Why is Building the Wall Wrong?

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

It isn't possible for that to be a lie, moron. It's an opinion, and it's far more credible than yours. The theory that foreigners have a right to emigrate here couldn't be more idiotic.

WTF are you talking about? This country was founded by emigrating foreigners. As an American, we believe in the rule of law. Requesting asylum is codified in international law. Not respecting the law, is not being an American.

Why exactly did they choose for themselves NOT to stay with any other nation they entered in their path, and live there rather than travel on to the United States?

We're supposed to be the land of opportunity. I guess we're not the nation we once claimed to be.

Are parents responsible for what happens to their children when they venture through several nations with their only goal to enter the United States?

Are parents responsible for this inhuman separation policy?

Parents are responsible for the health of their kids, with their choice to travel through multiple nations.. any of which they could have chosen to live.

You forgot that.the United States is a nation of immigration laws. That land of opportunity applies to those immigrants who obey our Federal Immigration Laws and enter “legally”.

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

Iraq under Saddam invaded a neighboring nation Kuwait, which first brought United States troops to Iraq in response. Iraq also still harbors terrorists who engage against the United States in supporting terrorist attacks.

Syria used chemical weapons on its own people which the nations condemned and the United States responded.

Now United Nations (historically) have shown they don’t enforce their own sanctioned policies. IF the United Nations performed the role they were initially formed to do in the first place, the United States would not be the nation to solely enforce the UNs role FOR them. The United Nations, other than to be a bureaucracy of “talks” and bickering disagreements, demonstrate through their actions that they have no real enforcement backbone... no proven authority to uphold and follow through with their own sanctions against violating nations.

Since this is completely off topic, I will be brief:

• we did not invade Iraq over Kuwait
• Hussein harboring terrorists has been completely debunked
• US backed rebels were the ones who used the gas
• we have no right acting unilaterally in lieu of UN resolutions

We had multiple nations condemn and were involved in the war against Iraq, over the invasion of Kuwait - this is historic FACT

As far as the UN (being brief) .... The United Nations doesn’t enforce their resolutions

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

we have no right acting unilaterally in lieu of UN resolutions

You have a strange list of rights. We have no right to enforce UN resolutions, but foreigners have a right to enter our country illegally.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

We're supposed to be the land of opportunity. I guess we're not the nation we once claimed to be.

We aren't?

The United States of America allows a million people a year to become citizens. We hand out over 11,000 VISA's a year, plus we allow people to make money here to take home to their country via permits. What other nation even comes close to our generosity when it comes to sharing our land with people who are not from this country?

Even for those who break our laws, once they are here, their children are entitled to medical care, shelter and even food. But we're not the nation we claimed to be?

Are parents responsible for this inhuman separation policy?

Let's see, you are going to take your child through a dangerous trek. There is a good chance they will be kidnapped and used as slaves or prostitutes or even murdered. The place you're going to is known for separating parents from their children during an asylum process. Who's fault is that if not the parents?

 

[danielpalos]

we need to abolish our alleged wars on crime, drugs, and terror if we need a wall.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Sure we are. We're discussing immigrants and guest workers. The reason there are so many "illegals" here is because the laws limiting entry are too restrictive. If we changed that, if we made it easier for immigrants and workers to enter the country legally, we could focus on the remaining "illegals" knowing that they were up to no good.

As it is, you have little sympathy for the crackdown on "illegals" because people know that most of them are just trying to feed their families.

Then let them feed their families at home. Surrendering is never a winning strategy. It's an admission of failure.

Having people come here to make money and take it back home might not be devastating now, but this economy won't last forever. Democrats will be in charge of Congress next week and then we may see harsh changes.

So what about these people wanting to feed their families when our people want to feed theirs? Isn't it bad enough we've lowered pay scales by allowing these people to come here? Now we are going to give them priority over our own people?

What you are neglecting is that most of the people that are in the county illegally will still be in the country even if you build a wall and even if it's successful. That is not going change till the immigration laws are changed The size of the illegal immigrant population will not decrease significantly because undocumented immigrants stay where most people with work permits do return home. Also, the flow of people with entry visas will continue and many of those will become undocumented by overstay their visas.

Lastly, we need these people today and we're going to need them a lot more as our workforce shrinks in the 21st century.

Exactly. Corporatists on both sides will keep importing immigrants to fill the jobs and for growth. So building a wall won’t make wages go up because they’ll keep flooding the market with low skilled workers.

Then those corporations would not only be guilty of hiring these people, but complicit in breaking our immigration laws as well unless they bring them here legally.

They will. And they’ll convince us we need them. And before wages go up because of supply and demand.

