Samson
Póg Mo Thóin
What "conservative dogma, blindly hostile to everything public sector," would account for the widespread hatred of teachers claimed in the OP?
Why Do Americans Love to Blame Teachers?
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What "conservative dogma, blindly hostile to everything public sector," would account for the widespread hatred of teachers claimed in the OP?
Samson
Póg Mo Thóin
So, how does the "creation of a minority white nation" cause teachers to be universally hated?
Wouldn't minorities not hate teachers in your "minority white nation?"
Samson
Póg Mo Thóin
Depends.
How would you isolate teacher tenure-ship from every other variable that enters the mysterious equation that = better state to get an education? For example, should number of poor students in the state make any difference? What about expenditures per student.
Also, what is the definition of a "better state?"
To judge a state's educational quality only on the basis of number tenured teachers is a little silly.
regent
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So when did Progressives take over America's educational system? And another date would be helpful, when was America's educational system at its peak, it's best? Do you have any idea of those periods?
"The bottom line is that teachers are selected by politicians, what is taught is selected by politicans, what textbooks are used is a political decision and on down the line."
Well its hard to make sense of this but most teachers are hired by principals so by that dfn you must be lumping principals into politicians. I strongly believe most principals are in it for the best interests of the kids and select those teachers that will be best for the kids. But when you are looking at a profession where a very high achieving person is settling for a mere PITTANCE for wages we are lucky to have what we have... at least where I live.
Well its hard to make sense of this but most teachers are hired by principals so by that dfn you must be lumping principals into politicians. I strongly believe most principals are in it for the best interests of the kids and select those teachers that will be best for the kids. But when you are looking at a profession where a very high achieving person is settling for a mere PITTANCE for wages we are lucky to have what we have... at least where I live.
Samson
Póg Mo Thóin
If Conservatives were doing such a great job with our educational system, then how did "Progressives take over our educational system?"
Rikurzhen
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Because teachers are NOT delivering equal outcomes and they're not creating nice Wally & Beaver schools. Someone has to be blamed for the deteriorating quality of schools in neighborhoods that find themselves on the margin.
People in upper class neighborhoods seem to like their schools and teachers. The hatred has two distinct flavors: 1.) the public hates teachers as a class but upper and upper middle class parents like their kids' teachers, and 2.) the parents who are caught in neighborhoods/schools in demographic transition where once successful schools are now failing and these parents point at teachers because it would be racist to blame the actual cause of the failure.
Minorities blame teachers too. They want teachers to perform magic and teachers can't do that.
In the other education thread that is running right now, someone posted an article about the success Finland has in turning out good students and the entire article focuses on methods and doesn't mention the demographics of Finland:
| Number | % | Number | % | Number | % | Number | % | Number | % | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Finnish | 4,675,223 | 93.53% | 4,754,787 | 92.92% | 4,788,497 | 92.42% | 4,819,819 | 91.71% | 4,869,362 | 89.33% |
| Swedish | 296,738 | 5.94% | 294,664 | 5.76% | 291,657 | 5.63% | 289,675 | 5.51% | 290,910 | 5.34% |
| Russian | 3,884 | 0.08% | 15,872 | 0.31% | 28,205 | 0.54% | 39,653 | 0.75% | 66,379 | 1.22% |
| Estonian | 1,394 | 0.03% | 8,710 | 0.17% | 10,176 | 0.2% | 15,336 | 0.29% | 42,936 | 0.79% |
| Somali | 0 | 0% | 4,057 | 0.08% | 6,454 | 0.12% | 8,593 | 0.16% | 15,789 | 0.29% |
| English | 3,569 | 0.07% | 5,324 | 0.1% | 6,919 | 0.13% | 8,928 | 0.17% | 15,570 | 0.29% |
| Arabic | 1,138 | 0.02% | 2,901 | 0.06% | 4,892 | 0.09% | 7,117 | 0.14% | 13,170 | 0.24% |
| Kurdish | 179 | 0% | 1,381 | 0.03% | 3,115 | 0.06% | 5,123 | 0.1% | 10,075 | 0.18% |
| Chinese | 790 | 0.02% | 2,190 | 0.04% | 2,907 | 0.06% | 4,613 | 0.09% | 9,496 | 0.17% |
| Albanian | 0 | 0% | 2,019 | 0.04% | 3,293 | 0.06% | 5,076 | 0.1% | 8,214 | 0.13% |
| Thai | 244 | 0% | 813 | 0.02% | 1,458 | 0.03% | 3,033 | 0.06% | 7,513 | 0.14% |
| Persian | 291 | 0.01% | 803 | 0.02% | 1,205 | 0.02% | 3,165 | 0.06% | 7,281 | 0.13% |
| Vietnamese | 1,643 | 0.03% | 2,785 | 0.05% | 3,588 | 0.07% | 4,202 | 0.08% | 6,991 | 0.13% |
Samson
Póg Mo Thóin
Thanks for the chart showing that most people in Finland are Finnish.
