Why Is There Controversy Over Confederate Monuments?

[g5000]

Why are we talking about abortion in a redneck topic?

I want to hear more pseudocons defend the statues of the people they have called Democratic racist slavers in umpteen topics on this forum. It's ripping hilarious.

 

[Divine Wind]

...But IIRC (and please post links if I'm wrong so I can admit that clearly), the South started the Civil War because they believed Lincoln would dismantle slavery. ....

The maxim that "the victors write the history books" is exemplified by the so-called "history of the Civil War".

The South didn't start the Civil War. Southern states seceded from the Union over slavery. President Lincoln attacked the South to drag them back into the Union against their will. This is shown by the fact that most battles took place in the South. If the South had started the war, wouldn't most battles have been in the North?

President Lincoln's letter to Horace Greeley is a confession to this fact.

Good map.

The rebel legislatures should have taken their case for secession to the SCOTUS.

Instead they rebelled without any legal justification.

So secession was an illegal act.

Lincoln had no choice. The rebels were seizing arms and digging in.

Disagreed. If that was true, why was it made illegal post-Civil War?

 

[Divine Wind]

...But IIRC (and please post links if I'm wrong so I can admit that clearly), the South started the Civil War because they believed Lincoln would dismantle slavery. ....

The maxim that "the victors write the history books" is exemplified by the so-called "history of the Civil War".

The South didn't start the Civil War. Southern states seceded from the Union over slavery. President Lincoln attacked the South to drag them back into the Union against their will. This is shown by the fact that most battles took place in the South. If the South had started the war, wouldn't most battles have been in the North?

President Lincoln's letter to Horace Greeley is a confession to this fact.

Good map.

The rebel legislatures should have taken their case for secession to the SCOTUS.

Instead they rebelled without any legal justification.

So secession was an illegal act.

Lincoln had no choice. The rebels were seizing arms and digging in.

Was our secession from England an illegal treasonous act? I think King George considered it to be.

Yes. All the Yankee Liberals on this forum are also Tories.

 

[paperview]

Don't care about the monuments, personally, but most of the rest of this is nonsense. Was it treason for the colonists to take up arms against the lawfully elected government of Great Britain? Should we write an apology letter to Her Majesty and beg for her to take us evil traitors back?

The Founding Father's knew they would be hung as traitors - even as they signed the DoI..

You should know that Kevin.

"We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately." -- Benjamin Franklin at the signing of the Declaration of Independence

“If this be treason, make the most of it.” - Patrick Henry

"Also, the Confederates didn't start the Civil War, per se. They fired the first shots at Fort Sumter, of course, but Lincoln purposefully provoked them into doing so because he knew how they would respond. So it's hard to say the south is solely responsible for starting the war."

Keven, Kevin, Kevin....haven't we been through this before?

The first shots were fired in January of 1861. Before Lincoln ever stepped into office.

And before that, during, and after -- before the man ever held the title President Lincoln, the South was doing some pretty heavy work seizing and stealing federal property all across the south and committing Acts of War.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Don't care about the monuments, personally, but most of the rest of this is nonsense. Was it treason for the colonists to take up arms against the lawfully elected government of Great Britain? Should we write an apology letter to Her Majesty and beg for her to take us evil traitors back?

The Founding Father's knew they would be hung as traitors - even as they signed the DoI..

You should know that Kevin.

"We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately." -- Benjamin Franklin at the signing of the Declaration of Independence

“If this be treason, make the most of it.” - Patrick Henry

"Also, the Confederates didn't start the Civil War, per se. They fired the first shots at Fort Sumter, of course, but Lincoln purposefully provoked them into doing so because he knew how they would respond. So it's hard to say the south is solely responsible for starting the war."

Keven, Kevin, Kevin....haven't we been through this before?

The first shots were fired in January of 1861. Before Lincoln ever stepped into office.

And before that, during, and after -- before the man ever held the title President Lincoln, the South was doing some pretty heavy work seizing and stealing federal property all across the south and committing Acts of War.

I do know that, but it's either treason or it's not. Might doesn't make right. If secession is treason then the colonists were traitors, period. That they won doesn't change anything.

And the Civil War didn't start until after Lincoln was in office, so while it's certainly not an irrelevant fact, the Confederates firing on Fort Sumter prior to Lincoln didn't start the Civil War.

 

[paperview]

Don't care about the monuments, personally, but most of the rest of this is nonsense. Was it treason for the colonists to take up arms against the lawfully elected government of Great Britain? Should we write an apology letter to Her Majesty and beg for her to take us evil traitors back?

The Founding Father's knew they would be hung as traitors - even as they signed the DoI..

You should know that Kevin.

"We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately." -- Benjamin Franklin at the signing of the Declaration of Independence

“If this be treason, make the most of it.” - Patrick Henry

"Also, the Confederates didn't start the Civil War, per se. They fired the first shots at Fort Sumter, of course, but Lincoln purposefully provoked them into doing so because he knew how they would respond. So it's hard to say the south is solely responsible for starting the war."

