push to modernize the FAB’s capability to defend Brazil’s airspace. Modernization of the Mirage III was explored but deemed to be cost ineffective. The F-5E showed much more promise.

In the 1990s, Chile, facing a similar need to modernize, created their own variant, the Tiger III Plus with assistance from Israel Aircraft Industries . A similar program with newer technology could be done with the FAB’s F-5Es.

The program began in the 2000s when a contract was awarded to the Brazilian firm Embraer to modernize forty-six F-5Es with European and Israeli technology. The key aspect of the modernization was to “extend” the legs of the F-5E from being a short-range “point defense” fighter to something that could cover more ground over Brazil’s rather large borders.

To this end, the radar was upgraded to the SELEX Grifo-F, which involved lengthening the nose cone of the aircraft to account for the larger radar antenna. But while the new radar was better, the F-5EM was designed with a secure data link to connect to FAB E-99 AWACS aircraft and ground radars, which were envisioned to vector the F-5s onto a target.

The role of the data link in FAB doctrine is significant. In addition to the dominance displayed by the French Mirages working with E-3s during CRUZEX, the FAB always favored vectoring their fighters from more powerful radars due to poor experience with the original F-5E radar. During a night intercept of a British Vulcan bomber in 1982, the F-5E’s onboard radar was unable to effectively search for the massive aircraft, the fighters were reliant on ground radar.

To take advantage of the additional range given by the data link and radar systems, the Israeli Derby active-radar medium-range air-to-air missile was integrated into the F-5EM. While lighter and shorter ranged than heavier missiles like the AMRAAM and R-27, the missile gave the FAB much-needed beyond-visual-range capability in air-to-air combat, the third nation after Chile and Venezuela to gain such capability.

Many other systems were added or upgraded on the F-5EM. In addition to the Derby, Israeli Python III short-range missiles were integrated. The Israeli DASH helmet mounted display was installed in the cockpit to cue those missiles, making the F-5EM a formidable close range fighter.

A radar-warning receiver, onboard oxygen generation system, hands-on throttle and stick, and INS/GPS navigation are all included. The addition of all these systems came at a cost though. The starboard M39A2 20mm cannon was removed to make space for electronics in the jet.

Finally to address the F-5E’s meager internal fuel capacity, provision for air-to-air refueling was added.

The F-5E modernization program continued through the 2000s and 2010s, with the final jet being delivered in 2013. Eleven additional F-5Es were acquired from the Jordanian Air Force in 2009 to increase the number of the type in FAB service.

Brazilian experts stress that the FAB’s capability gap with neighboring air forces was only narrowed by the upgrade and that the F-5EM still remains an outclassed fighter in modern air combat due to its shortcomings and old-school design. Regardless, it was the best the FAB could do on a limited budget and the resulting craft was quite good for the money spent.

Charlie Gao studied political and computer science at Grinnell College and is a frequent commentator on defense and national-security issues.

Top gun is a complete fucking waste of time as no pilot will ever dogfight again.

That is what the U.S. thought going into the Vietnam War and look how that worked out for us.

In truth almost every air to air engagement since World War Two has been a close range "knife fighting" engagement.

Vietnam is over, as there is no way to approach either china or russia with a useless carrier. Since the foe can not be approached there is no way to even use a jet

So were there hypersonic missiles or gps in Vietnam?

The past is over

Who told you that? The Carrier has more range not than it ever has before. With the addition of the F-35B and Cs, it's missiles now have many times the range and now go over the horizon. And those so called Hyper Sonic Extreme Ranged Missiles don't friggin work for either Russia or China. Too many variables to get right where any variable that fails means the whole missile goes dumb.

I have followed scenerios on what it takes to kill a US Carrier Group. Believe it or not, nothing that either Russia nor China has can do that job. In fact, only the US has that capability and would have to take the old Iowa Class Battleships out of Mothballs and make a Super BB Battle Group. Sorry, but Stealth won't work, Hypersonic weapons won't work and even nuclear will fail. But a Death Star would work. The other types that would defeat a modern Carrier Group all have been sunk during WWII because they were used by the Japanese, Germans and Italians. Remember, you are going to have to be shooting where they will be, not where they are at because by the time your weapons transit, you are at least 47 miles off target.

 

[Dusty]

Not today. The F-5 beat out the F-16 for the agressors squadron for the Navies Top Gun. Starting sometime this year, the F-5 assumes those roles. These are F-5Es and Fs that were made in the 60s. And coming from the Air Force that also still uses them, they operate lower than any other jet in operations. The AF uses them to keep their Bomber and Tanker Pilots concurrent in flying hours to qualify for their flight pay when money gets tight. Plus, the Agressor Squadron for the AF uses the F-5 because it's about the same size as the Mig-21 with similar flight capabilities unless the F-5 is upgraded.

