I see he's still stuck on stupid.
Life is something different from that bag of water he's talking about.
Use your head, accept what's right in front of you.
Why Evolution is a Fairytale for Grown-Ups
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Life is something different from that bag of water he's talking about.
Use your head, accept what's right in front of you.
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Professor Schopf has been a very valuable scientist in his field.
I will lay out my thinking after I finish his book.
Also, Schopf was the editor of the book and other scientists report in the chapters, on what are the origins of life.
The statement I posted is by this man.
Joan Oró - Wikipedia
Joan Oró i Florensa, 1st Marquess of Oró (Catalan pronunciation: [ʒuˈan uˈɾo]; 26 October 1923 – 2 September 2004) was a Spanish (Catalan) biochemist, whose research has been of importance in understanding the origin of life. Living in the United States for many years, he participated in several NASA missions, including the Apollo mission to the Moon and the Viking lander. He received the Oparin Medal for his contributions to the field of origins of life.
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No, I challenge the fundamental assumption.
You can't pin down the origin of life any more than you could pin down the origin of the universe.
That's because your definition of life is wrong, it's incorrect.
No one can define the boundary between life and non-life. That's because there isn't one.
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You agree with my book edited by Professor Schopf.
CrusaderFrank
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The Torah has the best explanation
"Let there be light"?
I'm well familiar with Oro.
Here is my response to Oro:
If you want to understand the beginning of CELLULAR life, study lipids.
A stable cell membrane is the primary prerequisite for cellular life. It provides the compartmentation that supports evolution. Without it, all you have is a bunch of chemical reactions.
Lipids in isolation tend to form micelles, which are kind of like tiny soap bubbles except they're short lived because they get broken up by cations (calcium, magnesium, etc). The typical size of a micelle is a few hundred molecules, to understand what that means google "microsphere".
To get stable cell-type membranes you need PHOSPHO-lipids which increase cation resistance by orders of magnitude. Earth's early environment was anoxic and iron-rich, the first atmosphere was hydrogen sulfide. So you have to do that chemistry. When you do, the answer you get is GIANT membranes, with thousands of lipids.
Therefore, the isolated environment provided by these "cells" was very likely to contain the essential precursors for what we now know as cellular life - namely formamide, oxaloacetate, pyruvate, and so on - and you'll note that many of these are components of the Krebs cycle.
In the development of lipids, you want to pay attention to the transition between amphiphiles and full blown phospholipids. There are two kinds of phospholipids: phosphatidyls and sphingophospholipids. Phosphatidyls have a glycerol backbone with two acyl chains. In organic chemistry the classification is called Cahn-Ingold-Prelog. Cellular life uses phosphatidyls.
From there, it's relatively easy to map a pathway to simple cells like monococci. All you need is a cell wall and some transfer RNA. These are easily obtained in an anoxic iron rich environment with hydrogen sulfide, on the surface of clays - which are simply mixtures of dirt and water along with some volcanic ash and whatever organic material comes along for the ride. You WILL get fully enclosed phospholipid membranes under these conditions, and they WILL contain all the essential precursors for amino acids and nucleosides. Your pathway passes for example through the replacement of carboxyl groups by coenzyme A and then acetyl-coA, and suddenly this starts to sound like an introductory biochemistry class.
To get to an actual replicating cell you need additional compartments, which are easily created from invaginations of the outer membrane. The first need is simply a separate compartment where lipids can be synthesized. This gives you control over the size and layout of the cell. Notice we haven't invoked any RNA yet, all we have is membranes that bud off each other and recombine in various ways to form varying sized compartments, each of which contain a mix of various biomolecules.
The next step is to organize the mix. Before you can do that you need TRANSPORT across the membrane, so you can control what's in each compartment. This is most likely where proteins first come into play. The most primitive transporters are acyl carrier proteins, which are very small but contain the essential structure of a hydrophilic part and a hydrophobic part.