Keven, Kevin, Kevin....haven't we been through this before?

The first shots were fired in January of 1861. Before Lincoln ever stepped into office.

And before that, during, and after -- before the man ever held the title President Lincoln, the South was doing some pretty heavy work seizing and stealing federal property all across the south and committing Acts of War.

I do know that, but it's either treason or it's not. Might doesn't make right. If secession is treason then the colonists were traitors, period. That they won doesn't change anything.

And the Civil War didn't start until after Lincoln was in office, so while it's certainly not an irrelevant fact, the Confederates firing on Fort Sumter prior to Lincoln didn't start the Civil War.

1. Yes, winning. It matters.
2. The first shots were fired in January of 1861 - and not at Sumter.

And before that, during, and after -- before Lincoln ever held the title President Lincoln, the South was doing some pretty heavy work seizing and stealing federal property all across the south and committing Acts of War.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Don't care about the monuments, personally, but most of the rest of this is nonsense. Was it treason for the colonists to take up arms against the lawfully elected government of Great Britain? Should we write an apology letter to Her Majesty and beg for her to take us evil traitors back?

The Founding Father's knew they would be hung as traitors - even as they signed the DoI..

You should know that Kevin.

"We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately." -- Benjamin Franklin at the signing of the Declaration of Independence

“If this be treason, make the most of it.” - Patrick Henry

"Also, the Confederates didn't start the Civil War, per se. They fired the first shots at Fort Sumter, of course, but Lincoln purposefully provoked them into doing so because he knew how they would respond. So it's hard to say the south is solely responsible for starting the war."

Keven, Kevin, Kevin....haven't we been through this before?

The first shots were fired in January of 1861. Before Lincoln ever stepped into office.

And before that, during, and after -- before the man ever held the title President Lincoln, the South was doing some pretty heavy work seizing and stealing federal property all across the south and committing Acts of War.

I do know that, but it's either treason or it's not. Might doesn't make right. If secession is treason then the colonists were traitors, period. That they won doesn't change anything.

And the Civil War didn't start until after Lincoln was in office, so while it's certainly not an irrelevant fact, the Confederates firing on Fort Sumter prior to Lincoln didn't start the Civil War.

1. Yes, winning. It matters.
2. The first shots were fired in January of 1861 - and not at Sumter.

And before that, during, and after -- before Lincoln ever held the title President Lincoln, the South was doing some pretty heavy work seizing and stealing federal property all across the south and committing Acts of War.

1. Yes, it matters, but it doesn't change the fact of whether something is right or wrong. That the criminal overpowers the victim and takes their money doesn't give the criminal the right to the money. If it's treason it's treason regardless of whether you're successful.

2. Again, the war didn't start until Lincoln purposefully sought to provoke the south into firing on the north by trying to resupply Sumter. You can say what the south did prior was an act of war, but the fact is that it was Fort Sumter that started the war. Lincoln provoked the south, the south responded as he hoped they would and he got the war he wanted to force them back into the Union.

 

[paperview]

Don't care about the monuments, personally, but most of the rest of this is nonsense. Was it treason for the colonists to take up arms against the lawfully elected government of Great Britain? Should we write an apology letter to Her Majesty and beg for her to take us evil traitors back?

The Founding Father's knew they would be hung as traitors - even as they signed the DoI..

You should know that Kevin.

"We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately." -- Benjamin Franklin at the signing of the Declaration of Independence

“If this be treason, make the most of it.” - Patrick Henry

"Also, the Confederates didn't start the Civil War, per se. They fired the first shots at Fort Sumter, of course, but Lincoln purposefully provoked them into doing so because he knew how they would respond. So it's hard to say the south is solely responsible for starting the war."

Keven, Kevin, Kevin....haven't we been through this before?

The first shots were fired in January of 1861. Before Lincoln ever stepped into office.

And before that, during, and after -- before the man ever held the title President Lincoln, the South was doing some pretty heavy work seizing and stealing federal property all across the south and committing Acts of War.

I do know that, but it's either treason or it's not. Might doesn't make right. If secession is treason then the colonists were traitors, period. That they won doesn't change anything.

And the Civil War didn't start until after Lincoln was in office, so while it's certainly not an irrelevant fact, the Confederates firing on Fort Sumter prior to Lincoln didn't start the Civil War.

1. Yes, winning. It matters.
2. The first shots were fired in January of 1861 - and not at Sumter.

And before that, during, and after -- before Lincoln ever held the title President Lincoln, the South was doing some pretty heavy work seizing and stealing federal property all across the south and committing Acts of War.

1. Yes, it matters, but it doesn't change the fact of whether something is right or wrong. That the criminal overpowers the victim and takes their money doesn't give the criminal the right to the money. If it's treason it's treason regardless of whether you're successful.