Then there is Brazil. And you thought that Iran was the only one flying them. They are all over the globe in many other Air Forces.

How the F-5E “Tiger” Fighter Jet Keeps Getting Better (Despite Getting Older)

January 13, 2019 Topic: Security Region: Latin America Blog Brand: The Buzz Tags: BrazilF-5AWACSFrench MirageArms Sales

How the F-5E “Tiger” Fighter Jet Keeps Getting Better (Despite Getting Older)


Brazil has some big plans for this old fighter plane.


by Charlie Gao

The F-5E “Tiger” is one of U.S. aerospace industry’s largest export successes. Designed as a budget lightweight fighter, the F-5E is still operated by many nations around the world despite the availability of more modern fighters.

Its continued service is enabled by miniaturization of electronics, which allows for more powerful radars and more systems to be integrated into the same spaces as the original system. This approach is exemplified by the F-5EM operated by Brazil, one of the most advanced variants of the F-5E flying today.


Brazil first acquired F-5Es in 1974 after comparing it to rival NATO light fighters like the Harrier, Jaguar, Fiat G.91 and A-4 Skyhawk. Forty-two units were purchased originally, followed by twenty-six more in the 1980s.

These aircraft served in without much modification until CRUZEX I aerial exercise in 2002. The exercise simulated conflict between the Brazilian Air Force (FAB) and a French Armee de l’Air force equipped with Mirage 2000s with E-3 Sentry AWACS support. The results were abysmal , with France expected to take air superiority in a real conflict despite some good simulated kills by FAB Mirage IIIs.

This sparked a significant push to modernize the FAB’s capability to defend Brazil’s airspace. Modernization of the Mirage III was explored but deemed to be cost ineffective. The F-5E showed much more promise.

In the 1990s, Chile, facing a similar need to modernize, created their own variant, the Tiger III Plus with assistance from Israel Aircraft Industries . A similar program with newer technology could be done with the FAB’s F-5Es.

The program began in the 2000s when a contract was awarded to the Brazilian firm Embraer to modernize forty-six F-5Es with European and Israeli technology. The key aspect of the modernization was to “extend” the legs of the F-5E from being a short-range “point defense” fighter to something that could cover more ground over Brazil’s rather large borders.

To this end, the radar was upgraded to the SELEX Grifo-F, which involved lengthening the nose cone of the aircraft to account for the larger radar antenna. But while the new radar was better, the F-5EM was designed with a secure data link to connect to FAB E-99 AWACS aircraft and ground radars, which were envisioned to vector the F-5s onto a target.

The role of the data link in FAB doctrine is significant. In addition to the dominance displayed by the French Mirages working with E-3s during CRUZEX, the FAB always favored vectoring their fighters from more powerful radars due to poor experience with the original F-5E radar. During a night intercept of a British Vulcan bomber in 1982, the F-5E’s onboard radar was unable to effectively search for the massive aircraft, the fighters were reliant on ground radar.

To take advantage of the additional range given by the data link and radar systems, the Israeli Derby active-radar medium-range air-to-air missile was integrated into the F-5EM. While lighter and shorter ranged than heavier missiles like the AMRAAM and R-27, the missile gave the FAB much-needed beyond-visual-range capability in air-to-air combat, the third nation after Chile and Venezuela to gain such capability.

Many other systems were added or upgraded on the F-5EM. In addition to the Derby, Israeli Python III short-range missiles were integrated. The Israeli DASH helmet mounted display was installed in the cockpit to cue those missiles, making the F-5EM a formidable close range fighter.

A radar-warning receiver, onboard oxygen generation system, hands-on throttle and stick, and INS/GPS navigation are all included. The addition of all these systems came at a cost though. The starboard M39A2 20mm cannon was removed to make space for electronics in the jet.

Finally to address the F-5E’s meager internal fuel capacity, provision for air-to-air refueling was added.

The F-5E modernization program continued through the 2000s and 2010s, with the final jet being delivered in 2013. Eleven additional F-5Es were acquired from the Jordanian Air Force in 2009 to increase the number of the type in FAB service.

Brazilian experts stress that the FAB’s capability gap with neighboring air forces was only narrowed by the upgrade and that the F-5EM still remains an outclassed fighter in modern air combat due to its shortcomings and old-school design. Regardless, it was the best the FAB could do on a limited budget and the resulting craft was quite good for the money spent.

