why not just sit on your butt and pray?

[Newby]

how do you explain the fact that you apparently hit the "quote" button and got text that wasn't in the post you quoted?......text that others who hit the "quote" button before you didn't get.....text that can be found no where else on the thread......

You don't think she'll actually admit to doing it do you?? She'll just try to marginilize you by calling you names, making accusations, deflecting, etc... it's all she does, all she knows how to do. See her post answering your question, she's a joke..

Why is everyone so sure someone did it. Oh ye of little faith.

You're implying that God miraculously helped Hollie out by adding text to Peach's post that Peach herself never placed there, so that it would help Hollie's basing of Him and those who have faith in Him? Okay... whatever floats your boat...

 

[RandomVariable]

You don't think she'll actually admit to doing it do you?? She'll just try to marginilize you by calling you names, making accusations, deflecting, etc... it's all she does, all she knows how to do. See her post answering your question, she's a joke..

Why is everyone so sure someone did it. Oh ye of little faith.

You're implying that God miraculously helped Hollie out by adding text to Peach's post that Peach herself never placed there, so that it would help Hollie's basing of Him and those who have faith in Him? Okay... whatever floats your boat...

And if He did? Whose right?

 

[September]

She'll just try to marginilize you by calling you names, making accusations, deflecting, etc... it's all she does, all she knows how to do. See her post answering your question, she's a joke..

Wow that sounds exactly like what PoliticalChic does.

 

[Hollie]

You don't think she'll actually admit to doing it do you?? She'll just try to marginilize you by calling you names, making accusations, deflecting, etc... it's all she does, all she knows how to do. See her post answering your question, she's a joke..

Why is everyone so sure someone did it. Oh ye of little faith.

You're implying that God miraculously helped Hollie out by adding text to Peach's post that Peach herself never placed there, so that it would help Hollie's basing of Him and those who have faith in Him? Okay... whatever floats your boat...

There was no text added. Why don't you post the exact reference or just admit that you have clue what you're writing.

 

[Hollie]

Hollie, One aspect of your conversation with PostmodernProph that you should note. When PostmodernProph told about the prayer and the cured cancer he did not say, "Look. Here is a miracle God has performed." He gave the facts and was sure to include that there were multiple observers of the occurrence. When he noticed that the text in the posts were inconsistent with the time stamps he noticed it and said it was odd not, "Look. Here is a miracle God performed." You denied that there was anything odd about the timing and the text of the posts. In this manner PostmodernProph is being more more scientific and you are being much more 'religious'. Sometimes it is not a question of believing as much as it is a fact of accepting the truth.

It's important to point out a couple of things. Firstly, and as noted earlier in the thread, the story of the cancer survivor is a one that floats around the religious community. As far as prayer curing cancer, that is totally unsupported.

I always wonder why the gods (via prayer),"perform miracles" like "miraculous cures" for cancer (which has a spontaneous remission rate anyway) but we never see anyone who loses a limb in a car accident stand up, reattach their limb, and heal instantaneously. This would demonstrate the ongoing prescense of something outside of Man's rational knowledge, and it would be hard to dismiss an ongoing pattern of such events. And, modern miracles won't prove ancient ones, but one could easily embrace a reverse empiricism and make the case that modern miracles go a long way towards showing evidence of some power that is wholly inexplicable.

Secondly, prayer has nothing to do with curing illness, as evidenced by our life span-- the farther back you go, the less medicine there was, the quicker people croaked. At Jesus' time, the life expectancy was about 40 years. Today it's 85. The difference? Rational medicine and science. So, since people died much earlier back in those days, again we can attribute that to people not praying hard enough for cures.

Here's a simple test for faith healing:

Find two people with radical appendicitis. Person A, apply the same steps as were applied before the mid 1800's (i.e., pray over them, light incense, tell them to “believe”, rattle bones, whatever). Person B -- perform an appendectomy using modern surgical techniques without any prayer. Who will survive, who will die -- consistently? Then ask yourself why is it that when using prayer (or hoping for miracles) they've always died, and not until man learned the science of medicine did people start to survive (i.e., only until man learned how to remedy appendicitis, did "god suddenly have the power to perform this miracle")? It's pretty self-evident.