2. Again, the war didn't start until Lincoln purposefully sought to provoke the south into firing on the north by trying to resupply Sumter. You can say what the south did prior was an act of war, but the fact is that it was Fort Sumter that started the war. Lincoln provoked the south, the south responded as he hoped they would and he got the war he wanted to force them back into the Union.

1. Correct, the southern traitors were thieves, stealing federal property and money from the US treasury that wasn't theirs. That was wrong. Bad southerners. Glad they learned their lesson.

2. The South was at war with the North about ten minutes after Lincoln was declared president. They could not abide a GOP president. You know this. Committing numerous Acts of War all over the South as yet undeclared did not make their Acts of War and firing 300 cannonballs on Union ships months before Lincoln was president any less a hostile provocation of war.

Military Academies and many scholars consider the Citadel cadets firing on the Union steamship Star of the West in early January the actual start of the war, though unofficial.

WAR
WAS
ON.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Don't care about the monuments, personally, but most of the rest of this is nonsense. Was it treason for the colonists to take up arms against the lawfully elected government of Great Britain? Should we write an apology letter to Her Majesty and beg for her to take us evil traitors back?

The Founding Father's knew they would be hung as traitors - even as they signed the DoI..

You should know that Kevin.

"We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately." -- Benjamin Franklin at the signing of the Declaration of Independence

“If this be treason, make the most of it.” - Patrick Henry

"Also, the Confederates didn't start the Civil War, per se. They fired the first shots at Fort Sumter, of course, but Lincoln purposefully provoked them into doing so because he knew how they would respond. So it's hard to say the south is solely responsible for starting the war."

Keven, Kevin, Kevin....haven't we been through this before?

The first shots were fired in January of 1861. Before Lincoln ever stepped into office.

And before that, during, and after -- before the man ever held the title President Lincoln, the South was doing some pretty heavy work seizing and stealing federal property all across the south and committing Acts of War.

I do know that, but it's either treason or it's not. Might doesn't make right. If secession is treason then the colonists were traitors, period. That they won doesn't change anything.

And the Civil War didn't start until after Lincoln was in office, so while it's certainly not an irrelevant fact, the Confederates firing on Fort Sumter prior to Lincoln didn't start the Civil War.

1. Yes, winning. It matters.
2. The first shots were fired in January of 1861 - and not at Sumter.

And before that, during, and after -- before Lincoln ever held the title President Lincoln, the South was doing some pretty heavy work seizing and stealing federal property all across the south and committing Acts of War.

1. Yes, it matters, but it doesn't change the fact of whether something is right or wrong. That the criminal overpowers the victim and takes their money doesn't give the criminal the right to the money. If it's treason it's treason regardless of whether you're successful.

2. Again, the war didn't start until Lincoln purposefully sought to provoke the south into firing on the north by trying to resupply Sumter. You can say what the south did prior was an act of war, but the fact is that it was Fort Sumter that started the war. Lincoln provoked the south, the south responded as he hoped they would and he got the war he wanted to force them back into the Union.

1. Correct, the southern traitors were thieves, stealing federal property and money from the US treasury that wasn't theirs. That was wrong. Bad southerners. Glad they learned their lesson.

2. The South was at war with the North about ten minutes after Lincoln was declared president. They could not abide a GOP president. You know this. Committing numerous Acts of War all over the South as yet undeclared did not make their Acts of War and firing 300 cannonballs on Union ships months before Lincoln was president any less a hostile provocation of war.

Military Academies and many scholars consider the Citadel cadets firing on the Union steamship Star of the West in early January the actual start of the war, though unofficial.

WAR
WAS
ON.

We both know that seizing federal property isn't necessarily an act of war. That's too simplistic. The south didn't want war, all one has to do is look at the Confederate economy compared to the north to see that, never mind the actual comments from people like Jefferson Davis, and obviously neither did Buchanan or the north in general. Thus, again, the act that started the war was Lincoln provoking the south into firing on Fort Sumter. Lincoln wanted the war to force the southern states back into the union and since public sentiment in the north was largely in favor of saying good riddance to the south, he had to make them fire the first shots.

 

[paperview]

The Founding Father's knew they would be hung as traitors - even as they signed the DoI..

You should know that Kevin.

"We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately." -- Benjamin Franklin at the signing of the Declaration of Independence

“If this be treason, make the most of it.” - Patrick Henry

"Also, the Confederates didn't start the Civil War, per se. They fired the first shots at Fort Sumter, of course, but Lincoln purposefully provoked them into doing so because he knew how they would respond. So it's hard to say the south is solely responsible for starting the war."

Keven, Kevin, Kevin....haven't we been through this before?

The first shots were fired in January of 1861. Before Lincoln ever stepped into office.

And before that, during, and after -- before the man ever held the title President Lincoln, the South was doing some pretty heavy work seizing and stealing federal property all across the south and committing Acts of War.

I do know that, but it's either treason or it's not. Might doesn't make right. If secession is treason then the colonists were traitors, period. That they won doesn't change anything.

And the Civil War didn't start until after Lincoln was in office, so while it's certainly not an irrelevant fact, the Confederates firing on Fort Sumter prior to Lincoln didn't start the Civil War.

