why do soldiers even fight on orders of politicians?

[The Sage of Main Street]

Before the Chickenhawk Elite Could Stab Us in the Back, They Had to Take Away Our Backbone

Someday the sheltered upper class will regret teaching a man to kill and then treating him like "a loser too lazy to go to college."

 

[frigidweirdo]

Because that's the oath they swore... I'm not sure if you would understand the concept even if you explained to you.



Actually, most of us did it because we believed in something greater than ourselves, but I doubt you'd understand the concept.

I doubt you'd have last ten minutes doing the job I did in the Army.

Sure, people believed in something greater than themselves. It's basic human manipulation, if you give people guns, you better make sure they're not going to figure out what's real.

I also find it funny that you've written things like "I'm not sure you'd understand the concept" and "I doubt you'd have last ten minutes"... telling people they're "the best" is one of the basic concepts of manipulation. Look at the Russians, their elite units were told they were the elite units, and in the Ukraine they didn't last very long, it was all image.

Image is everything, substance is nothing.

 

[Dayton3]

the answer is not as trivial or obvious as it might seem.

i mean, politicians are addicted to attention, fancy suits and drives, plus powerhungry and (generally speaking) corrupt.

citation needed

 

[peacefan]

citation needed

what's wrong with just stating the experience of a life long of watching news as my 'citation'?

a citation would just allow you to attack the article/book i mentioned, to narrow down this general discussion to that specific book/article.
that's not what i want to achieve here. i want to compare life experiences.

 

[Dayton3]

what's wrong with just stating the experience of a life long of watching news as my 'citation'?

a citation would just allow you to attack the article/book i mentioned, to narrow down this general discussion to that specific book/article.
that's not what i want to achieve here. i want to compare life experiences.

My life experiences are quite different from yours

 

[peacefan]

My life experiences are quite different from yours

and what is a book or an article? a journalist's life experience, of course.

i'd rather be comparing life experiences by ordinary people at this point.

 

[peacefan]

If 2020 is synonymous with 1776, which it is actually, Trump would have had Pence arrested on January 6th.
1-6-21

When I get home from work later I'll explain if anyone doesn't understand.

i don't put much stock in numerology

 

[peacefan]

They don’t choose their orders

no, politicians choose their orders, and they're (mostly) the puppets/lapdogs of the rich, who fight wars like it's some kinda computer battle chess / war-simulating game (over even more money to hoard / steal from the poor)!..

 

[there4eyeM]

In the U.S military, one swears allegiance to the Constitution, not to "'orders".

Anyone who disagrees with this does not know anything about entering into military service and the moral obligations implicit. The fact is, a soldier is legally obliged to disobey any command that he knows to be a violation of the basic laws of the land.

 

[JoeB131]

Sure, people believed in something greater than themselves. It's basic human manipulation, if you give people guns, you better make sure they're not going to figure out what's real.

I also find it funny that you've written things like "I'm not sure you'd understand the concept" and "I doubt you'd have last ten minutes"... telling people they're "the best" is one of the basic concepts of manipulation. Look at the Russians, their elite units were told they were the elite units, and in the Ukraine they didn't last very long, it was all image.

Image is everything, substance is nothing.

Weren't you the one who spent a whole thread whining about how the Chinese were going to "Get us All?"

Be glad better men than you are out there defending this country.

The problem in the Ukraine, of course, was the Russian troops didn't want to be there any more than the Ukrainians wanted them there. But they've still managed to grind the war down to a stalemate. Ukraine is only being held afloat because we are pouring more weapons into the place.

 

[JoeB131]

Anyone who disagrees with this does not know anything about entering into military service and the moral obligations implicit. The fact is, a soldier is legally obliged to disobey any command that he knows to be a violation of the basic laws of the land.

In theory, you are absolutely correct.

In practice, you have something like Abu Grahib, where a bunch of soldiers engaged in massive violations of prisoner's rights because one E-4 was a prison guard in civilian life and told them this was the way to handle prisoners. The officers above them thought they were getting actionable intelligence.

Oh, none of the officers in the chain of command were found guilty of any crimes. Only the enlisted went to prison.

 

[the other mike]

i don't put much stock in numerology

Americanism.
(Not numerology)

 

[frigidweirdo]

Weren't you the one who spent a whole thread whining about how the Chinese were going to "Get us All?"

Be glad better men than you are out there defending this country.

The problem in the Ukraine, of course, was the Russian troops didn't want to be there any more than the Ukrainians wanted them there. But they've still managed to grind the war down to a stalemate. Ukraine is only being held afloat because we are pouring more weapons into the place.

No, I was probably someone who was making a decent argument, and all you read was "the Chinese are going to get us all"

You can lead some whores to water.....

Are those defending the country better than me? Is going off to an immoral war simply because some politician says so being a "better person"?

No, not really. It's just what the army tells you, pumps it through your head "You're in the army, therefore you must be good, in fact, you're bloody fantastic, and if you die, we'll give you a medal, hows that?"

That's not me saying people in the army are bad, not me saying there aren't better people than me in the army, also not be saying there aren't worse people than me, because 100% sure there are some total and utter fuckheads in the army, it attracts such people because they'd struggle to get a job in the real world.

What I'm saying is that your indoctrination is obvious.

The problem with Russia is that people don't have a choice. Putin isn't a good person, he's the sort who wants to be remembered for taking land, just like Catherine the Great and other Russian leaders, and, of course, Lenin and Stalin for making the USSR how it was.