 

[peach174]

You don't think she'll actually admit to doing it do you?? She'll just try to marginilize you by calling you names, making accusations, deflecting, etc... it's all she does, all she knows how to do. See her post answering your question, she's a joke..

Why is everyone so sure someone did it. Oh ye of little faith.

You're implying that God miraculously helped Hollie out by adding text to Peach's post that Peach herself never placed there, so that it would help Hollie's basing of Him and those who have faith in Him? Okay... whatever floats your boat...

I do find it very interesting that a non believer knows so much about creationist websites.
I forgot to put the link up but she knew exactly that it was Contender Ministries.
She added some of the rest of the site where it said something about 50,000 years and then tried to make it out that I believe the Earth is 50,000 year old.
I just typed in a question about the flaws of carbon dating and I got that site, that was explaining why it was flawed.
She tried to make me out to be one of the types of Christians that believe that the Earth is 6,000 years old.
Which I don't believe at all.
Nor do I believe it is 50,000 years.
I do believe that it is Billions of years old.
It had to be, before anything was able to have a sustainable life.

 

[Hollie]

Why is everyone so sure someone did it. Oh ye of little faith.

You're implying that God miraculously helped Hollie out by adding text to Peach's post that Peach herself never placed there, so that it would help Hollie's basing of Him and those who have faith in Him? Okay... whatever floats your boat...

I do find it very interesting that a non believer knows so much about creationist websites.
I forgot to put the link up but she knew exactly that it was Contender Ministries.
She added some of the rest of the site where it said something about 50,000 years and then tried to make it out that I believe the Earth is 50,000 year old.
I just typed in a question about the flaws of carbon dating and I got that site, that was explaining why it was flawed.
She tried to make me out to be one of the types of Christians that believe that the Earth is 6,000 years old.
Which I don't believe at all.
Nor do I believe it is 50,000 years.
I do believe that it is Billions of years old.
It had to be, before anything was able to have a sustainable life.

It's not really all that interesting. It's just that what you copied and pasted is boilerplate creationist drivel.

I'm surprised you're still making an issue of this when your post (#123), was simply a cut and paste (unattributed), from Contender Ministries.

THE PROBLEMS WITH CARBON-14 DATING

I really hoped not to make an issue of your unattributed cut and paste but the more excitable of the fundies have decided to spew their own ignorance by commenting on what they re clueless about.

 

[Hollie]

You don't think she'll actually admit to doing it do you?? She'll just try to marginilize you by calling you names, making accusations, deflecting, etc... it's all she does, all she knows how to do. See her post answering your question, she's a joke..

Why is everyone so sure someone did it. Oh ye of little faith.

You're implying that God miraculously helped Hollie out by adding text to Peach's post that Peach herself never placed there, so that it would help Hollie's basing of Him and those who have faith in Him? Okay... whatever floats your boat...

Jesus loves me yes he does.....

Join in on the harmonies.

 

[Hollie]

You don't think she'll actually admit to doing it do you?? She'll just try to marginilize you by calling you names, making accusations, deflecting, etc... it's all she does, all she knows how to do. See her post answering your question, she's a joke..

Why is everyone so sure someone did it. Oh ye of little faith.

You're implying that God miraculously helped Hollie out by adding text to Peach's post that Peach herself never placed there, so that it would help Hollie's basing of Him and those who have faith in Him? Okay... whatever floats your boat...

Scroll back to post #123.

Scroll down to paragraph #9

Read paragraph #9

Read paragraph #9 again.


Scroll to post #131

Read post #131


Nothing was added.

Yeah, I know, you feel like a fool for commenting on what you know nothing of.

 

[peach174]

You're implying that God miraculously helped Hollie out by adding text to Peach's post that Peach herself never placed there, so that it would help Hollie's basing of Him and those who have faith in Him? Okay... whatever floats your boat...

