Why Perry Can't Win

[Unkotare]

[

You Mormons were the ones who tried to establish your own theocracy here....

More playground stupidity, bigot? When did I ever say I was a Mormon? What I'm saying is that you are a filthy, lying, ignorant bigot who doesn't understand or deserve to live in the US.

France is thataway...be sure and forget to write.

 

[JoeB131]

[

You Mormons were the ones who tried to establish your own theocracy here....

More playground stupidity, bigot? When did I ever say I was a Mormon? What I'm saying is that you are a filthy, lying, ignorant bigot who doesn't understand or deserve to live in the US.

Only Mormons scream "Bigot" when someone outs the craziness of their religion.

Never heard anyone but the Mormons do that... it's like a tell.

There's about a half dozen tells where I can out the Mormons in these debates...

 

[JoeB131]

[


Blah, blah, blah.

Frankly, they're a bunch of dead white guys, and I don't give a crap what they thought or what their reasoning was. They didn't trust the people. The Rich never do. We have a constitution that was constucted by rich guys, which is why it is so flawed.

Bush stole the election. .

Repetition of lies, ignorant bullshit, and phoney class warfare by this democrat shill. He's just going to keep repeating the same nonsense over and over like Spam of Stupidity.

Too much truth for you?

Sorry, any objective study of history bears out my point of view.

The guys who said that "All Men are Created Equal" but still wrote a constitution that allowed slavery are not be be treated with any reverence.

 

[The Rabbi]

You win the most votes, you win the election.

Anything else is legal trickery.

So Bush's (S)election is to democracy what O.J.'s Trial was to criminal Justice...

Just so you get it in the proper perspective.

He did win the most votes--the votes of electors in the Electoral College. That's all that counts.
Do you think that somehow the constitution is unimportant here?

No, I'm sure that it was technically correct constitutionally...

And so was the Dred Scott Decision.

So was the decision to send 110,000 Japanese Americans to concentration Camps. (Koramatsu v. Unisted States).

So was Roe v. Wade.

But saying that a gross injustice was legally or constutionally correct doesn't make it right.

Conservatives rightly have complained about Judicial Activism, but Gore v. Bush was the worst kind of judicial activism.

There was no gross injustice anywhere but in your mind.
Bush won Florida. Every study shows that. It is not unprecedented for the winner not to get the majority of popular votes. That's how the system works. Don't like it? Move elsewhere.

 

[Unkotare]

[

You Mormons were the ones who tried to establish your own theocracy here....

More playground stupidity, bigot? When did I ever say I was a Mormon? What I'm saying is that you are a filthy, lying, ignorant bigot who doesn't understand or deserve to live in the US.

Only Mormons scream "Bigot" when someone outs the craziness of their religion.

Never heard anyone but the Mormons do that... it's like a tell.

There's about a half dozen tells where I can out the Mormons in these debates...

You are hopelessly stupid. You really are. One need not be of any particular group to be opposed to mindless, idiotic bigotry such as yours. Your "tell" doesn't work. How do you even manage to operate a computer with such drastically limited mental capacity?

 

[Unkotare]

[

Too much truth for you? .

No, 0 is not too much. Thanks for asking.

 

[Meister]

The Founding Fathers were a bunch of slave owners who didn't want to pay their taxes.

Quit idolizing these clowns.

They put in this awful system because they were a bunch of rich white guys who didn't trust democracy any more than the King they had just thrown out. It was an awful system, otherwise we wouldn't need ten amendments related to elections/the presidency if they got it in one.

the 12, 15, 17, 19, 20, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26 were all needed to be added to the constitution to either expand the franchise more fairly or correct oversights on how officials were elected or chosen. So they didn't produce anything near a perfect document.

You could go ahead and just admit that you haven't a clue on why the US uses the electoral college. Google can be your friend, but please, quit embarrassing yourself...I'm feeling bad for you.

Blah, blah, blah.

Frankly, they're a bunch of dead white guys, and I don't give a crap what they thought or what their reasoning was. They didn't trust the people. The Rich never do. We have a constitution that was constucted by rich guys, which is why it is so flawed.

Bush stole the election. I voted for him, was kind of happy he won (until he fucked up the country), but the fact is, the election was stolen. What happened was shameful, the world laughs at us and history will just shake its head.

You are the one that is hopelessly stupid, and I laugh at your ignorance.
You have no idea why the electoral college was put in place, so you lash out. Totally, hopelessly, ignorant. tsk, tsk

 

[Zona]

You still don't get it, your still in the leftwing echo chamber. Bush stole no election, he was fairly elected. I understand that you didn't like the outcome, but please be honest. I don't think he was a good president, but he certainly wasn't the worst either. He was fiscally a liberal.

and he cherrypicked intel and sent us to a war based on a lie and killed thousands of american servicemembers. In my lifetime, he is the worst president.

