Why is gender-nonconformity bad? Alternatively, why must one's gender align with their sex?

[yumegari]

Transgenderism is no different than pedophilia, bestiality and many other things rooted in whackadoodleism. They are all self taught / learned deviance related to sexual acts and nothing more.

Pedophilia and bestiality lead to the harm of others. Transgenderism doesn't. Massive difference. There's nothing wrong with deviance as long as it doesn't result in the harm of others.

Many people get the 'urge' to do things that are unconventional and maybe e

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ven unlawful, many pursue the negative attention they get for looking unconventional...BUT most practice self discipline, something we all learned by third grade, we fight these urges, we don't act on them knowing they are unconventional and or unlawful....simple shit.

Sure, you can practice self-discipline. Why should you in this case? Not all things we discipline out of ourselves, and I see no reason why this should be one of them.

All unified, high functioning, prosperous, first world societies establish normalities.....

100%. Standards are good. They exist in every society to have ever existed, and they should always exist. I'm arguing about whether or not this specific thing should be a standard.

Remember, there is nothing the Left hates more than standards and expectations....ANYTHING that does, will or can thwart the American normal they are behind 100%.

I'm not a leftist, and I support standards and expectations.

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Psychological evaluation on such a scale is polyannish at best making it unrealistic outside of academic musings.

20% of US adults have received some form of mental health treatment in the past 12 months. The transgender population makes up far less than 20%. How is this not realistic?

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Psychological traits should not be considered when identifying male and female.

And usually they are not.

I never said psychological traits are part of how we identify male and females, they're part of how we conceive of males and females once we've identified them. That is part of the basis for my argument.

The pelvis tells the story. Distinct features adapted for childbearing distinguish adult females from males. Other bones and the skull also have features that can indicate sex, though less reliably. In young children, these sex-related features are less obvious and more difficult to interpret. Subtle sex differences are detectable in younger skeletons, but they become more defined following puberty and sexual maturation.

100%. I'm with you in this one. Always was.

This "gender" talk has nothing to do with reality. Really.

It's all made up bs, 100% of it.

How is this "gender" talk unrelated with reality? How is it made up? I'm curious.

I don't think that's what is being called out at all.

What's being called out is the effort to make everyone go along with their fantasy.

I didn't make any effort to make everyone else go along with their identity. I said it's irrational not to. That was my argument.

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Suicides are relevant because people that are mentally ill and unaccepting of who they are have higher rates of suicide.

Suicide rates vary based on a lot of metrics. Mental illness definitely is an influencing factor. However, most often mental illness causes higher suicide rates for no reason intrinsic to the mental illness. Those that are caringly accommodated by those around them and offered the help they need don't commit suicide at anywhere near the same rate.

Anecdotal, but I've met plenty of gender-nonconforming people that are quite happy with themselves, actually. Purely because they've made a transition, and those around them have respected that. This doesn't change the fact that there are those that are unhappy with themselves, but the most reliable treatment for that is a mix of therapy, both psychological and hormonal, and for some, gender reassignment surgery, though not everyone desires such a thing.

You can put all the lipstick on that pig you want, that won't change reality or nature.

So how does any of this go against reality or nature?

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I don't care. Just stop trying to shove it down my throat.

I didn't try to shove it down your throat. And I don't support shoving it down your throat. I am simply seeking a respectful debate on the matter, since I still have yet to find a solid, rationally-consistent argument for why gender-nonconformity is any of what people claim it is. Others might try to shove it down your throat, someone might try to shove their opinion down my throat. That's not what I'm doing, and that's not what I intend to do.

 

[Wild Bill Kelsoe]

yumegari

YOU might not, but the LBGTQXYZ community does try to shove it down our throats.

We've been told to accept it, or else.

 

[Ringel05]

Pedophilia and bestiality lead to the harm of others. Transgenderism doesn't. Massive difference. There's nothing wrong with deviance as long as it doesn't result in the harm of others.

Sure, you can practice self-discipline. Why should you in this case? Not all things we discipline out of ourselves, and I see no reason why this should be one of them.

100%. Standards are good. They exist in every society to have ever existed, and they should always exist. I'm arguing about whether or not this specific thing should be a standard.

I'm not a leftist, and I support standards and expectations.

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20% of US adults have received some form of mental health treatment in the past 12 months. The transgender population makes up far less than 20%. How is this not realistic?

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I never said psychological traits are part of how we identify male and females, they're part of how we conceive of males and females once we've identified them. That is part of the basis for my argument.

100%. I'm with you in this one. Always was.

How is this "gender" talk unrelated with reality? How is it made up? I'm curious.

I didn't make any effort to make everyone else go along with their identity. I said it's irrational not to. That was my argument.

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Suicide rates vary based on a lot of metrics. Mental illness definitely is an influencing factor. However, most often mental illness causes higher suicide rates for no reason intrinsic to the mental illness. Those that are caringly accommodated by those around them and offered the help they need don't commit suicide at anywhere near the same rate.

