Why is green policy and renewable energy necessary?

[Big Fitz]

A thought occurred to me. What possible reason is there to go green? It used to mean that you believed in preventing hunting, farming and fishing depletion, which still are considered rational points of view. It dealt with things like pollution control like stopping 'love canals' and acid rain. But now... really. What does this even represent?

Consider now that Climate Change/Anthropogenic Global Warming has been shown to be the result of statistical manipulation by frauds and political opportunists, doesn't this kind of invalidate 95% of the reason for any push to be 'green'?

Oh sure, you have idiots out there who still believe we're going to run out of oil next week (set your always receding point of depletion to wherever) but find after find keeps proving them wrong too. Peak oilers just can't seem to accept that a bumblebee can fly despite why it shouldn't be able to according to their understanding.

So really, what sane person actually believes that there are any benefits to going green? All I can see is that it is social engineering for the sake of centralized power over people's lives and to shove society on to inefficient and less successful technology than what currently exists. All this based on the skeleton of the corpse of rational conservation policy that was long abandoned in the 1960's for this current radicalism.

Plus aren't these the same kind of people who believe that the world is overcrowded (utter crap) and we should kill off a few billion 'just to keep the balance'? Balance of what, we don't really know as we've shown even now we have lots of excess capacity to produce food, with the technology to allow even more people to live well on this world.

So really. Why bother going green?

 

[Chris]

Green energy is made in America.

Green energy takes the control of energy away from the big corporations and gives it to the ordinary citizen.

That's what they are REALLY afraid of.

 

[Big Fitz]

"Green" energy does not meet the needs of any modern society. That's what I and every businessman is afraid of. So should everyone else. The collapse of modern civilization to meet some imagined reality is indescribably stupid.

 

[Samson]

"Green" energy does not meet the needs of any modern society. That's what I and every businessman is afraid of. So should everyone else. The collapse of modern civilization to meet some imagined reality is indescribably stupid.

How does being energy efficient = The collapse of modern civilization?

Are you pissed off about low-volume flush toilets?

 

[Chris]

"Green" energy does not meet the needs of any modern society. That's what I and every businessman is afraid of. So should everyone else. The collapse of modern civilization to meet some imagined reality is indescribably stupid.

How does being energy efficient = The collapse of modern civilization?

Are you pissed off about low-volume flush toilets?

Yes, he is.

Last week I was in a 7,000 square foot house that has an energy bill of $100 a month.

It can be done.

But taking control of energy away from the big corporations is one more thing that Republicans are afraid of.

 

[uscitizen]

Don't go green, you will enjoy paying about 5x as much for energy in under 20 years.

Before the flop oil demand had pretty much reached daily pumping capacity.

 

[RodISHI]

Green energy is made in America.

Green energy takes the control of energy away from the big corporations and gives it to the ordinary citizen.

That's what they are REALLY afraid of.

How do you figure that? What is your line of thought? How are they giving it to the ordinary citizen if I might ask? I am curious to know which big corporations are taking away control to give to the ordinary citizen. How is this done?

 

[Big Fitz]

"Green" energy does not meet the needs of any modern society. That's what I and every businessman is afraid of. So should everyone else. The collapse of modern civilization to meet some imagined reality is indescribably stupid.

How does being energy efficient = The collapse of modern civilization?

Are you pissed off about low-volume flush toilets?

Ahhh moving the goal posts I see.

Conserving is fine, but conserving only delays the need for more energy and makes what you have more efficient.

BUT... there is a plateau, and after that, you have to give up the technology that requires the energy and therefore the convenience. And why are things convenience? Because they're more efficient, therefore you make your life harder and thereby less efficient. So, you can only conserve to the plateau and then you have to start increasing power supply. It's a negative feedback loop.

As for low flow toilets? Yes. I am. They suck. I save no water when I have to flush 2-5 times to get a turd to go down. I'll order my next toilet from canada and put it in myself and say 'fuckyall' to the green toilet nazis.

Don't go green, you will enjoy paying about 5x as much for energy in under 20 years.

Before the flop oil demand had pretty much reached daily pumping capacity.

