Zone1 Why doesn't god just kill satan

[egp320i]

I've actually asked God this kind of question.

I think he uses the devil to test people, to see if they really, really believe Jesus' Words.

good and evil offset each other, it's actually basically a game to them I bet

 

[Zebra]

?
It doesn't make sense to me. Just seems like a way to instill fear.

it was the question that Man Friday asked Robinson

 

[Zincwarrior]

We are Satan.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Once again, the age-old question of why God allows continued suffering.

That is the real question here.

Man chose the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Choosing that tree is deciding for yourself, good and evil. Suffering comes from that.

 

[toobfreak]

Why doesn't god just kill satan​

It doesn't make sense to me.

You entirely miss the point, TN. It isn't like God and Satan are two opponents in a ring fighting it out. God cannot kill Satan and Satan cannot kill God.

God embodies pure goodness which is the quality of the absolute good, while Satan is the embodiment of evil. For there to be good, there must be evil, and for there to be evil, there must be good--- both are opposite ends of the same thing.

In the mythos of the Bible, Satan was an angel who was cast out never to know goodness again for his embrace of the darkness. Darkness and evil cannot be defeated in the world, but merely resisted from within.

 

[onefour1]

In order for mankind to advance to become more like God, he/she needed to gain a knowledge of good and evil. We learn this in Genesis 3:

Genesis 3:22
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Here we learn that mankind became more like God by partaking of the forbidden fruit which caused mankind to be in a fallen world where they could experience both good and evil. By coming to know good and evil we become more like God. For this reason God sent Lucifer, whose name was changed to Satan, to this earth to introduce evil into this world. Now it is up to mankind to choose good over evil and become even more like God.

Lucifer was used for this purpose. He was a spirit child of Heavenly Father who rebelled against God and was the opposition in the War in Heaven. His spirit, as are all our spirits, are eternal in nature and cannot die. Satan will be cast into outer darkness for his rebellion but he was first used to bring evil into this world so that we might progress by learning good and evil and choosing the good over the evil.

 

[Quantrill]

In order for mankind to advance to become more like God, he/she needed to gain a knowledge of good and evil. We learn this in Genesis 3:

Genesis 3:22
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Here we learn that mankind became more like God by partaking of the forbidden fruit which caused mankind to be in a fallen world where they could experience both good and evil. By coming to know good and evil we become more like God. For this reason God sent Lucifer, whose name was changed to Satan, to this earth to introduce evil into this world. Now it is up to mankind to choose good over evil and become even more like God.

Lucifer was used for this purpose. He was a spirit child of Heavenly Father who rebelled against God and was the opposition in the War in Heaven. His spirit, as are all our spirits, are eternal in nature and cannot die. Satan will be cast into outer darkness for his rebellion but he was first used to bring evil into this world so that we might progress by learning good and evil and choosing the good over the evil.

For the most part, I agree with what you say.

But the all encompassing question to me is, why? Why not make man at the beginning to 'know good and evil'? Why did He need to create Satan?

Was there evil before God created Lucifer?

Why create a salvation that required the death of One, Jesus Christ. Couldn't there have been another way?

Understand these are not questions of doubt on my part. Just questions that I often entertain.

Quantrill

 

[onefour1]

For the most part, I agree with what you say.

But the all encompassing question to me is, why? Why not make man at the beginning to 'know good and evil'? Why did He need to create Satan?

Was there evil before God created Lucifer?

Why create a salvation that required the death of One, Jesus Christ. Couldn't there have been another way?

Understand these are not questions of doubt on my part. Just questions that I often entertain.

Quantrill

In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints we believe that a part of man has always existed. That part of man is known as man's intelligence. We also believe that matter is self-existing and thus has eternally existed as well as man's intelligence. Because of the self-existing nature of man's intelligence and matter, God could not create mankind from nothing and thus could not create them to be perfect. God gave birth to our spirits by combining our intelligence with spirit matter. God is the literal Father of our spirits.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29, 33-34
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;
34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Because God could not create our self-existing intelligence, He had to have another way for us to progress. Thus God creates worlds for his children to inhabit that go through a fallen state so that we can experience good and evil and hopefully through our free will choose good over evil. Free will is critical in order for us to truly become good beings in and of ourselves. Because we are imperfect beings and are given free will, God knew that in a fallen world we would come short of the glory of God and sin. For this reason God needed a way to allow men to repent and be forgiven while they went through this mortal fallen world.