Anecdotal, but I've met plenty of gender-nonconforming people that are quite happy with themselves, actually. Purely because they've made a transition, and those around them have respected that. This doesn't change the fact that there are those that are unhappy with themselves, but the most reliable treatment for that is a mix of therapy, both psychological and hormonal, and for some, gender reassignment surgery, though not everyone desires such a thing.

So how does any of this go against reality or nature?

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I didn't try to shove it down your throat. And I don't support shoving it down your throat. I am simply seeking a respectful debate on the matter, since I still have yet to find a solid, rationally-consistent argument for why gender-nonconformity is any of what people claim it is. Others might try to shove it down your throat, someone might try to shove their opinion down my throat. That's not what I'm doing, and that's not what I intend to do.

How are you going to make all of them comply? Use force? You appear to be approaching this from the cloistered academia bubble, not including the human variable. Social theory is all well and good for esoteric discussion but has little value and little application in the real world.

 

[DukeU]

I never said psychological traits are part of how we identify male and females, they're part of how we conceive of males and females once we've identified them. That is part of the basis for my argument.

I have become confused on what your argument actually is at this point.

But, my opinion continues to be, people can live how they wish and can identify however they wish.

That doesn't mean I have to go along with them.

 

[DukeU]

How is this "gender" talk unrelated with reality? How is it made up? I'm curious.

It's based on feelings.

 

[DukeU]

I didn't make any effort to make everyone else go along with their identity. I said it's irrational not to. That was my argument.

That's your opinion.

I think it's very rational to live in reality.


ra·tion·al
/ˈraSH(ə)n(ə)l/
adjective

• 1.based on or in accordance with reason or logic:"I'm sure there's a perfectly rational explanation"

 

[yumegari]

yumegari

YOU might not, but the LBGTQXYZ community does try to shove it down our throats.

We've been told to accept it, or else.

Well it just so happens that I've met plenty of people within the LGBT+ community, and none of them have tried to shove anything down my throat. I'm not sure why, maybe it's because I'm just basically courteous. But what everyone else does is quite irrelevant to the argument I'm making here, really.

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How are you going to make all of them comply? Use force? You appear to be approaching this from the cloistered academia bubble, not including the human variable. Social theory is all well and good for esoteric discussion but has little value and little application in the real world.

I can see your point, actually. At least for the first part. However, if we want to look at it in practicality, look at the human element, here's the practical outcome of gender identity protection laws:

No noticeable increase in bathroom rape.

A number of cities and states have allowed this for quite some time, and interviews have been done with law enforcement in those areas. There's been no increase in bathroom rape.

I think the explanation might be simple enough. Even if you have no laws protecting gender identity, any guy can crossdress and walk into a bathroom and do the same things he'd be able to do given gender identity protection laws.

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I have become confused on what your argument actually is at this point.

But, my opinion continues to be, people can live how they wish and can identify however they wish.

That doesn't mean I have to go along with them.

I agree. 100%.

It's based on feelings.

Where I disagree is that this has anything to do with feelings. All I'm seeing here is that every argument against gender-nonconformity is based on feelings.

That's your opinion.

It's an opinion I substantiated. What's your counter?

I think it's very rational to live in reality.

ra·tion·al
/ˈraSH(ə)n(ə)l/
adjective

• 1.based on or in accordance with reason or logic:"I'm sure there's a perfectly rational explanation"

How does any of this not comport with reality, out of curiosity? Post #93 in this thread and I'm still waiting for that.

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You are pathetic

Oh? Why's that?

You are a sicko obsessed with your genitals.

Hmm. I don't know about that. I don't particularly care about my genitals, or anyone's genitals for that matter. I'm gender-conforming, personally. But even those that are gender-nonconforming, most of them don't particularly care about genitals, from my experience. In fact, I'm sort of making an argument against the emphasis on genitalia when making sense of the world. If someone is one sex or another, that shouldn't confine their gender, since gender is not restricted by sex.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

I sure have been

I have become confused on what your argument actually is at this point.

But, my opinion continues to be, people can live how they wish and can identify however they wish.

That doesn't mean I have to go along with them.

I resent that, Duke. You see, for my entire life I have felt like I am a Royal trapped in the body of a commoner and I really cannot abide by your unwillingness to refer to me as "your highness"".

 

[Ringel05]

Well it just so happens that I've met plenty of people within the LGBT+ community, and none of them have tried to shove anything down my throat. I'm not sure why, maybe it's because I'm just basically courteous. But what everyone else does is quite irrelevant to the argument I'm making here, really.

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I can see your point, actually. At least for the first part. However, if we want to look at it in practicality, look at the human element, here's the practical outcome of gender identity protection laws:

No noticeable increase in bathroom rape.

A number of cities and states have allowed this for quite some time, and interviews have been done with law enforcement in those areas. There's been no increase in bathroom rape.

I think the explanation might be simple enough. Even if you have no laws protecting gender identity, any guy can crossdress and walk into a bathroom and do the same things he'd be able to do given gender identity protection laws.

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I agree. 100%.

Where I disagree is that this has anything to do with feelings. All I'm seeing here is that every argument against gender-nonconformity is based on feelings.

It's an opinion I substantiated. What's your counter?

