Why I Am Not A Christian

[Newby]

Evil exists because human beings are fallible.

Well, agreed. But Sky Dancer, if God designed Mankind and he is infallible, why even bother creating us with such a defect?
I can see only one value to Evil -- it gives Mankind something to test themselves on, to stand up against and suffer to defeat. It creates a need among us for one another; but surely this could have been done some other way? We could have needed one another just for the shared joy of it, or to learn more about being Human.

You think there is an Infallible Creator-God and He/She created good and evil?

How would good be recognized or defined without evil?

 

[Sky Dancer]

We could call the absence of good a kind of evil I suppose.

 

[Newby]

We could call the absence of good a kind of evil I suppose.

I think we needed to understand what it is, see it, in order to make a choice. There's a book called The Shack by William P. Young that does a really good job of explaining the relationship of God and the existance of evil in the world.

TheShackBook.com

 

[CurveLight]

Well, agreed. But Sky Dancer, if God designed Mankind and he is infallible, why even bother creating us with such a defect?
I can see only one value to Evil -- it gives Mankind something to test themselves on, to stand up against and suffer to defeat. It creates a need among us for one another; but surely this could have been done some other way? We could have needed one another just for the shared joy of it, or to learn more about being Human.

You think there is an Infallible Creator-God and He/She created good and evil?

How would good be recognized or defined without evil?

If there was no evil there would be no need nor desire to have the label of "good."

 

[Madeline]

Cecille wrote:

I find it interesting that Mad can start off an entire thread by calling Christians "evil, sadistic fuckwhits [sic]", "nutters", etc., and then accuse someone ELSE of being hate-filled and evil merely because they - rather mildly, in fact - criticize HER and HER beliefs. I guess it's a good thing you didn't attack her beliefs at the same level she attacked others.

Hypocrisy much?

Here's what I actually wrote:

I was raised (in my early years) by two pinkos with VERY independent minds, and taught such things as how to read. When the folks were gone, I was raised in a Catholic orphanage. All religion, all the time, 24/7. I said the rosary every night and went to Confession every Saturday. I had Religious Instruction every day at school. So why didn't it stick?

The first thing I objected to was this need some folks seemed to have to have their asses kissed because they were Clergy. It didn't help that they were, almost to a person, sadistic, uncaring, evil fuckwhits. Ass kissing has just never been part of my skill set. I had a checkmark for "fails to show proper respect to Clergy" on my report card even single time for a decade -- and every time I would think "seems like the proper amount of respect to me -- ZERO."

This must be the tenth or eleventh time on this thread that Cecille has tried to twist what I said to deny -- or try to -- that my life experience or POV has any validity. Any NORMAL person reading this would feel compassion, and almost everyone by now must know, there was a terrible problem among Catholic Clergy in the era in which I was raised.

But Cecille cannot muster respect or even be truthful. She simply is so enraged at the idea that anyone would walk away from christianity, she cannot tolerate the dialogue that has grown up around this thread.

Tell me....does anyone reading her posts on this thread find Cecille's claim to be a christian at all plausible?

Cecille -- you need to print this thread and take it to your priest or pastor and ask him or her for guidance. Your words in defense of christianity are cruel, vicious lies and I cannot imagine any clergyman approving of them....if your faith has ANY value to you, you need to confront the inner demons that drive you to say such ugly things and get past them.

 

[Newby]

You think there is an Infallible Creator-God and He/She created good and evil?

How would good be recognized or defined without evil?

If there was no evil there would be no need nor desire to have the label of "good."

Perhaps evil is the absence of God?

 

[Madeline]

Human behavior is not a color wheel, on which we cannot perceive white unless we contrast it to black. The limited imagination I have, as a Human, allows me to conjecture that Humans could have struggled for knowledge and enlightenment and that would have been as interesting as their struggle with Evil.

What's the premise of the book you recommend, Newby?

I don't think God is ever absent; but I do think that some Human acts are so depraved, his presence feels remote. And I think a person's bad acts can accumulate to a tipping point beyond which, his Humanity and Divinity cannot be reclaimed. I think it is possible to do so much Evil, you lose your Humanity.

 

[Frank]

By the way, I don't belong to any organized religion but I singled out Christians because I have been treated to their irrationality somewhat more often. No Muslim or Jew or Buddist, etc. has ever prosletized to me.

From what I have read, it sounds more like your feelings toward the Catholic Church than Christianity as a whole. There are many different Christians who worship and conduct themselves in different ways than those of catholicism.

 

[CurveLight]

Maddy has repeatedly stated a belief that God exists so you are just proving yourself to be a fuxxing ***** whiny ass troll.

a. my discussion, currently, is with you, not maddy.

b. is this how christians speak?
"so you are just proving yourself to be a fuxxing ***** whiny ass troll"


so far you are proving yourself to be an ignorant moron who can't debate in a civilzed fassion.

Arguing with Curvey is like fighting a kid in the special ed class. No matter how quickly and decisively you win, Curvey is still retarded.