And why has pumping capacity and refining capacity in this nation topped out (It's not even close worldwide to topping out. Peak oil is a environazi lie)? Ohh that's right, NIMBY lawsuits and anti humanist greens preventing any more exploration and development.

The math doesn't work for pinwheels and mirrors and moonshine. It does with Petrochemical energy and nuclear. BTW, the best form of producing electricity? Very environmentally friendly. Hydro.

 

[Samson]

"Green" energy does not meet the needs of any modern society. That's what I and every businessman is afraid of. So should everyone else. The collapse of modern civilization to meet some imagined reality is indescribably stupid.

How does being energy efficient = The collapse of modern civilization?

Are you pissed off about low-volume flush toilets?

Ahhh moving the goal posts I see.

I did? Conservation of Energy is not "Green?"

Conserving is fine, but conserving only delays the need for more energy and makes what you have more efficient.

Perhaps we need a new vocabulary word, so we needn't travel in little semantic circles.

Conserving, IMHO, simply means you use less energy. There is no assumption that there will be a future that is "delayed." I could conceivably conserve today, and use less tomorrow. Or I could conserve today, and use NOTHING tomorrow.

BUT... there is a plateau, and after that, you have to give up the technology that requires the energy and therefore the convenience. And why are things convenience? Because they're more efficient, therefore you make your life harder and thereby less efficient. So, you can only conserve to the plateau and then you have to start increasing power supply. It's a negative feedback loop.

This is utter nonsense, and again assumes that there must be an increase in energy required tomorrow.

If there is any relationship between convenience and efficiency, it the less efficient, the more convenient. An efficient power plant would use no energy to produce energy. There is no perpetual motion machine. This violates Physical Law, unless we consider nuclear physics, which allows that E = mc**2.

As for low flow toilets? Yes. I am. They suck. I save no water when I have to flush 2-5 times to get a turd to go down. I'll order my next toilet from canada and put it in myself and say 'fuckyall' to the green toilet nazis.

I'm no expert on Canadian Toilets.

However, you might try eating more fiber before investing in another toilet. And this can be used anagolously to the entire arguement: Insead of replacing existing energy systems, simply more wisely use the systems we have.

 

[Samson]

"Green" energy does not meet the needs of any modern society. That's what I and every businessman is afraid of. So should everyone else. The collapse of modern civilization to meet some imagined reality is indescribably stupid.

How does being energy efficient = The collapse of modern civilization?

Are you pissed off about low-volume flush toilets?

Yes, he is.

Last week I was in a 7,000 square foot house that has an energy bill of $100 a month.

It can be done.

But taking control of energy away from the big corporations is one more thing that Republicans are afraid of.

Only Republicans?

I can only guess what weird little path you've traveled to reach this conclusion.

 

[Samson]

Don't go green, you will enjoy paying about 5x as much for energy in under 20 years.

Before the flop oil demand had pretty much reached daily pumping capacity.

I heard the same thing 25 years ago.

I recall taking Environmental Chemistry to get a Chemistry Elective as part of my BS Chem. Engr back in 1984. Our wild-eyed Prof. lectured us about the need for Hydrogen Fuel IN THE IMMINENT FUTURE!!! At the end of the summer course I would never have imagined that a quarter of a century later I'd be paying $2.50/gallon gasoline to put in a F-150 that gets 25 mph.

 

[Chris]

Green energy is made in America.

Green energy takes the control of energy away from the big corporations and gives it to the ordinary citizen.

That's what they are REALLY afraid of.

How do you figure that? What is your line of thought? How are they giving it to the ordinary citizen if I might ask? I am curious to know which big corporations are taking away control to give to the ordinary citizen. How is this done?

I think you are confused.

Green energy can be made at home by ordinary citizens.

This is what the energy companies are most afraid of.

 

[RodISHI]

Green energy is made in America.

Green energy takes the control of energy away from the big corporations and gives it to the ordinary citizen.

That's what they are REALLY afraid of.

How do you figure that? What is your line of thought? How are they giving it to the ordinary citizen if I might ask? I am curious to know which big corporations are taking away control to give to the ordinary citizen. How is this done?

I think you are confused.