I do find it very interesting that a non believer knows so much about creationist websites.
I forgot to put the link up but she knew exactly that it was Contender Ministries.
She added some of the rest of the site where it said something about 50,000 years and then tried to make it out that I believe the Earth is 50,000 year old.
I just typed in a question about the flaws of carbon dating and I got that site, that was explaining why it was flawed.
She tried to make me out to be one of the types of Christians that believe that the Earth is 6,000 years old.
Which I don't believe at all.
Nor do I believe it is 50,000 years.
I do believe that it is Billions of years old.
It had to be, before anything was able to have a sustainable life.

It's not really all that interesting. It's just that what you copied and pasted is boilerplate creationist drivel.

I'm surprised you're still making an issue of this when your post (#123), was simply a cut and paste (unattributed), from Contender Ministries.

THE PROBLEMS WITH CARBON-14 DATING

I really hoped not to make an issue of your unattributed cut and paste but the more excitable of the fundies have decided to spew their own ignorance by commenting on what they re clueless about.

What issue?
If I had really have wanted to make it one, you would have known about it.

I admitted to my mistake of forgetting to put the link up my bad

 

[RandomVariable]

Hollie, One aspect of your conversation with PostmodernProph that you should note. When PostmodernProph told about the prayer and the cured cancer he did not say, "Look. Here is a miracle God has performed." He gave the facts and was sure to include that there were multiple observers of the occurrence. When he noticed that the text in the posts were inconsistent with the time stamps he noticed it and said it was odd not, "Look. Here is a miracle God performed." You denied that there was anything odd about the timing and the text of the posts. In this manner PostmodernProph is being more more scientific and you are being much more 'religious'. Sometimes it is not a question of believing as much as it is a fact of accepting the truth.

It's important to point out a couple of things. Firstly, and as noted earlier in the thread, the story of the cancer survivor is a one that floats around the religious community. As far as prayer curing cancer, that is totally unsupported.

I always wonder why the gods (via prayer),"perform miracles" like "miraculous cures" for cancer (which has a spontaneous remission rate anyway) but we never see anyone who loses a limb in a car accident stand up, reattach their limb, and heal instantaneously. This would demonstrate the ongoing prescense of something outside of Man's rational knowledge, and it would be hard to dismiss an ongoing pattern of such events. And, modern miracles won't prove ancient ones, but one could easily embrace a reverse empiricism and make the case that modern miracles go a long way towards showing evidence of some power that is wholly inexplicable.

Secondly, prayer has nothing to do with curing illness, as evidenced by our life span-- the farther back you go, the less medicine there was, the quicker people croaked. At Jesus' time, the life expectancy was about 40 years. Today it's 85. The difference? Rational medicine and science. So, since people died much earlier back in those days, again we can attribute that to people not praying hard enough for cures.

Here's a simple test for faith healing:

Find two people with radical appendicitis. Person A, apply the same steps as were applied before the mid 1800's (i.e., pray over them, light incense, tell them to “believe”, rattle bones, whatever). Person B -- perform an appendectomy using modern surgical techniques without any prayer. Who will survive, who will die -- consistently? Then ask yourself why is it that when using prayer (or hoping for miracles) they've always died, and not until man learned the science of medicine did people start to survive (i.e., only until man learned how to remedy appendicitis, did "god suddenly have the power to perform this miracle")? It's pretty self-evident.

Whether that woman died then, five minutes later, or five years later nothing would have been significantly different for her. As much as I am sure she appreciated it that miracle was not for her. It was for PostmodernProph. Him and all the others who were witnesses that day. It was a gift to them. He did not have to say anything to them but he did. While the miracle might not have made any real difference to the woman it made a real difference to those in the church. And as you are aware one of those people is PostmodernProph, although he probably did not need it. So if God were to grow a limb back who would that make a difference to? The 7 o'clock nightly news. They have enough amazing stories without yet another "miracle".