As a business owner do you want to raise wages or flood the market with workers?

Then what about after the trump Recession gets here?

You mean the Trump recession that's been coming for the last two years? Credit card companies are reporting a 5% increase in holiday shopping this year. That's the strongest holiday purchases in 6 years. 850 billion dollars to be more accurate.

I'm not against anything that will contribute to the security of our country and stop the invasion of foreigners that come here to break our laws.

 

[task0778]

we need to abolish our alleged wars on crime, drugs, and terror if we need a wall.

Bullshit. A wall on the southern border would help to reduce the inflow of illegals, which in turn helps combat crime, drugs, and terrorism.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

No one killed anyones children. They got sick from their parents neglect and died.

.

Well, I have to admit, I was wrong; I thought you would've blamed it on Crooked Hillary.

Why exactly did they choose for themselves NOT to stay with any other nation they entered in their path, and live there rather than travel on to the United States?

Are parents responsible for what happens to their children when they venture through several nations with their only goal to enter the United States?

The better question is what would our authorities do to an American parent or parents that exposed their children to the same dangers these folks expose their children to? Their kids would be taken away from them and the parents facing charges and likely imprisoned.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Wrong again, moron. Except for one or two, every person involved in founding this country was born here.

Well, if you go back far enough in the DNA tree, even the people you claim founded this country emigrated here over the Bering Sea. So we're nothing but a country of foreigners.

So what's your point? Because hundreds of years ago people came here and created a country, that means any foreigner who wants to come here should be allowed to?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

So who's killing their children?

Trump Administration separation policy and all his minions that support it.

So you have a link to this child killing policy? I never knew children die from being separated from their parents. After all, our children don't die when we send the parents of children to prison or they join the military to go overseas to war.

 

[danielpalos]

we need to abolish our alleged wars on crime, drugs, and terror if we need a wall.

Bullshit. A wall on the southern border would help to reduce the inflow of illegals, which in turn helps combat crime, drugs, and terrorism.

you can't be serious with tax cut economics. they take serious effort.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

When democrats took control of goverment in 2008, immigration was a non-issue for most Americans. It was healthcare and the economy and that is what democrats focused on.

Thanks to Donald Trump he has created a crisis in immigration where none exist. If democrats have sufficient control of government in 2020, there will be real immigration reform. It could come in the next two years with a democratic House. Both democrats and republicans in congress agree on a number immigration issues and Donald's only real interest in immigration is building a wall. Democrats will be willing to give Trump his wall for the right kind of immigration bill.

No they will not. Piglosi said it herself, the wall is totally off the table. Nothing is being traded for it.

Immigration has always been a problem. Perhaps you on the left could care less, but for the rest of us, a real problem. Donald Trump didn't create a problem, he addressed the problem. In fact that's what led to his victory against Hil-Liar. Every other candidate spoke the same way about illegals. Blah, blah, blah, Blah, blah, blah. Only Trump was transcending in what he said. He told us what we wanted to hear: We are going to stop illegals from entering this country. We will build a wall. And that's why in light of our congressional loss, Trump is addressing the issue much more seriously.

There are far more affordable, faster, and more effective methods: Make E-Verify mandatory and put some teeth in it.

Illegal immigrant focused enforcement is stupid. Illegals are numerous, numbering in the tens of millions. They move. We don't know where they live. They may or may not be using their own names. And if we deport them, they can come back.

Use employer based focus.....the same way we focus our drug enforcement policy not on the users, but on the sellers and distributors. Employers make far more sense. They're public, they generally don't move, they're easy to find (most advertise!), they use their real names, and they're far less numerous.

Make the use of E-verify mandatory. Give any employer that doesn't use it 1 year in prison....including HR people and Hiring Managers. If an employer uses E-Verify and a perspective employee passes...and are later found to be illegal, the employer is free and clear. Employers only get in trouble if they don't use E-Verify.

The system already exists, is easy to use....so there's no ramp up or roll out. It takes a few minutes per employee and can be done online or over the phone. Merely make it mandatory, put some teeth behind it and give employers a 6 month grace period to bring their employees into compliance. You'd need a few dozen high profile prosecutions before employers got the message....and jobs for illegals dried up.

In comparison to their home countries, the US is usually expensive. With no work, they'll largely deport themselves. You could have the vast majority of the illegal immigration problem fixed in about a year. It would work and work well.

Utter horseshit. All your claims have been refuted in this forum 1000 times. The wall has been proven the most effective method for controlling illegal immigration.

Nope. And no, it hasn't.