Charlie Gao studied political and computer science at Grinnell College and is a frequent commentator on defense and national-security issues.

Top gun is a complete fucking waste of time as no pilot will ever dogfight again.

That is what the U.S. thought going into the Vietnam War and look how that worked out for us.

In truth almost every air to air engagement since World War Two has been a close range "knife fighting" engagement.

Vietnam is over, as there is no way to approach either china or russia with a useless carrier. Since the foe can not be approached there is no way to even use a jet

So were there hypersonic missiles or gps in Vietnam?

The past is over

Who told you that? The Carrier has more range not than it ever has before. With the addition of the F-35B and Cs, it's missiles now have many times the range and now go over the horizon. And those so called Hyper Sonic Extreme Ranged Missiles don't friggin work for either Russia or China. Too many variables to get right where any variable that fails means the whole missile goes dumb.

I have followed scenerios on what it takes to kill a US Carrier Group. Believe it or not, nothing that either Russia nor China has can do that job. In fact, only the US has that capability and would have to take the old Iowa Class Battleships out of Mothballs and make a Super BB Battle Group. Sorry, but Stealth won't work, Hypersonic weapons won't work and even nuclear will fail. But a Death Star would work. The other types that would defeat a modern Carrier Group all have been sunk during WWII because they were used by the Japanese, Germans and Italians. Remember, you are going to have to be shooting where they will be, not where they are at because by the time your weapons transit, you are at least 47 miles off target.

The carrier has no range against russia or china as if one were ever used it would be sunk before the jets could return. That said carriers can still attack camels as they have been

 

[Vrenn]

Not today. The F-5 beat out the F-16 for the agressors squadron for the Navies Top Gun. Starting sometime this year, the F-5 assumes those roles. These are F-5Es and Fs that were made in the 60s. And coming from the Air Force that also still uses them, they operate lower than any other jet in operations. The AF uses them to keep their Bomber and Tanker Pilots concurrent in flying hours to qualify for their flight pay when money gets tight. Plus, the Agressor Squadron for the AF uses the F-5 because it's about the same size as the Mig-21 with similar flight capabilities unless the F-5 is upgraded.

Then there is Brazil. And you thought that Iran was the only one flying them. They are all over the globe in many other Air Forces.

How the F-5E “Tiger” Fighter Jet Keeps Getting Better (Despite Getting Older)

January 13, 2019 Topic: Security Region: Latin America Blog Brand: The Buzz Tags: BrazilF-5AWACSFrench MirageArms Sales

How the F-5E “Tiger” Fighter Jet Keeps Getting Better (Despite Getting Older)


Brazil has some big plans for this old fighter plane.


by Charlie Gao

The F-5E “Tiger” is one of U.S. aerospace industry’s largest export successes. Designed as a budget lightweight fighter, the F-5E is still operated by many nations around the world despite the availability of more modern fighters.

Its continued service is enabled by miniaturization of electronics, which allows for more powerful radars and more systems to be integrated into the same spaces as the original system. This approach is exemplified by the F-5EM operated by Brazil, one of the most advanced variants of the F-5E flying today.


Brazil first acquired F-5Es in 1974 after comparing it to rival NATO light fighters like the Harrier, Jaguar, Fiat G.91 and A-4 Skyhawk. Forty-two units were purchased originally, followed by twenty-six more in the 1980s.

These aircraft served in without much modification until CRUZEX I aerial exercise in 2002. The exercise simulated conflict between the Brazilian Air Force (FAB) and a French Armee de l’Air force equipped with Mirage 2000s with E-3 Sentry AWACS support. The results were abysmal , with France expected to take air superiority in a real conflict despite some good simulated kills by FAB Mirage IIIs.

This sparked a significant push to modernize the FAB’s capability to defend Brazil’s airspace. Modernization of the Mirage III was explored but deemed to be cost ineffective. The F-5E showed much more promise.

In the 1990s, Chile, facing a similar need to modernize, created their own variant, the Tiger III Plus with assistance from Israel Aircraft Industries . A similar program with newer technology could be done with the FAB’s F-5Es.

The program began in the 2000s when a contract was awarded to the Brazilian firm Embraer to modernize forty-six F-5Es with European and Israeli technology. The key aspect of the modernization was to “extend” the legs of the F-5E from being a short-range “point defense” fighter to something that could cover more ground over Brazil’s rather large borders.

To this end, the radar was upgraded to the SELEX Grifo-F, which involved lengthening the nose cone of the aircraft to account for the larger radar antenna. But while the new radar was better, the F-5EM was designed with a secure data link to connect to FAB E-99 AWACS aircraft and ground radars, which were envisioned to vector the F-5s onto a target.