How bad does it suck Snitch *****? No matter how often you follow me around you get your punk ass smacked down regularly. Most people can see how ******* stoopid it was for you to complain about the OP....then post in the thread you whined about. But given your lack of observation skills I'm not surprised. You're so ******* blind you posted a youtube vid of an F4 on a rocket propelled track then claimed the flames were coming from the F4 engine that......was not even on. Lol....

 

[CurveLight]

How would good be recognized or defined without evil?

If there was no evil there would be no need nor desire to have the label of "good."

Perhaps evil is the absence of God?

That's been one of my perceptions for a while. Anything not in 100% communion with God is in Hell.

 

[Madeline]

Frank, I do not ladle all the sins of the RCC on to every christian -- I don't even blame every Catholic. But in deciding what to do about my spiritual life as an adult, I considered (and rejected) the possibility of joining another christian denomination. The whole shebang, from the Trinity to the Virgin Birth to the After-Life, just does not resonate one bit with me, and I would have only been acting out of fear instilled in me as a child. I happen to think cowardice is wrong.

I am at peace with my beliefs and choices. Sometimes, I wonder what it'd be like to have a "church family", but I think very few people who attend regularly have that sort of relationship with the rest of the congregation. I don't see why mutual support couldn't be had from any group of people, as long as everyone is willing.

I considered seriously converting to Judaism, because their beliefs seem to best match mine, but I was stymied by the complex rules for devote Jews and I couldn't answer when I asked myself "why?". I can not see the rationale behind worshiping God. Obeying him, trying to bring him into more of your life, turning to him when in need -- yes.

But why would God want or need Humans to worship him?

 

[Madeline]

blu, I agree with you. But I don't dismiss the beliefs some have about an After-Life as pointless defense mechanisms. I think some folks truly believe there is a parallel universe or alternate reality or whatnot where the egos of the living survive after their death.

I'm not sure why so many claim they believe this, or why so many seem to plan their entire lives around the belief. Why would knowing you survive death as some sort of ego have any bearing on deciding what is right and wrong while you are alive?

1. Some Buddhists say there is an afterlife--and it is in one of six realms of existence, hell realm, animal realm, preta realm, human realm and two god realms. These realms are debated as being states of mind more than actual places.
2. The ego and personality do not survive death. What is carried forward is habits, karma, qualities developed in the course of a lifetime.
3. Life is a continuum, moment to moment. Buddhists describe the dissolution of the elements at the time of dying.
4. If you think of the continuum of life, it isn't far fetched to see that we all have had many lives in one life. Our life as an embryo and fetus, our life as an infant and child, teenager, young adult and so on.


This is all just food for thought because in my case, this isn't a defense mechanism, I find it useful to contemplate death and dying in order to aspire to have a conscious lviing and dying process.

I do too, Sky Dancer. One of my conclusions has been that Death is not something to fear, especially as compared to extreme old age. Death seems to me to be the release from all life's struggles, and a blessing.

Do Buddists believe in reincarnation?

 

[Frank]

Frank, I do not ladle all the sins of the RCC on to every christian -- I don't even blame every Catholic. But in deciding what to do about my spiritual life as an adult, I considered (and rejected) the possibility of joining another christian denomination. The whole shebang, from the Trinity to the Virgin Birth to the After-Life, just does not resonate one bit with me, and I would have only been acting out of fear instilled in me as a child. I happen to think cowardice is wrong.]?

Many true Christians believe, worship, and practice not out of fear, but out of love and hope.

I am at peace with my beliefs and choices. Sometimes, I wonder what it'd be like to have a "church family", but I think very few people who attend regularly have that sort of relationship with the rest of the congregation. I don't see why mutual support couldn't be had from any group of people, as long as everyone is willing.

Understandable. However, belonging to a "congregation" is not a requirement. It can, however, provide support to others who have the same beliefs.

I considered seriously converting to Judaism, because their beliefs seem to best match mine, but I was stymied by the complex rules for devote Jews and I couldn't answer when I asked myself "why?". I can not see the rationale behind worshiping God. Obeying him, trying to bring him into more of your life, turning to him when in need -- yes.

But why would God want or need Humans to worship him.

Well, not being arrogant enough to "know" what God wants or needs, it can summized that, if man is created in his image and the basic want and need of people is to feel loved, then perhaps that gives some understanding as to why. But that is a serious shot in the dark for me to even imply such.

 

[Sky Dancer]

How would good be recognized or defined without evil?

If there was no evil there would be no need nor desire to have the label of "good."

Perhaps evil is the absence of God?

Well, as a Buddhist who doesn't believe in a creator God I may take exception to that, lol. On the other hand, I think all beings have the purity of Buddha nature within--even the Hitlers among us and that any and all can be ultimately purified. No one is condemned for all of eternity in Buddhism.

I tend to think of God in a Buddhist way that goes something like this: 'That which cannot be imagined or described, the Truth beyond conception".

