RadiomanATL
Senior Member
And yet you can't seem to point it out. At all. Liar. You lose, again.
Wikileak'd video shows eager-to-kill troops firing on Reuters reporters and children
- Thread starter eots
- Start date
And yet you can't seem to point it out. At all. Liar. You lose, again.
germanguy
VIP Member
Perhaps I have not made myself clear:
These were not police helicopters, circling a neighborhood. These are gunships over a hostile area in a war. I do not necessarily expect the pilots to be overly sensitive or reluctant in using firepower. This is not their training and a 20 mm gun is not necessarily a sniper rifle.
That is how it is:
Armed soldiers are something different than policemen. Different training, different approach to a problem.
A police unit would have called reinforcements, perhaps a SWAT team, put up roadblocks etc.
A military unit would strike as hard as necessary to - err - solve the problem.
I would rather say, that the problem might be, that we see US military in a general dilemma in Iraq:
The war in Iraq is no classic war, it seems to me more a struggle to implement a kind of order. This is more a police task, than a task for an army.
If you use any kind of heavier weapon for this kind of job, things get messy.
This is one of the reasons, why the Brits in Northern Ireland never used something heavier than an armoured troop carrier. And they had a very competent police force in place, well-connected with the locals. The Army was there rather to assist. Totally different situation than in Iraq, but you still get the idea about the difference.
What I wholehearted concede is, that this video is a propaganda nightmare.
I see from the reaction from the US, that it is different from i.e. Germany.
Here most people shrugged and saw a proof for what they expected. If this is a justified and correct reaction we can debate.
So still, if you back your troops, you see what you want, if you are critical, you do the same.
My personal view is, that the whole war was and is a total mess from the beginning on till now. Nobody in the Bush administration had an effing clue what to do after the military victory. And now everybody has to cope with a self-created chaos.
If these pilots acted overly brutal or not is not the question. Even if they messed up, what we have seen in this video is the result of a certain policy and therefore a symptom, not the problem itself.
Regards
ze germanguy
These were not police helicopters, circling a neighborhood. These are gunships over a hostile area in a war. I do not necessarily expect the pilots to be overly sensitive or reluctant in using firepower. This is not their training and a 20 mm gun is not necessarily a sniper rifle.
That is how it is:
Armed soldiers are something different than policemen. Different training, different approach to a problem.
A police unit would have called reinforcements, perhaps a SWAT team, put up roadblocks etc.
A military unit would strike as hard as necessary to - err - solve the problem.
I would rather say, that the problem might be, that we see US military in a general dilemma in Iraq:
The war in Iraq is no classic war, it seems to me more a struggle to implement a kind of order. This is more a police task, than a task for an army.
If you use any kind of heavier weapon for this kind of job, things get messy.
This is one of the reasons, why the Brits in Northern Ireland never used something heavier than an armoured troop carrier. And they had a very competent police force in place, well-connected with the locals. The Army was there rather to assist. Totally different situation than in Iraq, but you still get the idea about the difference.
What I wholehearted concede is, that this video is a propaganda nightmare.
I see from the reaction from the US, that it is different from i.e. Germany.
Here most people shrugged and saw a proof for what they expected. If this is a justified and correct reaction we can debate.
So still, if you back your troops, you see what you want, if you are critical, you do the same.
My personal view is, that the whole war was and is a total mess from the beginning on till now. Nobody in the Bush administration had an effing clue what to do after the military victory. And now everybody has to cope with a self-created chaos.
If these pilots acted overly brutal or not is not the question. Even if they messed up, what we have seen in this video is the result of a certain policy and therefore a symptom, not the problem itself.
Regards
ze germanguy
CurveLight
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You proved it in your first response you dumfuk. It's sad you are too stoopid to even realize you did it. Lol......
CurveLight
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(8) Multi-National Corps-Iraq ROE card (Unclassified) (30 May 2007) [hereinafter MNC-I ROE card] ("2. Escalation of Force (EOF). If time and circumstances permit, use EOF to determine whether hostile act/intent exists.")
Http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m6052/is_2008_April/ai_n27912216/
Can anyone explain why that could not have been used by these pilots?
Http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m6052/is_2008_April/ai_n27912216/
Can anyone explain why that could not have been used by these pilots?
SFC Ollie
Still Marching
The pilots made the request to fire because they saw the threat only 100 meters from the infantry unit they were in support of. They identified offensive weapons (which have been confirmed by ground forces) and were given permission to engage.
They did everything by the book. Just because you are a REMF who has never seen an AK or a RPG and you refuse to believe the 15-6; is no reason to demonize these fine pilots.