The role of the data link in FAB doctrine is significant. In addition to the dominance displayed by the French Mirages working with E-3s during CRUZEX, the FAB always favored vectoring their fighters from more powerful radars due to poor experience with the original F-5E radar. During a night intercept of a British Vulcan bomber in 1982, the F-5E’s onboard radar was unable to effectively search for the massive aircraft, the fighters were reliant on ground radar.

To take advantage of the additional range given by the data link and radar systems, the Israeli Derby active-radar medium-range air-to-air missile was integrated into the F-5EM. While lighter and shorter ranged than heavier missiles like the AMRAAM and R-27, the missile gave the FAB much-needed beyond-visual-range capability in air-to-air combat, the third nation after Chile and Venezuela to gain such capability.

Many other systems were added or upgraded on the F-5EM. In addition to the Derby, Israeli Python III short-range missiles were integrated. The Israeli DASH helmet mounted display was installed in the cockpit to cue those missiles, making the F-5EM a formidable close range fighter.

A radar-warning receiver, onboard oxygen generation system, hands-on throttle and stick, and INS/GPS navigation are all included. The addition of all these systems came at a cost though. The starboard M39A2 20mm cannon was removed to make space for electronics in the jet.

Finally to address the F-5E’s meager internal fuel capacity, provision for air-to-air refueling was added.

The F-5E modernization program continued through the 2000s and 2010s, with the final jet being delivered in 2013. Eleven additional F-5Es were acquired from the Jordanian Air Force in 2009 to increase the number of the type in FAB service.

Brazilian experts stress that the FAB’s capability gap with neighboring air forces was only narrowed by the upgrade and that the F-5EM still remains an outclassed fighter in modern air combat due to its shortcomings and old-school design. Regardless, it was the best the FAB could do on a limited budget and the resulting craft was quite good for the money spent.

Charlie Gao studied political and computer science at Grinnell College and is a frequent commentator on defense and national-security issues.

Top gun is a complete fucking waste of time as no pilot will ever dogfight again.

That is what the U.S. thought going into the Vietnam War and look how that worked out for us.

In truth almost every air to air engagement since World War Two has been a close range "knife fighting" engagement.

I remember when the F-4E made it appearance in SEA. All of a sudden those Lufbury Circles changed because the F-4E had teeth when it's missiles were neutralized. The North Vietnamese Pilots didn't want to play that anymore.

North Vietnamese pilots? What were they flying

Mig-17, Mig-19 and Mig-21. The Mig-19 and 21 were also missile carriers and Mach 2 birds. And all 3 had cannons.

 

[Vrenn]

Not today. The F-5 beat out the F-16 for the agressors squadron for the Navies Top Gun. Starting sometime this year, the F-5 assumes those roles. These are F-5Es and Fs that were made in the 60s. And coming from the Air Force that also still uses them, they operate lower than any other jet in operations. The AF uses them to keep their Bomber and Tanker Pilots concurrent in flying hours to qualify for their flight pay when money gets tight. Plus, the Agressor Squadron for the AF uses the F-5 because it's about the same size as the Mig-21 with similar flight capabilities unless the F-5 is upgraded.

Then there is Brazil. And you thought that Iran was the only one flying them. They are all over the globe in many other Air Forces.

How the F-5E “Tiger” Fighter Jet Keeps Getting Better (Despite Getting Older)

January 13, 2019 Topic: Security Region: Latin America Blog Brand: The Buzz Tags: BrazilF-5AWACSFrench MirageArms Sales

How the F-5E “Tiger” Fighter Jet Keeps Getting Better (Despite Getting Older)


Brazil has some big plans for this old fighter plane.


by Charlie Gao

The F-5E “Tiger” is one of U.S. aerospace industry’s largest export successes. Designed as a budget lightweight fighter, the F-5E is still operated by many nations around the world despite the availability of more modern fighters.

Its continued service is enabled by miniaturization of electronics, which allows for more powerful radars and more systems to be integrated into the same spaces as the original system. This approach is exemplified by the F-5EM operated by Brazil, one of the most advanced variants of the F-5E flying today.


Brazil first acquired F-5Es in 1974 after comparing it to rival NATO light fighters like the Harrier, Jaguar, Fiat G.91 and A-4 Skyhawk. Forty-two units were purchased originally, followed by twenty-six more in the 1980s.