A wall actually increases illegal immigration by making it more expensive to cross the border. Before a wall immigrants would come here, earn money, and then go home. There were entire seasonal work forces that would arrive from Mexico, help bring in a harvest of a particular crop, earn some money and go home. And come back the next year for the next harvest season.

Now people have to work for years to pay back the cost of crossing the border. Meaning they have to stay longer. And when they stay longer, they have more kids here, there is less incentive for them to go home.

Worse, about a third of illegals are folks who merely overstayed visas. Which walls do nothing to prevent.

Walls are expensive to make expensive to buy land for and even more expensive to maintain. They can be circumvented by anyone who really wants to. To quote Trump's own chief of staff,

"the bottom line is the fence doesn't stop anybody who really wants to get across. You go under, you go around, you go through it. And that's what the ranchers tell us, is that they don't need a fence."

Mick Mulvaney

Mick Mulvaney in 2015: Trump's views on border wall 'simplistic,' 'absurd and almost childish' - CNNPolitics

Nor does the fence keep them from coming back.

The E-Verify system works on all of those fronts. It eliminates the work that illegals come here for, or those overstaying their visas require in order to stay here. Compared to their home countries, the US is usually expensive. Stripped of the means of making a living, most would go home where its far cheaper.

The wall is orders of magnitude MORE expensive, takes years to build, is wildly expensive to maintain, is ineffective, doesn't address 1/3 or illegal immigrants at all, and actually increases the incentive for them to stay once they've arrived. Its a stupid proposal.

E-Verify is orders of magnitude LESS expensive, it is already in place, its maintenance costs are minimal (a website, phone line and paperwork), its very effective, it DOES address the 1/3 of illegal immigrants that the wall ignores, and it REDUCES the incentive for illegals to stay here. Its a smart proposal.

A wall will also increase the number illegal immigrants because the increased border security makes it harder for migrants to leave without being picked by immigration and getting back in the US is harder so once in they are here to stay.

You forgot continue on -

When those from south of the border are popping out babies here because they can't leave, it will significantly increase their numbers as citizens PLUS, at some point, federal judges will say that our current laws are a violation of the Eighth Amendment (as it keeps Americans separated from their families.)

So, you end up with a wall, but have to increase the numbers of incoming foreigners (and Hispanics are already an important demographic) so said wall is now a multi-Trillion dollar albatross.

Those who favor the wall are simply out of touch with reality. They want to keep people out that are already here AND constitute a significant part of the U.S. population. They cite China, but China does not allow non-Chinese to hold public office. It is over 92 percent Han Chinese. They cite the Israelis, but there is another country that is 81 percent all one people - Jews. About 62 percent of America is non-Hispanic whites. That is why I keep asking the build the wall guys if they get rid of the Hispanics with their wall, would they then ship blacks to Africa or deport the Muslims.

If the wall is to work, the U.S. must be like other countries that employ them. That means keeping those who are not all of one people out of positions of power - and our country WAS originally intended to be for white Christians. If you want to advocate for the wall, you have to answer the other relevant questions. We all have a Right to know what the America of tomorrow is.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

China / Hong Kong (early 1960s) - 32 km
Botswana / Zimbabwe 2003 - 500 km
Bulgaria / Turkey 2014 - 30 km
Chinese / Korean border fence (under construction) - 1,416 km
Macedonia / Greece barrier 2015 - 30 km
India / Myanmar barrier (under construction) - 1,624 km

Just the facts, and this is to name but a few. However, we are called to follow after other nations on how government faces health care? Yet a wall is immoral and racist, despite other nations around the globe seeing fit to do so against illegal immigration.

Explain that one to me. Anyone?

What is it you don't understand? Other nations have overbearing governments, bad laws and policies that violate individual liberty? Are you suggesting we follow their example?

Even Harry Reid saw the burden of illegals on our nation, and that was 1993. Look, liberals lost the cost argument on illegal immigration and now they are to lose on the nation’s border barrier argument.

I have no interest in the opinions of liberals, nor Harry Reid.

It's hilarious that you read the mental midgetry of some of these build the wall guys and they are ALWAYS quoting liberals and promoting communist nations in support of their talking points... All the while calling others lefties. You can't make this stuff up.

You actually think Greece, Turkey, Macedonia, and India are communist nations? Care to try that again?

Actually ... I always found it interesting when you have liberals that are so opposed to building the wall, throwing their support for an open border. Yet, when you inform the left that strict gun regulations simply does not work to lower gun violence in cities like Detroit or Baltimore, they then blame how easy it is for criminals to transport guns across the border. Talk about a paradox, I don’t believe the left has actually taken the time to completely think this through.

For what reason did those countries put up a wall?