Green energy can be made at home by ordinary citizens.

This is what the energy companies are most afraid of.

No I am not confused I asked a question. First let us take a look at the reality of right now today. Can the average citizen make their own energy when many cannot afford to even make a house payments?

How much did that 7,000 sq ft house in your OP cost to fit with reen technology?

Don't think for a moment I do not support people being free of mega conglomerates that reward the rich and strip the poor. If I had my preferences I would not give them one penny to keep the electric line coming to the house here. Facts are though we do not have the means to be fully independent of the electric monster without burning lots of gas for the generator. My mining operation was setup to run on hydraulics not electricity. The cost savings were into hundreds of thousands of dollars to the operation from the very beginning. It was the the first fully hydraulic mine operation in the US that I know of from the feasibility study before starting the processing portion of the mine.

 

[Baruch Menachem]

I am going to take a departure here because of my religious upbringing. We have been given a charge and we are to be stewards of what we have, and return it in good shape when we are done with it.

We should be responsible, and take care of what we have.

 

[RodISHI]

I am going to take a departure here because of my religious upbringing. We have been given a charge and we are to be stewards of what we have, and return it in good shape when we are done with it.

We should be responsible, and take care of what we have.

Yes we are but some people have different views on how that should take place. I think many are already aware that the carbon credit pushers idea of saving the earth is taxing the man who breath it's air and still keep on polluting the environment. Growing genetically modified food that is paid for with taxpayer subsidies and selling that same altered and chemically laden product to the people to use for both food and fuel. Then charging the people for their man made diseases and manufactured cures of those diseases that are caused by these genetically altered products. It is what the profiteers refer to as cyclical consumption. Toxins work great for cyclical consumption when you put it into that perspective.

 

[Old Rocks]

A thought occurred to me.

Amazing!

What possible reason is there to go green?

Evereything from energy independence, global warming, and the health of the citizens of this nationb.

It used to mean that you believed in preventing hunting, farming and fishing depletion, which still are considered rational points of view.

Considered rational now, fought tooth and nail by the Conservatives of the time that did now want the government telling them what to do.

It dealt with things like pollution control like stopping 'love canals' and acid rain.

I was alive and reading the controversy on acid rain at the time the 'Cap and Trade' emissions rules were established. Same arguements that are at present being used against the 'Cap and Trade' for CO2.

And there were a bunch of people that denied that pollution had anything to do with the Love Canal medical problems.

But now... really. What does this even represent?

Consider now that Climate Change/Anthropogenic Global Warming has been shown to be the result of statistical manipulation by frauds and political opportunists, doesn't this kind of invalidate 95% of the reason for any push to be 'green'?

Consider that you have just told a lie. Whether willfully or out of profound ignorance is up to you to decide.

I have seen up close and personal, the glacial retreat and disappearing snowfields in the Cascades, Blues, Sierras, and Rocky Mountains.

The pictures of the polar ice caps are online for all to see.

Biologists are seeing species that have moved hundreds of miles further north, and south, in the southern hemisphere, than they have ever been observed before.

Even Roy Spencer's graphs show a rapidly increasing temperature over the last 50 years.

None of this is statistical manipulation. Ice caps and glaciers don't give a damn about statistics.

Oh sure, you have idiots out there who still believe we're going to run out of oil next week (set your always receding point of depletion to wherever) but find after find keeps proving them wrong too. Peak oilers just can't seem to accept that a bumblebee can fly despite why it shouldn't be able to according to their understanding.

Hell no, we will not run out of oil. As demand increases, price increases, and that makes previously expensive methods of recovery economical. However, is that the direction we want to go in?

Who controls the bulk of the oil? Not us. The only friendly nation that has major reserves is Canada. The rest of the oil we get by sending money to petro-dictators.

Why not switch to energy sources that are right here in the US? By use of wind, solar, geo-thermal, and nuclear, we can power our homes and transportation with energy we make ourselves.

So really, what sane person actually believes that there are any benefits to going green?

Anyone that is sane, and not an ideologically driven fool.

All I can see is that it is social engineering for the sake of centralized power over people's lives and to shove society on to inefficient and less successful technology than what currently exists.