These aircraft served in without much modification until CRUZEX I aerial exercise in 2002. The exercise simulated conflict between the Brazilian Air Force (FAB) and a French Armee de l’Air force equipped with Mirage 2000s with E-3 Sentry AWACS support. The results were abysmal , with France expected to take air superiority in a real conflict despite some good simulated kills by FAB Mirage IIIs.

This sparked a significant push to modernize the FAB’s capability to defend Brazil’s airspace. Modernization of the Mirage III was explored but deemed to be cost ineffective. The F-5E showed much more promise.

In the 1990s, Chile, facing a similar need to modernize, created their own variant, the Tiger III Plus with assistance from Israel Aircraft Industries . A similar program with newer technology could be done with the FAB’s F-5Es.

The program began in the 2000s when a contract was awarded to the Brazilian firm Embraer to modernize forty-six F-5Es with European and Israeli technology. The key aspect of the modernization was to “extend” the legs of the F-5E from being a short-range “point defense” fighter to something that could cover more ground over Brazil’s rather large borders.

To this end, the radar was upgraded to the SELEX Grifo-F, which involved lengthening the nose cone of the aircraft to account for the larger radar antenna. But while the new radar was better, the F-5EM was designed with a secure data link to connect to FAB E-99 AWACS aircraft and ground radars, which were envisioned to vector the F-5s onto a target.

The role of the data link in FAB doctrine is significant. In addition to the dominance displayed by the French Mirages working with E-3s during CRUZEX, the FAB always favored vectoring their fighters from more powerful radars due to poor experience with the original F-5E radar. During a night intercept of a British Vulcan bomber in 1982, the F-5E’s onboard radar was unable to effectively search for the massive aircraft, the fighters were reliant on ground radar.

To take advantage of the additional range given by the data link and radar systems, the Israeli Derby active-radar medium-range air-to-air missile was integrated into the F-5EM. While lighter and shorter ranged than heavier missiles like the AMRAAM and R-27, the missile gave the FAB much-needed beyond-visual-range capability in air-to-air combat, the third nation after Chile and Venezuela to gain such capability.

Many other systems were added or upgraded on the F-5EM. In addition to the Derby, Israeli Python III short-range missiles were integrated. The Israeli DASH helmet mounted display was installed in the cockpit to cue those missiles, making the F-5EM a formidable close range fighter.

A radar-warning receiver, onboard oxygen generation system, hands-on throttle and stick, and INS/GPS navigation are all included. The addition of all these systems came at a cost though. The starboard M39A2 20mm cannon was removed to make space for electronics in the jet.

Finally to address the F-5E’s meager internal fuel capacity, provision for air-to-air refueling was added.

The F-5E modernization program continued through the 2000s and 2010s, with the final jet being delivered in 2013. Eleven additional F-5Es were acquired from the Jordanian Air Force in 2009 to increase the number of the type in FAB service.

Brazilian experts stress that the FAB’s capability gap with neighboring air forces was only narrowed by the upgrade and that the F-5EM still remains an outclassed fighter in modern air combat due to its shortcomings and old-school design. Regardless, it was the best the FAB could do on a limited budget and the resulting craft was quite good for the money spent.

Charlie Gao studied political and computer science at Grinnell College and is a frequent commentator on defense and national-security issues.

Top gun is a complete fucking waste of time as no pilot will ever dogfight again.

That is what the U.S. thought going into the Vietnam War and look how that worked out for us.

In truth almost every air to air engagement since World War Two has been a close range "knife fighting" engagement.

Vietnam is over, as there is no way to approach either china or russia with a useless carrier. Since the foe can not be approached there is no way to even use a jet

So were there hypersonic missiles or gps in Vietnam?

The past is over

Who told you that? The Carrier has more range not than it ever has before. With the addition of the F-35B and Cs, it's missiles now have many times the range and now go over the horizon. And those so called Hyper Sonic Extreme Ranged Missiles don't friggin work for either Russia or China. Too many variables to get right where any variable that fails means the whole missile goes dumb.

I have followed scenerios on what it takes to kill a US Carrier Group. Believe it or not, nothing that either Russia nor China has can do that job. In fact, only the US has that capability and would have to take the old Iowa Class Battleships out of Mothballs and make a Super BB Battle Group. Sorry, but Stealth won't work, Hypersonic weapons won't work and even nuclear will fail. But a Death Star would work. The other types that would defeat a modern Carrier Group all have been sunk during WWII because they were used by the Japanese, Germans and Italians. Remember, you are going to have to be shooting where they will be, not where they are at because by the time your weapons transit, you are at least 47 miles off target.

The carrier has no range against russia or china as if one were ever used it would be sunk before the jets could return. That said carriers can still attack camels as they have been

You are just trolling now, Xi.