1. Yes, winning. It matters.
2. The first shots were fired in January of 1861 - and not at Sumter.

And before that, during, and after -- before Lincoln ever held the title President Lincoln, the South was doing some pretty heavy work seizing and stealing federal property all across the south and committing Acts of War.

1. Yes, it matters, but it doesn't change the fact of whether something is right or wrong. That the criminal overpowers the victim and takes their money doesn't give the criminal the right to the money. If it's treason it's treason regardless of whether you're successful.

2. Again, the war didn't start until Lincoln purposefully sought to provoke the south into firing on the north by trying to resupply Sumter. You can say what the south did prior was an act of war, but the fact is that it was Fort Sumter that started the war. Lincoln provoked the south, the south responded as he hoped they would and he got the war he wanted to force them back into the Union.

1. Correct, the southern traitors were thieves, stealing federal property and money from the US treasury that wasn't theirs. That was wrong. Bad southerners. Glad they learned their lesson.

2. The South was at war with the North about ten minutes after Lincoln was declared president. They could not abide a GOP president. You know this. Committing numerous Acts of War all over the South as yet undeclared did not make their Acts of War and firing 300 cannonballs on Union ships months before Lincoln was president any less a hostile provocation of war.

Military Academies and many scholars consider the Citadel cadets firing on the Union steamship Star of the West in early January the actual start of the war, though unofficial.

WAR
WAS
ON.

We both know that seizing federal property isn't necessarily an act of war. That's too simplistic. The south didn't want war, all one has to do is look at the Confederate economy compared to the north to see that, never mind the actual comments from people like Jefferson Davis, and obviously neither did Buchanan or the north in general. Thus, again, the act that started the war was Lincoln provoking the south into firing on Fort Sumter. Lincoln wanted the war to force the southern states back into the union and since public sentiment in the north was largely in favor of saying good riddance to the south, he had to make them fire the first shots.

Alright, Kevin -- you made me do it.

Breaking out the timeline again.

The first shots were fired in January of 1861.

But before that, the South was doing some pretty heavy work seizing and stealing and committing Acts of War.

"December 20, 1860. South Carolina secedes from the Union.

On that same day William T. Sherman says to his friends in the South, "You, you people of the South, believe there can be such a thing as peaceable secession. You don't know what you are doing. I know there can be no such thing...If you will have it, the North must fight you for its own preservation. Yes, South Carolina has by the act precipitated war..."

December 27, 1860. The first Federal property to fall into South Carolina hands is the U.S. revenue cutter William Aiken turned over to secessionists by its commander, Capt. N. L. Coste, who did not resign his commission and therefore was in violation of his oath of office. The crew left the ship and went North.

Castle Pickney was seized by South Carolina militia and a problem arose: were the two Federal soldiers captured in the fort to be considered prisoners of war? If so, it would imply that there was in fact, a WAR. Following a lengthy discussion, the one Federal officer was allowed to go to Ft. Sumter while a sergeant and his family were given safe conduct to remain in their quarters at the fort.

What was significant was that the secessionists now held, for the first time, a U.S. fort. Union officer Abner Doubleday called it "the first overt act of the Secessionists against the Sovereignty of the United States."

Fort Moultrie is also occupied by South Carolina militia on this day, after the fort was abandoned by Major Anderson and Federal troops on December 26, 1860, who relocated to Ft. Sumter during the night.

December 28, 1860. A detachment of South Carolina militia enters and takes control of Fort Johnson. Three out of four Federal forts have been seized and are now under the control of South Carolina militia troops.

January 3, 1861. The War Department cancelled plans to ship guns from Pittsburgh to the forts in the South. Former Secretary of War Floyd, who resigned and went South, had been shipping weapons and large guns South for the past several months to help build up the Southern arsenals.

January 4, 1861. Even though it had not yet seceded from the Union, Alabama troops seize the U.S. arsenal at Mt. Vernon, Alabama..

January 5, 1861. Even though it STILL has not yet seceded from the Union, Alabama troops seizes Fort Morgan and Gaines which protect the harbor at Mobile.

January 6, 1861. Even though it has not yet seceded from the Union, Florida troops seize the Federal arsenal at Apalachiocola.

January 7, 1861. Even though it has STILL not seceded from the Union, Florida troops seize Fort Marion at St. Augustine.

January 9, 1861. On this day, Senators Judah P. Benjamin and John Slidell of Louisiana telegraphed Gov. Moore of that state (which had not yet seceded from the Union), that Federal gunboats were secretly bringing supplies to the forts at the mouth of the Mississippi River. Both men had yet to resign from the Senate. Gov. Moore ordered Braxton Bragg and 500 troops to seize the forts and the United States arsenal at Baton Rouge.

---> On this same day, the Star of the West attempted to resupply Fort Sumter but was fired on by a masked battery from Morris Island and then by guns from Fort Moultrie. In spite of the fact the ship was flying two United States flags, the ship was repeatedly fired on. The ship turned and steamed away.