To prevent the free flow of illegal immigration in their country.

Now tell me why do we have Federal Immigration Laws in this country? Define for me the term “National sovereignty”.. How does a nation achieve National sovereignty?

I'll give you a complete and honest answer once you do the same for me. For what reason did those countries erect a wall in the first place?

Let me help you out. I Googled this question with regards to China. Here is he answer:

"The Great Wall of China is a series of fortifications made of stone, brick, tamped earth, wood, and other materials, generally built along an east-to-west line across the historical northern borders of China to protect the Chinese statesand empires against the raids and invasions of the various nomadic groups of the Eurasian Steppe"

Great Wall of China - Wikipedia

Now give me some examples of walls and WHY they were built. We are not being raided or invaded. Like it or not, the people who come from south of the border are coming here because Americans are WILLINGLY doing business with them.

What short circuits in your brain that you do not understand that? Will your next response be to call me a lefty for acknowledging that simple fact of life? Well, let me ease your mind. It pisses me off to no end that our own brethren do not support one another and are in a mad dash to destroy America be being in alliances like the UN; giving foreigners easier access to our universities than to our own citizenry; that we destroy the posterity of our nation with inter-racial marriage, people marrying outside their family's faith, marrying those from foreign countries / cultures.

That is doing more to destroy your nation, culture and heritage than a silly ass wall. But, what make us different from all the nations on earth is that people have the Right to make their own personal decisions. That is the essence of Liberty. While I may be livid for the decisions my own countrymen make, I will never support an effort to take that Right away from them - even at the cost or detriment to me.

I will answer one question for you - to show you I'm sincere in having a two way conversation:

We have UNCONSTITUTIONAL immigration laws on the books for one reason and one reason only: It is the power of control. They serve no other purpose and if you want a few paragraphs proving their unconstitutionality, I'll include them IF you will answer my previous question to you.

 

[sealybobo]

Then let them feed their families at home. Surrendering is never a winning strategy. It's an admission of failure.

Having people come here to make money and take it back home might not be devastating now, but this economy won't last forever. Democrats will be in charge of Congress next week and then we may see harsh changes.

So what about these people wanting to feed their families when our people want to feed theirs? Isn't it bad enough we've lowered pay scales by allowing these people to come here? Now we are going to give them priority over our own people?

What you are neglecting is that most of the people that are in the county illegally will still be in the country even if you build a wall and even if it's successful. That is not going change till the immigration laws are changed The size of the illegal immigrant population will not decrease significantly because undocumented immigrants stay where most people with work permits do return home. Also, the flow of people with entry visas will continue and many of those will become undocumented by overstay their visas.

Lastly, we need these people today and we're going to need them a lot more as our workforce shrinks in the 21st century.

Exactly. Corporatists on both sides will keep importing immigrants to fill the jobs and for growth. So building a wall won’t make wages go up because they’ll keep flooding the market with low skilled workers.

Then those corporations would not only be guilty of hiring these people, but complicit in breaking our immigration laws as well unless they bring them here legally.

They will. And they’ll convince us we need them. And before wages go up because of supply and demand.

As a business owner do you want to raise wages or flood the market with workers?

Then what about after the trump Recession gets here?

You mean the Trump recession that's been coming for the last two years? Credit card companies are reporting a 5% increase in holiday shopping this year. That's the strongest holiday purchases in 6 years. 850 billion dollars to be more accurate.

I'm not against anything that will contribute to the security of our country and stop the invasion of foreigners that come here to break our laws.

No, you right wingers have been predicting a recession not us.

Obama gave us the longest economic expansion. Slow and steady.

I don't know when the next recession is going to happen. What I worry about is how a Trump administration would handle it.

 

[bripat9643]

A- Cost prohibitive
B- Won't work
C- It's racist
D- It would reduce those successfully crossing the border
E- None of the Above

The machine benefits by not having a wall. Business (Republicans) get their cheap labor and (Democrats) get the votes

You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours

There is no excuse for the Republicans not funding the wall.

-Geaux

Why is Building the Wall Wrong?

Why is posting a picture of a Klan march on wet trolley tracks in Wisconsin in December and claiming it's the Democratic convention in New York the previous summer wrong?

You are a major fucking idiot.

Yuh huh. Then what does that make you two morons who actually thought a few dozen Klan Klowns walking the wet December streets in Wisconsin was a summer political convention in New York?

Have you been studying that pic for 5 years? That's how long ago it was posted, snowflake. You're OCD.

 

[bripat9643]

Wrong again, moron. Except for one or two, every person involved in founding this country was born here.