All you can see is what you are spoon fed by drugged out radio jocks.

All this based on the skeleton of the corpse of rational conservation policy that was long abandoned in the 1960's for this current radicalism.

The radicalism of the 1960's finally gave our citizens of color real citizenship in our nation. Without that 'radicalism' Jim Crow would still rule in half of this nation.

Plus aren't these the same kind of people who believe that the world is overcrowded (utter crap) and we should kill off a few billion 'just to keep the balance'?

Hard to believe that there are people as ignorant as you. Yes, the world is overcrowded. There are too many people for the limited resources of this planet to give them all a reasonable standard of living.

As for your drivel about killing off a few billion of them, that is exactly what people like you are proposing to do by ignoring what the climate is trying to tell us about the level of the
GHGs.

Balance of what, we don't really know as we've shown even now we have lots of excess capacity to produce food, with the technology to allow even more people to live well on this world.

So really. Why bother going green?

It has been shown that many forms of life get along without a brain, so it is obvious that you believe it is totally unneccessary for you to use the one that you have.

Right now, we are mining water on every continent on earth, other than Antarctica. And many of the mines are about to run out, as the infilling of the aquifers is orders of magnitudes less than the withdrawal of the water for agriculture. When that water is gone, so is the agriculture.

On every continent, farmland is every day being paved over for cities, by the square mile per day. And here in the state, Conservatives fight zoning tooth and nail.

At present, the food reserves in the world are dwindling, and have been for years.

When there are no reserves, that means any kind of disaster, manmade or natural, will result in hundreds of thousands to millions starving.

 

[Old Rocks]

Green energy is made in America.

Green energy takes the control of energy away from the big corporations and gives it to the ordinary citizen.

That's what they are REALLY afraid of.

How do you figure that? What is your line of thought? How are they giving it to the ordinary citizen if I might ask? I am curious to know which big corporations are taking away control to give to the ordinary citizen. How is this done?

Right now, you pay for your electricity from a large corperation, unless you are lucky enough to be in a PUD. Socialism!!!!!! You pay a major corperation and a petro-dictatorship, every time you fill your tank.

The technology is already here for very cheap, very high efficiency solar cells
( 40%+). It needs a boost and capitalization to get off the ground.

Beaverton firm will produce cheaper quantum dots | Oregon Business News - OregonLive.com

A roof with this kind of solar, an electric, or hybrid electric with 60 miles range on electric, would put us back in the range of being able to supply, as a nation, most of the oil that we use. And, as individuals, put us in the position of being both consumers and producers of power.

This requires that net metering be the law over the whole nation, no exceptions, both commercial and residential.

It would not take long for a solar installation with the next generation of solar cells to pay for itself if you were powering your home and vehicles off of it.

There are people that have been doing that since 1994, driving Toyota RAV4EV SUVs.

 

[Big Fitz]

A thought occurred to me.

Amazing!

What possible reason is there to go green?

Evereything from energy independence, global warming, and the health of the citizens of this nationb.

It used to mean that you believed in preventing hunting, farming and fishing depletion, which still are considered rational points of view.

Considered rational now, fought tooth and nail by the Conservatives of the time that did now want the government telling them what to do.

It dealt with things like pollution control like stopping 'love canals' and acid rain.

I was alive and reading the controversy on acid rain at the time the 'Cap and Trade' emissions rules were established. Same arguements that are at present being used against the 'Cap and Trade' for CO2.

And there were a bunch of people that denied that pollution had anything to do with the Love Canal medical problems.

But now... really. What does this even represent?

Consider now that Climate Change/Anthropogenic Global Warming has been shown to be the result of statistical manipulation by frauds and political opportunists, doesn't this kind of invalidate 95% of the reason for any push to be 'green'?

Consider that you have just told a lie. Whether willfully or out of profound ignorance is up to you to decide.

I have seen up close and personal, the glacial retreat and disappearing snowfields in the Cascades, Blues, Sierras, and Rocky Mountains.

The pictures of the polar ice caps are online for all to see.

Biologists are seeing species that have moved hundreds of miles further north, and south, in the southern hemisphere, than they have ever been observed before.

