Why Can't the Pro-Choice Crowd Be Honest?

[Immanuel]

REPORTED rape victims. REPORTED. Obviously you DO believe everything you read on the net. I thought so.

Those numbers are from the abortion industry itself, genius

Yeah? Written by whom? Pro Lifers, GENIUS?

Grace get a grip!

Your stats have nothing to do with abortion.

AGI (The Alan Guttmacher Institute) is an arm of Planned Parenthood. There is absolutely nothing Pro-life about AGI or PP.

About the Guttmacher Institute

About the Guttmacher Institute

Four decades after its creation, the Guttmacher Institute continues to advance sexual and reproductive health in the United States and worldwide through an interrelated program of social science research, policy analysis and public education designed to generate new ideas, encourage enlightened public debate and promote sound policy and program development.

The Institute produces a wide range of resources on topics pertaining to sexual and reproductive health, including International Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health (formerly International Family Planning Perspectives), the Guttmacher Policy Review and Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health. In 2009, Guttmacher was designated an official Collaborating Center for Reproductive Health by the World Health Organization and its regional office, the Pan American Health Organization.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

no it hasn't.

Ever heard of margaret sanger?

Another lie of yours easily disproven. Abortion was around long before your hero Sanger.

History of abortion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think but can't swear to it that what he meant was that abortion has always been part of the eugenics movement. And, I suspect that he is probably right on that.

So, be my guest and sue him if he didn't word his post quite right.

Immie

 

[Zoom-boing]

They are human at conception because that is how we've named them and nothing more. A fertilized egg is not a person. Aborting it is not murdering a person.

Humans conceive humans. From the beginning it is human. They're not human because '"that's what we've named them", they're human because HUMANS BEGET HUMANS. How utterly stupid are you that you can't just admit this? It's not a dog or a cat or an acorn . . it is a human. It is a life that is in one of the very earliest stages of development and abortion is the killing/ending/destruction of a human life. It isn't considered murder because it has been made legal. That doesn't change the fact of what abortion does.

You're right. Humans do create other humans via breeding. However, there is one distinct thing in all societies as well as theologies that define what it is specifically to be "human".

It's called free will, and your soul. Animals must act by instinct, and, many theologies that say the thing that separates us from the animals is that small piece of God called our soul.

Scientifically speaking, it's also the point where we finally develop a nervous sytem and a brain that is programmed to act with free will.

So no.........it's not "human" until it's developed a nervous sytem, sometime after the 40 day mark.

Unless, you're a staunch supporter of the GOP and think that being soul less is "human".

I believe the soul enters the body at the moment of conception. The soul is the spirit of the human ... what makes them who they are and that it is there from the moment they are conceived. I also believe that 'free will' and your 'soul' are two different things. A 45 day old fetus has no more 'free will' than an infant as both are dependent upon others and can't not do for themselves in any way. Did you ever see a new baby at the moment they discover that that thing waving in front of their eyes (their hand) is part of them? It's the most amazing thing. You can nearly see the synapses forming in their brains! That's when they start to become truly self-aware, imo.

While we will likely never see eye to eye on this it's refreshing to be able to converse and share our thoughts on it without the naming calling and flaming that usually happens in these types of threads. Thanks for that, Rob!

 

[Grace]

I got fed up with his thread hippity hoppity prancings, always stating the same thing about it being the womans fault. Takes two to tango. Dont see him bitching out the guys to keep their dicks in their drawers, do ya? He isnt indignant about abortions. Hes just on a ******* witch hunt. So I lost my temper, then slapped his sorry ass on ignore. NOW Ill be able to read and digest more informative information instead of him asking if I wanna be raped and he will be right over, or for me to keep my legs closed, or how about if he shoots me in the face. Idiot mumble jumble that is now hidden.

So do carry on with the discussion. At least it might be semi readable now for me.

 

[Vanquish]

IMEURU, your reply, while heartfelt, is looking for blame somewhere. I can't speak for the OP, but for me being pro-life isn't about blaming the woman. You are absolutely right that it takes two to tango. It's both parents' fault if they don't think through the consequences. But the focus need not be on fault.

The focus should be on the biology. Some excellent things were said early on in this thread.

1. A baby is a human life
2. A baby, while inside the mother is separate from the mother
3. If left untouched, the child will grow to be viable. (the vast majority of the time)

I'm not religious at all - and my pro-life beliefs have nothing to do with religion especially. It's simply logical that abortion is murder once you realize the 3 facts above.

Are there special cases when the doctor thinks that the only medically safe course is to have an abortion? Yes. And that should be taken into account. A mother's immediate medical health is important too.