Now I don't know if God modified the posts here recently. Let's say He did as a way to examine this. Who would the miracle been for? Peach because it was her post? No. Was it for for Hollie? No. It was for, once again, PostmodernProph. Why was it not in PostmodernProph's post. Because if it was then obviously he put it there. When God changes water into wine it is not for the water's sake.

 

[Hollie]

I do find it very interesting that a non believer knows so much about creationist websites.
I forgot to put the link up but she knew exactly that it was Contender Ministries.
She added some of the rest of the site where it said something about 50,000 years and then tried to make it out that I believe the Earth is 50,000 year old.
I just typed in a question about the flaws of carbon dating and I got that site, that was explaining why it was flawed.
She tried to make me out to be one of the types of Christians that believe that the Earth is 6,000 years old.
Which I don't believe at all.
Nor do I believe it is 50,000 years.
I do believe that it is Billions of years old.
It had to be, before anything was able to have a sustainable life.

It's not really all that interesting. It's just that what you copied and pasted is boilerplate creationist drivel.

I'm surprised you're still making an issue of this when your post (#123), was simply a cut and paste (unattributed), from Contender Ministries.

THE PROBLEMS WITH CARBON-14 DATING

I really hoped not to make an issue of your unattributed cut and paste but the more excitable of the fundies have decided to spew their own ignorance by commenting on what they re clueless about.

What issue?
If I had really have wanted to make it one, you would have known about it.

I admitted to my mistake of forgetting to put the link up my bad

I was trying to do the good Christian thing by teaching the two peanut gallery members that hurling charges they can't defend is the inverse of the good Christian thing'y.

 

[RandomVariable]

Hollie, my apologies if I am asking you to repeat yourself here but if you don't mind saying, what is you religious/spiritual affiliation?

 

[Hollie]

Hollie, One aspect of your conversation with PostmodernProph that you should note. When PostmodernProph told about the prayer and the cured cancer he did not say, "Look. Here is a miracle God has performed." He gave the facts and was sure to include that there were multiple observers of the occurrence. When he noticed that the text in the posts were inconsistent with the time stamps he noticed it and said it was odd not, "Look. Here is a miracle God performed." You denied that there was anything odd about the timing and the text of the posts. In this manner PostmodernProph is being more more scientific and you are being much more 'religious'. Sometimes it is not a question of believing as much as it is a fact of accepting the truth.

It's important to point out a couple of things. Firstly, and as noted earlier in the thread, the story of the cancer survivor is a one that floats around the religious community. As far as prayer curing cancer, that is totally unsupported.

I always wonder why the gods (via prayer),"perform miracles" like "miraculous cures" for cancer (which has a spontaneous remission rate anyway) but we never see anyone who loses a limb in a car accident stand up, reattach their limb, and heal instantaneously. This would demonstrate the ongoing prescense of something outside of Man's rational knowledge, and it would be hard to dismiss an ongoing pattern of such events. And, modern miracles won't prove ancient ones, but one could easily embrace a reverse empiricism and make the case that modern miracles go a long way towards showing evidence of some power that is wholly inexplicable.

Secondly, prayer has nothing to do with curing illness, as evidenced by our life span-- the farther back you go, the less medicine there was, the quicker people croaked. At Jesus' time, the life expectancy was about 40 years. Today it's 85. The difference? Rational medicine and science. So, since people died much earlier back in those days, again we can attribute that to people not praying hard enough for cures.

Here's a simple test for faith healing:

Find two people with radical appendicitis. Person A, apply the same steps as were applied before the mid 1800's (i.e., pray over them, light incense, tell them to “believe”, rattle bones, whatever). Person B -- perform an appendectomy using modern surgical techniques without any prayer. Who will survive, who will die -- consistently? Then ask yourself why is it that when using prayer (or hoping for miracles) they've always died, and not until man learned the science of medicine did people start to survive (i.e., only until man learned how to remedy appendicitis, did "god suddenly have the power to perform this miracle")? It's pretty self-evident.

