Why do you support illegal immigration?

[KMAN]

I find that pretty glaring, myself.

There seems to be a glass ceiling for concern about this immigration trend. There seems to be plenty of it at the grassroots level, but by the time you get to the influencial crust of either party, those concerns have evaporated either into nothing or into an insubstantial talking-point smokescreen.

Clearly, this type and level of immigration is benefiting somebody. Somebody with real clout.

In my opinion neither party wants to hurt anyone's feelings plus they probably all own companies that hire illegals....

 

[ReillyT]

Are you serious about not knowing if an increase in people who take from the system and don't pay into the system hurts the economy????????? Evidentally you don't have kids... Let me enlighten you... The more children you have the more your cost goes up...

Now back to my question... Do you think it is ok for illegals to break into your house? Or would you like for them to ring the doorbell and ask to come in?

The issue of whether, in sum, immigration (both legal and illegal) provides an economic benefit to the country is a complicated one about which there is substantial disagreement. A recent report by the President's Council of Economic Advisors reviewed the literature and determined that overall, immigration (both legal and illegal) provides a net benefit to the US economy.

Here is the link with some of their conclusions:

Key Findings

1. On average, US natives benefit from immigration. Immigrants tend to complement (not
substitute for) natives, raising natives’ productivity and income.

2. Careful studies of the long-run fiscal effects of immigration conclude that it is likely to
have a modest, positive influence.

3. Skilled immigrants are likely to be especially beneficial to natives. In addition to
contributions to innovation, they have a significant positive fiscal impact.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/cea_immigration_062007.pdf

The report also finds that immigrants (both legal and illegal) have lower crime rates than natives.

I am not stating that I believe this report fully. In truth, I don't know. As I said, there is substantial disagreement on the issue. However, the finding of the report should be one of the considerations as we analyze the issue.

To your other question, I wouldn't want anyone to break into my house, but I don't think that is an analogous issue to the overall question of illegal immigration.

 

[BrianH]

Great. Manifest Destiny going south. We get Mexico and then Canada and there is no stopping us. Pretty soon we also have the sweet beaches of Costa Rica.

Manifest Destiny does not mean going south........It was an idea to expand westward. Atlantic to the Pacific. Not North Pole to Costa Rica.

Oh boo hoo, Texas was once Mexico...who cares. It's THe U.S. now...get over it. Could you imagine what it would be like if it were still under Mexican Control? Mexico can barely control it's Northern Regions as it is....


The point is, in any economy, it's very difficult for a population to PAY for a large influx of people. If you could imagine East Germany insantly being added to West Germany....

There's nothing wrong with Mexican immigrants coming over here legally to work...the problem comes from Mexican illegals coming over here and breaking our laws. Every time law enforcement picks up an illegal, U.S. Tax-paying citizens are paying for their arrest, detainment, food, transport, and deportation. And considering millions are being picked up, the bill adds up.

I imagine that you are not from anywhere in the South. Come to Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, or Southern California, and you'll see why it has become a problem.

Obama made a speech a while back urging Americans to learn Spanish. ALl of that is fine, except is misconception the Mexicans are learning English. It's obvious he doesn't spend much Time in Central and South Texas. They don't try at all because they don't have to. Wal-Mart prints everything in Spanish as well as every other large business. H.E.B., Banks, etc...

In our H.E.B, they've opened a electronic store within the larger store. It sells TV's and other electronics. It is specifically geared towards Mexicans who do not speak any English. I walked by it the other day and saw NO signs in English. Every sign was in Spanish. EVERY ONE. I almost went over there to ask if white, non-spanish speaking people were eligible to buy a TV there, but I didn't want to create a stir.

Mexicans don't have to learn English because everyon'e here is catering to them. These immigrants, illegal or legal, are not having to assimilate to our culture. We're having to assimilate to them. I worked in auto-parts for a few years. I actually had numerous spanish-speaking customers come in, set a part on the counter and start speaking to me in full-blown Spanish--expecting me to know what they were talking about. It really made me sick that they didn't even try to speak english for my sake. I would then say..."No habla espanol" and walk off. Had they made an attempt, I would have had more sympathy.