The protein chain formation from amino acids is actually very easy to explain, it's been done in the lab in a dozen different ways. See for example
Amino Acid-Specific, Ribonucleotide-Promoted Peptide Formation in the Absence of Enzymes - PubMed
Nucleic acids and polypeptides are at the heart of life. It is interesting to ask whether the monomers of these biopolymers possess intrinsic reactivity that favors oligomerization in the absence of enzymes. We have recently observed that covalently linked peptido RNA chains form when mixtures...
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
But keep in mind we're still talking about chemistry that can be achieved with iron and sulfur, and maybe a little copper and magnesium. To make your compartments useful, you need some complexity (some variation) in the lipid composition, you need various phosphate esters and so on. This evolution can occur in parallel with protein elongation, the two do not depend on each other.
To support useful life you need to get to the point where you have a compartment that synthesizes transmembrane proteins. (At this point still not under the guidance of nucleotides). Turns out that's pretty easy. When the protein is made inside the compartment, the first thing that happens is it tries to get out, and then it gets stuck in the membrane. Once that happens, a little bit of calcium will break off the piece of the membrane containing the protein. It'll turn into a "vesicle" - and basically this is the exact mechanism used by the endoplasmic reticulum of modern cells.
All of this is cut and dried, there's no question about any of it. These reactions have been replicated hundreds of times in the lab. By more than just biochemists - for example by organic chemists interested in the behaviors of surfactant and soap.
It’s exactly what I said - combinatorial explosion. These reactions and structures occur "because they can".
CrusaderFrank
Diamond Member
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You overestimate human comprehension; some things, most thing in fact, are beyond us
Not for long.
We're already creating life in the laboratory.
Pretty soon we'll be creating space and time itself.
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Where have life cells been created? Can you tell me more about animals that have been created? And if not animals, what living life has been created since you are the expert on this topic? I say life above to not say living to make this more simple.I'm well familiar with Oro.
Here is my response to Oro:
If you want to understand the beginning of CELLULAR life, study lipids.
A stable cell membrane is the primary prerequisite for cellular life. It provides the compartmentation that supports evolution. Without it, all you have is a bunch of chemical reactions.
Lipids in isolation tend to form micelles, which are kind of like tiny soap bubbles except they're short lived because they get broken up by cations (calcium, magnesium, etc). The typical size of a micelle is a few hundred molecules, to understand what that means google "microsphere".
To get stable cell-type membranes you need PHOSPHO-lipids which increase cation resistance by orders of magnitude. Earth's early environment was anoxic and iron-rich, the first atmosphere was hydrogen sulfide. So you have to do that chemistry. When you do, the answer you get is GIANT membranes, with thousands of lipids.
Therefore, the isolated environment provided by these "cells" was very likely to contain the essential precursors for what we now know as cellular life - namely formamide, oxaloacetate, pyruvate, and so on - and you'll note that many of these are components of the Krebs cycle.
In the development of lipids, you want to pay attention to the transition between amphiphiles and full blown phospholipids. There are two kinds of phospholipids: phosphatidyls and sphingophospholipids. Phosphatidyls have a glycerol backbone with two acyl chains. In organic chemistry the classification is called Cahn-Ingold-Prelog. Cellular life uses phosphatidyls.
From there, it's relatively easy to map a pathway to simple cells like monococci. All you need is a cell wall and some transfer RNA. These are easily obtained in an anoxic iron rich environment with hydrogen sulfide, on the surface of clays - which are simply mixtures of dirt and water along with some volcanic ash and whatever organic material comes along for the ride. You WILL get fully enclosed phospholipid membranes under these conditions, and they WILL contain all the essential precursors for amino acids and nucleosides. Your pathway passes for example through the replacement of carboxyl groups by coenzyme A and then acetyl-coA, and suddenly this starts to sound like an introductory biochemistry class.