Whether that woman died then, five minutes later, or five years later nothing would have been significantly different for her. As much as I am sure she appreciated it that miracle was not for her. It was for PostmodernProph. Him and all the others who were witnesses that day. It was a gift to them. He did not have to say anything to them but he did. While the miracle might not have made any real difference to the woman it made a real difference to those in the church. And as you are aware one of those people is PostmodernProph, although he probably did not need it. So if God were to grow a limb back who would that make a difference to? The 7 o'clock nightly news. They have enough amazing stories without yet another "miracle".

Now I don't know if God modified the posts here recently. Let's say He did as a way to examine this. Who would the miracle been for? Peach because it was her post? No. Was it for for Hollie? No. It was for, once again, PostmodernProph. Why was it not in PostmodernProph's post. Because if it was then obviously he put it there. When God changes water into wine it is not for the water's sake.

How sad for all those other individuals and family members who didn't win the prayer lottery. I guess they just didn't pray hard enough, or maybe they just deserved to die.

"Hey - screw those other losers, god saved me"

 

[Hollie]

Hollie, my apologies if I am asking you to repeat yourself here but if you don't mind saying, what is you religious/spiritual affiliation?

No religion and no spiritual affiliation.

Strong agnostic.

My wonderful Dad, a Protestant, exposed me to religion early but never pushed belief.

 

[RandomVariable]

It's important to point out a couple of things. Firstly, and as noted earlier in the thread, the story of the cancer survivor is a one that floats around the religious community. As far as prayer curing cancer, that is totally unsupported.

I always wonder why the gods (via prayer),"perform miracles" like "miraculous cures" for cancer (which has a spontaneous remission rate anyway) but we never see anyone who loses a limb in a car accident stand up, reattach their limb, and heal instantaneously. This would demonstrate the ongoing prescense of something outside of Man's rational knowledge, and it would be hard to dismiss an ongoing pattern of such events. And, modern miracles won't prove ancient ones, but one could easily embrace a reverse empiricism and make the case that modern miracles go a long way towards showing evidence of some power that is wholly inexplicable.

Secondly, prayer has nothing to do with curing illness, as evidenced by our life span-- the farther back you go, the less medicine there was, the quicker people croaked. At Jesus' time, the life expectancy was about 40 years. Today it's 85. The difference? Rational medicine and science. So, since people died much earlier back in those days, again we can attribute that to people not praying hard enough for cures.

Here's a simple test for faith healing:

Find two people with radical appendicitis. Person A, apply the same steps as were applied before the mid 1800's (i.e., pray over them, light incense, tell them to “believe”, rattle bones, whatever). Person B -- perform an appendectomy using modern surgical techniques without any prayer. Who will survive, who will die -- consistently? Then ask yourself why is it that when using prayer (or hoping for miracles) they've always died, and not until man learned the science of medicine did people start to survive (i.e., only until man learned how to remedy appendicitis, did "god suddenly have the power to perform this miracle")? It's pretty self-evident.

Whether that woman died then, five minutes later, or five years later nothing would have been significantly different for her. As much as I am sure she appreciated it that miracle was not for her. It was for PostmodernProph. Him and all the others who were witnesses that day. It was a gift to them. He did not have to say anything to them but he did. While the miracle might not have made any real difference to the woman it made a real difference to those in the church. And as you are aware one of those people is PostmodernProph, although he probably did not need it. So if God were to grow a limb back who would that make a difference to? The 7 o'clock nightly news. They have enough amazing stories without yet another "miracle".

Now I don't know if God modified the posts here recently. Let's say He did as a way to examine this. Who would the miracle been for? Peach because it was her post? No. Was it for for Hollie? No. It was for, once again, PostmodernProph. Why was it not in PostmodernProph's post. Because if it was then obviously he put it there. When God changes water into wine it is not for the water's sake.

How sad for all those other individuals and family members who didn't win the prayer lottery. I guess they just didn't pray hard enough, or maybe they just deserved to die.

"Hey - screw those other losers, god saved me"

You scanned my reply. Read it. I do honestly try to keep them short and to the point.