I don't have a problem with those who want to come here, work, raise a family, look for a better life, and actually try to fit in. What I do not tolerate, are people who come here and expect to be catered to. Many Americans are forced to pull themselves up by their own "boot-straps" and do the best they can. They are not catered to and are brought up not to expect hand-outs for the gov. We have an entire generation of people sucking off the gov. and U.S. taxpayers.

 

[Ravi]

Mexicans don't have to learn English because everyon'e here is catering to them. These immigrants, illegal or legal, are not having to assimilate to our culture. We're having to assimilate to them. I worked in auto-parts for a few years. I actually had numerous spanish-speaking customers come in, set a part on the counter and start speaking to me in full-blown Spanish--expecting me to know what they were talking about. It really made me sick that they didn't even try to speak english for my sake. I would then say..."No habla espanol" and walk off. Had they made an attempt, I would have had more sympathy.

hee hee hee! If you undermined my business in that manner you'd be out the door in a heartbeat.

btw, I think Reilly was being sarcastic.

 

[BrianH]

Mexicans don't have to learn English because everyon'e here is catering to them. These immigrants, illegal or legal, are not having to assimilate to our culture. We're having to assimilate to them. I worked in auto-parts for a few years. I actually had numerous spanish-speaking customers come in, set a part on the counter and start speaking to me in full-blown Spanish--expecting me to know what they were talking about. It really made me sick that they didn't even try to speak english for my sake. I would then say..."No habla espanol" and walk off. Had they made an attempt, I would have had more sympathy.

hee hee hee! If you undermined my business in that manner you'd be out the door in a heartbeat.

btw, I think Reilly was being sarcastic.

Oh, oops..... I was more posting to Reality, not Reilly.

What do you think about the store that has no English writing or signs in it?

And as far as undermining business...fortunately, my boss is a good guy and understand the frustration of this type of crap...he worked at the counter as well and experienced the same kind of crap.

 

[Charles_Main]

Manifest Destiny does not mean going south........It was an idea to expand westward. Atlantic to the Pacific. Not North Pole to Costa Rica.

Actually there were plenty of people who wanted us to expand to the north and south as well.

 

[Ravi]

What do you think about the store that has no English writing or signs in it?

Probably not legal. They must have clearly marked exit signs, at the very least. Other than that, I've no problem with it...do you think the government should dictate what language a business conducts business in?

It's funny, where I live it sometimes seems like hispanics out number gringos 8 to 1, and yet I've never once had a sales clerk or cashier assume that I speak spanish.

 

[BrianH]

Actually there were plenty of people who wanted us to expand to the north and south as well.

Agreed, but it wasn't near as important as westward expansion.

I'm just not willing to argue the non-events that happened...lol.

 

[BrianH]

Probably not legal. They must have clearly marked exit signs, at the very least. Other than that, I've no problem with it...do you think the government should dictate what language a business conducts business in?

It's funny, where I live it sometimes seems like hispanics out number gringos 8 to 1, and yet I've never once had a sales clerk or cashier assume that I speak spanish.

Yeah, there are quite a few hispanics where I live...Texas (middle) Coast. I have many hispanic friends, so I don't want to seem racist or stereotypical. My graduating class was about 50-50 (Hispanic to white). But all of them spoke English except for one....His name was Gilo. But he tried damn hard to speak it and we tried damn hard to accomade him.

The problem seems to me, is that we have alot of Americans being expected to accomodate it, while no one is expecting immigrants to accomodate us. I agree that Americans should learn to speak more than one language, but I think it should be a two way street.

 

[Ravi]

Just be thankful Obama isn't going to force us to speak French.

 

[Charles_Main]

Just be thankful Obama isn't going to force us to speak French.

Give him time

 

[Reality]

So are you saying that if the whole country of Mexico wants to come to the US that American citizens should pay for it? Currently there are about 20 million illegals here (estimate obviously differ) but if they are made legal and let's say they bring just 2 of their family members to the US, that's 60 million new citizens just like that. We currently have roughly 300 million people in this country so we will be adding 20% to the population. With our economy the way it is right now do you think this country could survive?

I assume you would not have a problem if an illegal immigrant broke into your house because he was looking for a new place to live, no? Or would you rather they ask your permission?

The entire Mexican population does not want to come to the US, so that solves that problem. If the country is going to fail, its going to be because of borrowing to pay for tax breaks issued without reducing spending, not people cleaning offices and picking fruit. The military-industrial complex is bleeding us much more than Mexicans ever could.