January 10, 1862. General Bragg and the militia seize the United States forts and arsenals in Louisiana. William T. Sherman, presiding as head of the Louisiana State Seminary of Learning and Military Academy, stated that Bragg's actions were, "an act of war and a breach of common decency."

On the same day in North Carolina, before that state had yet to secede, citizens of Smithville and Wilmington occupied Forts Johnson and Caswell. The State government at Raleigh later repudiated these moves.

January 12, 1861. Captain James Armstrong, commander of the Warrington Navy Yard at Pensacola, Florida, is captured and "regarded [as] a prisoner of war, and...placed on his parole of honor...not to bear arms against the State of Florida."

January 13, 1861. Several men are seen near Fort Pickens in the night and were fired upon. These unknown men retired from the area of the fort.

January, 18, 1861. In the United States House of Representatives, John Sherman, brother of William T. Sherman, rose to reply to his Ohio colleague, Pendleton, remarks that the North should be concillatory towards the South. Sherman, in a highly emotional speech, said that it was not the North that should be conciliatory, it was the South; were they not the ones who had fired on the flag and seized government property? Was not Mississippi stopping all traffic at Vicksburg for search? (which Mississippi had begun on January 12, 1861.)

January 21, 1861. Mississippi troops seize Fort Massachusetts off the coast, in the Gult. Ship Island is also taken.

January 24, 1861. Georgia troops occupy the U.S. arsenal at Augusta.

January 26, 1861. At Savannah, Georgia, Fort Jackson and the Oglethorpe Barracks are seized by state troops.

January 29, 1861. Louisiana state troops take possession of Fort Macomb, outside New Orleans. The revenue cutter Robert McClelland is surrendered to Louisiana state authorities by Captain Breshwood, despite orders not to do so by the Secretary of the Treasury.

Also on this date, a notice of truce was sent from Washington to the army and navy commanders at Pensacola. It was the result of an agreement between Secretaries Holt and Toucey and Florida official Chase and Stephen Mallory.

January 30, 1861. President-elect Lincoln leaves Springfield, Ill., to visit his step-mother in Coles County. He has not even left for Washington yet. In Mobile Bay, the U.S. revenue schooner Lewis Cass was surrendered to Alabama by its commander.

January 31, 1861. In New Orleans, the U.S. Branch Mint was seized by state troops along with the revenue schooner Washington.

February 8, 1861. Before it had yet to secede from the Union, Arkansas seized the Little Rock U.S. arsenal.

February 11, 1861. Lincoln boards the train that will take him to Washington.

February 16, 1861. Although it had yet to secede from the Union, in San Antonio, Texas, state troops seize the U.S. military compound, barracks and arsenal.

February 19, 1861. In New Orleans, the U.S. Paymaster's office was seized by state troops.

March 2, 1861. Texas, now out of the Union, seizes the U.S. revenue schooner Henry Dodge at Galveston.

March 4, 1861. Lincoln is inaugurated.

March 6, 1861. The Confederate Congress authorizes an army of 100,000 volunteers for twelve months.

March 15, 1861. The State of Louisiana transferred over $536,000 in money taken from the U.S. Mint in New Orleans to the Confederate government.

March 18, 1861. In the Florida panhandle, General Braxton Bragg refused to permit further supply of Ft. Pickens, in effect, nullifying the truce then in effect between Washington and Florida from January 29, 1861.

March 20, 1861. Texas troops seize three more Federal forts. At Mobile, a Federal supply ship, the U.S. sloop Isabella, was seized before it could sail with supplies to Pensacola.

April 3, 1861. In Charleston, South Carolina, a battery placed on Morris Island, fired at the Federal schooner Rhoda H. Shannon.

April 12, 1861. At 4:30AM, Fort Sumter was fired on by Confederate forces.

April 15, 1861. President Lincoln calls for 75,000 volunteers for three months service.
-UnionBlue.

------------

Numerous Acts of war. Committed by the southerners, well before Lincoln stepped into office.

 

[12icer]

And where did this timeline come from? It is really funny to see a northern abolitionist supporter try to justify the War of Northern Aggression with a timeline written by a rewriter. Before you have War, you have acts taken that cause the conflict of interest that leads to war. Why don't you read ACTUAL history from a book written by the people who lived during the war you are discussing, THEN get back to us with a REAL timeline.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

I do know that, but it's either treason or it's not. Might doesn't make right. If secession is treason then the colonists were traitors, period. That they won doesn't change anything.

And the Civil War didn't start until after Lincoln was in office, so while it's certainly not an irrelevant fact, the Confederates firing on Fort Sumter prior to Lincoln didn't start the Civil War.

1. Yes, winning. It matters.
2. The first shots were fired in January of 1861 - and not at Sumter.

And before that, during, and after -- before Lincoln ever held the title President Lincoln, the South was doing some pretty heavy work seizing and stealing federal property all across the south and committing Acts of War.