The problem is when abortion used like contraceptive - in the sense of fixing a "mistake" (not that any child should ever be seen as a mistake). Once fertilization occurs...there's no fixing the mistake except with murder.

IMEURU, please don't take my words as an attack on you. I'm speaking in the abstract. No woman should be hounded about abortion and treated evilly. I must, however, agree with those who say that if the child were 1 or 2 and it was killed...everyone would be up in arms.

I really wish humans had evolved so that the pregnancy stomach was clear...if that were the case, we wouldnt think of the baby as this "thing" that we can put out of our brains...but instead a living, breathing child that deserves protection.

 

[Immanuel]

I got fed up with his thread hippity hoppity prancings, always stating the same thing about it being the womans fault. Takes two to tango. Dont see him bitching out the guys to keep their dicks in their drawers, do ya? He isnt indignant about abortions. Hes just on a ******* witch hunt. So I lost my temper, then slapped his sorry ass on ignore. NOW Ill be able to read and digest more informative information instead of him asking if I wanna be raped and he will be right over, or for me to keep my legs closed, or how about if he shoots me in the face. Idiot mumble jumble that is now hidden.

So do carry on with the discussion. At least it might be semi readable now for me.

He is actually on your side of the fence on this from what I understand. However, he enjoys pushing everyone's buttons. That is just the way he is. When he starts pushing my buttons, I tend to quit reading his posts as well.

As long as people continue to respond to him, I expect him to keep this going.

Immie

 

[Ravi]

I got fed up with his thread hippity hoppity prancings, always stating the same thing about it being the womans fault. Takes two to tango. Dont see him bitching out the guys to keep their dicks in their drawers, do ya? He isnt indignant about abortions. Hes just on a ******* witch hunt. So I lost my temper, then slapped his sorry ass on ignore. NOW Ill be able to read and digest more informative information instead of him asking if I wanna be raped and he will be right over, or for me to keep my legs closed, or how about if he shoots me in the face. Idiot mumble jumble that is now hidden.

So do carry on with the discussion. At least it might be semi readable now for me.

I think he has a fetish for rape and murder and this is the easiest way for him to keep bringing up those topics.

Kind of like a pedo hanging around a park.

 

[Grace]

IMEURU, your reply, while heartfelt, is looking for blame somewhere. I can't speak for the OP, but for me being pro-life isn't about blaming the woman. You are absolutely right that it takes two to tango. It's both parents' fault if they don't think through the consequences. But the focus need not be on fault.

The focus should be on the biology. Some excellent things were said early on in this thread.

1. A baby is a human life
2. A baby, while inside the mother is separate from the mother
3. If left untouched, the child will grow to be viable. (the vast majority of the time)

I'm not religious at all - and my pro-life beliefs have nothing to do with religion especially. It's simply logical that abortion is murder once you realize the 3 facts above.

Are there special cases when the doctor thinks that the only medically safe course is to have an abortion? Yes. And that should be taken into account. A mother's immediate medical health is important too.

The problem is when abortion used like contraceptive - in the sense of fixing a "mistake" (not that any child should ever be seen as a mistake). Once fertilization occurs...there's no fixing the mistake except with murder.

IMEURU, please don't take my words as an attack on you. I'm speaking in the abstract. No woman should be hounded about abortion and treated evilly. I must, however, agree with those who say that if the child were 1 or 2 and it was killed...everyone would be up in arms.

I really wish humans had evolved so that the pregnancy stomach was clear...if that were the case, we wouldnt think of the baby as this "thing" that we can put out of our brains...but instead a living, breathing child that deserves protection.

No, Im not taking it as an attack. You are speaking to me in terms that make me human, had an abortion because I was the "one percent" due to rape. The other guy then asked if I wanted to be raped (again using it as a weapon on something I prefer to forget), and in general reliving what I already survived. All I said initially is, "having an abortion is NOT an easy choice". And choice it is. And no, its not easy.

Conerning the percentages of who gets an abortion and why is no longer being discussed anyway. Whats being discussed is when a fetus is considered a human being with rights. The net and the world at large ALL have differing views about that. Nobody is sure. They all go with their own gut instincts on how they feel about it themselves. Personal opinions. Personal choices of when the egg becomes human. For me...its prior to the heart being formed and beginning to pump....and the first brain waves forming circuits. I had my abortion as soon as I found out the results of the "invasion" (which was thrown in my face as an "inconvenience" to carry it because its "human" and I am a baby killer and can he shoot me in the face). All these words brought it all back. I got reamed by a few posters, accused of this and that, and made to feel all over again what I felt so many years ago. At first it hurt. Then I got pissed. Then I calmed down. Then I got pissed off more. Right now..Im at ease because for the first time, I have someone on ignore. NOW I can read what others think but that wont change what I did, why I did it or what my opinion is concerning when a seed planted becomes one with an egg which then becomes a human being.