Zona, every intel along with Clinton stated that Bin Laden needed to be dealt with. If Clinton hadn't dummied down our own intel, you may have had a case.
You have a right to your opinion with where Bush stands as president....and I have my right to my opinion.

PS. I would have never pulled the trigger on Iraq....that was a mistake, Zona.

What did Iraq have to do with 9/11? I will never get that one. WE get attacked and he retaliated by attacking a different country.

I agree with you, Iraq was a mistake and it killed a lot of American service members.

 

[Meister]

and he cherrypicked intel and sent us to a war based on a lie and killed thousands of american servicemembers. In my lifetime, he is the worst president.

Zona, every intel along with Clinton stated that Bin Laden needed to be dealt with. If Clinton hadn't dummied down our own intel, you may have had a case.
You have a right to your opinion with where Bush stands as president....and I have my right to my opinion.

PS. I would have never pulled the trigger on Iraq....that was a mistake, Zona.

What did Iraq have to do with 9/11? I will never get that one. WE get attacked and he retaliated by attacking a different country.

I agree with you, Iraq was a mistake and it killed a lot of American service members.

It must have been the oil.

 

[Missourian]

I found myself agreeing with Fake Jake in this thread.

Should I be concerned?

 

[JoeB131]

There was no gross injustice anywhere but in your mind.
Bush won Florida. Every study shows that. It is not unprecedented for the winner not to get the majority of popular votes. That's how the system works. Don't like it? Move elsewhere.

Horsecrap. There have been a bunch of studies that have proven that Gore really got more votes in Florida.

The Consortium

Gore won even if one doesn’t count the 15,000-25,000 votes that USA Today estimated Gore lost because of illegally designed “butterfly ballots,” or the hundreds of predominantly African-American voters who were falsely identified by the state as felons and turned away from the polls.

Gore won even if there’s no adjustment for George W. Bush’s windfall of about 290 votes from improperly counted military absentee ballots where lax standards were applied to Republican counties and strict standards to Democratic ones, a violation of fairness reported earlier by the Washington Post and the New York Times.

But wait, there's more...

The Consortium

It turned out that 1,871 of these disqualified ballots were clearly marked for Gore and 1,189 were clearly marked for George W. Bush, giving Gore that net gain of 682 votes.

For those who remember Bush's official victory margin of 537 votes, the math would seem simple. Subtract 537 from 682, giving Gore a narrow win by 145 votes.

Sorry, there have been extensive studies that would have shown that Gore would have won Florida, had an accurate and fair count been done. The Supreme Court prevented that.

 

[JoeB131]

[
You are the one that is hopelessly stupid, and I laugh at your ignorance.
You have no idea why the electoral college was put in place, so you lash out. Totally, hopelessly, ignorant. tsk, tsk

Guy, you haven't given a good reason yet why someone should be appointed by a court after losing the popular vote.

Because people who said blacks were 3/5th of a white man said so? Really? That's your whole reasoning here?

Any reason that might have been valid in 1787 really has no relevence in 2000. By all rights, Bush should have said, "The people have spoken" and that should have been the end of the matter. Instead, we had a situation that was worthy of a Chicago Ward backroom or a third world banana republic where the candidates brother tampered with the vote and a court ruled in his favor.

 

[JoeB131]

You are hopelessly stupid. You really are. One need not be of any particular group to be opposed to mindless, idiotic bigotry such as yours. Your "tell" doesn't work. How do you even manage to operate a computer with such drastically limited mental capacity?

Oh, please, guy... Had a debate on another board with some joker who claimed to be an evagelical who just didn't understand what people had against Mormons. Except he used all the Mormon code phrases... then he admitted that his whole family just converted to LDS.

You guys are kind of obvious, I guess, you soooo desperately want your nutty little cult to be recogonized as a legit religion.

 

[JoeB131]

["Mormon-boy"... How fucking 'playground' can you get? I take issue with your bigotry against Mormons and you therefore label me "Mormon-boy." That is classic infantile bullshit. You are exactly the same as those racist idiots who obsess over African Americans. Exactly the same. Take issue with their pathetic racism and it's "Oh, you must be black" or "You are sleeping with black people" in response. You are exactly the same as them. Take issue with some nasty anti-homosexual bigot and it's "Oh yeah, gay-boy?" That shit is not only childish, but it is the shit dim-witted, unimaginative children resort to. Hopelessly juvenile and utterly illogical. YOU are exactly the same. Exactly.