Really, I believe you when you claim that they are white.
It seems more than a little disingenuous to claim teachers are widely hated because they are bending over backward for minority students ignoring "American Values," and then also claim that, "Minorities blame teachers too. They want teachers to perform magic and teachers can't do that." Not certain what "Magic" you are referring to, but you offer nothing to prove minority achievement is decreasing in public schools.
Not everywhere Taz, there are States and regions within States that truly perform well with their Public Schools, like in Massachusetts.....but no State or district is without some failures....
But in most cases I would not blame the teachers, most are doing what the admin or Board of Directors or what congress or federal Congressmen have told and trained them to do for good performance testing ratings and financial gain, and that is to "teach to the test"....I think things have gotten worse since no child left behind and not too much better in many places....but that's just my personal opinion not based on any facts that I have read or seen....
I got an excellent Public school and/or school on Military bases when we lived overseas education. My mom didn't work, so she was on my sister and I like butter on bread, to do our homework before any television or going outside to play....
Teachers were NOT limited by teaching to a test.
LOT'S of things have changed...which is what is done now....nor were school boards so involved with the politics, and PTA was a big thing....
Blaming the teachers is a COP OUT in most cases.... they are the one person the parents see once a semester, if at all....so if something is wrong with the school system then the teachers are easiest to blame, and not the government, or the School Board, or the School Administrator, or the Raise structure or school funding structure that incentives, teaching to a test. I have no problem with the idea of testing, but not certain the way they have this set u with schoos getting more money if they test well and less money if they don't, is really working out that well or the unintended consequences have become clear now....teachers are required to teach to a test, so that their schools can get more money....
Rikurzhen
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Can a teacher be very intelligent and high achieving? Most certainly this can be the case of an individual teacher. Is it fair to describe the teaching profession as one filled with "high achieving" people? No, that's not fair if we use SAT scores as an indicator of achievement. Education majors (1442) are equidistant between construction workers (1274) and Liberal Arts students (1613).
Rikurzhen
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Let's keep the argument I'm making straight. My point was that school and/or aggregate student performance is declining. I'm arguing that this is a result of demographic change, not teacher performance slipping over time. Simply put, as the minority population in a school increases, school performance will decrease, even if the performance of the individual groups remains constant or even improves. This is an application of the Yule-Simpson Effect:
In probability and statistics, Simpson's paradox, or the Yule–Simpson effect, is a paradox in which a trend that appears in different groups of data disappears when these groups are combined, and the reverse trend appears for the aggregate data.
Look at this chart - America's Asian students are almost the best in the world, American's white students are almost the best in the world, America's Hispanic students ARE THE BEST in the world. The black-box of schooling is doing a pretty good job in America. The source of our failure is not schools, it's the mix of students, that's why we keep sinking in international comparisons.
regent
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Schools like many institutions are staffed by teachers looking to advance up the administrative ladder, and for some that ladder requires they become politicians. Were it my option I would classify school principals as politicians, they answer to the powers above not to those below. Now there is nothing wrong with that but it is one of those school things similar to other government agencies. The bottom line, the teacher for better or worse, lives in the classroom, a classroom with lots of kids, and not a principal's office.
Samson
Póg Mo Thóin
So what?
The Topic of the tread is Why teachers are hated. You say that performance is declining, but then offer "America's Hispanic students ARE THE BEST in the world." Are teachers hated because Hispanic students do well? A post ago you said that minorities resented the fact the "Magic" was not happening.
You just contradicted yourself.
Then you say the source of our "failure" is the "mix of students." What? Should we ONLY HAVE HISPANIC STUDENTS? Then will teachers be loved?
This racially based argument seems to be a fixation, but any argument that it is the root cause of the public's hatred of teachers is hyperbolic at best.
saveliberty
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Know who teachers dislike? Administrators.
Rikurzhen
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Here are the uncorrected scores:
People hate teachers because they're not delivering the goods. America used to be #1. WTF is wrong with teachers, why are they letting us down? Look at how dismally the US is doing. It's all the teacher's fault, and we spend so much money on education, too, and they're just screwing it all up. That's why people hate teachers.
Except, it's not teachers' fault. Look at the corrected scores.
Samson
Póg Mo Thóin
Finally.
However you ignore the main point in the OP: American Students have no appreciation (culture) for education.
You could pay teachers more. You could have genius teachers. You could have the best "SYSTEM."
Students simply don't give a fuck.
Samson
Póg Mo Thóin
Another worthwhile thread.
Rikurzhen
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But Wally and Beaver still give a fuck. It's still possible to get a good education from public schools, some school systems are excellent and their students are engaged. This though really isn't a function of schools or teachers, but of students.