I would have a problem with anyone breaking into my house regardless of their color or what country they were born in. However if I chose to compensate them for providing a service that wouldn't be breaking in. Bad analogy.

Amnesty just makes sense, but not without reform to the immigration system. The problem isn't lack of enforcement, because enforcement is damn near impossible. 1986's amnesty failed not because it was a bad idea, but because the demand for immigration far exceeds the supply of legal immigration opportunities. If the REGULATION of the SUPPLY wasn't insufficient to provide for the DEMAND we wouldn't be repeating the amnesty debate. I find it interesting that conservatives don't see, or choose not to see, the free market principles at play in immigration.

And finally, but by no means less important, is that INS has been rolled into DHS and has become, in part, ICE. There is no way DHS should be given the power to create yet another secret police force; this one to track down 20 million people. Between a wall and a new DHS agency, which would likely be given extra-constitutional powers given the brief history of the agency and its crying and complaining about checks and balances from congress and the judiciary, amnesty is cheaper and less intrusive to liberty. I can see it now: DHS with the power to deport people without hearings. If you are dark skinned and go to the store without your license you might get caught in a round up and find yourself in Tijuana the same day. On top of that, we'd be paying $10,000 a month per agent to some subcontractor with waiver from the oval office on the subcontractor's obligations under the law. I'll pass.

 

[Reality]

Illegal ALIENS should be deported, they should be hunted down, rounded up and evicted from this country. And the border should be made secure so they can not just walk back in.

Anyone that makes a habit of hiring them should be fined until they get the idea it does not pay to hire them. Anyone caught smuggling them in should be jailed for 10 years and if not an American citizen deported when the term is up.

That you dumb shits think it is nothing to pay for 20 MILLION illegals schooling and medical care is amazing. They do NOT pay taxes, no property tax and no income tax. They pay nothing into the school system they pay nothing into the medical system, they are a complete dead weight. And there are 20 MILLION of them. 20 percent of Mexico is in the US illegally. 1 in 5. There are about 300 million American citizens that means for 15 Americans there is an illegal Mexican in this country. With the potential to climb even higher.

And you dipsticks want amnesty. Amnesty did not work before, it made it WORSE. Ever hear the one about learning from history not to make the same mistakes over and over?

What a condescending prick. Honestly.

Learn from history. Giving amnesty and doing virtually nothing about the visa quotas led to this situation. Free market is awesome until its inconvenient to condescending conservatives. Let the market, not artificial quotas set by pleasing the embassy that spends the most money lobbying, decide.

Your desires to recreate the good 'ole days of the Berlin Wall really is of no significance to the majority of the country.

 

[Reality]

This U.S. News and World Report piece (h/t DRJ) asks:

[W]hat do low-skilled immigrants cost America? Everything has its costs, of course. According to a new analysis by Robert Rector of the conservative Heritage Foundation, the average low-skilled immigrant household received $30,160 in direct benefits, means-tested benefits, education, and other services from all levels of government in 2004.

By contrast, low-skill immigrant households paid only $10,573 in taxes that year, meaning the average low-skill household had a fiscal deficit of $19,588. And what about retirement costs? Rector estimates that if all the current adult illegal immigrants in the United States were granted amnesty, the net retirement costs to government (benefits minus taxes) could be over $2.5 trillion.

A 2003 analysis by the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas concluded that while high-skilled immigration had “good economic effects”–it added to economic growth and helped government finances–low-skilled immigration was more of a mixed picture. “The economic benefits are there as well but have to be balanced against the fiscal impact, which is likely negative,” explained economist Pia Orrenius.

While I would question anything Heritage says (that doesn't mean they aren't right here), that is in my mind the best reason for amnesty. Get these people paying their taxes, not only payroll taxes. That will be more beneficial to tax coffers than another multi-billion dollar agency under DHS.

 

[Reality]

:
Mexicans don't have to learn English because everyon'e here is catering to them. These immigrants, illegal or legal, are not having to assimilate to our culture. We're having to assimilate to them. I worked in auto-parts for a few years. I actually had numerous spanish-speaking customers come in, set a part on the counter and start speaking to me in full-blown Spanish--expecting me to know what they were talking about. It really made me sick that they didn't even try to speak english for my sake. I would then say..."No habla espanol" and walk off. Had they made an attempt, I would have had more sympathy.