Even Roy Spencer's graphs show a rapidly increasing temperature over the last 50 years.

None of this is statistical manipulation. Ice caps and glaciers don't give a damn about statistics.

Oh sure, you have idiots out there who still believe we're going to run out of oil next week (set your always receding point of depletion to wherever) but find after find keeps proving them wrong too. Peak oilers just can't seem to accept that a bumblebee can fly despite why it shouldn't be able to according to their understanding.

Hell no, we will not run out of oil. As demand increases, price increases, and that makes previously expensive methods of recovery economical. However, is that the direction we want to go in?

Who controls the bulk of the oil? Not us. The only friendly nation that has major reserves is Canada. The rest of the oil we get by sending money to petro-dictators.

Why not switch to energy sources that are right here in the US? By use of wind, solar, geo-thermal, and nuclear, we can power our homes and transportation with energy we make ourselves.

So really, what sane person actually believes that there are any benefits to going green?

Anyone that is sane, and not an ideologically driven fool.

All I can see is that it is social engineering for the sake of centralized power over people's lives and to shove society on to inefficient and less successful technology than what currently exists.

All you can see is what you are spoon fed by drugged out radio jocks.

All this based on the skeleton of the corpse of rational conservation policy that was long abandoned in the 1960's for this current radicalism.

The radicalism of the 1960's finally gave our citizens of color real citizenship in our nation. Without that 'radicalism' Jim Crow would still rule in half of this nation.

Plus aren't these the same kind of people who believe that the world is overcrowded (utter crap) and we should kill off a few billion 'just to keep the balance'?

Hard to believe that there are people as ignorant as you. Yes, the world is overcrowded. There are too many people for the limited resources of this planet to give them all a reasonable standard of living.

As for your drivel about killing off a few billion of them, that is exactly what people like you are proposing to do by ignoring what the climate is trying to tell us about the level of the
GHGs.

Balance of what, we don't really know as we've shown even now we have lots of excess capacity to produce food, with the technology to allow even more people to live well on this world.

So really. Why bother going green?

It has been shown that many forms of life get along without a brain, so it is obvious that you believe it is totally unneccessary for you to use the one that you have.

Right now, we are mining water on every continent on earth, other than Antarctica. And many of the mines are about to run out, as the infilling of the aquifers is orders of magnitudes less than the withdrawal of the water for agriculture. When that water is gone, so is the agriculture.

On every continent, farmland is every day being paved over for cities, by the square mile per day. And here in the state, Conservatives fight zoning tooth and nail.

At present, the food reserves in the world are dwindling, and have been for years.

When there are no reserves, that means any kind of disaster, manmade or natural, will result in hundreds of thousands to millions starving.

I was alive and reading the controversy on acid rain at the time the 'Cap and Trade' emissions rules were established. Same arguements that are at present being used against the 'Cap and Trade' for CO2.

Name one living being that exhales Sulfur Dioxide. Not similar. There is no proof that man-made carbon dioxide is harming the environment OR causing any change to the weather. Liars and criminals are not valid sources.

Consider that you have just told a lie. Whether willfully or out of profound ignorance is up to you to decide.

Really...? And who's just been caught committing, and conspiring to commit fraud? Ohh that's right, the East Anglia University Climate Research Unit, and their allies at Penn State and NASA. Not to mention that the IPCC has admitted they neither peer reviewed sources for glacier melting and rainforest depletion AS WELL AS taking information from activists, and students using non-scientific anecdotal 'evidence' as hard science truth.

Smells like you're the one fulla shit Crocks.

The pictures of the polar ice caps are online for all to see.

Except for those showing any growth. Those are conveniently missing.

Hell no, we will not run out of oil. As demand increases, price increases, and that makes previously expensive methods of recovery economical. However, is that the direction we want to go in?

Well being a peaker is one thing I won't hold against you as well then. Is fossil fuel the direction we want to go? Yes. You need to justify the superiority of another EQUAL FUNCTIONALITY energy to be considered worthy to replace it. Change is not the default option. Improvement in civilization (bigger, better, faster, stronger) is what matters, now how you feel. Show me the numbers that a green energy source is bigger, better, faster stronger, and CHEAPER... and I'll change in a heart beat. Till then, I'm good.