 

[Grace]

And furthermore...it matters not to me when it becomes human to my thinking. I didnt want it growing in my body. Period. And Id do it again.

 

[Shadow]

And furthermore...it matters not to me when it becomes human to my thinking. I didnt want it growing in my body. Period. And Id do it again.

Sooo...now that you have decided that his discussion is going to be all about you,is everyone just supposed to stop talking about it now or something since it uspets you??

 

[Grace]

And furthermore...it matters not to me when it becomes human to my thinking. I didnt want it growing in my body. Period. And Id do it again.

Sooo...now that you have decided that his discussion is going to be all about you,is everyone just supposed to stop talking about it now or something since it uspets you??

Nope. Continue bickering amongst yourselves on when a seed entering an egg becomes human. Or start another Palin thread so the whole front of the board is thread after thread of the same subject. Whatever floats yer boat.

 

[AllieBaba]

And furthermore...it matters not to me when it becomes human to my thinking. I didnt want it growing in my body. Period. And Id do it again.

So you think you have the right to eliminate people who get in your way?

Of course, that's what all people who support abortion think.

 

[Vanquish]

And furthermore...it matters not to me when it becomes human to my thinking. I didnt want it growing in my body. Period. And Id do it again.

Sooo...now that you have decided that his discussion is going to be all about you,is everyone just supposed to stop talking about it now or something since it uspets you??

Nope. Continue bickering amongst yourselves on when a seed entering an egg becomes human. Or start another Palin thread so the whole front of the board is thread after thread of the same subject. Whatever floats yer boat.

IMEURE, Come on now. That was a good attempt at deflection...and to rationalizing your choice by making the science trivial...but you're failing, hon. That's like saying "continue bickering about whether the star that's 93 million miles away is in the center of the galaxy or the spheroid mass we live on is." You made it sound boring and inconsequential - but the truth is...it's neither.

If left alone, will the seed entering the egg become human? Yes. The moment they fertilize it's human. You seem to want to avoid that little truth.

I dont want to demonize you for your choice when you can't take it back. I'm sure it's a really sad thing to think about...and you followed your conscience at the time. But this thread is what it is...and I still havent seen anyone who can refute the logic of the facts that abortion is the murder of a human being.

Your aggressive (I could have used a different adjective, mind you) comment that basically you've got the power to stop something you don't like doesn't help your arguments. I don't like Glenn Beck and with my 30-06 or my .45 I could stop him from growing/living too. Just because you can, doesn't make it right.

 

[Anguille]

Now hold on there a sec. Having an abortion is not an easy thing to do. It is no picnic, I guarantee you. I dont have to defend myself when it comes to my body. Wanna call me a murderer? Go ahead. Ive called myself much worse when I had it done many many MANY years ago. Its nobodies business why I had it done and I answer to nobody on why I did it.

Say what you will. Unless you are a woman....you have no clue.

Oh please -no more of the "no one but a woman can understand it" BULLSHIT! Are you SERIOUSLY saying that only another WOMAN could possibly understand whatever rationale you told yourself before getting an abortion? That must mean you think the people who cannot possibly understand are MEN, just ignorant men who have no idea what its like to find themselves pregnant at an inconvenient time of life whether that issue of convenience has to do with location, job, personal relationship, finances, waking up on the wrong side of the bed or any possible combination etc. etc. Only a WOMAN could possibly understand being saddled with a kid they would rather see dead, right? Only a WOMAN would understand your belief that the value of another human life is determined by someone other than the owner of that life? Does that also mean you value the opinion of women over that of men when it comes to the issue of abortion itself?

I don't care what your personal situation was and I don't care what kind of justifications you had to tell yourself to get an abortion -it is IRRELEVANT to this discussion. So you had an abortion and disposed of your own child like the trash it was to you. Does the fact that was your own personal value judgment on the life of your own child place any obligation on everyone else to agree with those justifications or try to convince themselves as well that the youngest of human lives just don't count as a human life? Does that mean because YOU had an abortion and then smugly claim "unless you are a woman..." THAT somehow MEANS something in this discussion? Why would the fact you chose to have an abortion have a damn thing to do with this discussion about the fact it is a human life being killed? Do you SERIOUSLY expect others to agree with you that the true value of another human life is properly determined by someone who doesn't even own it and if someone who doesn't own that life decides it is trash everyone else must agree with that as well -just because that is what you did? Oh and then lay that piece of crap bullshit that no one could possibly understand why that is ok except another WOMAN? Are you for real?