 

[RandomVariable]

Hollie, my apologies if I am asking you to repeat yourself here but if you don't mind saying, what is you religious/spiritual affiliation?

No religion and no spiritual affiliation.

Strong agnostic.

My wonderful Dad, a Protestant, exposed me to religion early but never pushed belief.

Do you believe God can perform acts in this world? so to speak. Do you believe he does? Do you believe you have ever witnessed such an act?

 

[Hollie]

Whether that woman died then, five minutes later, or five years later nothing would have been significantly different for her. As much as I am sure she appreciated it that miracle was not for her. It was for PostmodernProph. Him and all the others who were witnesses that day. It was a gift to them. He did not have to say anything to them but he did. While the miracle might not have made any real difference to the woman it made a real difference to those in the church. And as you are aware one of those people is PostmodernProph, although he probably did not need it. So if God were to grow a limb back who would that make a difference to? The 7 o'clock nightly news. They have enough amazing stories without yet another "miracle".

Now I don't know if God modified the posts here recently. Let's say He did as a way to examine this. Who would the miracle been for? Peach because it was her post? No. Was it for for Hollie? No. It was for, once again, PostmodernProph. Why was it not in PostmodernProph's post. Because if it was then obviously he put it there. When God changes water into wine it is not for the water's sake.

How sad for all those other individuals and family members who didn't win the prayer lottery. I guess they just didn't pray hard enough, or maybe they just deserved to die.

"Hey - screw those other losers, god saved me"

You scanned my reply.

I did. Sorry. I was on a roll

Read it. I do honestly try to keep them short and to the point.

If you're going where I think you're going, you need to infer a whole lot of details and
I would have to say that I'd need to be omniscient to answer it honestly.

As it stands right now, I can only go on the empirical data. We use our reason to perceive existence, and so far no other method is known to be able to adequately replace it. So I don't look as knowledge and reason as goals-- knowledge is all we can attain, and reason is the only means. Anything Mankind attains can be classified as "knowledge" (although there are degrees of certainty, probability, and possibility) and reason fundamentally is the only method we have of attaining it.

I think that the problem most people have with rationality is that they perceive that it doesn't address human intangible issues such as emotions, "feelings", fears, desires and frailties, hence they feel reason is somehow inadequate. I take a very different view. Stripped of reason, one cannot even perceive the concept of love or hate or compassion, so therefore, the keystone of our perception of existence *must* be reason.

 

[Hollie]

Hollie, my apologies if I am asking you to repeat yourself here but if you don't mind saying, what is you religious/spiritual affiliation?

No religion and no spiritual affiliation.

Strong agnostic.

My wonderful Dad, a Protestant, exposed me to religion early but never pushed belief.

Do you believe God can perform acts in this world? so to speak. Do you believe he does? Do you believe you have ever witnessed such an act?

No, to your questions.

What I'm addressing are the analogous worldviews with the empirical reality we all reside in within this existence. The theistic one purposely purports a supernatural one, an existence where events counter logic and reason, something we do not see extant in any meaningful way.

What some call "faith" I call empirical "trust". I build no dogma of supernatural beings and heaven's and hells, and fallen angels and miracles-- I simply see natural events as natural events with no need for god(s). If the theories and laws asserted show themselves to not hold true, they get discarded in favor of that which does.

 

[PostmodernProph]

Put your dancing shoes back on and pay attention.

Did you somehow miss the part where your homework was to: "Identify which parts are literally and which are not. Be sure to give us authoritative information that we can independently confirm."

everything I have said can be independently confirmed.....
here, knock yourself out....
Greek and Hebrew Interlinear Bible and Concordance

That confirms only that can cut and paste.

Are you hoping to prove the bibles are true by cutting and pasting from the bibles?

/shrugs....I cut and paste a tool that permits even those who have not studied Hebrew can confirm independently, what I stated.....you don't need to take my word for it or anyone else's word for it.....go look at the verb form for Genesis 1......go look at the beginning word from Genesis 1:2.....