How does God accomplish this? He chooses his first born son in spirit before the foundation of this earth to come to this earth and live and perfect and sinless life. To his son he gives him the power to suffer for all the sins of the world. This suffering creates an unjust event. Because Jesus was a perfect being without ever committing a sin, he didn't deserve any of the suffering he went through. It totally unjust that he suffer at all. This was part of God the Father's plan. By creating this unjust situation, Jesus would deserve a grand recompense for all the suffer he went through. What was his recompense? He was granted the right to forgive the sins of all others if they would only repent and come unto him. In this way God is a just God and a merciful God. Jesus came to this life and showed us all how we should live by repenting and forsaking our sins and he also obtained the power to forgive any man or woman of their sins if they would repent and come unto him.

A teaching in my church is that there has always been opposition in all things. By establishing what is good, it opposite will then exist which is evil. In an eternity with opposition, we must learn to overcome opposition to good and choose good over evil and hold onto it as part of our existence. Heaven is a place for those who have learned to overcome evil and choose good continually. We are on the road of good and evil and need to learn repentance and how to overcome evil.

Because of the eternal nature of our intelligence God could not create us to be perfect thus he had to come up with another means of allowing us to progress to become more like himself. The atonement of Jesus Christ became a necessity of his plan. Coming to this fallen earth also became a necessity of his plan. It is up to us to choose what manner of being we want to become in the eternities. God has provided the means for us to progress, but it is essential that we choose, in and of ourselves, to become a good being.

Finally, by being combined with the elements, we receive more joy. Thus it was important for Jesus to also bring about the resurrection of the dead and allow all mankind the salvation of being resurrected to an immortal body of flesh and bones. Without resurrection, we cannot receive a fulness of joy.

 

[Quantrill]

@oneforur1

I am not Mormon so I reject most of what you just said. The answers I look for must come from the Bible alone.

Your 'Doctrine and Covenants' are in disagreement with the Bible.

(Gen. 1:1) "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." (Gen. 1:26) "And God said, let us make man in our image...So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

It is in this sense that all of mankind is the 'offspring' of God, because man is created in the image of God. (Acts 17:28-29) But not all are 'of God'. Not all are of His Seed or Nature. Such as Cain. "Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one..."

Man always existed in the Mind and loins of God. And no doubt were known by God. But in the beginning man did not exist with God. Until God created or made...nothing existed.

That is difficult if not impossible to grasp. But no more difficult or impossible in recognizing that God has always existed. The infinite is too much for the finite to grasp.

Which is why we are left to that which God has revealed to us. That revelation is found in the Bible. And God has not revealed everything. (Deut. 29:29) "The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law."

So, for me, there is nothing wrong in having questions about God and creation, etc. But any answers for me must come from Scripture alone. Recognizing all the time, that God may not give an answer.

Quantrill

 

[the watcher]

The same reason that the US will never conquer racism, poverty, terrerrism, inflation, global weather, cancer, etc. It defines them, like the Joker defined Batman, it enables them to do their great work. How else could the old priests or Joel Osteen get you to send money?

 

[onefour1]

@oneforur1

I am not Mormon so I reject most of what you just said. The answers I look for must come from the Bible alone.

You must be a protestant. God is very capable of providing additional scripture and revelation even today. Does the Bible tell you that you can only receive truth from the Bible and only the Bible?

Your 'Doctrine and Covenants' are in disagreement with the Bible.

I don't believe that it is.

(Gen. 1:1) "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." (Gen. 1:26) "And God said, let us make man in our image...So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

What does the beginning mean to you? I believe that the beginning refers to before the earth existed and before man was created on this earth. God created the flesh and bone body of Adam in his very own image and likeness. Upon creating this body from the dust of the ground, God allowed the spirit of Adam to enter the body of flesh and bones that he created. Upon death, the spirit returns unto God who gave it.


Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

To read more on the pre-mortal existence of mankind, see my post entitled,

Did you exist before you were born into this life?​

It is in this sense that all of mankind is the 'offspring' of God, because man is created in the image of God. (Acts 17:28-29) But not all are 'of God'. Not all are of His Seed or Nature. Such as Cain. "Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one..."

Man always existed in the Mind and loins of God. And no doubt were known by God. But in the beginning man did not exist with God. Until God created or made...nothing existed.