Well, if you go back far enough in the DNA tree, even the people you claim founded this country emigrated here over the Bering Sea. So we're nothing but a country of foreigners.

That's true of every country on earth, except for maybe one in Africa.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

What you are neglecting is that most of the people that are in the county illegally will still be in the country even if you build a wall and even if it's successful. That is not going change till the immigration laws are changed The size of the illegal immigrant population will not decrease significantly because undocumented immigrants stay where most people with work permits do return home. Also, the flow of people with entry visas will continue and many of those will become undocumented by overstay their visas.

Lastly, we need these people today and we're going to need them a lot more as our workforce shrinks in the 21st century.

Exactly. Corporatists on both sides will keep importing immigrants to fill the jobs and for growth. So building a wall won’t make wages go up because they’ll keep flooding the market with low skilled workers.

Then those corporations would not only be guilty of hiring these people, but complicit in breaking our immigration laws as well unless they bring them here legally.

They will. And they’ll convince us we need them. And before wages go up because of supply and demand.

As a business owner do you want to raise wages or flood the market with workers?

Then what about after the trump Recession gets here?

You mean the Trump recession that's been coming for the last two years? Credit card companies are reporting a 5% increase in holiday shopping this year. That's the strongest holiday purchases in 6 years. 850 billion dollars to be more accurate.

I'm not against anything that will contribute to the security of our country and stop the invasion of foreigners that come here to break our laws.

No, you right wingers have been predicting a recession not us.

Obama gave us the longest economic expansion. Slow and steady.

I don't know when the next recession is going to happen. What I worry about is how a Trump administration would handle it.

I'd rather that problem be handled by a professional businessman than a community organizer.

 

[sealybobo]

Exactly. Corporatists on both sides will keep importing immigrants to fill the jobs and for growth. So building a wall won’t make wages go up because they’ll keep flooding the market with low skilled workers.

Then those corporations would not only be guilty of hiring these people, but complicit in breaking our immigration laws as well unless they bring them here legally.

They will. And they’ll convince us we need them. And before wages go up because of supply and demand.

As a business owner do you want to raise wages or flood the market with workers?

Then what about after the trump Recession gets here?

You mean the Trump recession that's been coming for the last two years? Credit card companies are reporting a 5% increase in holiday shopping this year. That's the strongest holiday purchases in 6 years. 850 billion dollars to be more accurate.

I'm not against anything that will contribute to the security of our country and stop the invasion of foreigners that come here to break our laws.

No, you right wingers have been predicting a recession not us.

Obama gave us the longest economic expansion. Slow and steady.

I don't know when the next recession is going to happen. What I worry about is how a Trump administration would handle it.

I'd rather that problem be handled by a professional businessman than a community organizer.

Yea he will just go bankrupt. That won't hurt him at all. You may suffer some pain however.

God I hope he ends social security. A truck driver should be counting on social security. I would love it if Trump renigged on the debt and just put the USA into bankruptsy.

You would support it. Dummy.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Then those corporations would not only be guilty of hiring these people, but complicit in breaking our immigration laws as well unless they bring them here legally.

They will. And they’ll convince us we need them. And before wages go up because of supply and demand.

As a business owner do you want to raise wages or flood the market with workers?

Then what about after the trump Recession gets here?

You mean the Trump recession that's been coming for the last two years? Credit card companies are reporting a 5% increase in holiday shopping this year. That's the strongest holiday purchases in 6 years. 850 billion dollars to be more accurate.

I'm not against anything that will contribute to the security of our country and stop the invasion of foreigners that come here to break our laws.

No, you right wingers have been predicting a recession not us.

Obama gave us the longest economic expansion. Slow and steady.

I don't know when the next recession is going to happen. What I worry about is how a Trump administration would handle it.

I'd rather that problem be handled by a professional businessman than a community organizer.

Yea he will just go bankrupt. That won't hurt him at all. You may suffer some pain however.

God I hope he ends social security. A truck driver should be counting on social security. I would love it if Trump renigged on the debt and just put the USA into bankruptsy.

You would support it. Dummy.

I would support phasing out SS. You can't tell people who put into the system their entire lives that they aren't gong to get what was promised. However you can restructure retirement for new generations entering the working world.

Trump owned or operated over 500 companies in his career. He filed bankruptcy only four times, and most of those was because of a bad economy when many companies were doing the same.

 

[OKTexas]

No one killed anyones children. They got sick from their parents neglect and died.

.

Well, I have to admit, I was wrong; I thought you would've blamed it on Crooked Hillary.

The bitch didn't drag those kids 2000 miles with inadequate food, water and medical treatment, the parents did.

.