 

[Dusty]

Not today. The F-5 beat out the F-16 for the agressors squadron for the Navies Top Gun. Starting sometime this year, the F-5 assumes those roles. These are F-5Es and Fs that were made in the 60s. And coming from the Air Force that also still uses them, they operate lower than any other jet in operations. The AF uses them to keep their Bomber and Tanker Pilots concurrent in flying hours to qualify for their flight pay when money gets tight. Plus, the Agressor Squadron for the AF uses the F-5 because it's about the same size as the Mig-21 with similar flight capabilities unless the F-5 is upgraded.

Then there is Brazil. And you thought that Iran was the only one flying them. They are all over the globe in many other Air Forces.

How the F-5E “Tiger” Fighter Jet Keeps Getting Better (Despite Getting Older)

January 13, 2019 Topic: Security Region: Latin America Blog Brand: The Buzz Tags: BrazilF-5AWACSFrench MirageArms Sales

How the F-5E “Tiger” Fighter Jet Keeps Getting Better (Despite Getting Older)


Brazil has some big plans for this old fighter plane.


by Charlie Gao

The F-5E “Tiger” is one of U.S. aerospace industry’s largest export successes. Designed as a budget lightweight fighter, the F-5E is still operated by many nations around the world despite the availability of more modern fighters.

Its continued service is enabled by miniaturization of electronics, which allows for more powerful radars and more systems to be integrated into the same spaces as the original system. This approach is exemplified by the F-5EM operated by Brazil, one of the most advanced variants of the F-5E flying today.


Brazil first acquired F-5Es in 1974 after comparing it to rival NATO light fighters like the Harrier, Jaguar, Fiat G.91 and A-4 Skyhawk. Forty-two units were purchased originally, followed by twenty-six more in the 1980s.

These aircraft served in without much modification until CRUZEX I aerial exercise in 2002. The exercise simulated conflict between the Brazilian Air Force (FAB) and a French Armee de l’Air force equipped with Mirage 2000s with E-3 Sentry AWACS support. The results were abysmal , with France expected to take air superiority in a real conflict despite some good simulated kills by FAB Mirage IIIs.

This sparked a significant push to modernize the FAB’s capability to defend Brazil’s airspace. Modernization of the Mirage III was explored but deemed to be cost ineffective. The F-5E showed much more promise.

In the 1990s, Chile, facing a similar need to modernize, created their own variant, the Tiger III Plus with assistance from Israel Aircraft Industries . A similar program with newer technology could be done with the FAB’s F-5Es.

The program began in the 2000s when a contract was awarded to the Brazilian firm Embraer to modernize forty-six F-5Es with European and Israeli technology. The key aspect of the modernization was to “extend” the legs of the F-5E from being a short-range “point defense” fighter to something that could cover more ground over Brazil’s rather large borders.

To this end, the radar was upgraded to the SELEX Grifo-F, which involved lengthening the nose cone of the aircraft to account for the larger radar antenna. But while the new radar was better, the F-5EM was designed with a secure data link to connect to FAB E-99 AWACS aircraft and ground radars, which were envisioned to vector the F-5s onto a target.

The role of the data link in FAB doctrine is significant. In addition to the dominance displayed by the French Mirages working with E-3s during CRUZEX, the FAB always favored vectoring their fighters from more powerful radars due to poor experience with the original F-5E radar. During a night intercept of a British Vulcan bomber in 1982, the F-5E’s onboard radar was unable to effectively search for the massive aircraft, the fighters were reliant on ground radar.

To take advantage of the additional range given by the data link and radar systems, the Israeli Derby active-radar medium-range air-to-air missile was integrated into the F-5EM. While lighter and shorter ranged than heavier missiles like the AMRAAM and R-27, the missile gave the FAB much-needed beyond-visual-range capability in air-to-air combat, the third nation after Chile and Venezuela to gain such capability.

Many other systems were added or upgraded on the F-5EM. In addition to the Derby, Israeli Python III short-range missiles were integrated. The Israeli DASH helmet mounted display was installed in the cockpit to cue those missiles, making the F-5EM a formidable close range fighter.

A radar-warning receiver, onboard oxygen generation system, hands-on throttle and stick, and INS/GPS navigation are all included. The addition of all these systems came at a cost though. The starboard M39A2 20mm cannon was removed to make space for electronics in the jet.

Finally to address the F-5E’s meager internal fuel capacity, provision for air-to-air refueling was added.

The F-5E modernization program continued through the 2000s and 2010s, with the final jet being delivered in 2013. Eleven additional F-5Es were acquired from the Jordanian Air Force in 2009 to increase the number of the type in FAB service.