What I as a WOMAN really DO understand is your defensiveness about what you did and why you feel the need to continue defending it in your own mind instead of coming to grips with the horror and immorality of what you did and realize you never did have a "right" to take the life of your child just because its existence was inconvenient for you at the moment. Its easier to tell yourself it was a good, humane, decent and moral decision and then brush it off as "unless you are a woman..." bullshit. As a woman I really do understand why you are doing that but not because I am a woman -rationalizing the bad decisions we make in life is NOT restricted to just one gender!

Apparently you are under the impression it is women who would most understand (and approve) your decision to have an abortion, that it is WOMEN who would most agree with you that if you decide the life of your own child is trash it is ok to dispose of it like trash. Guess again. It isn't WOMEN who are most likely to agree and support your decision to kill your own child. The majority of all women oppose abortion on demand and the overwhelming majority of women who have had a baby oppose it -probably because it is impossible to deny that the person inside them really is a human and not a theoretical guppy after all. It is SINGLE MEN who support abortion on demand! Gee, I wonder why that is. By the way, that is also strongly correlated to why the number one cause of death for a pregnant woman changed from "accidents" and "complications of pregnancy" prior to Roe v. Wade to HOMICIDE in less than a decade following that ruling. Homicide that is almost without exception at the hands of their baby's father when he gets really, really pissed off when the woman refuses to have an abortion at HIS demand and he really, really wants his kid dead and out of his way! Being pregnant when the daddy wants his kid dead is a dangerous time for a woman.

67% of all women who have abortions say they were pressured into getting one against their will by the father. Women who oppose a man exercising his "right" to an abortion on HIS demand increase their own risk of death. Abortion on demand protects MEN -and the life of your child doesn't even enter into the equation. Just because you chose to end the life of your child for reasons you think only another woman could possibly understand in NO way obligates ANYONE to support your decision to do it. And it is WOMEN themselves who are the LEAST likely to do so.

I couldn't bring myself to finish reading this hateful post.
Add Frazz to the list of monstrous harpies in this thread.

 

[Grace]

And furthermore...it matters not to me when it becomes human to my thinking. I didnt want it growing in my body. Period. And Id do it again.

So you think you have the right to eliminate people who get in your way?

Of course, that's what all people who support abortion think.

Youre damn ******* right I have the right to eliminate people I was forced to host in MY BODY.

 

[Qball]

So you think you have the right to eliminate people who get in your way?

Of course, that's what all people who support abortion think.

Youre damn ******* right I have the right to eliminate people I was forced to host in MY BODY.

You act like fetuses willingly crawl into the uterus and set up camp for nine months. You have every right to not host another human in your body, but that means not getting pregnant in the first place. The situation necessarily changes after the fact. Saying "it's MY BODY" is beside the point. Nobody's confused about whose body it is. But if you get pregnant with a child you don't want, whose fault is that?

 

[Grace]

frazzledgear=

 

[Grace]

Youre damn ******* right I have the right to eliminate people I was forced to host in MY BODY.

You act like fetuses willingly crawl into the uterus and set up camp for nine months. You have every right to not host another human in your body, but that means not getting pregnant in the first place. The situation necessarily changes after the fact. Saying "it's MY BODY" is beside the point. Nobody's confused about whose body it is. But if you get pregnant with a child you don't want, whose fault is that?

Try reading the thread before opening your yapper. I was raped, asshole.

 

[Immanuel]

Youre damn ******* right I have the right to eliminate people I was forced to host in MY BODY.

You act like fetuses willingly crawl into the uterus and set up camp for nine months. You have every right to not host another human in your body, but that means not getting pregnant in the first place. The situation necessarily changes after the fact. Saying "it's MY BODY" is beside the point. Nobody's confused about whose body it is. But if you get pregnant with a child you don't want, whose fault is that?

Just a "head's up":

In 99% of the cases of abortion you are right, however, maybe you have not followed the threads over the last week or so, the person to whom you speak said she was raped and was not given that opportunity.

 

[Vanquish]

But the innocent life inside you didn't rape you. It was an innocent...just like you were.

You dont get to abort just because you were raped. I know it had to be painful emotionally and physically. I recently represented a woman who was raped by a police officer. She'll never be the same.

But the child didn't deserve to die.