That is difficult if not impossible to grasp. But no more difficult or impossible in recognizing that God has always existed. The infinite is too much for the finite to grasp.

Which is why we are left to that which God has revealed to us. That revelation is found in the Bible. And God has not revealed everything. (Deut. 29:29) "The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law."

So, for me, there is nothing wrong in having questions about God and creation, etc. But any answers for me must come from Scripture alone. Recognizing all the time, that God may not give an answer.

Quantrill

To this I would ask, who were the sons of God that existed before the world was created?

Job 38:3-7
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
And who was it that fought in the war in heaven before the world was who had to overcome the devil by the blood of the lamb and their testimonies and loved not their lives unto the death?

Revelation 12:7-11
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Who were these brethren that fought in the war in heaven and later had to rely on the blood of the Lamb for salvation and were also subject to death?

why does it say that spirit returns unto God upon death? If it is returning, then it must have been there before!

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[Quantrill]

onefour1

Concerning post #(391):

As to the written Word of God, the Bible is the only written Word of God on earth.

If there is no disagreement between Mormons and Christians concerning the Word of God, why are Mormons called Mormons and not Christians? Do you acknowledge other writings outside of Scripture as the Word of God?

The point being God created the physical and material world from nothing. Then God created man from the dust of the earth. Man did not exist until God created him.

Man's spirit returns to God because it was created by God when God made man of the dust of the earth, and then breathed into him life. Whereby the spirit and soul were created. (Gen. 2:7) Thus man's spirit returns to God from which it came when God made man. Not from some existence of man prior to man being created.

The 'sons of God' in (Job 38) are the angels. They were direct creations from God. Just like Adam was a direct creation from God. The sons of God are not mankind living before Adam and Eve.

Concerning (Rev. 12:10-11) that war in heaven is between the good and bad angels. Not a war between man and the angels. Satan constantly accuses the brethren for their testimony of God.

Quantrill

 

[onefour1]

onefour1

Concerning post #(391):

As to the written Word of God, the Bible is the only written Word of God on earth.

Where does it declare that in the Bible?

If there is no disagreement between Mormons and Christians concerning the Word of God, why are Mormons called Mormons and not Christians? Do you acknowledge other writings outside of Scripture as the Word of God?

There is a great deal of disagreement between member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and other churches that claim to be Christian. The term, "Mormons" is a name given to us by non-members because we have the Book of Mormon. The name of our church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We currently recognize the following as Scripture: The Bible, The Book of Mormon, The Doctrine and Covenants and The Pearl of Great Price. However, we also believe in continuing revelation from God and that there can come additional scripture from God anytime he reveals his word.

The point being God created the physical and material world from nothing. Then God created man from the dust of the earth. Man did not exist until God created him.

Where does it ever claim in the Bible that God created the physical and material world from nothing? God created Adam's physical body from the dust of the earth and then Adam's already existing spirit entered into his body to give it life. Check out this list of verse regarding the premortal existence of mankind's spirits:

Man, Antemortal Existence of​

• See also Council in Heaven; Foreordination; Man, a Spirit Child of Heavenly Father; Spirit Creation
• God of the spirits of all flesh, Num. 16:22 (27:16).
• all the sons of God shouted for joy, Job 38:7.
• the spirit shall return unto God who gave it, Eccl. 12:7.
• Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, Jer. 1:5.
• Lord … formeth the spirit of man within him, Zech. 12:1.
• who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind, John 9:2.
• poets have said, For we are also his offspring, Acts 17:28.
• For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate, Rom. 8:29.
• chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, Eph. 1:4.
• subjection unto the Father of spirits, Heb. 12:9.
• angels which kept not their first estate, Jude 1:6.
• Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, Rev. 12:7.
• called and prepared from the foundation of the world, Alma 13:3.
• bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord, Hel. 14:17.
• third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away, D&C 29:36.
• seraphic hosts of heaven, before the world was made, D&C 38:1.
• man, according to his creation before the world, D&C 49:17.
• Man was also in the beginning with God, D&C 93:29.
• choice spirits who were reserved to come forth, D&C 138:53.
• before they were born … received their first lessons, D&C 138:56.
• in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, Moses 3:5.
• he beheld the spirits that God had created, Moses 6:36.
• intelligences that were organized before the world was, Abr. 3:22.
• he stood among those that were spirits, Abr. 3:23.
• took his spirit … and put it into him, Abr. 5:7.
• See also Prov. 8:22–31; John 1:2, 14; 8:58; 16:28; 17:5, 24; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2; 3 Ne. 1:13; 26:5; Ether 3:16.