1. Yes, it matters, but it doesn't change the fact of whether something is right or wrong. That the criminal overpowers the victim and takes their money doesn't give the criminal the right to the money. If it's treason it's treason regardless of whether you're successful.

2. Again, the war didn't start until Lincoln purposefully sought to provoke the south into firing on the north by trying to resupply Sumter. You can say what the south did prior was an act of war, but the fact is that it was Fort Sumter that started the war. Lincoln provoked the south, the south responded as he hoped they would and he got the war he wanted to force them back into the Union.

1. Correct, the southern traitors were thieves, stealing federal property and money from the US treasury that wasn't theirs. That was wrong. Bad southerners. Glad they learned their lesson.

2. The South was at war with the North about ten minutes after Lincoln was declared president. They could not abide a GOP president. You know this. Committing numerous Acts of War all over the South as yet undeclared did not make their Acts of War and firing 300 cannonballs on Union ships months before Lincoln was president any less a hostile provocation of war.

Military Academies and many scholars consider the Citadel cadets firing on the Union steamship Star of the West in early January the actual start of the war, though unofficial.

WAR
WAS
ON.

We both know that seizing federal property isn't necessarily an act of war. That's too simplistic. The south didn't want war, all one has to do is look at the Confederate economy compared to the north to see that, never mind the actual comments from people like Jefferson Davis, and obviously neither did Buchanan or the north in general. Thus, again, the act that started the war was Lincoln provoking the south into firing on Fort Sumter. Lincoln wanted the war to force the southern states back into the union and since public sentiment in the north was largely in favor of saying good riddance to the south, he had to make them fire the first shots.

Alright, Kevin -- you made me do it.

Breaking out the timeline again.

The first shots were fired in January of 1861.

But before that, the South was doing some pretty heavy work seizing and stealing and committing Acts of War.

"December 20, 1860. South Carolina secedes from the Union.

On that same day William T. Sherman says to his friends in the South, "You, you people of the South, believe there can be such a thing as peaceable secession. You don't know what you are doing. I know there can be no such thing...If you will have it, the North must fight you for its own preservation. Yes, South Carolina has by the act precipitated war..."

December 27, 1860. The first Federal property to fall into South Carolina hands is the U.S. revenue cutter William Aiken turned over to secessionists by its commander, Capt. N. L. Coste, who did not resign his commission and therefore was in violation of his oath of office. The crew left the ship and went North.

Castle Pickney was seized by South Carolina militia and a problem arose: were the two Federal soldiers captured in the fort to be considered prisoners of war? If so, it would imply that there was in fact, a WAR. Following a lengthy discussion, the one Federal officer was allowed to go to Ft. Sumter while a sergeant and his family were given safe conduct to remain in their quarters at the fort.

What was significant was that the secessionists now held, for the first time, a U.S. fort. Union officer Abner Doubleday called it "the first overt act of the Secessionists against the Sovereignty of the United States."

Fort Moultrie is also occupied by South Carolina militia on this day, after the fort was abandoned by Major Anderson and Federal troops on December 26, 1860, who relocated to Ft. Sumter during the night.

December 28, 1860. A detachment of South Carolina militia enters and takes control of Fort Johnson. Three out of four Federal forts have been seized and are now under the control of South Carolina militia troops.

January 3, 1861. The War Department cancelled plans to ship guns from Pittsburgh to the forts in the South. Former Secretary of War Floyd, who resigned and went South, had been shipping weapons and large guns South for the past several months to help build up the Southern arsenals.

January 4, 1861. Even though it had not yet seceded from the Union, Alabama troops seize the U.S. arsenal at Mt. Vernon, Alabama..

January 5, 1861. Even though it STILL has not yet seceded from the Union, Alabama troops seizes Fort Morgan and Gaines which protect the harbor at Mobile.

January 6, 1861. Even though it has not yet seceded from the Union, Florida troops seize the Federal arsenal at Apalachiocola.

January 7, 1861. Even though it has STILL not seceded from the Union, Florida troops seize Fort Marion at St. Augustine.

January 9, 1861. On this day, Senators Judah P. Benjamin and John Slidell of Louisiana telegraphed Gov. Moore of that state (which had not yet seceded from the Union), that Federal gunboats were secretly bringing supplies to the forts at the mouth of the Mississippi River. Both men had yet to resign from the Senate. Gov. Moore ordered Braxton Bragg and 500 troops to seize the forts and the United States arsenal at Baton Rouge.

---> On this same day, the Star of the West attempted to resupply Fort Sumter but was fired on by a masked battery from Morris Island and then by guns from Fort Moultrie. In spite of the fact the ship was flying two United States flags, the ship was repeatedly fired on. The ship turned and steamed away.

January 10, 1862. General Bragg and the militia seize the United States forts and arsenals in Louisiana. William T. Sherman, presiding as head of the Louisiana State Seminary of Learning and Military Academy, stated that Bragg's actions were, "an act of war and a breach of common decency."