I don't have a problem with those who want to come here, work, raise a family, look for a better life, and actually try to fit in. What I do not tolerate, are people who come here and expect to be catered to. Many Americans are forced to pull themselves up by their own "boot-straps" and do the best they can. They are not catered to and are brought up not to expect hand-outs for the gov. We have an entire generation of people sucking off the gov. and U.S. taxpayers.

Businesses are catering to them because they are viable customers. If it didn't pay they wouldn't do it.

 

[Reality]

Give him time

That was more a trait of French in their colonialist holdings. Making the citizens of countries which our country occupies speak English is about the only way our right wing hasn't tried to act like the French in Algeria or the Brits in India or Egypt.

 

[Paulie]

So is smoking pot. So was anal sex between consenting adults in some states until 4 seconds ago. So was spitting on the sidewalk. So was being black and drinking from the wrong water fountain not all that long ago in some places. All laws.

So I'm going to change your question from the misnomer you presented. Why does illegal immigration not concern me?

In my view the talking points about expenses to government is overblown. Largely,we are talking about education and healthcare services.

Everyone should be allowed access to institutions of education. In my view, not even building a wall (that no one wants to pay for) will stop the majority of illegal immigration. Its just too big of a land border. If thats the case, then we don't want to force these people into dependency and poverty and enable them to be self dependent. Education is the single greatest investment government can make, and it should be denied to no one. In my view, denying education to illegals only encourages the social problems that come with immigrants from what is basically a third world country.

On healthcare, I'm just never going to support turning people away from the emergency room, I don't care who they are.

So those two expenses are acceptable to me.

With that said, these people really do provide needed services in many industries. These people can't go collect welfare or other public assistance, so they are forced into these below wage jobs. Kicking illegals out of the country en masse sounds great to some, until their cost to have their offices cleaned increases x5.

And my overriding principle is simple. If I'm standing in a third world country looking over a fence at the richest country in the world with the most jobs in the world, I'm going, not standing around thinking about the morality of the issue. These people simply are trying to get theirs, just like we all wake up and do every day.

The fact that other laws are broken should never provide justification for any OTHER laws to be broken. That's ridiculous.

The difficulty in completely preventing aliens from crossing our massive border is understandable, but when the opportunity is there to take the necessary legal action against an illegal alien, it should be taken. Looking the other way on it, and trying to REWARD them for their illegal immigration, is never going to help the situation. It's only going to ultimately encourage more illegal immigration, when it becomes obvious that we aren't serious about the law.

 

[Paulie]

Think about the immigrants here LEGALLY, that have been waiting YEARS for their citizenship. I have a mexican immigrant who works for me, and he's here legally. He's still waiting on the citizenship process. He busts his ass everyday. Why should he have to be delayed in getting citizenship, so that 20 million others here ILLEGALLY can be rewarded for their crime and integrated into the system?

 

[editec]

The two main parties have entirely different reasons for thinking illegal ALIENS are good. However of the two parties the Republican one has a grass roots movement to stop it where as the Democrats all think amnesty is the cure.

Pure partisan conjecture. I do not doubt that the same percentage of grassroot Ds object to illegal immigrants as Rs.

If you have evident to support your hypothesis, show us.

The dems want more voters beholden to them, the Republicans think it is good for the economy. They are both wrong. But of the two, the party that has any chance of doing anything about it is Republican, why, cause the base does NOT support the leadership on this and has thrown them out once for not listening already.

More specious conjecture, methinks.

Again, prove it.

 

[Reality]

Think about the immigrants here LEGALLY, that have been waiting YEARS for their citizenship. I have a mexican immigrant who works for me, and he's here legally. He's still waiting on the citizenship process. He busts his ass everyday. Why should he have to be delayed in getting citizenship, so that 20 million others here ILLEGALLY can be rewarded for their crime and integrated into the system?

In my view, because the system is completely dysfunctional and broken. Either amnesty or more government is the only way to reset the clock. While that does seem unfair to the person you mentioned, it is much more in the national interest to get these people, who are going to be here anyways, paying their share of taxes. No, its not fair. But its realistic.