Why are we so afraid to admit the obvious?

[Dogmaphobe]

When I was young, I always felt like an outsider. I could never understand why so may kids did things just because other kids did things. As I grew older, I began to think that the real duality of human nature involved the tension between self awareness and the herd instinct. It seems to me that the entire history of mankind involves the rare free thinker being persecuted by the mob, and that our ability to think as an individual and our need for confirmation by the herd must be hardwired in us to varying degrees. At one end, you have the iconoclasts, heretics and eccentrics, and at the other end, you have the fundamentalists and authoritarians.

Our very political system encourages a Manichaean world view, as we are conditioned to see the world in binary. It is either/or with this polarizing political set up, and so when you combine people's natural inclination towards the herd instinct with a political system built upon opposition, then the polemics and utter vapidness of conformist rhetoric seems inevitable.

I don't see the situation in terms of ideology because the foot soldiers for their side don't have one -- not in terms of a set of principles they follow. All they have is the fear of being ostracized by their peers.

 

[buckeye45_73]

Trying to talk sense into either side on this issue is totally pointless Moonglow.
Kids on the playground, sniveling "He started it!"
Mac's got a good question. WHY? Are we responsible adults or not?

I think it's a symptom of being controlled by an ideology. It makes people terrified to give an inch.

Additionally, I think it's possible that an ideologue really doesn't see most, if not all, the sins of their side. That's another symptom: Myopia. So when they ask for examples of what should be screamingly obvious, it may be that they really don't know what you're talking about.

That's how powerful this stuff is.
.

I disagree, the problem with saying it's both sides is your trivializing it. The problem is the left is really really bad on this issue.
Remember after the baseball field a Sanders supporter shot republicans and Pelosi said do not make a political issue of this. and the republicans didn't. But now with this bomber I don't see her saying that....
Violence does happen, but it's much much more on the left and the left does not condemn their side ever......they always try to twist it the right and usually it's some crazy lefty that does it....not in all but most cases. Then the media drops it. If this guy had been a Clinton supporter, the media would have immediately dropped it. That's a really really bad problem.
We need people to condemn violence, stop blaming factions....but we also need the left to stop PROMOTING it.....the right does not promote it....I have never once heard Trump, or McConnell encourage supporters to harass anyone

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Too many believe the lie that we must choose between these two:

When we have this:

 

[candycorn]

Given the spate of recent violence, the board is understandably abuzz with threads and comments about who is to "blame". And of course, each end is essentially putting 100% of the blame on the other end. Each end is laying out a long list of examples of violence, rhetoric and incitement by the other end.

Guess what? They're both right. Facts are facts.

I have a great deal of respect for the power of ideology. It can make people say and do insane things. It can absolutely blind a person to the obvious. But is it so strong that we'd rather see this country burn down than challenge our own tribe to stop the madness?

When the hate is flowing from both ends like water from a fire hose, does it really matter which end is "worse"?

What is so terrifying about just admitting the obvious?
.

How have you challenged your tribe?

 

[Moonglow]

Given the spate of recent violence, the board is understandably abuzz with threads and comments about who is to "blame". And of course, each end is essentially putting 100% of the blame on the other end. Each end is laying out a long list of examples of violence, rhetoric and incitement by the other end.

Guess what? They're both right. Facts are facts.

I have a great deal of respect for the power of ideology. It can make people say and do insane things. It can absolutely blind a person to the obvious. But is it so strong that we'd rather see this country burn down than challenge our own tribe to stop the madness?

When the hate is flowing from both ends like water from a fire hose, does it really matter which end is "worse"?

What is so terrifying about just admitting the obvious?
.

Because one side is practicing violence and only condemns one side.....the other side (mine) condemns violence from anyone and does not promote it. so to fix the problem, you need to stop promoting violence and start condemning anyone who does it.....it's pretty clear who needs to do that (not my side, they already do that)

Both sides promote violence, so you have failed to see the truth.