I intuit a bit of what you mean about evil being the absence of God. When we forget our true nature we get in serious trouble. Hitler never knew he had Buddha nature, or in your terms, God within him.

 

[CurveLight]

Well I hadn't anticiated that defining Evil would pose a problem. A few gray areas maybe, but not the general idea. In the example I gave I had the ability to assist that young Mom and did not. I'd say that all by itself was an Evil thing. Then I preyed on her because I felt like being an asshole and she couldn't fight back. I'd say that was an Evil thing too.

The only thing I did right -- speak up for the kidlet -- was submerged in all that I did wrong.

Does that help any?

I don't think what you did was evil at all. It's even more than a little possible your assertiveness planted a seed to show just how far off the grid her behavior had slid.

So we are back to square one. The "general idea" of evil is mysterious. Is it Evil when a lion kills the cubs to mate with a female lion to pro-create new cubs? Is it evil for a spider to spin a nearly invisible trap for unsuspecting flies? So yes, a clear definition of evil is necessary to entertain theories on why it exists.

 

[CurveLight]

Frank, I do not ladle all the sins of the RCC on to every christian -- I don't even blame every Catholic. But in deciding what to do about my spiritual life as an adult, I considered (and rejected) the possibility of joining another christian denomination. The whole shebang, from the Trinity to the Virgin Birth to the After-Life, just does not resonate one bit with me, and I would have only been acting out of fear instilled in me as a child. I happen to think cowardice is wrong.

I am at peace with my beliefs and choices. Sometimes, I wonder what it'd be like to have a "church family", but I think very few people who attend regularly have that sort of relationship with the rest of the congregation. I don't see why mutual support couldn't be had from any group of people, as long as everyone is willing.

I considered seriously converting to Judaism, because their beliefs seem to best match mine, but I was stymied by the complex rules for devote Jews and I couldn't answer when I asked myself "why?". I can not see the rationale behind worshiping God. Obeying him, trying to bring him into more of your life, turning to him when in need -- yes.

But why would God want or need Humans to worship him?

How do you know God created us directly? With unknown life forms in the vast expanses of the universe how do you know we are not the creations of creatures created by creatures created by God?

 

[Sky Dancer]

Curve--

I wouldn't call any of those natural things you mentioned--the spider and the lion as evil.

Evil lurks in the hearts/ minds of human beings.

 

[blu]

How would good be recognized or defined without evil?

If there was no evil there would be no need nor desire to have the label of "good."

Perhaps evil is the absence of God?

then everything would be evil b/c there is no god

 

[Sky Dancer]

blu, I agree with you. But I don't dismiss the beliefs some have about an After-Life as pointless defense mechanisms. I think some folks truly believe there is a parallel universe or alternate reality or whatnot where the egos of the living survive after their death.

I'm not sure why so many claim they believe this, or why so many seem to plan their entire lives around the belief. Why would knowing you survive death as some sort of ego have any bearing on deciding what is right and wrong while you are alive?

1. Some Buddhists say there is an afterlife--and it is in one of six realms of existence, hell realm, animal realm, preta realm, human realm and two god realms. These realms are debated as being states of mind more than actual places.
2. The ego and personality do not survive death. What is carried forward is habits, karma, qualities developed in the course of a lifetime.
3. Life is a continuum, moment to moment. Buddhists describe the dissolution of the elements at the time of dying.
4. If you think of the continuum of life, it isn't far fetched to see that we all have had many lives in one life. Our life as an embryo and fetus, our life as an infant and child, teenager, young adult and so on.


This is all just food for thought because in my case, this isn't a defense mechanism, I find it useful to contemplate death and dying in order to aspire to have a conscious lviing and dying process.

I do too, Sky Dancer. One of my conclusions has been that Death is not something to fear, especially as compared to extreme old age. Death seems to me to be the release from all life's struggles, and a blessing.

Do Buddists believe in reincarnation?

This is a topic Buddhists debate. From all I've heard and contemplated 'something' is carried from lifetime to lifetime but it isn't an ego or personality as we know it. What goes on into the next life is karma--habits, tendencies, qualities.

Death can be a peaceful release or a terrifying ordeal. It all depends on preparation and karma.

 

[Liability]

a. my discussion, currently, is with you, not maddy.

b. is this how christians speak?
"so you are just proving yourself to be a fuxxing ***** whiny ass troll"


so far you are proving yourself to be an ignorant moron who can't debate in a civilzed fassion.

Arguing with Curvey is like fighting a kid in the special ed class. No matter how quickly and decisively you win, Curvey is still retarded.

How bad does it suck * * * *

How bad does it suck to be you?

Massively.

You are like the black hole of suckiosity.

You are unable and unwilling to be honest.

You say nothing of value at any time. Ever. You are all but universally ridiculed -- and rightly so.

And you can't even deliver an ad hominem without resorting to bald faced lies, and they all suck anyway even so.

Yes indeed. You do suck massively.