To get to an actual replicating cell you need additional compartments, which are easily created from invaginations of the outer membrane. The first need is simply a separate compartment where lipids can be synthesized. This gives you control over the size and layout of the cell. Notice we haven't invoked any RNA yet, all we have is membranes that bud off each other and recombine in various ways to form varying sized compartments, each of which contain a mix of various biomolecules.
The next step is to organize the mix. Before you can do that you need TRANSPORT across the membrane, so you can control what's in each compartment. This is most likely where proteins first come into play. The most primitive transporters are acyl carrier proteins, which are very small but contain the essential structure of a hydrophilic part and a hydrophobic part.
The protein chain formation from amino acids is actually very easy to explain, it's been done in the lab in a dozen different ways. See for example
Amino Acid-Specific, Ribonucleotide-Promoted Peptide Formation in the Absence of Enzymes - PubMed
Nucleic acids and polypeptides are at the heart of life. It is interesting to ask whether the monomers of these biopolymers possess intrinsic reactivity that favors oligomerization in the absence of enzymes. We have recently observed that covalently linked peptido RNA chains form when mixtures...
But keep in mind we're still talking about chemistry that can be achieved with iron and sulfur, and maybe a little copper and magnesium. To make your compartments useful, you need some complexity (some variation) in the lipid composition, you need various phosphate esters and so on. This evolution can occur in parallel with protein elongation, the two do not depend on each other.
To support useful life you need to get to the point where you have a compartment that synthesizes transmembrane proteins. (At this point still not under the guidance of nucleotides). Turns out that's pretty easy. When the protein is made inside the compartment, the first thing that happens is it tries to get out, and then it gets stuck in the membrane. Once that happens, a little bit of calcium will break off the piece of the membrane containing the protein. It'll turn into a "vesicle" - and basically this is the exact mechanism used by the endoplasmic reticulum of modern cells.
All of this is cut and dried, there's no question about any of it. These reactions have been replicated hundreds of times in the lab. By more than just biochemists - for example by organic chemists interested in the behaviors of surfactant and soap.
It’s exactly what I said - combinatorial explosion. These reactions and structures occur "because they can".
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- #554
What is my books definition of life?
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As you see it. It states life begins at birth. It does not say how that works. It claims conception is not the start of life.
A bag of water.
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I only got into 5 pages so far and will alert you if that is true!!!
Cellular life is a very specific TYPE of life, a tiny subset of the real thing.
Cellular life compartmentizes complexity, thereby rendering it stable. That's its purpose and why it survives.
You're still stuck on bags of water.
What you should be looking into, is self replicating systems.
Especially, since you're so interested in "abiogenesis", those that don't require cells.
For instance - a very simple example of a self replicating systems is an auto catalytic chemical reaction. A more sophisticated example is a clay crystal
In computer science there are quines, that's the software version - little bits of code that replicate themselves. And mobile agents that replicate themselves from node to node
In math, John von Neumann defined the essential properties of self replicating systems. For example there are self tiling tiles called setisets, and there are self replicating cellular automata ("universal constructors")..
In robotics there is mechanical self replication. In AI there is the self replication of information geometry. In nanotechnology there are self replicating molecular machines.
What do all these examples have in common, and how does that pertain to biological chemistry?
The answer is, you don't have to "create" one of these systems, they're built in to the fabric of space and time. They are, in every sense of the word, "universal". It has something to do with dimensionality, something to do with self-similarity, something to do with numbers themselves. We don't understand it all, yet.
What we know is, giant lipid membranes form in aqueous solutions of hydrocarbons and sulfur. The compartmentalization then "self replicates", it becomes other compartments and more of them.
An analogy can be found in Pascal's triangle, which can be built from scratch through a recursive process. The 1 becomes two copies of itself. The 1 and 1 add to get the next combination. The recursion grows with every cycle, it "explodes".
Other examples of recursive processes include space filling curves, and dusts. Recursion doesn't have to explode, it can go the other way too. Recursion is one possible outcome of quantum entanglement. There is also recursion in information theory. All these things, can be considered as examples and variations of "abiogenesis".
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