No both sides do not. Give me an example of a credible right winger promoting that

It has been posted so many times in so many threads I think it would be a waste of time to posted it once again to those that prefer to be blind on purpose.

 

[buckeye45_73]

Given the spate of recent violence, the board is understandably abuzz with threads and comments about who is to "blame". And of course, each end is essentially putting 100% of the blame on the other end. Each end is laying out a long list of examples of violence, rhetoric and incitement by the other end.

Guess what? They're both right. Facts are facts.

I have a great deal of respect for the power of ideology. It can make people say and do insane things. It can absolutely blind a person to the obvious. But is it so strong that we'd rather see this country burn down than challenge our own tribe to stop the madness?

When the hate is flowing from both ends like water from a fire hose, does it really matter which end is "worse"?

What is so terrifying about just admitting the obvious?
.

Because one side is practicing violence and only condemns one side.....the other side (mine) condemns violence from anyone and does not promote it. so to fix the problem, you need to stop promoting violence and start condemning anyone who does it.....it's pretty clear who needs to do that (not my side, they already do that)

Both sides promote violence, so you have failed to see the truth.

No both sides do not. Give me an example of a credible right winger promoting that

It has been posted so many times in so many threads I think it would be a waste of time to posted it once again to those that prefer to be blind on purpose.

There aren't any.

 

[DOTR]

Trying to talk sense into either side on this issue is totally pointless Moonglow.
Kids on the playground, sniveling "He started it!"
Mac's got a good question. WHY? Are we responsible adults or not?

I think it's a symptom of being controlled by an ideology. It makes people terrified to give an inch.

Additionally, I think it's possible that an ideologue really doesn't see most, if not all, the sins of their side. That's another symptom: Myopia. So when they ask for examples of what should be screamingly obvious, it may be that they really don't know what you're talking about.

That's how powerful this stuff is.
.

Your argument is fallacious. It assumes no right and wrong.

 

[candycorn]

Given the spate of recent violence, the board is understandably abuzz with threads and comments about who is to "blame". And of course, each end is essentially putting 100% of the blame on the other end. Each end is laying out a long list of examples of violence, rhetoric and incitement by the other end.

Guess what? They're both right. Facts are facts.

I have a great deal of respect for the power of ideology. It can make people say and do insane things. It can absolutely blind a person to the obvious. But is it so strong that we'd rather see this country burn down than challenge our own tribe to stop the madness?

When the hate is flowing from both ends like water from a fire hose, does it really matter which end is "worse"?

What is so terrifying about just admitting the obvious?
.

A Trump supporter Sent packages through the mail that contained bombs. Another idiot was so enraged by the hysteria preached by the blob about the migrants heading northward that he shot a dozen people in Pittsburgh.

No dumbass. Both sides aren’t right.

It was a leftie who shot up the Republican baseball team. It wasn't a right winger that sent ricin to Pres Trump. In both of the "tribes" are violent extremists. Denying that won't help. I would never have called anyone so much as an "idiot" before I came here, but I've been insulted so much I'll say a lot worse than that, at times. You're not like that, so I'm not pointing this at you personally, but saying the left doesn't do it--is not accurate.

That’s true. Liberalism. Think of it like California. Meteorologicaly, The climate there is fantastic. You have rainy days and even some snow. But most of the time... fantastic climate. The incidents you speak of are the bad weather days. They happen from time to time but the norm is fantastic.

Now consider Consevatism. Constant pining for civil war, gunning down migrants calling them an invading army, a President that preaches hate, posters here who have avatars pointing a gun at the camera, constant chants of locking up your political enemies, ripping kids from their parents as a “deterrent”. I would submit that the climate of the GOP is one where most days are beautiful but the bad weather days are much more frequent.

Comparing the violence of the hard right and hard left is like comparing Cancer to a head cold. Tim Mcveigh, Eric Rudolph, and now this Trump worshiper. Just drops of water in an endless stream.

 

[OldLady]

Trying to talk sense into either side on this issue is totally pointless Moonglow.
Kids on the playground, sniveling "He started it!"
Mac's got a good question. WHY? Are we responsible adults or not?