How does any of this not comport with reality, out of curiosity? Post #93 in this thread and I'm still waiting for that.

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Oh? Why's that?

Hmm. I don't know about that. I don't particularly care about my genitals, or anyone's genitals for that matter. I'm gender-conforming, personally. But even those that are gender-nonconforming, most of them don't particularly care about genitals, from my experience. In fact, I'm sort of making an argument against the emphasis on genitalia when making sense of the world. If someone is one sex or another, that shouldn't confine their gender, since gender is not restricted by sex.

Like I said it's a concern of mine and even if there has been no current appreciable increase in bathroom rapes doesn't negate the possibility of a future increase. As for gender protection laws........ Allowing coed access to bathrooms is a bit of a stretch which doesn't take into account the rights of women who take issue with biologically male individuals utilizing the same restrooms they are using. Don't they have the right to biological gender "privacy"?

 

[Ringel05]

I sure have been
I resent that, Duke. You see, for my entire life I have felt like I am a Royal trapped in the body of a commoner and I really cannot abide by your unwillingness to refer to me as "your highness"".

"We", you forgot to use the royal "we"..........

 

[yumegari]

Like I said it's a concern of mine and even if there has been no current appreciable increase in bathroom rapes doesn't negate the possibility of a future increase.

So why would it suddenly increase? If we've had these laws for years or longer in a number of places, why would a sudden increase ever take place?

As for gender protection laws........ Allowing coed access to bathrooms is a bit of a stretch which doesn't take into account the rights of women who take issue with biologically male individuals utilizing the same restrooms they are using. Don't they have the right to biological gender "privacy"?

I don't know how many women feel uncomfortable with that, I honestly cannot find any statistics on it. But given that women are the biggest supporters of these sorts of social policies, I can't imagine it'd be overwhelmingly high.

Even so, no, people choose to use public restrooms. I'll be honest, I don't like some of the people I see when I walk into public restrooms. Some of them look like they're going to murder me, others look like they want to tie me up and commit unspeakable acts. There's no right of mine they're inflicting on by entering the bathrooms and doing their business, and I have no right to impose my discomfort on them when they don't tangibly pose any more of a threat to me than any other group.

 

[JohnDB]

A homeless bum night entertain the notion that he is having an exemplary life and a wonderful person...that people love him so much they just give him money.
And he can even entertain the notion that he is the CEO of a famous international corporation.
When the truth is that he lives in a cardboard box and is a menace to society. And the second he walks through the door of a corporate headquarters he gets bent out of shape and sues...

That's transgender in a nutshell.

 

[yumegari]

A homeless bum night entertain the notion that he is having an exemplary life and a wonderful person...that people love him so much they just give him money.
And he can even entertain the notion that he is the CEO of a famous international corporation.
When the truth is that he lives in a cardboard box and is a menace to society. And the second he walks through the door of a corporate headquarters he gets bent out of shape and sues...

That's transgender in a nutshell.

No, those two things are really quite unrelated. And there's no slippery slope involved.

 

[DukeU]

Where I disagree is that this has anything to do with feelings

Is it based on facts?

 

[yumegari]

Is it based on facts?

Yes.

 

[Ringel05]

So why would it suddenly increase? If we've had these laws for years or longer in a number of places, why would a sudden increase ever take place?

I don't know how many women feel uncomfortable with that, I honestly cannot find any statistics on it. But given that women are the biggest supporters of these sorts of social policies, I can't imagine it'd be overwhelmingly high.

Even so, no, people choose to use public restrooms. I'll be honest, I don't like some of the people I see when I walk into public restrooms. Some of them look like they're going to murder me, others look like they want to tie me up and commit unspeakable acts. There's no right of mine they're inflicting on by entering the bathrooms and doing their business, and I have no right to impose my discomfort on them when they don't tangibly pose any more of a threat to me than any other group.

Why would it suddenly increase? Don't know, people are people which is why I used the caveat "possibility". You are not everyone and while you claim women are the biggest supporters what is the demographic? What percentage of women support this? ten percent? Twenty percent? Sixty percent?
When responding keep in mind the true adage "lies, damn lies and statistics....."

 

[Meathead]

Only two.....1 and 2.....

Male and female.

Yeah, sex is binary and established at conception.

 

[DukeU]

It's an opinion I substantiated. What's your counter?

Substantiated with what? More opinions. LOL

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Gender is biological. Period.
A man born with gender dysphoria is still a man. And always will be.
Having said that, I have no problem whatsoever addressing him as a female. They deserve that.

Having said that - a crossdresser is not a trans. Never will be. Wearing female clothes doesn't change your gender.
Getting sexually aroused by wearing panties does not merit society having to go along with their fetish.
Gay men who are effeminate, are not trans. They do not merit society being forced to go along with their sexual preference. They are, and always will be, gay.... men.

Transgenderism/Sexual Dysphoria is real. But it is exceedingly rare. Extremely rare.
They deserve to be treated fairly and like the sex they identify as.
Everyone else is playing out a sexual fetish. Society should not be forced to play along with it.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

"We", you forgot to use the royal "we"..........

We are not amused.

Actually, we are, but we have our image to uphold, you know.