Leaders have visions of grandeur and they need armies full of people who will die for them to get that. They don't actually give two rats's asses about those men, they only care that their deaths don't cause them problems. In the US they need to "care", or be seen to be caring, but in Russia, Putin controls the media, so they get what he tells them to get.


Putin doesn't need to manipulate the armed forces as much, because he manipulates the people a lot more in general, and he has an iron fist, don't fight, have PROBLEMOS or however a Russian would say that.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

citation needed

"Democratic Republic" Is a Contradiction in Terms

I cite the ruling class's Constitution, which empowers the same know-it-all, do-it-all politicians that Constitution-bangers are always complaining about.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

what's wrong with just stating the experience of a life long of watching news as my 'citation'?

a citation would just allow you to attack the article/book i mentioned, to narrow down this general discussion to that specific book/article.
that's not what i want to achieve here. i want to compare life experiences.

Links Are Part of a Chain of Command

The Sphinx that stinks
As it slinks
And clinks its links
Before it drinks
The mind of anyone
Who links
And it shrinks
From anyone
Who blinks
And then thinks

 

[JoeB131]

No, I was probably someone who was making a decent argument, and all you read was "the Chinese are going to get us all"

Naw, the argument was a lot of paranoia before you blathered into some racist shit about how Asians are "different' than us. Then you ran away like a little chicken shit when Ic called you on it.

Are those defending the country better than me? Is going off to an immoral war simply because some politician says so being a "better person"?

Yes, someone who defends his country is far better than someone who sits around whining about the country while enjoying the benefits of living here.

No, not really. It's just what the army tells you, pumps it through your head "You're in the army, therefore you must be good, in fact, you're bloody fantastic, and if you die, we'll give you a medal, hows that?"

That's not me saying people in the army are bad, not me saying there aren't better people than me in the army, also not be saying there aren't worse people than me, because 100% sure there are some total and utter fuckheads in the army, it attracts such people because they'd struggle to get a job in the real world.

I met some true fuckheads when I was in the army. Every last one of them was a better person than you are. That you have no sense of honor or duty, but are happy to send off someone else's kid to fight the evil Chinese tells me all we need to know about you.

And quite the contrary, the main reason why the military is having so many problems with numbers is so many people don't qualify even after they lower the standards. Only 23% of young people meet the physical and mental standards required to join.

Only 23% of Americans 17-24 qualify for military service

EL PASO, Texas (KTSM) – New figures from the U.S. Dept. of Defense show that less than a quarter of Americans of prime recruiting age are eligible to serve in the military. The most recent da…

www.ktsm.com

What I'm saying is that your indoctrination is obvious.

The problem with Russia is that people don't have a choice. Putin isn't a good person, he's the sort who wants to be remembered for taking land, just like Catherine the Great and other Russian leaders, and, of course, Lenin and Stalin for making the USSR how it was.

Actually, Putin wants to have Russians in Russia. His overall point wasn't wrong, the Donbass and Crimea are ethnically Russian and SHOULD be part of Russia. The way he went about it was wrong, though.

Leaders have visions of grandeur and they need armies full of people who will die for them to get that. They don't actually give two rats's asses about those men, they only care that their deaths don't cause them problems. In the US they need to "care", or be seen to be caring, but in Russia, Putin controls the media, so they get what he tells them to get.

Again, dummy, every war we have ever gotten into we got into with the full support of the people. Remember after 9/11 when everyone was wearing those flag pins? When a war drags on and on with no resolution, that's when people get tired of it. Even World War II, as much as we romanticize it, people were weary of it by 1945.

Putin doesn't need to manipulate the armed forces as much, because he manipulates the people a lot more in general, and he has an iron fist, don't fight, have PROBLEMOS or however a Russian would say that.

Actually, Putin is ordering mobilizations because young people aren't signing up. He's emptying his prisons to meet manpower needs.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Naw, the argument was a lot of paranoia before you blathered into some racist shit about how Asians are "different' than us. Then you ran away like a little chicken shit when Ic called you on it.

Yes, someone who defends his country is far better than someone who sits around whining about the country while enjoying the benefits of living here.



I met some true fuckheads when I was in the army. Every last one of them was a better person than you are. That you have no sense of honor or duty, but are happy to send off someone else's kid to fight the evil Chinese tells me all we need to know about you.

And quite the contrary, the main reason why the military is having so many problems with numbers is so many people don't qualify even after they lower the standards. Only 23% of young people meet the physical and mental standards required to join.

Only 23% of Americans 17-24 qualify for military service

EL PASO, Texas (KTSM) – New figures from the U.S. Dept. of Defense show that less than a quarter of Americans of prime recruiting age are eligible to serve in the military. The most recent da…

www.ktsm.com

Actually, Putin wants to have Russians in Russia. His overall point wasn't wrong, the Donbass and Crimea are ethnically Russian and SHOULD be part of Russia. The way he went about it was wrong, though.




Again, dummy, every war we have ever gotten into we got into with the full support of the people. Remember after 9/11 when everyone was wearing those flag pins? When a war drags on and on with no resolution, that's when people get tired of it. Even World War II, as much as we romanticize it, people were weary of it by 1945.



Actually, Putin is ordering mobilizations because young people aren't signing up. He's emptying his prisons to meet manpower needs.

Got past the first few words. Can't be bothered with the rest. Bye

 

[JoeB131]

Got past the first few words. Can't be bothered with the rest. Bye

Stop being a racist twatnoodle, and I'll stop calling you on it.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Stop being a racist twatnoodle, and I'll stop calling you on it.

Welcome to the ignore list.

 

[JoeB131]

Welcome to the ignore list.

Not my fault you say racist shit like "Asians are different than us".