I think it's a symptom of being controlled by an ideology. It makes people terrified to give an inch.

Additionally, I think it's possible that an ideologue really doesn't see most, if not all, the sins of their side. That's another symptom: Myopia. So when they ask for examples of what should be screamingly obvious, it may be that they really don't know what you're talking about.

That's how powerful this stuff is.
.

Interesting. And I suppose on a political board, you will find real ideologues. I don't know about the right wingers, but some of the Democrat/lefties here are definitely not "seeing it."

 

[candycorn]

Given the spate of recent violence, the board is understandably abuzz with threads and comments about who is to "blame". And of course, each end is essentially putting 100% of the blame on the other end. Each end is laying out a long list of examples of violence, rhetoric and incitement by the other end.

Guess what? They're both right. Facts are facts.

I have a great deal of respect for the power of ideology. It can make people say and do insane things. It can absolutely blind a person to the obvious. But is it so strong that we'd rather see this country burn down than challenge our own tribe to stop the madness?

When the hate is flowing from both ends like water from a fire hose, does it really matter which end is "worse"?

What is so terrifying about just admitting the obvious?
.

A Trump supporter Sent packages through the mail that contained bombs. Another idiot was so enraged by the hysteria preached by the blob about the migrants heading northward that he shot a dozen people in Pittsburgh.

No dumbass. Both sides aren’t right.

No, they just shoot congressmen, send poison in the mail and harass the fuck out of people.....oh and they try and storm buildings like a ......what's that called......oh.... a MOB.

They should have had better security. That is what Trump recommends to murder victims. Can’t we use that for congressional shootings?

No valid comparison can be drawn between Trump’s constant hate monger and some dingbats with some screws loose

 

[candycorn]

Given the spate of recent violence, the board is understandably abuzz with threads and comments about who is to "blame". And of course, each end is essentially putting 100% of the blame on the other end. Each end is laying out a long list of examples of violence, rhetoric and incitement by the other end.

Guess what? They're both right. Facts are facts.

I have a great deal of respect for the power of ideology. It can make people say and do insane things. It can absolutely blind a person to the obvious. But is it so strong that we'd rather see this country burn down than challenge our own tribe to stop the madness?

When the hate is flowing from both ends like water from a fire hose, does it really matter which end is "worse"?

What is so terrifying about just admitting the obvious?
.

How have you challenged your tribe?

Well Mac1958?

 

[BluesLegend]

Now consider Consevatism. Constant pining for civil war, gunning down migrants calling them an invading army, a President that preaches hate, posters here who have avatars pointing a gun at the camera, constant chants of locking up your political enemies, ripping kids from their parents as a “deterrent”. I would submit that the climate of the GOP is one where most days are beautiful but the bad weather days are much more frequent.

We are at war with the lying traitorous left. No compromise, no reaching across the isle the left must be defeated not bargained with. So far so good we control the House, Senate, White House and SCOTUS.

 

[candycorn]

Given the spate of recent violence, the board is understandably abuzz with threads and comments about who is to "blame". And of course, each end is essentially putting 100% of the blame on the other end. Each end is laying out a long list of examples of violence, rhetoric and incitement by the other end.

Guess what? They're both right. Facts are facts.

I have a great deal of respect for the power of ideology. It can make people say and do insane things. It can absolutely blind a person to the obvious. But is it so strong that we'd rather see this country burn down than challenge our own tribe to stop the madness?

When the hate is flowing from both ends like water from a fire hose, does it really matter which end is "worse"?

What is so terrifying about just admitting the obvious?
.

A Trump supporter Sent packages through the mail that contained bombs. Another idiot was so enraged by the hysteria preached by the blob about the migrants heading northward that he shot a dozen people in Pittsburgh.

No dumbass. Both sides aren’t right.