Man's spirit returns to God because it was created by God when God made man of the dust of the earth, and then breathed into him life. Whereby the spirit and soul were created. (Gen. 2:7) Thus man's spirit returns to God from which it came when God made man. Not from some existence of man prior to man being created.

Again, see the verses listed above which contradict your belief. The spirit returns to God because our spirits are the literal offspring of God and God is the Father of our spirits.

Acts 17:28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.

Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

We are the literal offspring of God and He is the Father of our spirits. We are descendants of our Heavenly Father.

Psalms 82:6
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

John 10:34
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

The 'sons of God' in (Job 38) are the angels. They were direct creations from God. Just like Adam was a direct creation from God. The sons of God are not mankind living before Adam and Eve.

It doesn't say that in the verses. That is you interjecting your bias into it.

Concerning (Rev. 12:10-11) that war in heaven is between the good and bad angels. Not a war between man and the angels. Satan constantly accuses the brethren for their testimony of God.

Quantrill

And why did those angel need to rely on the blood of the Lamb and their testimonies and be subject to death if they were not mortal? The truth is that it was we who fought in the war in heaven and have come to this earth to receive bodies and to experience good and evil. Angel are nothing more than messenger of God who are mankind. Some angels have not yet come to receive bodies yet and other have. The angel Michael is Adam and the angel Gabriel is Noah.

Ephesians 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

 

[onefour1]

An added verse which supports pre-mortal existence of man.

2 Timothy 1:9
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

[onefour1]

Here is another pre-mortal existence verse:

Jeremiah 1:5
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

 

[shockedcanadian]

In Judaism, satan is not a being but rather the concept of evil, tempatation etc. As such, it is abound until the world changes its ways and the masiach can arrive.

 

[BackAgain]

We are Satan.

My aunt told me I was a saint.

Mom left it at “good boy,” then scritch me behind my ear.

 

[XponentialChaos]

God cannot kill Satan and Satan cannot kill God.

God created Satan but can’t kill him? I thought he was supposed to be all-powerful.

 

[Quantrill]

onefour1

concerning your post #393):

The Bible declares itself to be the inspired Word of God. It has been written, and gone through the process of canonization whereby individual books were added to the Scriptures. From (Genesis) to (Revelation) it is complete, with no other books added to it.

There is disagreement with Mormons and Christians because there is disagreement in your writings. We reject your writings as Scripture and any future claims of written revelation.

I already told you. (Gen. 1:1) "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Creating out of nothing. (Heb. 11:3) "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." Then on the sixth day man was created from the dust of the earth. (Gen. 1:26)

None of the Scriptures you give speak to any pre-existence of man. they speak to God's ordination of His work and that it was declared prior to His actually performing it. Because God knows all His people prior to their actual physical existence doesn't mean they existed before. Man did not exist until God made Adam and Eve. And none of the verse you give from other writings are of no interest to me. With God, Jesus Christ was slain from the foundation of the world. (Rev. 13:8) And He could form His work around it because He knew it would be. But it didn't occur until the Crucifixion of Christ.

I've already explained (Acts 17:28-29). Mankind is the offspring of God in the sense that mankind is made in the image of God. Man's spirit returns to God as God is the Father of mans spirit which was created at the moment of Adam's creation. Our spirit is from God. That doesn't mean our spirit existed prior to our creation.

The word 'gods' in (Ps. 82:6) doesn't indicate any divine nature of man or pre-existence of man. Just as in (Ex. 21:6) and (Ex. 22:8), the same word is used for 'judges'.

Concerning (Job 38) my bias is supported by (Gen. 6:2-4).

In (Rev. 12:11) "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb" speaks to the brethren, not the angels. I reject your view that men fought in heaven before they existed on earth. And I reject your view as to identifying Adam and Noah as angels Michael and Gabriel.

Concerning (Eph. 1:3-5), being chosen and predestined does not mean we existed at that time. In God's plan, that was when we were chosen and predestined.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

An added verse which supports pre-mortal existence of man.

2 Timothy 1:9
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Speaks only to God's work. Not to man's pre-existence.

Quantrill