PatekPhilippe
Senior Member
What part of this, as stated in plain english, are you having trouble understanding? Notice how CurveLight's weapons argument has failed so now she attempts an ROE argument.....
FAIL!
SFC Ollie
Still Marching
She has never taken such a beating on any thread. She just doesn't understand when to surrender.
CurveLight
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Leave it to a fat broken down mailroom boy to try and call someone else a REMF. Take your pathetic whiny punk ass back to your rubber stamp glory days you pure ******* ****. You ignored the EOF because the closest thing to honesty you have ever been near is a broken clock. The best thing you looked forward in retirement was not getting intimidated by E-1 females anymore. Don't try to **** with me or I'll put you down on a wet pillow again then you'll cry like a little **** about why you had to put me on ignore again....
PatekPhilippe
Senior Member
CurveLight
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You're way too stoopid to even try and keep up....my "no weapons" argument has not failed. I'm showing even if you are correct it does not justify what the pilots did. This is also not the first time I've brought up the ROE.
SFC Ollie
Still Marching
Shit the **** up little one. A partial list of the Units i was assigned to over the years is in my profile. Anyone with any military knowledge can figure out I wasn't sitting in a mail room. And you have done nothing this past 2 weeks that I have seen except get owned by about everyone you have disagreed with. I believe it to be rather funny. Now grow a pair and admit you are totally ******* wrong. Or as i said shut the **** up.
PatekPhilippe
Senior Member
Oh yes it did...you even admitted as much when you said that there were weapons present.
RadiomanATL
Senior Member
CurveLight
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You're the dumfuk that claimed we invaded iraq on the genuine threat of wmd because the US had nothing to gain otherwise........so don't mind if I take your observation summaries with a mountain of salt.
Yes we all know what's in your profile because you manage to remind everyone at least five times on any thread you post in. You're so fuxxing sad you do not realize your bullhorn tactics about your military time on the net is the manifestation of the insecurities from your end of life despair because y
ou've never done anything in your life that couldn't be accomplished with a malibu barbie thimble sized set of balls.
SFC Ollie
Still Marching
Boring
Is that all you've got?
Facts are a real ***** to you aren't they. Fact is that the 15-6 has proved you are totally wrong and you can't handle it. Now shut the **** up little girl.
CurveLight
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Geauxforfaux already tried that bullshit......
CurveLight
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Hey! Glad to see you got some tutoring done!
Fact is you are ignoring the video and focusing on the 15-6 because you carefully choose your Nationalistic avenues. The video shows there was no immediate threat and shows no hostile intent. But you go on thinking American bullets always only kill the bad and if innocents get killed...so what? Your kind will give the best gift to America when you have been antiquated.
geauxtohell
Choose your weapon.
God you are a shit for brains. Let's just ignore the whole irrefutable fact that, per two separate Army investigations, the ROE was not violated (Yeah, the senior commander, and not some bent dick disgrace like yourself, is the final word on that) and examine your claims.
"If time and circumstances permit".
The pilots were responding to a unit's request for CAS after they had been in contact (which you dispute, but which every other source, to include the original Reuters stories concurs with). The pilots identified an armed ground unit within small arms fire distance of the American forces. The pilots perceived the force to be hostile, this was escalated when the pointed a canister at the American forces, which the pilots perceived to be an RPG (thought I suspect it was a camera lens). The pilots had reason to believe this was a hostile force due to the fact that they were in close proximity to an engagement and were armed (which you deny, but which everyone else can clearly see). The audio by the pilots clearly supports this.
So how much more time should the pilots have given these guys? Until they zapped American forces with an RPG? Would that make you happy? Maybe or maybe that wouldn't have happened here, but creating that precedent (which you erroneously believe is or should be our ROE) would, in the long run, get more soldiers killed.
So guess what, jackass? It was the estimation of the pilots that time did not permit. The commander, and now the SECDEF has concurred. Looks like you are SOL.
BTW, you also never addressed "proportionality" also covered under the EOF. If the pilots had opened up with hellfire missiles, that would be a violation of the EOF. They initiated with the least casualty producing weapon. They did everything right, you just want to hang them out to dry now with the benefit of hindsight.
geauxtohell
Choose your weapon.
The troops don't have to be under ******* fire for CAS to engage you worthless waste of carbon. I don't know how many more times you have to be told that.
You don't understand the ROE, let alone set it.
Thank God. You would be a ******* flaming disaster in any sort of tactical role.
SFC Ollie
Still Marching
Wrong answer, I saw the weapons in the video, and I read that the ground units had been taking fire that day. You want to forget or dismiss the hard cold facts. I'm sorry every time some innocent gets hurt. But I will not fault these pilots for doing their job and doing it correctly. And it's my kind that, thank God, will keep America free.
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