BTW, prices are falling because demand has fallen thanks to your god P-BO's depression. It was just going to be W's Recession till the last budget he put out.

Biologists are seeing species that have moved hundreds of miles further north, and south, in the southern hemisphere, than they have ever been observed before.

And this is a bad thing why?

Who controls the bulk of the oil? Not us. The only friendly nation that has major reserves is Canada. The rest of the oil we get by sending money to petro-dictators.

Why not switch to energy sources that are right here in the US? By use of wind, solar, geo-thermal, and nuclear, we can power our homes and transportation with energy we make ourselves.

Canada and Mexico are Petro-dictators, eh senor? Do you KNOW where most of our oil comes from? We could produce it domestically. You willing to get the fuck out of the way and drill where we know it is in ANWR, Gulf Coast, Mountain states/Plains states and off California?

Anyone that is sane, and not an ideologically driven fool.

At least you know you're an insane ideologue. Admitting you have a problem is half the battle.

The radicalism of the 1960's finally gave our citizens of color real citizenship in our nation. Without that 'radicalism' Jim Crow would still rule in half of this nation.

BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA!!!! >GASP< IRRELEVANT HAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!!
What a fucking moron. Why not say what you really believe? Without radical commie fucks there'd still be slavery? Utter bullshit. This means nothing in this discussion. You just wanna take shots cause you're exposed as a complete idiot and your religion is based on lies.

Hard to believe that there are people as ignorant as you.

Sorry, could you put down the mirror and start talking to me and not your reflection?

Yes, the world is overcrowded. There are too many people for the limited resources of this planet to give them all a reasonable standard of living.

Ahhhh and we get to it. Kill those who disagree with you. Gotcha. Ain't you just the paragon of liberal tolerance? If there are too many people in the world, I suggest you be the bigger man and leave first. The rest of us will be along presently. psycho.

As for your drivel about killing off a few billion of them, that is exactly what people like you are proposing to do by ignoring what the climate is trying to tell us about the level of the

Utter bullshit. Apparently you don't recall that mankind came to supremacy (if science is to be believed) during the ice ages. We thrived rather well when it was hot too. As a matter of fact, we've always done BETTER when it's been hot.

It has been shown that many forms of life get along without a brain, so it is obvious that you believe it is totally unneccessary for you to use the one that you have.

Yes, but you, sir, are a modern medical miracle. Imagine! You can survive paralyzed from the neck up!

On every continent, farmland is every day being paved over for cities, by the square mile per day. And here in the state, Conservatives fight zoning tooth and nail.

And? So? We still produce more food than ever before. Better living through chemistry and farming techniques. We used to have about 50% of our population farming. Now we get along fabulously with less than 2%. What good is fallow land?

At present, the food reserves in the world are dwindling, and have been for years.

And why perchance is that? Could it have something to do with fucking around with ethanol and bio diesel? I can't remember, if it's the right percentage or not, but 25% of all corn currently goes to energy production. And yet we can't even break 10% of our total need with it. Because of this, we don't have the corn to export anymore. Huh. I wonder if there's a connection??? Don't shit on my cupcake and tell me it's frosting.

When there are no reserves, that means any kind of disaster, manmade or natural, will result in hundreds of thousands to millions starving.

I thought in your mind that was a good thing. Ohhhh! I get it. It's only a good thing if YOU are not going to be affected. Now I gotcha.

You're an idiot, and you need to stop pretending you are an authority on climate, the environment, energy, economics or society. I am not an expert, but I understand what's going on much more than you.

 

[Old Rocks]

Fucking dumb, Fritz.

Bates et al. -- Sulfur Emissions to the Atmosphere from Natural Sources

 

[Big Fitz]

Hey, I'm a big enough man to admit when I didn't know something... unlike you little girl.

I'd never heard of anything that expired Sulfur Dioxide before, because I don't waste my time worshiping college professors on tenure, and pretending I'm an authority.

Of course, this doesn't invalidate any of my other dissection of your insane rantings either.