It was a leftie who shot up the Republican baseball team. It wasn't a right winger that sent ricin to Pres Trump. In both of the "tribes" are violent extremists. Denying that won't help. I would never have called anyone so much as an "idiot" before I came here, but I've been insulted so much I'll say a lot worse than that, at times. You're not like that, so I'm not pointing this at you personally, but saying the left doesn't do it--is not accurate.

The left leads it. They resort to violence when they lose an election which is inexcusable. But the real elephant in the room is that the left has a stranglehold on the media, on corporate power and on money flows. When people find they are stymied in their political voice and their votes are ignored I do expect the result to be violence. What other choice is there?
This is the "populism" the worlds elites spend so much time denouncing. Its the rage of people who played by the rules and still have no voice.

You havent seen it yet. A nut sending fake bombs to liberals isnt it. Its just an excuse for them to crack down. Its going to be nasty when it comes. But it wont be amiss.

At least you guys are no longer playing the conspiracy card. That was fun-eee

 

[Mac1958]

Trying to talk sense into either side on this issue is totally pointless Moonglow.
Kids on the playground, sniveling "He started it!"
Mac's got a good question. WHY? Are we responsible adults or not?

I think it's a symptom of being controlled by an ideology. It makes people terrified to give an inch.

Additionally, I think it's possible that an ideologue really doesn't see most, if not all, the sins of their side. That's another symptom: Myopia. So when they ask for examples of what should be screamingly obvious, it may be that they really don't know what you're talking about.

That's how powerful this stuff is.
.

Interesting. And I suppose on a political board, you will find real ideologues. I don't know about the right wingers, but some of the Democrat/lefties here are definitely not "seeing it."

Well, the right wingers will deny that anything has been done or said on their side that has contributed to this.

Anything.

They appear to be serious, sincere. Hence my point.
.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

Given the spate of recent violence, the board is understandably abuzz with threads and comments about who is to "blame". And of course, each end is essentially putting 100% of the blame on the other end. Each end is laying out a long list of examples of violence, rhetoric and incitement by the other end.

Guess what? They're both right. Facts are facts.

I have a great deal of respect for the power of ideology. It can make people say and do insane things. It can absolutely blind a person to the obvious. But is it so strong that we'd rather see this country burn down than challenge our own tribe to stop the madness?

When the hate is flowing from both ends like water from a fire hose, does it really matter which end is "worse"?

What is so terrifying about just admitting the obvious?
.

A Trump supporter Sent packages through the mail that contained bombs. Another idiot was so enraged by the hysteria preached by the blob about the migrants heading northward that he shot a dozen people in Pittsburgh.

No dumbass. Both sides aren’t right.

Not Trump's fault. Same as it was not Bernie's fault when his supporter tried to kill Republicans. Grow up, loser.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

Trying to talk sense into either side on this issue is totally pointless Moonglow.
Kids on the playground, sniveling "He started it!"
Mac's got a good question. WHY? Are we responsible adults or not?

I think it's a symptom of being controlled by an ideology. It makes people terrified to give an inch.

Additionally, I think it's possible that an ideologue really doesn't see most, if not all, the sins of their side. That's another symptom: Myopia. So when they ask for examples of what should be screamingly obvious, it may be that they really don't know what you're talking about.

That's how powerful this stuff is.
.

Interesting. And I suppose on a political board, you will find real ideologues. I don't know about the right wingers, but some of the Democrat/lefties here are definitely not "seeing it."

Well, the right wingers will deny that anything has been done or said on their side that has contributed to this.

Anything.

They appear to be serious, sincere. Hence my point.
.

Rhetoric has always been there. Crazy people have always been there. Two are not necessarily equated. The Left has advocated for violence just as much as the GOP if not moreso.

 

[candycorn]

Given the spate of recent violence, the board is understandably abuzz with threads and comments about who is to "blame". And of course, each end is essentially putting 100% of the blame on the other end. Each end is laying out a long list of examples of violence, rhetoric and incitement by the other end.

Guess what? They're both right. Facts are facts.

I have a great deal of respect for the power of ideology. It can make people say and do insane things. It can absolutely blind a person to the obvious. But is it so strong that we'd rather see this country burn down than challenge our own tribe to stop the madness?