Moving on: Put away your straw man, because President Bush's performance is not what we were talking about. Did you think that was a clever attempt at shifting the focus because you cannot support your asinine "He stole it!" bullshit? Pathetic.

For the 10th time, no one believes you are a Republican, so go tell your DNC handlers to come up with another story for you.

Blacks don't chose to be black and gays don't chose to be gay. Mormons choose to have stupid, idiotic beliefs. Therefore, it is perfectly acceptable to judge them on those beliefs. Therefore, not bigotry.

I was brought up Catholic. But I don't think the Pope is infalliable. I don't think Jesus was made out of wafers. There's a whole lot of silly stuff there I rejected. And you know what, my relatives didn't shun me after I rejected it. Which would not have been the case if I grew up Mormon and rejected their silly beliefs. That's the difference between a religion and a cult.

That you can't see the clear link between Bush's illegitimacy and his poor performance is kind of your problem... His presidency was not seen as valid by half the country. Thus, he failed.

 

[JoeB131]

TRying to get this thread back on Track.

I actually think Perry is probably the strongest candidate the GOP could put up.

Romney has a bunch of problems. RINO. Mormonism. Invented ObamaCare. Flip-Flopper. Unethical business deals and all around a weird guy. If you don't think that the Obama Team has a thick file on this guy, ready to deploy, well, you're probably delusional.

Bachmann is just plain nuts. Palin is stupid. None of the others have much of a chance. The fact some people are still floundering around hoping Ryan or CHristie get in shows the weakness...

Perry's got the cred, in that he's been a successful governor. Can he win? Who knows. The GOP has a lovely habit of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, that's for certain.

 

[Meister]

Only the loosest standards could Gore have actually of won. The official would have had to guess the intent of the voter.
That's not going to happen in any election.



A check of Miami-Dade County's undervotes — ballots on which machines could not detect a vote for president — showed Al Gore would have picked up no more than 49 votes there, 140 votes too few to pass Bush, according to The Herald's Monday editions.
The Herald's analysis added in the 49 possible votes it found in Miami-Dade County to the 741 Broward and Palm Beach votes, for a total of 790 extra Gore votes — short of the 930 needed for victory at the time, before later court battles and recounts modified the deficit.

According to The Herald, the 10,644 Miami-Dade ballots it reviewed were physically handled by elections officials, and read by an accountant from BDO Seidman, LLP, and a Herald reporter.

The analysis concluded there were 1,555 ballots marked in a way that appeared to favor Gore, and 1,506 that may have favored Bush.

"There were many people who expected there was a bonanza of votes here for Al Gore, and it turns out there was not," Herald executive editor Martin Baron told The Associated Press.
Newspaper: Bush Would Have Won Fla. - ABC News

The study was unable to review the ballots in Broward and Volusia that were counted as legal votes during the manual recounts thus analysis included those figures that were obtained using very loose standards in its calculations. Since these recounts resulted in a sizable net gain for Gore (665 net Gore votes) they have no bearing on the assessment that Bush would likely have won the recounts requested by Gore and ordered by the Florida Supreme Court. They do however play a major role in the assessment that Gore could have won a recount of the entire state if overvotes were taken into account. Without these votes Gore would have lost a recount of the entire state even with all overvotes added in. Unless 495 or more of those votes were actual votes then Gore still would lose. Note these figures also do not take into account a dispute over 500 asbentee ballots that Bush requested to be added to the certified totals. If found to be legal votes that would put Gore totally out of reach regardless of any manual recount standard.
Florida election recount - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Meister]

[
You are the one that is hopelessly stupid, and I laugh at your ignorance.
You have no idea why the electoral college was put in place, so you lash out. Totally, hopelessly, ignorant. tsk, tsk

Guy, you haven't given a good reason yet why someone should be appointed by a court after losing the popular vote.

Because people who said blacks were 3/5th of a white man said so? Really? That's your whole reasoning here?

Any reason that might have been valid in 1787 really has no relevence in 2000. By all rights, Bush should have said, "The people have spoken" and that should have been the end of the matter. Instead, we had a situation that was worthy of a Chicago Ward backroom or a third world banana republic where the candidates brother tampered with the vote and a court ruled in his favor.

And you haven't shown that you even know what the electoral college is about. Keep attacking...it's what you liberals do when you have nothing else.
The electoral college IS more relevent now than in 1787.....this really does prove your ignorance.

 

[JoeB131]

I think that if there was a big dimple on Gore's name, but it didn't punch through, that's a pretty good indication of "intent".