On the same day in North Carolina, before that state had yet to secede, citizens of Smithville and Wilmington occupied Forts Johnson and Caswell. The State government at Raleigh later repudiated these moves.

January 12, 1861. Captain James Armstrong, commander of the Warrington Navy Yard at Pensacola, Florida, is captured and "regarded [as] a prisoner of war, and...placed on his parole of honor...not to bear arms against the State of Florida."

January 13, 1861. Several men are seen near Fort Pickens in the night and were fired upon. These unknown men retired from the area of the fort.

January, 18, 1861. In the United States House of Representatives, John Sherman, brother of William T. Sherman, rose to reply to his Ohio colleague, Pendleton, remarks that the North should be concillatory towards the South. Sherman, in a highly emotional speech, said that it was not the North that should be conciliatory, it was the South; were they not the ones who had fired on the flag and seized government property? Was not Mississippi stopping all traffic at Vicksburg for search? (which Mississippi had begun on January 12, 1861.)

January 21, 1861. Mississippi troops seize Fort Massachusetts off the coast, in the Gult. Ship Island is also taken.

January 24, 1861. Georgia troops occupy the U.S. arsenal at Augusta.

January 26, 1861. At Savannah, Georgia, Fort Jackson and the Oglethorpe Barracks are seized by state troops.

January 29, 1861. Louisiana state troops take possession of Fort Macomb, outside New Orleans. The revenue cutter Robert McClelland is surrendered to Louisiana state authorities by Captain Breshwood, despite orders not to do so by the Secretary of the Treasury.

Also on this date, a notice of truce was sent from Washington to the army and navy commanders at Pensacola. It was the result of an agreement between Secretaries Holt and Toucey and Florida official Chase and Stephen Mallory.

January 30, 1861. President-elect Lincoln leaves Springfield, Ill., to visit his step-mother in Coles County. He has not even left for Washington yet. In Mobile Bay, the U.S. revenue schooner Lewis Cass was surrendered to Alabama by its commander.

January 31, 1861. In New Orleans, the U.S. Branch Mint was seized by state troops along with the revenue schooner Washington.

February 8, 1861. Before it had yet to secede from the Union, Arkansas seized the Little Rock U.S. arsenal.

February 11, 1861. Lincoln boards the train that will take him to Washington.

February 16, 1861. Although it had yet to secede from the Union, in San Antonio, Texas, state troops seize the U.S. military compound, barracks and arsenal.

February 19, 1861. In New Orleans, the U.S. Paymaster's office was seized by state troops.

March 2, 1861. Texas, now out of the Union, seizes the U.S. revenue schooner Henry Dodge at Galveston.

March 4, 1861. Lincoln is inaugurated.

March 6, 1861. The Confederate Congress authorizes an army of 100,000 volunteers for twelve months.

March 15, 1861. The State of Louisiana transferred over $536,000 in money taken from the U.S. Mint in New Orleans to the Confederate government.

March 18, 1861. In the Florida panhandle, General Braxton Bragg refused to permit further supply of Ft. Pickens, in effect, nullifying the truce then in effect between Washington and Florida from January 29, 1861.

March 20, 1861. Texas troops seize three more Federal forts. At Mobile, a Federal supply ship, the U.S. sloop Isabella, was seized before it could sail with supplies to Pensacola.

April 3, 1861. In Charleston, South Carolina, a battery placed on Morris Island, fired at the Federal schooner Rhoda H. Shannon.

April 12, 1861. At 4:30AM, Fort Sumter was fired on by Confederate forces.

April 15, 1861. President Lincoln calls for 75,000 volunteers for three months service.
-UnionBlue.

------------

Numerous Acts of war. Committed by the southerners, well before Lincoln stepped into office.

Nobody is questioning your timeline or the fact that the Confederates were seizing federal property. The fact is, however, that the Civil War didn't start until after Lincoln provoked the south into firing on Fort Sumter. Period.

 

[Kondor3]

1. The Civil War has been over for 152 years

2. The South lost

3. The North won

--------------------------

Oh, wait a minute...

We (Northerners) got most of your nigras, didn't we?

Mebbe we didn't win so big, after all...

 

[DarkFury]

New Orleans has begun taking down Confederate monuments, moving them from public spaces to museums. Why is this controversial?

First, let's be honest: Taking up arms against the lawfully-elected government of the United States is treason. Sure, one man's treason is another man's freedom fighter. But IIRC (and please post links if I'm wrong so I can admit that clearly), the South started the Civil War because they believed Lincoln would dismantle slavery. Not because he said he would, because he didn't, but because they believed he would.

This isn't the case of a downtrodden, abused people rising up against a cruel, despotic government. IMO, that makes rebellion morally justified. But this is a case of people rising up against a democratic republic because they were worried the gov't would take away their slaves.

And I get that some folks want to change the Civil War into a noble struggle for state's rights. But let's remember two facts: 1) This is about the right to own black people as slaves, and 2) the feds hadn't trampled on that right when the South started war.