When the hate is flowing from both ends like water from a fire hose, does it really matter which end is "worse"?

What is so terrifying about just admitting the obvious?
.

A Trump supporter Sent packages through the mail that contained bombs. Another idiot was so enraged by the hysteria preached by the blob about the migrants heading northward that he shot a dozen people in Pittsburgh.

No dumbass. Both sides aren’t right.

Not Trump's fault. Same as it was not Bernie's fault when his supporter tried to kill Republicans. Grow up, loser.

Cite Bernie’s speeches where he incited violence.

 

[Mac1958]

Trying to talk sense into either side on this issue is totally pointless Moonglow.
Kids on the playground, sniveling "He started it!"
Mac's got a good question. WHY? Are we responsible adults or not?

I think it's a symptom of being controlled by an ideology. It makes people terrified to give an inch.

Additionally, I think it's possible that an ideologue really doesn't see most, if not all, the sins of their side. That's another symptom: Myopia. So when they ask for examples of what should be screamingly obvious, it may be that they really don't know what you're talking about.

That's how powerful this stuff is.
.

Interesting. And I suppose on a political board, you will find real ideologues. I don't know about the right wingers, but some of the Democrat/lefties here are definitely not "seeing it."

Well, the right wingers will deny that anything has been done or said on their side that has contributed to this.

Anything.

They appear to be serious, sincere. Hence my point.
.

Rhetoric has always been there. Crazy people have always been there. Two are not necessarily equated. The Left has advocated for violence just as much as the GOP if not moreso.

Yes, both have. And when it's so prevalent, which side is worse is essentially irrelevant. It all feeds into the momentum.
.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

Given the spate of recent violence, the board is understandably abuzz with threads and comments about who is to "blame". And of course, each end is essentially putting 100% of the blame on the other end. Each end is laying out a long list of examples of violence, rhetoric and incitement by the other end.

Guess what? They're both right. Facts are facts.

I have a great deal of respect for the power of ideology. It can make people say and do insane things. It can absolutely blind a person to the obvious. But is it so strong that we'd rather see this country burn down than challenge our own tribe to stop the madness?

When the hate is flowing from both ends like water from a fire hose, does it really matter which end is "worse"?

What is so terrifying about just admitting the obvious?
.

A Trump supporter Sent packages through the mail that contained bombs. Another idiot was so enraged by the hysteria preached by the blob about the migrants heading northward that he shot a dozen people in Pittsburgh.

No dumbass. Both sides aren’t right.

Not Trump's fault. Same as it was not Bernie's fault when his supporter tried to kill Republicans. Grow up, loser.

Cite Bernie’s speeches where he incited violence.

Are you kidding? At every GOP rally his supporters were the violent ones. Heck his whole rhetoric is "revolution". You know many revolutions w/o violence? You're obviously trolling now.

 

[candycorn]

Trying to talk sense into either side on this issue is totally pointless Moonglow.
Kids on the playground, sniveling "He started it!"
Mac's got a good question. WHY? Are we responsible adults or not?

I think it's a symptom of being controlled by an ideology. It makes people terrified to give an inch.

Additionally, I think it's possible that an ideologue really doesn't see most, if not all, the sins of their side. That's another symptom: Myopia. So when they ask for examples of what should be screamingly obvious, it may be that they really don't know what you're talking about.

That's how powerful this stuff is.
.

Interesting. And I suppose on a political board, you will find real ideologues. I don't know about the right wingers, but some of the Democrat/lefties here are definitely not "seeing it."

Well, the right wingers will deny that anything has been done or said on their side that has contributed to this.

Anything.

They appear to be serious, sincere. Hence my point.
.

Rhetoric has always been there. Crazy people have always been there. Two are not necessarily equated. The Left has advocated for violence just as much as the GOP if not moreso.

Factually incorrect. I seem to have missed any Dem Presidential Nominee volunteering to pay the legal bills for those committing assault at their rallies.

Your mileage may vary