The thing is, Rabbi claimed that there was no study indicating Gore won, I proved that there were. We could argue around whether those studies were valid or not all day.

Unfortunately, given that we are talking about maybe a few hundred votes out of some 6 million cast, it's statistically IMPOSSIBLE to say with any certainty who won. By all rights, they should have either split the electors down the middle (Gore wins) or no vote from Florida is counted and it gets kicked into the House under the rules of the 12th Amendment.

Here's the thing. THis finally got resolved because at a certain point, Gore stopped fighting it. He could have insisted that the Senate (which had a democratic majority along with his vote at the time) not validate the EC's results. The constitution, which you claim is SOOOOOOOO Holy allows for that. The EC's vote doesn't count until Congress accepts it.

So to Recap- Gore won the Popular Vote
No one really will ever know who won Florida as a state, because a full count wasn't done.
The Supreme Court voted on purely partisan lines 5-4 to grant it to Bush.
The Senate could have blocked it, but didn't, because it would have created a constitutional crisis.

This by your reckoning is a well-functioning system for choosing a president? Really?

If Obama loses the popular vote in 2012, but win the electoral vote, will you be out their insisting on following the will of the Dead Slaveholders? Somehow, I don't think so.

This should NOT be a conservative vs. liberal issue. As a matter of principle, the guy who gets the most votes win. That's the whole point of voting. Otherwise, why not have a parlimentary system like the Brits where a PM is picked?

I'm not sure why you have so much emotionally invested in this... even you've admitted Bush was an awful president.

 

[JoeB131]

And you haven't shown that you even know what the electoral college is about. Keep attacking...it's what you liberals do when you have nothing else.
The electoral college IS more relevent now than in 1787.....this really does prove your ignorance.

Guy, I frankly DON'T CARE what their reasoning was.

I'm reasonably sure it was as retarded as the same thought process that lead Thomas Jefferson to say "All Men are Created Equal" and then go home and rape his slave because she was his property.

You have yet to tell me why the will of the people should be openly ignored by judges...

You know, you so-called "conservatives" (most of you are nothing of the sort) rant all day when the courts ignore the will of the people on subjects like Evolution, Abortion, gay marriage, school prayer on some dubious interpretations of the constitution.

But they split 5-4 on how to resolve an election that goes completely off the rails, and man, you guys want to stick to the letter of the law!

 

[Meister]

I think that if there was a big dimple on Gore's name, but it didn't punch through, that's a pretty good indication of "intent".

The thing is, Rabbi claimed that there was no study indicating Gore won, I proved that there were. We could argue around whether those studies were valid or not all day.

Unfortunately, given that we are talking about maybe a few hundred votes out of some 6 million cast, it's statistically IMPOSSIBLE to say with any certainty who won. By all rights, they should have either split the electors down the middle (Gore wins) or no vote from Florida is counted and it gets kicked into the House under the rules of the 12th Amendment.

Here's the thing. THis finally got resolved because at a certain point, Gore stopped fighting it. He could have insisted that the Senate (which had a democratic majority along with his vote at the time) not validate the EC's results. The constitution, which you claim is SOOOOOOOO Holy allows for that. The EC's vote doesn't count until Congress accepts it.

So to Recap- Gore won the Popular Vote
No one really will ever know who won Florida as a state, because a full count wasn't done.
The Supreme Court voted on purely partisan lines 5-4 to grant it to Bush.
The Senate could have blocked it, but didn't, because it would have created a constitutional crisis.

This by your reckoning is a well-functioning system for choosing a president? Really?

If Obama loses the popular vote in 2012, but win the electoral vote, will you be out their insisting on following the will of the Dead Slaveholders? Somehow, I don't think so.
This should NOT be a conservative vs. liberal issue. As a matter of principle, the guy who gets the most votes win. That's the whole point of voting. Otherwise, why not have a parlimentary system like the Brits where a PM is picked?

I'm not sure why you have so much emotionally invested in this... even you've admitted Bush was an awful president.

Dude....you are making assumptions....when you do that YOU fail.

Let me splain it in as simple terms to where you may even be able to understand it....(I'm only guessing at that)

A candidate would only have to get the votes in the 5 most populated states and be able to win the presidency with the popular vote. I know that would be just fine with you, but that's not the way it works. The candidates would concentrate on those 5 states needs and not the needs of the other 45 states plus DC. The needs of Montana are certainly different than the needs of Pa.
With the electoral college all the states plus Washington DC are assured of being represented in the general election. Not so with the popular vote.

I know this isn't even going to register with you, but I really could give a rats ass.
The electoral college is every bit as important today as it was 200+ years ago.