Brazilian experts stress that the FAB’s capability gap with neighboring air forces was only narrowed by the upgrade and that the F-5EM still remains an outclassed fighter in modern air combat due to its shortcomings and old-school design. Regardless, it was the best the FAB could do on a limited budget and the resulting craft was quite good for the money spent.

Charlie Gao studied political and computer science at Grinnell College and is a frequent commentator on defense and national-security issues.

Top gun is a complete fucking waste of time as no pilot will ever dogfight again.

That is what the U.S. thought going into the Vietnam War and look how that worked out for us.

In truth almost every air to air engagement since World War Two has been a close range "knife fighting" engagement.

Vietnam is over, as there is no way to approach either china or russia with a useless carrier. Since the foe can not be approached there is no way to even use a jet

So were there hypersonic missiles or gps in Vietnam?

The past is over

Who told you that? The Carrier has more range not than it ever has before. With the addition of the F-35B and Cs, it's missiles now have many times the range and now go over the horizon. And those so called Hyper Sonic Extreme Ranged Missiles don't friggin work for either Russia or China. Too many variables to get right where any variable that fails means the whole missile goes dumb.

I have followed scenerios on what it takes to kill a US Carrier Group. Believe it or not, nothing that either Russia nor China has can do that job. In fact, only the US has that capability and would have to take the old Iowa Class Battleships out of Mothballs and make a Super BB Battle Group. Sorry, but Stealth won't work, Hypersonic weapons won't work and even nuclear will fail. But a Death Star would work. The other types that would defeat a modern Carrier Group all have been sunk during WWII because they were used by the Japanese, Germans and Italians. Remember, you are going to have to be shooting where they will be, not where they are at because by the time your weapons transit, you are at least 47 miles off target.

The carrier has no range against russia or china as if one were ever used it would be sunk before the jets could return. That said carriers can still attack camels as they have been

You are just trolling now, Xi.

So you have no logical answer.

The carrier has no range against russia or china as if one were ever used it would be sunk before the jets could return. That said carriers can still attack camels as they have been

 

[Dayton3]

Not today. The F-5 beat out the F-16 for the agressors squadron for the Navies Top Gun. Starting sometime this year, the F-5 assumes those roles. These are F-5Es and Fs that were made in the 60s. And coming from the Air Force that also still uses them, they operate lower than any other jet in operations. The AF uses them to keep their Bomber and Tanker Pilots concurrent in flying hours to qualify for their flight pay when money gets tight. Plus, the Agressor Squadron for the AF uses the F-5 because it's about the same size as the Mig-21 with similar flight capabilities unless the F-5 is upgraded.

Then there is Brazil. And you thought that Iran was the only one flying them. They are all over the globe in many other Air Forces.

How the F-5E “Tiger” Fighter Jet Keeps Getting Better (Despite Getting Older)

January 13, 2019 Topic: Security Region: Latin America Blog Brand: The Buzz Tags: BrazilF-5AWACSFrench MirageArms Sales

How the F-5E “Tiger” Fighter Jet Keeps Getting Better (Despite Getting Older)


Brazil has some big plans for this old fighter plane.


by Charlie Gao

The F-5E “Tiger” is one of U.S. aerospace industry’s largest export successes. Designed as a budget lightweight fighter, the F-5E is still operated by many nations around the world despite the availability of more modern fighters.

Its continued service is enabled by miniaturization of electronics, which allows for more powerful radars and more systems to be integrated into the same spaces as the original system. This approach is exemplified by the F-5EM operated by Brazil, one of the most advanced variants of the F-5E flying today.


Brazil first acquired F-5Es in 1974 after comparing it to rival NATO light fighters like the Harrier, Jaguar, Fiat G.91 and A-4 Skyhawk. Forty-two units were purchased originally, followed by twenty-six more in the 1980s.

These aircraft served in without much modification until CRUZEX I aerial exercise in 2002. The exercise simulated conflict between the Brazilian Air Force (FAB) and a French Armee de l’Air force equipped with Mirage 2000s with E-3 Sentry AWACS support. The results were abysmal , with France expected to take air superiority in a real conflict despite some good simulated kills by FAB Mirage IIIs.

This sparked a significant push to modernize the FAB’s capability to defend Brazil’s airspace. Modernization of the Mirage III was explored but deemed to be cost ineffective. The F-5E showed much more promise.

In the 1990s, Chile, facing a similar need to modernize, created their own variant, the Tiger III Plus with assistance from Israel Aircraft Industries . A similar program with newer technology could be done with the FAB’s F-5Es.