As we push downward from the peaks of excellence, that's where I think we get into the territory that you're talking about. Middle class schools are running into problems due to the cultural signals that education is for nerds. Here is where teacher influence can play a part and as is usually the case, any time a feminist comes within a hundred miles of public policy, disaster and screw-ups are sure to turn up:
The other report, "Trends in Educational Equity of Girls and Women: 2004," is from the Education Department. Between 1992 and 2002, among high school seniors, girls lost two points in reading scores and boys six points, leaving a 16-point differential in their averages on tests given by the National Assessment of Educational Progress. In the fall semester of kindergarten in 1998, on a different test, girls outperformed boys by 0.9 points. By the spring semester, the difference had nearly doubled, to 1.6 points.
Although one might expect the schools to be trying hard to make reading appealing to boys, the K-12 literature curriculum may in fact be contributing to the problem. It has long been known that there are strong differences between boys and girls in their literary preferences. According to reading interest surveys, both boys and girls are unlikely to choose books based on an "issues" approach, and children are not interested in reading about ways to reform society -- or themselves. But boys prefer adventure tales, war, sports and historical nonfiction, while girls prefer stories about personal relationships and fantasy. Moreover, when given choices, boys do not choose stories that feature girls, while girls frequently select stories that appeal to boys.
Unfortunately, the textbooks and literature assigned in the elementary grades do not reflect the dispositions of male students. Few strong and active male role models can be found as lead characters. Gone are the inspiring biographies of the most important American presidents, inventors, scientists and entrepreneurs. No military valor, no high adventure. On the other hand, stories about adventurous and brave women abound. Publishers seem to be more interested in avoiding "masculine" perspectives or "stereotypes" than in getting boys to like what they are assigned to read.
At the middle school level, the kind of quality literature that might appeal to boys has been replaced by Young Adult Literature, that is, easy-to-read, short novels about teenagers and problems such as drug addiction, teenage pregnancy, alcoholism, domestic violence, divorced parents and bullying. Older literary fare has also been replaced by something called "culturally relevant" literature -- texts that appeal to students' ethnic group identification on the assumption that sharing the leading character's ethnicity will motivate them to read.
There is no evidence whatsoever that either of these types of reading fare has turned boys into lifelong readers or learners. On the contrary, the evidence is accumulating that by the time they go on to high school, boys have lost their interest in reading about the fictional lives, thoughts and feelings of mature individuals in works written in high-quality prose, and they are no longer motivated by an exciting plot to persist in the struggle they will have with the vocabulary that goes with it.
Although one might expect the schools to be trying hard to make reading appealing to boys, the K-12 literature curriculum may in fact be contributing to the problem. It has long been known that there are strong differences between boys and girls in their literary preferences. According to reading interest surveys, both boys and girls are unlikely to choose books based on an "issues" approach, and children are not interested in reading about ways to reform society -- or themselves. But boys prefer adventure tales, war, sports and historical nonfiction, while girls prefer stories about personal relationships and fantasy. Moreover, when given choices, boys do not choose stories that feature girls, while girls frequently select stories that appeal to boys.
Unfortunately, the textbooks and literature assigned in the elementary grades do not reflect the dispositions of male students. Few strong and active male role models can be found as lead characters. Gone are the inspiring biographies of the most important American presidents, inventors, scientists and entrepreneurs. No military valor, no high adventure. On the other hand, stories about adventurous and brave women abound. Publishers seem to be more interested in avoiding "masculine" perspectives or "stereotypes" than in getting boys to like what they are assigned to read.
At the middle school level, the kind of quality literature that might appeal to boys has been replaced by Young Adult Literature, that is, easy-to-read, short novels about teenagers and problems such as drug addiction, teenage pregnancy, alcoholism, domestic violence, divorced parents and bullying. Older literary fare has also been replaced by something called "culturally relevant" literature -- texts that appeal to students' ethnic group identification on the assumption that sharing the leading character's ethnicity will motivate them to read.
There is no evidence whatsoever that either of these types of reading fare has turned boys into lifelong readers or learners. On the contrary, the evidence is accumulating that by the time they go on to high school, boys have lost their interest in reading about the fictional lives, thoughts and feelings of mature individuals in works written in high-quality prose, and they are no longer motivated by an exciting plot to persist in the struggle they will have with the vocabulary that goes with it.
It's more important to push positive female role models even if this results in turning boys off of reading. Think about that. Social engineering is more important than education. Here is another reason that teachers are hated - they're the agents of social revolution - pushing agendas to an unreceptive audience at the EXPENSE of student learning.
So when you say that students don't give a fuck, some of the above is what they don't give a fuck about. How wants to read about a girl dealing with an alcoholic mother who hits her? Not many boys, that's for sure. They want to read about General Patton or some good war stories or spy stories or adventure stories. Socially relevant literature is on overdrive in schools compared to the old days.
Samson
Póg Mo Thóin
Terrific, but that's not what was found in the OP, nor is it much of a sampling of the aggregate.
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