Now, I appreciate that the US Civil War is part of our history. We shouldn't ignore it or whitewash it. And there's nothing wrong with loving your state or respecting your ancestors. But why do some people want to keep statues and monuments dedicated to people who fought and killed US citizens? Would it be okay if a Muslim-American community built a statue of Nidal Hasan (the guy who killed 13 people at Fort Hood) and claim it's part of their heritage?

Seriously, why is removing these monuments to put into a museum so controversial?

Not to hot on history are you moron? The South had a contract for a set price on cotton. The North refused to honor the contract. So the South burned the cotton to raise its price. The North then burned the docks so the South could not ship it's cotton overseas. That caused the South to attack a North fort.

The South at the time had the fourth largest economy in the world! World idiot world! You might want to read up before you run your liberal mouth again. Or you can stick to sucking dick. Your choice.

 

[toxicmedia]

You're not getting it.

There is a formula.

White + evangelical + uneducated + Nascar fan + Gay hater + Republican + dental problems + religious intolerance + trailer park + no plumbing = redneck.

There is a lot more to being a redneck

Why go out of your way to demonstrate your ignorance and prejudice?

You are engaged in turn speaking yet again, where_r. Now we will wait for your parroting.

Well, you know they have a point.

I mean it was Liberals who owned Slaves. Hitler was a liberal. Stalin was a Liberal. Southern Segregationists were Liberals. Liberals are huge racists, and Conservatives have been trying to get them to stop that forever.

Both JFK and MLK were conservatives

Why not!......in Trump land you can just call everyone who disagrees with you Nazi Communist Liberals

 

[JakeStarkey]

You're not getting it.

There is a formula.

White + evangelical + uneducated + Nascar fan + Gay hater + Republican + dental problems + religious intolerance + trailer park + no plumbing = redneck.

There is a lot more to being a redneck

Why go out of your way to demonstrate your ignorance and prejudice?

You are engaged in turn speaking yet again, where_r. Now we will wait for your parroting.

Well, you know they have a point.

I mean it was Liberals who owned Slaves. Hitler was a liberal. Stalin was a Liberal. Southern Segregationists were Liberals. Liberals are huge racists, and Conservatives have been trying to get them to stop that forever.

Both JFK and MLK were conservatives

Why not!......in Trump land you can just call everyone who disagrees with you Nazi Communist Liberals

tml, that is you in the mirror to whom you are talking: yes, that is how you describe your opponents.

 

[toxicmedia]

Why go out of your way to demonstrate your ignorance and prejudice?

You are engaged in turn speaking yet again, where_r. Now we will wait for your parroting.

Well, you know they have a point.

I mean it was Liberals who owned Slaves. Hitler was a liberal. Stalin was a Liberal. Southern Segregationists were Liberals. Liberals are huge racists, and Conservatives have been trying to get them to stop that forever.

Both JFK and MLK were conservatives

Why not!......in Trump land you can just call everyone who disagrees with you Nazi Communist Liberals

tml, that is you in the mirror to whom you are talking: yes, that is how you describe your opponents.

You're just a Nazi Communist Globalist plantation owner Jake

 

[JakeStarkey]

You are engaged in turn speaking yet again, where_r. Now we will wait for your parroting.

Well, you know they have a point.

I mean it was Liberals who owned Slaves. Hitler was a liberal. Stalin was a Liberal. Southern Segregationists were Liberals. Liberals are huge racists, and Conservatives have been trying to get them to stop that forever.

Both JFK and MLK were conservatives

Why not!......in Trump land you can just call everyone who disagrees with you Nazi Communist Liberals

tml, that is you in the mirror to whom you are talking: yes, that is how you describe your opponents.

You're just a Nazi Communist Globalist plantation owner Jake

I have three plantations on four continents, toxic

 

[danielpalos]

Article 1, Section 9. The great debate between Calhoun and Webster. The Compromise of 1850. Bleeding Kansas. Dred Scott. The caning of Charles Sumner. Harpers Ferry.

Any of this shit ring a bell?

The fact remains, there was a lot more to the Civil War than just slavery. To think otherwise is delusional

Yes, historical precedent was fixed by the Union, for all time; that, Only well regulated militias of the United States may not be infringed when keeping and bearing Arms for their State or the Union, regardless of all of the other ones.

 

[danielpalos]

Article 1, Section 9. The great debate between Calhoun and Webster. The Compromise of 1850. Bleeding Kansas. Dred Scott. The caning of Charles Sumner. Harpers Ferry.

Any of this shit ring a bell?

The fact remains, there was a lot more to the Civil War than just slavery. To think otherwise is delusional

Nope. It was about nothing more than slavery. To say otherwise is to be completely and willfully ignorant of our nation's history.

The racist Democrats' () reason for leaving the Union was over slavery. They said so themselves!

Any other complaints did not rise to the level of secession. Only slavery did.

The point is, we have a First Amendment. The South should have asked for faithful execution of our Eminent Domain clause, as that form of corporate welfare.