The program began in the 2000s when a contract was awarded to the Brazilian firm Embraer to modernize forty-six F-5Es with European and Israeli technology. The key aspect of the modernization was to “extend” the legs of the F-5E from being a short-range “point defense” fighter to something that could cover more ground over Brazil’s rather large borders.

To this end, the radar was upgraded to the SELEX Grifo-F, which involved lengthening the nose cone of the aircraft to account for the larger radar antenna. But while the new radar was better, the F-5EM was designed with a secure data link to connect to FAB E-99 AWACS aircraft and ground radars, which were envisioned to vector the F-5s onto a target.

The role of the data link in FAB doctrine is significant. In addition to the dominance displayed by the French Mirages working with E-3s during CRUZEX, the FAB always favored vectoring their fighters from more powerful radars due to poor experience with the original F-5E radar. During a night intercept of a British Vulcan bomber in 1982, the F-5E’s onboard radar was unable to effectively search for the massive aircraft, the fighters were reliant on ground radar.

To take advantage of the additional range given by the data link and radar systems, the Israeli Derby active-radar medium-range air-to-air missile was integrated into the F-5EM. While lighter and shorter ranged than heavier missiles like the AMRAAM and R-27, the missile gave the FAB much-needed beyond-visual-range capability in air-to-air combat, the third nation after Chile and Venezuela to gain such capability.

Many other systems were added or upgraded on the F-5EM. In addition to the Derby, Israeli Python III short-range missiles were integrated. The Israeli DASH helmet mounted display was installed in the cockpit to cue those missiles, making the F-5EM a formidable close range fighter.

A radar-warning receiver, onboard oxygen generation system, hands-on throttle and stick, and INS/GPS navigation are all included. The addition of all these systems came at a cost though. The starboard M39A2 20mm cannon was removed to make space for electronics in the jet.

Finally to address the F-5E’s meager internal fuel capacity, provision for air-to-air refueling was added.

The F-5E modernization program continued through the 2000s and 2010s, with the final jet being delivered in 2013. Eleven additional F-5Es were acquired from the Jordanian Air Force in 2009 to increase the number of the type in FAB service.

Brazilian experts stress that the FAB’s capability gap with neighboring air forces was only narrowed by the upgrade and that the F-5EM still remains an outclassed fighter in modern air combat due to its shortcomings and old-school design. Regardless, it was the best the FAB could do on a limited budget and the resulting craft was quite good for the money spent.

Charlie Gao studied political and computer science at Grinnell College and is a frequent commentator on defense and national-security issues.

Top gun is a complete fucking waste of time as no pilot will ever dogfight again.

That is what the U.S. thought going into the Vietnam War and look how that worked out for us.

In truth almost every air to air engagement since World War Two has been a close range "knife fighting" engagement.

Vietnam is over, as there is no way to approach either china or russia with a useless carrier. Since the foe can not be approached there is no way to even use a jet
So were there hypersonic missiles or gps in Vietnam?

The past is over

The U.S. Navy has proven it can approach Russian territory without its carriers being detected by either aircraft or satellites.

 

[westwall]

Top gun is a waste of time as are the existence of aircraft carriers that can never approach either china or russia and survive.

How boringly predictable. You ignore my reference, and I challenge you to provide your own.

You then simply repeat yourself. How predictable.

It's a troll. Same mindless drivel over and over. Morons, like him, have been predicting the end of piloted aircraft since the 1950's.

In the UK those idiots took over the Air Ministry and destroyed English aviation.

 

[Dusty]

Top gun is a waste of time as are the existence of aircraft carriers that can never approach either china or russia and survive.

How boringly predictable. You ignore my reference, and I challenge you to provide your own.

You then simply repeat yourself. How predictable.

It's a troll. Same mindless drivel over and over. Morons, like him, have been predicting the end of piloted aircraft since the 1950's.

In the UK those idiots took over the Air Ministry and destroyed English aviation.

Russia has no active carriers. As they see no need for a ship that can not be defended, America has 11 carriers that do nothing but attack camels

 

[Mushroom]

Top gun is a waste of time as are the existence of aircraft carriers that can never approach either china or russia and survive.

How boringly predictable. You ignore my reference, and I challenge you to provide your own.

You then simply repeat yourself. How predictable.

It's a troll. Same mindless drivel over and over. Morons, like him, have been predicting the end of piloted aircraft since the 1950's.

In the UK those idiots took over the Air Ministry and destroyed English aviation.

And not only that, he literally just repeats himself over and over again and insults anybody that does not agree.

Why is already on block, I have no use on wasting time on such children.